Obama lies again- Signing Statements

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Person: "When congress offers you a bill, do you promise not to use presidential signing statements to get your way?"
Obama: "Yes"
Obama Says He Can Ignore Some Parts of Spending Bill

WASHINGTON — President Obama on Wednesday issued his first signing statement, reserving a right to bypass dozens of provisions in a $410 billion government spending bill even as he signed it into law.
In the statement — directions to executive-branch officials about how to carry out the legislation — Mr. Obama instructed them to view most of the disputed provisions as merely advisory and nonbinding, saying they were unconstitutional intrusions on his own powers.
Mr. Obama’s instructions followed by two days his order to government officials that they not rely on any of President George W. Bush’s provision-bypassing signing statements without first consulting Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. In that order, Mr. Obama said he would continue the practice of issuing signing statements, though “with caution and restraint, based only on interpretations of the Constitution that are well founded.”
One of the budget bill’s provisions that Mr. Obama said he could circumvent concerns United Nations peacekeeping missions. It says money may not be spent on any such mission if it entails putting United States troops under a foreign commander, unless Mr. Obama’s military advisers so recommend.
“This provision,” Mr. Obama wrote, “raises constitutional concerns by constraining my choice of particular persons to perform specific command functions in military missions, by conditioning the exercise of my authority as commander in chief on the recommendations of subordinates within the military chain of command, and by constraining my diplomatic negotiating authority.”
He also raised concerns about a section that establishes whistle-blower protections for federal employees who give information to Congress.
“I do not interpret this provision,” he wrote, “to detract from my authority to direct the heads of executive departments to supervise, control and correct employees’ communications with the Congress in cases where such communications would be unlawful or would reveal information that is properly privileged or otherwise confidential.”......................
.............Presidents began using signing statements in the 19th century, but the practice became controversial under Mr. Bush, who challenged more legislative provisions than all previous presidents combined.
Many of Mr. Bush’s signing statements made arguments similar to those made Wednesday by Mr. Obama. But Mr. Bush invoked particularly contentious claims of executive authority, as when he declared that a ban on torture violated his powers as commander in chief.
The Bush administration defended its use of signing statements as lawful and appropriate. The American Bar Association, on the other hand, condemned them as “contrary to the rule of law and our constitutional separation of powers,” and called on presidents to stop using them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/us/politics/12signing.html?_r=1
Obama Signs Financial Bill, Creating Investigative Panel

By Kate Phillips President Obama on Wednesday signed legislation aimed at curbing financial fraud in the mortgage and other industries, including a provision that created an independent panel to investigate the root causes of the nation’s economic downturn.
Congressional lawmakers from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to prominent Democratic senators, with significant Republican support, had called for creation of a commission modeled after the Sept. 11 panel and a Depression-era set of financial hearings called the Pecora commission.
This one would have subpoena power; Democratic congressional leaders would choose six members and Republican leaders four commissioners, but its work would be independent of Congress.
But after signing the bill, the White House issued what is called a signing statement by Mr. Obama, which includes this advisory to agencies about the financial panel’s potential reach:
Section 5(d) of the Act requires every department, agency, bureau, board, commission, office, independent establishment, or instrumentality of the United States to furnish to the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission, a legislative entity, any information related to any Commission inquiry. As my administration communicated to the Congress during the legislative process, the executive branch will construe this subsection of the bill not to abrogate any constitutional privilege.
In other words, the president is reserving the right to claim executive privilege if the commission seeks information or documents that the White House considers to be beyond the bounds of public information and/or privileged communications and negotiations within the executive branch.
The Obama administration hasn’t been shy in using signing statements for recent pieces of legislation like the omnibus public lands bill. In that case, however, the president directly challenged a portion of the law.
Signing statements have been used by other presidents, but the practice became highly controversial under former President George W. Bush, who advanced disputed theories of executive power through their issuance and challenged more provisions than his predecessors had.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/signing-statements/?scp=3&sq=signing statement&st=Search
President Obama issued another signing statement on Friday, asserting that he has the constitutional power to disregard five sections of a supplemental appropriations bill even as he signed it into law.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/a-bill-signing-with-reservations/
President Obama on Monday issued a signing statement claiming that he can bypass a law that limits his power to appoint members to a government commission that manages historical and economic issues along the Erie Canal.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/30/obama-issues-signing-statement-with-public-lands-bill/

I can't believe this guy. He does the exact opposite of what he says.
More on signing statements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signing_statement_(United_States)
 
Damn it must suck to be the president. You can't get away with anything without being called out on it. I bet he could get tons of chicks though which is good... but he's married so that's a waste. Too bad.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']I can't believe this guy. He does the exact opposite of what he says.[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

It's funny because you're naive.
 
Hopefully after these 4 tough years with Barack "I really just wanted to be a celebrity" Obama, we'll learn to get on the Ron Paul train.
 
[quote name='Magehart']:rofl:

It's funny because you're naive.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm not. I was though. I supported Obama until he got in and started lying on his first days in office. Then, I realized that both parties are frauds, and started to look past the two party system. I just said that to try to help some of those out there realize that Obama isn't bringing change, all he does is say one thing and do the other.
 
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[quote name='fullmetalfan720']No, I'm not. I was though. I supported Obama until he got in and started lying on his first days in office. Then, I realized that both parties are frauds, and started to support people like Ron Paul, and Jesse Ventura. I just said that to try to help some of those out there realize that Obama isn't bringing change, all he does is say one thing and do the other.[/QUOTE]

While I don't support Paul or Ventura, I totally agree that both parties are full of shit. That should be plain by now, even to those who had forgotten what it was like to have the Democrats in power since it was many moons ago for the young 'uns.

Here's another article you should look at, a well-crafted one, entitled "Obama's Newspeak." I was going to post it on its own in a new thread, but it seems to fit here because it also talks about signing statements, the things the executive branch uses to try to weasel out of inconvenient provisions of laws.

http://www.boston.com/ae/media/articles/2009/07/10/recycling_rubbish_at_the_white_house/
 
[quote name='elprincipe']While I don't support Paul or Ventura, I totally agree that both parties are full of shit. That should be plain by now, even to those who had forgotten what it was like to have the Democrats in power since it was many moons ago for the young 'uns.

Here's another article you should look at, a well-crafted one, entitled "Obama's Newspeak." I was going to post it on its own in a new thread, but it seems to fit here because it also talks about signing statements, the things the executive branch uses to try to weasel out of inconvenient provisions of laws.

http://www.boston.com/ae/media/articles/2009/07/10/recycling_rubbish_at_the_white_house/[/QUOTE]

That's a great article. Very true.
 
Honestly, what's the matter with you people? Democrats are in control now so everything is gonna be okay. The Green Revolution is emerging, the Muslim world is engaged with us from Barak's Cairo speech, and the Earth is now flat. Whatever Obama does, even though it's identical to what Bush did for eight years, (except for the cap & trade, nationalization of businesses and healthcare) shall be looked upon with hope and a promise of a new world of peace and good intentions. If they can't get everything done with a super majority, it just can't be done.
 
B - The Evil Republicans will still, somehow, prevent the Super-Awesome Democrats from saving us all and making popcorn for us too. Somehow, it'll all be Bush's fault.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']No, I'm not. I was though. I supported Obama until he got in and started lying on his first days in office. Then, I realized that both parties are frauds, and started to support people like Ron Paul, and Jesse Ventura. I just said that to try to help some of those out there realize that Obama isn't bringing change, all he does is say one thing and do the other.[/QUOTE]

You had me going until you said "Ron Paul".
 
Oh, Ron Paul. You mean the man who doesn't believe evolution is real?

No, no... surely you must mean some other Ron Paul. Nobody would support a man who doesn't understand that a theory is a body of facts that surrounds an idea... right?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JyvkjSKMLw[/media]
 
[quote name='rabbitt']Oh, Ron Paul. You mean the man who doesn't believe evolution is real?

No, no... surely you must mean some other Ron Paul. Nobody would support a man who doesn't understand that a theory is a body of facts that surrounds an idea... right?

[/QUOTE]


What a fucking idiot.
 
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[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Ron Paul's allowed to his opinion isn't he?[/QUOTE]

He's allowed to his opinion. He's also allowed to be endlessly scrutinized for having an incredibly stupid one.

EDIT: Furthermore, if we have another President who believes in a literal translation of the Bible, I will be moving to another country (if I haven't done so already). One can only watch for so long as America falls further down the ladder of society where nearly half of the population believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

That there were at least 2 religiously fundamental politicians (horrifyingly) close to becoming President in the last election is a sign to me that I won't be living here forever.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']He's allowed to his opinion. He's also allowed to be endlessly scrutinized for having an incredibly stupid one.

EDIT: Furthermore, if we have another President who believes in a literal translation of the Bible, I will be moving to another country (if I haven't done so already). One can only watch for so long as America falls further down the ladder of society where nearly half of the population believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

That there were at least 2 religiously fundamental politicians (horrifyingly) close to becoming President in the last election is a sign to me that I won't be living here forever.[/QUOTE]

You may think it is stupid, but there are many people in America who think that is the truth. Some people believe in faith, others in science. Besides, what does it matter if he believes in Creationism? The issues are what should matter in looking at a politician. Its not like he's saying "Everyone who believes in Evolution should be burned at stake!" He doesn't really even care what you believe in, as you have the freedom to believe in whatever you want, under the Constitution.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']You may think it is stupid, but there are many people in America who think that is the truth. Some people believe in faith, others in science. Besides, what does it matter if he believes in Creationism? The issues are what should matter in looking at a politician. Its not like he's saying "Everyone who believes in Evolution should be burned at stake!" He doesn't really even care what you believe in, as you have the freedom to believe in whatever you want, under the Constitution.[/QUOTE]

It matters because evolution is not just a random guess. It's not a matter of believing or not believing; it's a matter of accepting or not accepting documented facts. And when the person in charge of a nation is unwilling to accept facts you walk on dangerous ground.

If a person claimed he was Genghis Khan despite all evidence to the contrary, we'd call him crazy and get him treatment. Why do we treat religious followers differently just because they are a large group?
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']It matters because evolution is not just a random guess. It's not a matter of believing or not believing; it's a matter of accepting or not accepting documented facts. And when the person in charge of a nation is unwilling to accept facts you walk on dangerous ground.

If a person claimed he was Genghis Khan despite all evidence to the contrary, we'd call him crazy and get him treatment. Why do we treat religious followers differently just because they are a large group?[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I would have said.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']You may think it is stupid, but there are many people in America who think that is the truth.[/quote]

The Catholic Church more or less has found accommodation with evolution. It long ago became just pandering to young earth loons.

Ron Paul's allowed to his opinion isn't he?

I for one am sick of people hiding behind wrongheaded thinking by calling it merely "an opinion".

The issues are what should matter in looking at a politician.

That *is* an issue, see how well the last anti-science President worked out?
 
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When congress offers you a bill, do you promise not to use presidential signing statements
signature_deepthakur.jpg
:)
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']It matters because evolution is not just a random guess. It's not a matter of believing or not believing; it's a matter of accepting or not accepting documented facts. And when the person in charge of a nation is unwilling to accept facts you walk on dangerous ground.[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about natural selection or the theory that life started in the primordial ooze and ended up where it is today? That natural selection takes place is pretty well documented, but how life began is far more difficult. I think anyone who claims they know for a "fact" that such-and-such happened exactly as they say billions of years ago has maybe just a small amount of hubris.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']You may think it is stupid, but there are many people in America who think that is the truth. Some people believe in faith, others in science. Besides, what does it matter if he believes in Creationism? The issues are what should matter in looking at a politician. Its not like he's saying "Everyone who believes in Evolution should be burned at stake!" He doesn't really even care what you believe in, as you have the freedom to believe in whatever you want, under the Constitution.[/QUOTE]
Because a person's opinion on religion can shape their policy decisions. Take the separation of church and state for example, you don't think a person's own beliefs could play a part in that? Or the right to an abortion for example, how many religious politicians how come out against abortion?

A person's own beliefs affect their opinions on things.
 
I'd rather vote for someone that believes a giant worm shit the earth out eons ago, if he was also going to do and not do things I strongly believe in, while in office - versus one of these empty suits we keep voting for whose personal beliefs are whatever are popular and normal at the time and continue the 'keep everything the same' policy we keep getting.

Hell, I'd take a full on robe wearing church of mithra worshiping pagan mother-fucka that believes in UFO's and aliens over what we've got, if he knew the real meaning of change (the types of changes ron paul, and the like, talk about).

I find it personally impressive when someone is not afraid to express unpopular or 'weird' personal beliefs. It's a rare thing in politics. But we only elect those that lie to us to sound normal, for reasons stated in the posts above mine.
 
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I'd rather vote for someone that believes a giant space-worm shit the earth out eons ago and prays to the moon regularly, if he was also going to understand the real meaning of "change"; doing and not doing things I strongly believe in while in office - versus one of these empty suits we keep electing, whose personal beliefs are whatever are popular and normal at the time and continue the 'keep everything the same' policy we keep getting.

Hell, I'd take a full on robe wearing church of mithra worshiping pagan mother-fucka over what we've got, if he knew the real meaning of change.
 
That would be fine and all, except that the popular belief is that an invisible man made the earth in six days, impregnated a virgin, and had himself, regifted as a Jew, all to die for original sin. Sounds right up there with your shitting worm, don'it?

Or maybe you give religion special precedence because a lot of people believe in it.

Electing a leader who outright denies certain facts which are continuously scrutinized and tested rigorously by the scientific community is a mistake we have come far too close to doing several times. If said leader has no qualms with denying such a thing as evolution, what else could he or she guffaw at once in office? Poverty? Puh-lease. Women's rights? You know where this is going.

The perversion of education that is Creationism could only come from a group like the Christian fundamentalists. Something like this could only be harbored by a country that itself denies common facts that biologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and mathematicians all hold as common ground for other facts to be built upon. When you elect someone that denies evolution, you open the door for an age of ignorance and unreason.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']That would be fine and all, except that the popular belief is that an invisible man made the earth in six days, impregnated a virgin, and had himself, regifted as a Jew, all to die for original sin. Sounds right up there with your shitting worm, don'it?

Or maybe you give religion special precedence because a lot of people believe in it.

Electing a leader who outright denies certain facts which are continuously scrutinized and tested rigorously by the scientific community is a mistake we have come far too close to doing several times. If said leader has no qualms with denying such a thing as evolution, what else could he or she guffaw at once in office? Poverty? Puh-lease. Women's rights? You know where this is going.

The perversion of education that is Creationism could only come from a group like the Christian fundamentalists. Something like this could only be harbored by a country that itself denies common facts that biologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and mathematicians all hold as common ground for other facts to be built upon. When you elect someone that denies evolution, you open the door for an age of ignorance and unreason.[/QUOTE]

Okay, let's do a hypothetical then. Say there is someone running for president. You agree with them on every issue, except for one. They believe that the universe was created by a Sega Dreamcast. They regularly worship Sega Dreamcasts, but believe that you should be able to have any religion you want, so they don't think the theory of SegaDreamcastution should be taught in schools, and the church of Dreamcast should not be forced on anyone. Would you still vote for them?
 
The idea is still the same. The only thing that the original video shows is that he's wishy-washy.

All you and I needed to hear was that "...it was a theory and I don't accept it" to know that this man is a moron.

[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Okay, let's do a hypothetical then. Say there is someone running for president. You agree with them on every issue, except for one. They believe that the universe was created by a Sega Dreamcast. They regularly worship Sega Dreamcasts, but believe that you should be able to have any religion you want, so they don't think the theory of SegaDreamcastution should be taught in schools, and the church of Dreamcast should not be forced on anyone. Would you still vote for them?[/quote]

You're completely missing the point by asking this question. I am an atheist who has voted for a Christian (what choice do I have, besides to not vote?), so you're going to have to throw that question out. This culture seems to make belief in God a prerequisite for running for the White House or, indeed, any political position.

It's not that Ron Paul or Mike Huckabee believe in God, it's what they disbelieve as an extension of their religious extremism that we should be worried about.

Believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, God, or The Shitting Worm are equally silly and equally as likely to be false.

(But, now that I'm thinking about it, worshiping the Super Nintendo is probably the closest I got to having a religion...)

You talk about SegaDreamcastitution not being taught in schools, but under someone like Mitt Romney, one could see how Creationism could creep its way into schools. That is not a choice we want our children to have.

This man shares the same worries that I do, as far as electing a religiously fundamental man as president goes.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kkKdQ6yubE [/media]
 
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[quote name='rabbitt']The idea is still the same. The only thing that the original video shows is that he's wishy-washy.

All you and I needed to hear was that "...it was a theory and I don't accept it" to know that this man is a moron.[/QUOTE]

"I just don’t think we’re at the point where anybody has absolute truth on either side."

Thus it is a "theory" and not a "law".

And for the record, I do believe in the theory of Evolution.

Maybe if Ron Paul had just answered "That's above my pay grade.", everyone would have cheered and voted for him?

The second part of that video that was so kindly edited out is the major issue. "So, I just don’t, uh… if that were the only issue, quite frankly, uh, I would think it’s an interesting discussion, I think it’s a theological discussion and I think it’s fine and we can have our… if that were the issue of the day I wouldn’t be running for public office."

Ron Paul doesn't want to come into your home and our schools and force us to believe the way he does. Isn't that a good thing?
 
[quote name='rabbitt']The idea is still the same. The only thing that the original video shows is that he's wishy-washy.

All you and I needed to hear was that "...it was a theory and I don't accept it" to know that this man is a moron.[/QUOTE]
Let me get this straight. You think everyone who is not an atheist, and doesn't believe that we evolved from a single-celled organism is a moron right? Wow, you're worse than all these christian fundamentalists you hate. You ever see the twilight zone episode, "The Obsolete Man"?
 
Bob et al. theory means something more than wee bit difference in this context.

As much as the flat earthers try to warp it.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']The idea is still the same. The only thing that the original video shows is that he's wishy-washy.

All you and I needed to hear was that "...it was a theory and I don't accept it" to know that this man is a moron.



You're completely missing the point by asking this question. I am an atheist who has voted for a Christian (what choice do I have, besides to not vote?), so you're going to have to throw that question out. This culture seems to make belief in God a prerequisite for running for the White House or, indeed, any political position.

It's not that Ron Paul or Mike Huckabee believe in God, it's what they disbelieve as an extension of their religious extremism that we should be worried about.

Believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, God, or The Shitting Worm are equally silly and equally as likely to be false.

(But, now that I'm thinking about it, worshiping the Super Nintendo is probably the closest I got to having a religion...)

You talk about SegaDreamcastitution not being taught in schools, but under someone like Mitt Romney, one could see how Creationism could creep its way into schools. That is not a choice we want our children to have.
[/QUOTE]
Ron Paul is not Mitt Romney. He doesn't believe creationism should be forced on people, they should be able to believe what they want.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Let me get this straight. You think everyone who is not an atheist, and doesn't believe that we evolved from a single-celled organism is a moron right? Wow, you're worse than all these christian fundamentalists you hate. You ever see the twilight zone episode, "The Obsolete Man"?[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the exact same thing. If someone says "Oh, Evolution is a fact and anyone who thinks differently is a moron." that's perfectly okay. But if someone were to say "Oh, creationism is a fact and anyone who thinks differently is a moron.", half the board would be up in arms.

Stephen J. Gould wrote "Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts."

The THEORY of Evolution (Or 'natural selection') does just that - it proposes to explain why chicken have teeth genes. It doesn't prove why they are there.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Let me get this straight. You think everyone who is not an atheist, and doesn't believe that we evolved from a single-celled organism is a moron right? Wow, you're worse than all these christian fundamentalists you hate. You ever see the twilight zone episode, "The Obsolete Man"?[/QUOTE]

I never said people who weren't atheists were automatically morons. I will stop debating when you add clauses to my argument. I wouldn't vote for someone who I thought was a moron and, as you saw that I noted, everyone that runs has to at least claim a belief in God.

EDIT: And Stephen J. Gould developed NOMA (Non-Overlapping Magisteria). He thought that religion and science could not comment on each other. Christianity states that there is an invisible man who created everything we see before us. Well, that's a statement about the world, isn't it? Religion claims a stake in the empirical world by saying it is made by a creator, and that this is good in explaining both the how and why. If religion is going to claim some information about the world then science is allowed to refute it.

More wishy-washy bullshit.
 
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[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Ron Paul is not Mitt Romney. He doesn't believe creationism should be forced on people, they should be able to believe what they want.[/QUOTE]

Mitt Romney has never alluded to ever wanting to teach creationism in school that I know of. I'm not sure why he was even brought up.

[quote name='rabbitt']I never said people who weren't atheists were automatically morons. I will stop debating when you add clauses to my argument. I wouldn't vote for someone who I thought was a moron and, as you saw that I noted, everyone that runs has to at least claim a belief in God.[/quote]
They don't have to. Jesse Ventura is a very vocal atheist and he was gov.
Most people in this country do believe in a higher power of some kind, and they resent it when someone thinks they are smart enough to say most people are certainly wrong (which is how many atheists come off). That's why hard-core Richard Dawkins-loving Atheists never go far politically in this country.

EDIT: And Stephen J. Gould developed NOMA (Non-Overlapping Magisteria). He thought that religion and science could not comment on each other. Christianity states that there is an invisible man who created everything we see before us. Well, that's a statement about the world, isn't it? Religion claims a stake in the empirical world by saying it is made by a creator, and that this is good in explaining both the how and why. If religion is going to claim some information about the world then science is allowed to refute it.
More wishy-washy bullshit.

You are making very very generalizing sweeping generalizations about Christianity. It's not that black and white, and it's not that extreme. For some sects/factions it is that extreme, but your generalizations are akin in accuracy to saying all muslims are all supporters of violent terrorists.
 
I throw Mitt Romney in with the religiously fundamental group. For our argument, you can use Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, or Mitt Romney interchangeably.

Of course these previous candidates weren't looking to force religion on anyone, but someone who actively turns their head from evolution most likely is doing this for religious reasons. From this, I think it is safe to assume that they believe religion is a rigorous alternative that can replace, or at least accompany, science. It suits them, so hell, why shouldn't children have the chance to learn both? It's the tolerance of teaching Christianity (weakly disguised as Intelligent Design, and, previously Creationism) alongside evolution in the classroom, as if it is a valid alternative method, that is most dangerous. You open up the door of pseudoscience and ignorance comes walking in with it, hand-in-hand.

Don't give me the safety in numbers argument and I won't bring up Nazi Germany. 18.2 million Germans can't be wrong!

And, for the record, Richard Dawkins is a bit more qualified to talk about this subject than either of us.

I didn't make any generalizations about Christianity or religion for that matter. The points I touched on were simply the basic tenets that nearly all Christians agree on.

+There is a God and He created the universe. ("Christianity states that there is an invisible man who created everything we see before us."

+This God is all-seeing.

+This God is all-knowing.

+This God is all-powerful.

In fact, this composes the foundation for most popular religions.

It is 2009. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to get with the times. Evolution is the best explanation we have for the origin of species. It is certainly flawed (scientists wouldn't seriously argue any level of perfection), however, this is no reason to turn completely from it. Religion was our first attempt at illuminating the darkness, but science is a candle in the dark for the 21st century.

EDIT: I can't be positive, but after reading this story, I would bet that Poland has a great abstinence-only program, a result only possible when your country gives religion and science the same value.
 
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[quote name='thrustbucket']
They don't have to. Jesse Ventura is a very vocal atheist and he was gov.
[/QUOTE]
Actually Jesse Ventura does believe in God, just not in organized religion.
[quote name='rabbitt']I throw Mitt Romney in with the religiously fundamental group. For our argument, you can use Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, or Mitt Romney interchangeably.

Of course these previous candidates weren't looking to force religion on anyone, but someone who actively turns their head from evolution most likely is doing this for religious reasons. From this, I think it is safe to assume that they believe religion is a rigorous alternative that can replace, or at least accompany, science. It suits them, so hell, why shouldn't children have the chance to learn both? It's the tolerance of teaching Christianity (weakly disguised as Intelligent Design, and, previously Creationism) alongside evolution in the classroom, as if it is a valid alternative method, that is most dangerous. You open up the door of pseudoscience and ignorance comes walking in with it, hand-in-hand.

Don't give me the safety in numbers argument and I won't bring up Nazi Germany. 18.2 million Germans can't be wrong!

And, for the record, Richard Dawkins is a bit more qualified to talk about this subject than either of us. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, Richard Dawkins. He's real great. He thinks apes should all have the same rights as humans. Right.................. Also, he says
but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.
http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html
Also, he wants to breed humans, for their different abilities
From a letter titled "Eugenics might not be bad"
"if you can breed cattle for milk yield, horses for running speed, and dogs for herding skill,why on Earth should it be impossible to breed humans for mathematical, musical or athletic ability?
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3...hard-Dawkins-Supports-Eugenics,Wesley-J-Smith
Also, he has this to say about the Jews:
"When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and (yet they) more or less monopolize American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place."
Here's what the ADL has to say about his quote:
"This is classical anti-Semitism. Just because it's wrapped around an issue of atheism doesn't make it any less virulent, anti-Semitic and dangerous."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3457718,00.html
He says a world without religion would be like this
"Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/books...1166290680988.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
So, yeah, Richard Dawkins. He's a real great guy.
 
Richard Dawkins is a hard-core militant atheist that has a different agenda from most clear-minded atheists that simply like physical proof for things. He's negative and destructive.

And for the record, there are many Christian sects that do not believe in an "invisible man", and there are some that don't believe god is a man at all but a force or energy. In fact, many believe the word "god" can be used interchangably to mean a number of different things from Jesus to nature - that doesn't mean they believe Jesus is nature and vice versa.

Either way, I still somewhat resent the assumption that the political leaders you list are fundementalist's, that will very likely try to push religion on you (a good summary of your concerns), when none of them have ever said anything to give reason to have those concerns. I think it's more that you would prefer to vote for someone that is as anti-religion as yourself, just to be on the safe side for your own concerns and agenda - and they clearly aren't.
 
bread's done
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