Obama is losing the independent vote.

[quote name='Msut77']There should be "" marks around independent when politico and ruined use the word.[/QUOTE]

why would he need four apostrophes
 
[quote name='camoor']It's all over, Obama has lost 2012. Also, PS3 is calling it quits due to last months sales numbers.[/QUOTE]

Despite the polls, Obama has a much better chance of winning 2012 than PS3 pulling out of last place ;)
 
I like how universal healthcare is a "far left initiative" in America, yet to the rest of the world it is "common sense." Woo boy.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']I like how universal healthcare is a "far left initiative" in America, yet to the rest of the world it is "common sense." Woo boy.[/QUOTE]

Many other areas of the world have governments that lean far left, Europe as an obvious example. Just because the people in those areas are now essentially forced into that type of system (i.e. "common sense") does not mean America has to go down the same road, nor does it mean that Universal Healthcare would be a good thing for the country.

Take a look at the slow train wreck that is the State of California if you want a model of how excessive government intervention, programs (health or otherwise), and taxes can cause a society to crash.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']LA just spent $1.4 million on Michael Jackson's funeral. Their main problem is a priority issue.[/QUOTE]

So if you realize the government has serious priority issues, why exactly would you want them in charge of your healthcare?
 
If we're the best nation in the world, we should be able to do what plenty of other countries can.

I am completely against the autobailout and the others like it, don't misunderstand me. I said from the start that the billions that went to the big three should have gone to building a better healthcare system because, in 10 years, that's where jobs will be. I just think that we can be a "moderate" country and still have government do something.
 
California's problems stem back the 70's when they instituted their Proposition system allowing public votes on nearly any issue. It has bogged down their government to such a degree that making any change is nearly impossible. There are too many restraints and obsolete laws that were hastily voted in twenty years ago that now stop them from doing nearly anything.

California has some of the lowest property taxes in the union, albeit the second highest sales tax.

The US is the last major western country without any sort of public healthcare system. The current plan is an opt in plan that you can either take or stick with your private insurance. No one is forcing anyone onto a plan they don't want.

For me the argument has always been philosophic: What is the driving force of the insurance industry? Is it to provide the best care available? No. It's to make a profit for it's share holders. What is the driving force of something like Medicare? To make oodles of cash for the Government? No, it's to provide a service.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']If we're the best nation in the world, we should be able to do what plenty of other countries can.[/quote]

Of course we can do it. But why would we want to?

I am completely against the autobailout and the others like it, don't misunderstand me. I said from the start that the billions that went to the big three should have gone to building a better healthcare system because, in 10 years, that's where jobs will be. I just think that we can be a "moderate" country and still have government do something.
Click to expand...

Big two, remember Ford didn't take the bailout money and is actually doing reasonably well + putting out solid cars.

But, auto bailouts aside, how many things has the government been able to efficiently address in a successful manner? Why are so many government programs going bankrupt? Why are so many trillions spent by the government for so little useful gain? Why would you want these same people that waste so much money and get so little done making decisions about your personal healthcare?
 
[quote name='Ruined']Of course we can do it. But why would we want to?[/quote]

Because 15% of America has no health insurance and can't see a doctor when they get sick? And that often these people who have to pay $150 to see a doctor are the lowest income people?

But, auto bailouts aside, how many things has the government been able to efficiently address in a successful manner?
Click to expand...

The Military.
 
[quote name='Cheese']The US is the last major western country without any sort of public healthcare system. The current plan is an opt in plan that you can either take or stick with your private insurance. No one is forcing anyone onto a plan they don't want. [/quote]

But it is forcing some people to pay for healthcare twice. One charge for their own healthcare, then a second charge for unused public healthcare... Why should people be forced to give even more hard-earned money than they already do away for something they don't even want or use?

Also, how slippery is the slope? What if public healthcare goes bankrupt like many other government progarms and the fee/tax/etc for it - even for people that don't use or want it - becomes so large that private healthcare becomes noncompetitive/too expensive to addon? If it ever goes to public healthcare only, then you are stuck with whatever the government thinks is best for you with no other option - and that is a very scary place to be!

For me the argument has always been philosophic: What is the driving force of the insurance industry? Is it to provide the best care available? No. It's to make a profit for it's share holders.
Click to expand...

If an insurance company provides inferior care to another insurance company, they lose business and hence lose profit. Thus, it is in their best interest to provide both efficient and high quality care in order to retain business.

What is the driving force of something like Medicare? To make oodles of cash for the Government? No, it's to provide a service.
Click to expand...

That is debatable. Medicaid provides a service, but it does so by increasing the size and power of government. Those new government regulation, social work, and administration jobs must be filled by people - thus creating more government programs is actually "profitting" government in a way. Universal healthcare will do the same.

Because 15% of America has no health insurance and can't see a doctor when they get sick? And that often these people who have to pay $150 to see a doctor are the lowest income people?
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Then 15% of Americans need to learn how to get themselves to their local social services agency and apply for Medicaid/Medicare/etc. The programs are already there, they just need to be used.

The Military
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...which is largely funded and favored by the gov't party that for the most part opposes Universal Healthcare.
 
[quote name='Cheese']Because 15% of America has no health insurance and can't see a doctor when they get sick? And that often these people who have to pay $150 to see a doctor are the lowest income people?



The Military.[/QUOTE]
Well we socialized the Fire Departments, Police, Libraries and the Post Office as well. By in large most of those work out pretty well.
 
Since I know you'll be back here Ruined, I would love to see your take on this post.

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6044619&postcount=25

[quote name='Ruined']...which is largely funded and favored by the gov't party that for the most part opposes Universal Healthcare.[/QUOTE]
How exactly do you support that statement? That's the kind of statement that always rubbed me the wrong way. I hated the way people politicized my military service as if their pretending to support me did me some kind of favor. Of course, they'd never work hard to make sure that military hospitals were the best, that the barracks I lived in weren't condemned (they were), etc... yet it always was connected to how big the gun contracts were. Didn't you feel the same way while you were serving?
 
[quote name='rabbitt']I like how universal healthcare is a "far left initiative" in America, yet to the rest of the world it is "common sense." Woo boy.[/QUOTE]


And polls have shown that most americans want universal health care.
 
Nice to see someone who's actually served feel the same way I feel about "Supporting The Troops"
 
[quote name='homeland']And polls have shown that most americans want universal health care.[/QUOTE]

Do you think those people know what it will entail though? I best most of those think their health care plan (if they have one) will be unaffected, which won't be the case. And the people that don't have it think they'll get something good, which they won't.
 
You mean the military is effective?

Because from what I've seen/read about Iraq, Afghanistan, from the mere continued existence of Osama Bin Laden, combined with our own unsecured borders, I'm not seeing this "effective military".

And to those who have served, please take this not as a personal attack - but, quite frankly, the way our government uses and abuses our military is far out of whack with the way it should be used.
 
The military is plenty effective. It's the Generals and the other asshats at the top who need to get a fucking clue.
 
[quote name='SpeedyG']The military is plenty effective. It's the Generals and the other asshats at the top who need to get a fucking clue.[/QUOTE]

Which is my major point of view - return the power to govern to the states and local governments. We need to cut off the asshats at the top. ;)
 
[quote name='homeland']And polls have shown that most americans want universal health care.[/QUOTE]

That's a ridiculous question to ask in a poll. How many people out there really understand what "universal" health care really means, and the impact it will have. Most people would assume that "Universal" means Free, and the media and the politicians have yet you educate the public that that is not the case at all.

I'm not taking a side on the health care debate, just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of framing a question in such a way.
 
They're easier to overthrow. ;)

Honestly, they're easier to vote out. My town's last election for Mayor - Port 681, Brown 574, Blake 481, Gott 204. Also, it's far more reasonable to expect someone to run for local office rather than national office. I doubt it cost any one of those four even 1% of 1% of what it cost Obama and McCain to run. Plus, local officials know more about what the local community needs than Washington DC.
 
People would take a "free" car or house if you offered it to them also, so a poll doesn't mean that it's the best thing to do or the right thing to do.
 
[quote name='Cheese']The Military.[/QUOTE]

Welcome back. Try Googling the phrase "military efficiency" along with the word "oxymoron." It's famous, even. The military is successful, yes, but at an unbelievable cost. "Efficient" is not a word I would associate with it at all, even if they do get the job done.
 
[quote name='SpeedyG']Well we socialized the Fire Departments, Police, Libraries and the Post Office as well. By in large most of those work out pretty well.[/QUOTE]


commie, stop using common sense to win an argument
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']commie, stop using common sense to win an argument[/QUOTE]

I'd hardly call that common sense. Libraries are losing funding all over the country - wasn't it the state of Ohio that was looking at closing them down state-wide? And the Postal Service... wow - aren't they looking at cutting another day of delivery because they're losing so much money? If you need to ship something, and you absolutely have to have it there - do you honestly use USPS?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I'd hardly call that common sense. Libraries are losing funding all over the country - wasn't it the state of Ohio that was looking at closing them down state-wide? And the Postal Service... wow - aren't they looking at cutting another day of delivery because they're losing so much money? If you need to ship something, and you absolutely have to have it there - do you honestly use USPS?[/QUOTE]

Because no one can name a single private entity losing money or doing poorly today.

At all.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Because no one can name a single private entity losing money or doing poorly today.

At all.[/QUOTE]

But name one that's "losing money or doing poorly today" that is also "working out pretty well."
 
[quote name='UncleBob']But name one that's "losing money or doing poorly today" that is also "working out pretty well."[/QUOTE]

You missed the entire point didn't you?
 
[quote name='Msut77']You missed the entire point didn't you?[/QUOTE]

No, I think you're missing his point. Yes, we do have socialized libraries, police, and postal service (Although the USPS is a privately run entity protected by the government), but they have all been proven to be completely inefficiant when compared to their private sector counterparts.

If there's a new book out that you want to read, do you go to the library to get it? No, because the library probably doesn't have money for new books to begin with, and even if they do get it, they'll only get one copy two months after it's release, and you'll have to wait six months after that because it'll constantly be checked out. Instead, you'll just go to Borders and just buy the book and then resell it afterwards through Amazon.

Ever try and hire police security? It's outrageously expensive, in the neighborhood of 50 dollars an hour, and since the cops are union, they aren't going to give a shit anyways, and will provide lackluster service compared to the private security you can get for 20 bucks an hours and hires ex-marines.

Don't even get me started on the Post Office
 
[quote name='UncleBob']
Because from what I've seen/read about Iraq, Afghanistan, from the mere continued existence of Osama Bin Laden, combined with our own unsecured borders, I'm not seeing this "effective military POLICIES".
[/QUOTE]

Imo, the American people can no longer stomach effective military policy.

You can have all the best tools in the world to build a house, but if you insist on only using one hand, only working at night with sunglasses on, and using a hand crank to generate power for your tools, it doesn't really matter - your ability to build a house is going to be pretty shitty, and the house will likely turn out shitty.
 
[quote name='spmahn']How many people out there really understand what "universal" health care really means[/quote]

Probably a higher percentage than certain posters in healthcare related threads.

but they have all been proven to be completely inefficient when compared to their private sector counterparts.
Click to expand...

No.

If there's a new book out that you want to read, do you go to the library to get it?
Click to expand...

Yes, because I don't mind waiting a few days or weeks.

Also it is not as if getting new books fast is the only criteria libraries can or should be judged by.

I cannot believe that has to be pointed out.
 
Must: Where does Obama, President of the United States of America and grand-champion of all things government... Where does he send his children to be educated?
 
[quote name='SpeedyG']Well we socialized the Fire Departments, Police, Libraries and the Post Office as well. By in large most of those work out pretty well.[/QUOTE]

The Post Office is losing money hand over fist. They're talking about closing 10% of all branches in the next couple years. I think it's a good move but not all government agencies are the model of efficiency.

On the other hand, the public library system is an example of money well spent.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Must: Where does Obama, President of the United States of America and grand-champion of all things government... Where does he send his children to be educated?[/QUOTE]

Not to a DC public school.
 
Obama's numbers plummet, biggest shift from moderates:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-07-20-obama-poll-economy_N.htm?poe=HFMostPopular

[quote name='USA Today']WASHINGTON — Qualms about President Obama's stewardship of the economy are growing, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds, as Americans become more pessimistic about when they predict the recession will end.
At six months in office, Obama's 55% approval rating puts him 10th among the 12 post-World War II presidents at this point in their tenures. When he took office, he ranked seventh.

...

* By 49%-47%, those surveyed disapprove of how he is handling the economy, a turnaround from his 55%-42% approval in May. The steepest drop came from conservative and moderate Democrats.

* By 50%-44%, they disapprove of how he is handling health care policy.

* A 59% majority say his proposals call for too much government spending and 52% say they call for too much expansion of government power.

* Expectations of the economy's turnaround are souring a bit. In February, the average prediction for a recovery was 4.1 years; now it's 5.5 years.

• The administration's stimulus package isn't seen as a benefit by most whether viewed in the short term or the long term, in how it will impact the country or individuals. Only a third think it will help their own family's finances in the long run.[/quote]
 
5.5 years is an incredibly high expectation. This debt has been in the making for about 6 times that long.
 
[quote name='HowStern']5.5 years is an incredibly high expectation. This debt has been in the making for about 6 times that long.[/QUOTE]

its a usa today poll, what did you expect?
 
AP poll seems to have found the same:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090721/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_ap_poll

[quote name='AP']Perhaps most troubling for Obama may be where he is losing ground. His approval rating was down 9 points among Americans overall but 20 percent among independents. Similarly, the increase in those who think the country is headed in the wrong direction came mostly from independents and Democrats.

Dissatisfaction among independents grew disproportionately on Obama's handling of a range of issues, including the economy, taxes, unemployment, the environment and more.[/quote]
 
still, losing the independent support is not the same as losing the independent vote. just because this segment is unhappy with obama doesnt mean they are going to flock to a GOP candidate come 2012.
 
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