Of False Flags and Israel...

joeboosauce

CAGiversary!
Is Israel attempting to spark a conflict with Iran? Now, how often do you think Israel does this? What about false flags and recruiting terrorist organizations in general? Here a report from Foreign Policy magazine. Read, discuss...

False Flag


A series of CIA memos describes how Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit members of the terrorist organization Jundallah to fight their covert war against Iran.

BY MARK PERRY | JANUARY 13, 2012

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag


Buried deep in the archives of America's intelligence services are a series of memos, written during the last years of President George W. Bush's administration, that describe how Israeli Mossad officers recruited operatives belonging to the terrorist group Jundallah by passing themselves off as American agents. According to two U.S. intelligence officials, the Israelis, flush with American dollars and toting U.S. passports, posed as CIA officers in recruiting Jundallah operatives -- what is commonly referred to as a "false flag" operation.

The memos, as described by the sources, one of whom has read them and another who is intimately familiar with the case, investigated and debunked reports from 2007 and 2008 accusing the CIA, at the direction of the White House, of covertly supporting Jundallah -- a Pakistan-based Sunni extremist organization. Jundallah, according to the U.S. government and published reports, is responsible for assassinating Iranian government officials and killing Iranian women and children.

But while the memos show that the United States had barred even the most incidental contact with Jundallah, according to both intelligence officers, the same was not true for Israel's Mossad. The memosalso detail CIA field reports saying that Israel's recruiting activities occurred under the nose of U.S. intelligence officers, most notably in London, the capital of one of Israel's ostensible allies, where Mossad officers posing as CIA operatives met with Jundallah officials.

The officials did not know whether the Israeli program to recruit and use Jundallah is ongoing. Nevertheless, they were stunned by the brazenness of the Mossad's efforts.

"It's amazing what the Israelis thought they could get away with," the intelligence officer said. "Their recruitment activities were nearly in the open. They apparently didn't give a damn what we thought."
Interviews with six currently serving or recently retired intelligence officers over the last 18 months have helped to fill in the blanks of the Israeli false-flag operation. In addition to the two currently serving U.S. intelligence officers, the existence of the Israeli false-flag operation was confirmed to me by four retired intelligence officers who have served in the CIA or have monitored Israeli intelligence operations from senior positions inside the U.S. government.

The CIA and the White House were both asked for comment on this story. By the time this story went to press, they had not responded. The Israeli intelligence services -- the Mossad -- were also contacted, in writing and by telephone, but failed to respond. As a policy, Israel does not confirm or deny its involvement in intelligence operations.

There is no denying that there is a covert, bloody, and ongoing campaign aimed at stopping Iran's nuclear program, though no evidence has emerged connecting recent acts of sabotage and killings inside Iran to Jundallah. Many reports have cited Israel as the architect of this covert campaign, which claimed its latest victim on Jan. 11 when a motorcyclist in Tehran slipped a magnetic explosive device under the car of Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan, a young Iranian nuclear scientist. The explosion killed Roshan, making him the fourth scientist assassinated in the past two years. The United States adamantly denies it is behind these killings.

According to one retired CIA officer, information about the false-flag operation was reported up the U.S. intelligence chain of command. It reached CIA Director of Operations Stephen Kappes, his deputy Michael Sulick, and the head of the Counterintelligence Center. All three of these officials are now retired. The Counterintelligence Center, according to its website, is tasked with investigating "threats posed by foreign intelligence services."

The report then made its way to the White House, according to the currently serving U.S. intelligence officer. The officer said that Bush "went absolutely ballistic" when briefed on its contents.

"The report sparked White House concerns that Israel's program was putting Americans at risk," the intelligence officer told me. "There's no question that the U.S. has cooperated with Israel in intelligence-gathering operations against the Iranians, but this was different. No matter what anyone thinks, we're not in the business of assassinating Iranian officials or killing Iranian civilians."

Israel's relationship with Jundallah continued to roil the Bush administration until the day it left office, this same intelligence officer noted. Israel's activities jeopardized the administration's fragile relationship with Pakistan, which was coming under intense pressure from Iran to crack down on Jundallah. It also undermined U.S. claims that it would never fight terror with terror, and invited attacks in kind on U.S. personnel.

"It's easy to understand why Bush was so angry," a former intelligence officer said. "After all, it's hard to engage with a foreign government if they're convinced you're killing their people. Once you start doing that, they feel they can do the same."

A senior administration official vowed to "take the gloves off" with Israel, according to a U.S. intelligence officer. But the United States did nothing -- a result that the officer attributed to "political and bureaucratic inertia."
"In the end," the officer noted, "it was just easier to do nothing than to, you know, rock the boat." Even so, at least for a short time, this same officer noted, the Mossad operation sparked a divisive debate among Bush's national security team, pitting those who wondered "just whose side these guys [in Israel] are on" against those who argued that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The debate over Jundallah was resolved only after Bush left office when, within his first weeks as president, Barack Obama drastically scaled back joint U.S.-Israel intelligence programs targeting Iran, according to multiple serving and retired officers.

The decision was controversial inside the CIA, where officials were forced to shut down "some key intelligence-gathering operations," a recently retired CIA officer confirmed. This action was followed in November 2010 by the State Department's addition of Jundallah to its list of foreign terrorist organizations -- a decision that one former CIA officer called "an absolute no-brainer."

Since Obama's initial order, U.S. intelligence services have received clearance to cooperate with Israel on a number of classified intelligence-gathering operations focused on Iran's nuclear program, according to a currently serving officer. These operations are highly technical in nature and do not involve covert actions targeting Iran's infrastructure or political or military leadership.

"We don't do bang and boom," a recently retired intelligence officer said. "And we don't do political assassinations."

Israel regularly proposes conducting covert operations targeting Iranians, but is just as regularly shut down, according to retired and current intelligence officers. "They come into the room and spread out their plans, and we just shake our heads," one highly placed intelligence source said, "and we say to them -- 'Don't even go there. The answer is no.'"

Unlike the Mujahedin-e Khalq, the controversial exiled Iranian terrorist group that seeks the overthrow of the Tehran regime and is supported by former leading U.S. policymakers, Jundallah is relatively unknown -- but just as violent. In May 2009, a Jundallah suicide bomber blew himself up inside a mosque in Zahedan, the capital of Iran's southeastern Sistan-Baluchistan province bordering Pakistan, during a Shiite religious festival. The bombing killed 25 Iranians and wounded scores of others.

The attack enraged Tehran, which traced the perpetrators to a cell operating in Pakistan. The Iranian government notified the Pakistanis of the Jundallah threat and urged them to break up the movement's bases along the Iranian-Pakistani border. The Pakistanis reacted sluggishly in the border areas, feeding Tehran's suspicions that Jundallah was protected by Pakistan's intelligence services.

The 2009 attack was just one in a long line of terrorist attacks attributed to the organization. In August 2007, Jundallah kidnapped 21 Iranian truck drivers. In December 2008, it captured and executed 16 Iranian border guards -- the gruesome killings were filmed, in a stark echo of the decapitation of American businessman Nick Berg in Iraq at the hands of al Qaeda's Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. In July 2010, Jundallah conducted a twin suicide bombing in Zahedan outside a mosque, killing dozens of people, including members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

The State Department aggressively denies that the U.S. government had or has any ties to Jundallah. "We have repeatedly stated, and reiterate again that the United States has not provided support to Jundallah," a spokesman wrote in an email to the Wall Street Journal, following Jundallah's designation as a terrorist organization. "The United States does not sponsor any form of terrorism. We will continue to work with the international community to curtail support for terrorist organizations and prevent violence against innocent civilians. We have also encouraged other governments to take comparable actions against Jundallah."

A spate of stories in 2007 and 2008, including a report by ABC News and a New Yorker article, suggested that the United States was offering covert support to Jundallah. The issue has now returned to the spotlight with the string of assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists and has outraged serving and retired intelligence officers who fear that Israeli operations are endangering American lives.

"This certainly isn't the first time this has happened, though it's the worst case I've heard of," former Centcom chief and retired Gen. Joe Hoar said of the Israeli operation upon being informed of it. "But while false-flag operations are hardly new, they're extremely dangerous. You're basically using your friendship with an ally for your own purposes. Israel is playing with fire. It gets us involved in their covert war, whether we want to be involved or not."

The Israeli operation left a number of recently retired CIA officers sputtering in frustration. "It's going to be pretty hard for the U.S. to distance itself from an Israeli attack on Iran with this kind of thing going on," one of them told me.

Jundallah head Abdolmalek Rigi was captured by Iran in February 2010. Although initial reports claimed that he was captured by the Iranians after taking a flight from Dubai to Kyrgyzstan, a retired intelligence officer with knowledge of the incident told me that Rigi was detained by Pakistani intelligence officers in Pakistan. The officer said that Rigi was turned over to the Iranians after the Pakistani government informed the United States that it planned to do so. The United States, this officer said, did not raise objections to the Pakistani decision.

Iran, meanwhile, has consistently claimed that Rigi was snatched from under the eyes of the CIA, which it alleges supported him. "It doesn't matter," the former intelligence officer said of Iran's charges. "It doesn't matter what they say. They know the truth."

Rigi was interrogated, tried, and convicted by the Iranians and hanged on June 20, 2010. Prior to his execution, Rigi claimed in an interview with Iranian media -- which has to be assumed was under duress -- that he had doubts about U.S. sponsorship of Jundallah. He recounted an alleged meeting with "NATO officials" in Morocco in 2007 that raised his suspicions. "When we thought about it we came to the conclusion that they are either Americans acting under NATO cover or Israelis," he said.

While many of the details of Israel's involvement with Jundallah are now known, many others still remain a mystery -- and are likely to remain so. The CIA memos of the incident have been "blue bordered," meaning that they were circulated to senior levels of the broader U.S. intelligence community as well as senior State Department officials.

What has become crystal clear, however, is the level of anger among senior intelligence officials about Israel's actions. "This was stupid and dangerous," the intelligence official who first told me about the operation said. "Israel is supposed to be working with us, not against us. If they want to shed blood, it would help a lot if it was their blood and not ours. You know, they're supposed to be a strategic asset. Well, guess what? There are a lot of people now, important people, who just don't think that's true."
 
"It's amazing what the Israelis thought they could get away with," the intelligence officer said. "Their recruitment activities were nearly in the open. They apparently didn't give a damn what we thought."
Pretty much. They know they can operate with near immunity because we have their back.

What has become crystal clear, however, is the level of anger among senior intelligence officials about Israel's actions. "This was stupid and dangerous," the intelligence official who first told me about the operation said. "Israel is supposed to be working with us, not against us. If they want to shed blood, it would help a lot if it was their blood and not ours. You know, they're supposed to be a strategic asset. Well, guess what? There are a lot of people now, important people, who just don't think that's true."
I'm glad intelligence officials realize this, too bad our politicians still coddle Israel like it's some helpless child.
 
[quote name='Clak']Pretty much. They know they can operate with near immunity because we have their back.

I'm glad intelligence officials realize this, too bad our politicians still coddle Israel like it's some helpless child.[/QUOTE]

We've got their back because they're an island unto themselves with next to no friends in the world. Mind you, they don't do themselves many favours in that regard.
 
I don't trust Israel one bit...

It is really sad that Israel is the #1 recipient in cumulative foreign aid from the US since WW2! It's not like they have people who are starving... they're using the money to build up their military power and nuclear weapons (BTW, why is it OK for Israel to have nukes, but not the Arabic countries???)

Israel should fight its own battles...
 
We give them money because they're our foothold in the area. They get nukes because we said so.
 
[quote name='nasum']We've got their back because they're an island unto themselves with next to no friends in the world. Mind you, they don't do themselves many favours in that regard.[/QUOTE]

They also chose that island, and got the international community to place it on top of an existing island.

But don't kid yourself into believing we support them because we think they have it so rough. Read Avi Shlaim's book "The Iron Wall". One of the best reads on the Middle East conflict and modern history.

Personally, I think our allignment with them is going to be the cause of the next World War. That UN Security Council business is bullshit, and the rest of the world is tiring of their foreign policy tactics.
 
It doesn't help when you have religious nut bags chiming in that its "our Xitian duty" to protect Israel. Meanwhile these are the same people that fire off anti-Semitic comments at the drop of a hat when no one is paying attention.

Me, I'm over the bullshit. They just love to kick a hornets nest then cry foul when they get stung and bitch that they didn't do anything
 
Well Obama put a freeze on Iran's American assets so it's not as much a conspiracy as it's Iran's willingness to proceed with a nuclear program. They are stockpiling weapons for some time now and they openly admit to wanting to wipe Israel off the map based on a backwards ideology. Iran is also conducting weapons testings and military drills so it's obvious that another middle eastern country is going to be doing some killing. Personally, everyone's hate for the Jews aside, aren't they entitled to their little piece of earth?

I'd rather we arm Israel and have them fight their own battles then risk our own men and women. It's clear that all the Islamic countries want to kill us so an ally is important. But then again, the Sunni's and Shiite's can't even get along without killing each other so I guess peace is going to have to come by force.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']Well Obama put a freeze on Iran's American assets so it's not as much a conspiracy as it's Iran's willingness to proceed with a nuclear program. They are stockpiling weapons for some time now and they openly admit to wanting to wipe Israel off the map based on a backwards ideology. Iran is also conducting weapons testings and military drills so it's obvious that another middle eastern country is going to be doing some killing. Personally, everyone's hate for the Jews aside, aren't they entitled to their little piece of earth?

I'd rather we arm Israel and have them fight their own battles then risk our own men and women. It's clear that all the Islamic countries want to kill us so an ally is important. But then again, the Sunni's and Shiite's can't even get along without killing each other so I guess peace is going to have to come by force.[/QUOTE]
I'd rather we let them arm themselves AND fight their own battles. To hell with getting involved in the affairs of the Middle East anymore. They wanna be hostile to each other, let them. Let them wipe each other out till the whole of the Middle East is a giant crater.

As for them being 'entitled' to their own little piee of Earth, everyone is but don't tell that to them as it pertains to the Palestinians, right? After all, they're a smegma that must be wiped clean from THEIR land, much like our ancestors wiped out the American Indians.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']Well Obama put a freeze on Iran's American assets so it's not as much a conspiracy as it's Iran's willingness to proceed with a nuclear program. They are stockpiling weapons for some time now and they openly admit to wanting to wipe Israel off the map based on a backwards ideology.[/QUOTE]

You're factually incorrect. The "wipe Israel off the map" hoax has been disproven:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...d-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article16218.htm

There is also no proof that they have any nuclear weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

Iran is also conducting weapons testings and military drills so it's obvious that another middle eastern country is going to be doing some killing.

Wait a tick...it's against the law for a sovereign nation to train their military and test weapons? In other news, cops and federal law enforcement officers train every day

Personally, everyone's hate for the Jews aside, aren't they entitled to their little piece of earth?

Who hates the Jews? I'm actually a very small percent Jewish (just found out last year). One of my life mentor's is a brilliant Jewish professor. I hate ISRAEL's foreign and domestic policies. I don't hate the Jews.

And just since we're educating you from scratch, the arab people are semites too, so believing they are a bunch of raving mad anti-semites wouldn't be accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Semitic_peoples

I'd rather we arm Israel and have them fight their own battles then risk our own men and women.

As IATCG said, I too would rather see Israel arm themselves with their own technology and weapons, and fight their own fight. They don't need billions in welfare from the US.

It's clear that all the Islamic countries want to kill us so an ally is important.

ORLY?

All these countries want to kill us, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_majority_countries#List_of_countries

But then again, the Sunni's and Shiite's can't even get along without killing each other so I guess peace is going to have to come by force.

That's actually the first great point you've made, because Islam is the only religion that has had violent clashes among its sects, so...well there was this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

OK, but that's all the Christian in-fighting we've heard of..well, this one too:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/08/17/MN482.DTL

Those two. That's all.

Dammit. http://history-world.org/reformation.htm

Oi vei: http://www.wnd.com/2004/07/25426/
"There have been religious aspects to the calls for violence, as well. Last week, Avigdor Nebenzahl, prominent rabbi of the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem’s Old City, declared that anyone giving away a part of the land of Israel is a “rodef” – someone whom it is permissible or required by Jewish law to kill before he kills."

In summary, it's fine to have the opinions you do, that's the very nature of opinion, but please don't ever assume you are speaking facts.
 
1. I didn't say Iran had nuclear weapons, just a nuclear program. It's pretty safe to assume with all the talks that they intend to create a nuclear weapon at some point. Iran is not a very humanitarian country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iranand )I seriously doubt this being built to benefit Iranians. And I said they were stockpiling weapons like missles, didn't say nuclear. So please don't marry the two since that is not what I said.



2. There is no need to be sarcastic, or naive.

There may not be any need to stop the presses, but to ramp up these exercises when they are already a sore spot with supporting Hamas and other terrorist organizations doesnt put out a lot of good will. Hamas fires rockets into Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Israel_relations read up on their funding on Hamas, nothing like a good old fashion Jihad for the kiddies. Supporting an organization that is trying to wipe out Israel is pretty damning, looking forward to your response. I suppose is Israel's fault for wanting to co-exist? There are also no gays in Iran, did you know?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lot-kill-Saudi-ambassador-Washington-D-C.html



There is a lot of talk of an Iran-Israel conflict and whose military do you think will strike first and who will be in defense. Hint Netanyahu pleads for peace talks while Ahmadinejad is known for well all this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel He's a swell guy, probably hard to buy a gift for, maybe Seinfeld on DVD?

3. Your Jewish, just a little, that's adorable. It's on this site, it's all over, I see it at work and even those wacky occupy people love it, that is when they aren't burning American flags http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9CARUwio They are blamed for nearly every conspiracy, believe me I'm not Jewish but I see it everywhere and I'm not exactly looking for it.

4. Blame support for Israel on our government officials. Then again we give out so much foreign aid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid why not help them defend themselves if they are peaceful and basically surrounded by ignorant people who want to take back "their" land.

5. Why don't you go to each of those countries with a Hawaiin shirt on an American flag and see how long you last :) They don't all hate us, maybe that was an overstatement but don't fool yourself into believeing that we are not well like based on a lot of the PR we get overseas. It's not like everyone speaks as one, each person over there is going to have an opinion.

6 Yes not all Christians get along, not all whites get along not all Canadians get along, not all athesits get along, not all occupy protestors get along, not all politicans get along, not all kids on the playground get along, not all family gets along, shall I go on? When people strap on a bomb and blow themselves up in a crowded market I think you crossed a line and missed the point of your religion. Tolerance is a very finite human emotion.

I hope I expanded on some of my "opinions" for you and likewise please don't think that your limited view of the world is fact either.




[quote name='berzirk']You're factually incorrect. The "wipe Israel off the map" hoax has been disproven:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...d-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article16218.htm

There is also no proof that they have any nuclear weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction



Wait a tick...it's against the law for a sovereign nation to train their military and test weapons? In other news, cops and federal law enforcement officers train every day



Who hates the Jews? I'm actually a very small percent Jewish (just found out last year). One of my life mentor's is a brilliant Jewish professor. I hate ISRAEL's foreign and domestic policies. I don't hate the Jews.

And just since we're educating you from scratch, the arab people are semites too, so believing they are a bunch of raving mad anti-semites wouldn't be accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Semitic_peoples



As IATCG said, I too would rather see Israel arm themselves with their own technology and weapons, and fight their own fight. They don't need billions in welfare from the US.



ORLY?

All these countries want to kill us, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_majority_countries#List_of_countries



That's actually the first great point you've made, because Islam is the only religion that has had violent clashes among its sects, so...well there was this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

OK, but that's all the Christian in-fighting we've heard of..well, this one too:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/08/17/MN482.DTL

Those two. That's all.

Dammit. http://history-world.org/reformation.htm

Oi vei: http://www.wnd.com/2004/07/25426/
"There have been religious aspects to the calls for violence, as well. Last week, Avigdor Nebenzahl, prominent rabbi of the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem’s Old City, declared that anyone giving away a part of the land of Israel is a “rodef” – someone whom it is permissible or required by Jewish law to kill before he kills."

In summary, it's fine to have the opinions you do, that's the very nature of opinion, but please don't ever assume you are speaking facts.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']1. I didn't say Iran had nuclear weapons, just a nuclear program. It's pretty safe to assume with all the talks that they intend to create a nuclear weapon at some point. Iran is not a very humanitarian country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iranand )I seriously doubt this being built to benefit Iranians. And I said they were stockpiling weapons like missles, didn't say nuclear. So please don't marry the two since that is not what I said. [/QUOTE]

It's fine to have an opinion that you seriously doubt they don't have nuclear weapons. There's no evidence to enforce it, just like there was no evidence linking Saddam and WMDs, but again, opinion can be factually inaccurate. My extrapolation that you were talking about nuclear weapons was becase the sentence right after that you said Iran was stockpiling weapons (but then again...who doesn't? If you're building them, but not stockpiling them, then that means you're using them...which is worse than just storing them...right?)

But in addition to this, why shouldn't Iran be able to build non-nuclear weapons and store them? Everyone else in the region, enemy and friend, do or did.

Is the US a humanitarian country in your opinion? I just ask because the US has killed many thousand times more people than Iran has. I don't say that to slam America, because I think we are pretty damn humanitarian, but you can't factually pick and choose which is a noble or evil killing.


2. There is no need to be sarcastic, or naive.

You mean like saying all the Islamic countries want to kill us? I just want to make sure I understand what we're not supposed to be naive about.

There may not be any need to stop the presses, but to ramp up these exercises when they are already a sore spot with supporting Hamas and other terrorist organizations doesnt put out a lot of good will.

So again, with leaks out about Israel potentially planning an attack on Iranian soil, you would consult the Iranian government by telling them not to prepare for an attack, not to have a trained military, and not to "ramp up" exercises in case the fit hits the shan? Interesting.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Israel_relations read up on their funding on Hamas, nothing like a good old fashion Jihad for the kiddies. Supporting an organization that is trying to wipe out Israel is pretty damning, looking forward to your response. I suppose is Israel's fault for wanting to co-exist? There are also no gays in Iran, did you know?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lot-kill-Saudi-ambassador-Washington-D-C.html

...? That was quite a shotgun response. You sent a lot of stuff at the target there, but I don't think much of it hit. Hamas fires rockets into Israel. OK. Agreed. It's bad, they are heinous attacks, they should stop immediately if they expect to be taken seriously. When have I defended them? Does this mean that Israel is in the clear? Dear God no!

Shall I insert a half dozen links here detailing out multiple incidents of war crimes, and International Law violations by Israel? Hamas isn't even a country, they are a political party! Please don't tell me that you're ignorant of the fact that Israel is guilty in this feud as well.

As far as no gays in Iran...uh...ok. That's not usually the first stat I consider when I'm looking at foreign policy and international conflict, but uh...I suppose...oh hell, I don't have a clue what you're getting at with that one.

In response to your Iran tries to kill Saudi dude link, would you like me to post the one where Israel does kill a senior member of Hamas in the UAE, entirely illegally?

There is a lot of talk of an Iran-Israel conflict and whose military do you think will strike first and who will be in defense. Hint Netanyahu pleads for peace talks while Ahmadinejad is known for well all this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel He's a swell guy, probably hard to buy a gift for, maybe Seinfeld on DVD?

I want a second circumcision if it means you'll read a Goddamn book and educate yourself on this. Are you really using Bibi as your example for pacificm in the face of conflict? Dial up to AOL and read up on ole' Netanyahu a little more, friend. And who do I think will strike first? Israel. Absolutely and positively. Did you even read the first post in this thread? Spying is an act of aggression.

3. Your Jewish, just a little, that's adorable. It's on this site, it's all over, I see it at work and even those wacky occupy people love it, that is when they aren't burning American flags They are blamed for nearly every conspiracy, believe me I'm not Jewish but I see it everywhere and I'm not exactly looking for it.

...Shalom? Does that make me a self-hating, miniscule-percentage Jew? You honestly believe that everyone who is critical of Israel is an anti-semite? Then what are the people who are Jewish and are critical of the country?! WTF man. I normally rail hard against people for making personal attacks about the intelligence of posters on these forums, but you're testing my patience with your utter lack of knowledge on this topic. Please, for the love of God, read a book from a contrarian perspective which lists out countless documents and facts. The Iron Wall by Avi Shlaim was the one I suggested earlier in this thread. And before you get all indignant and tell me to do the same, that Jewish prof that I admire so much, fought in the Intifadah for the IDF (Israeli military), so STFU.

And your Occupy link? What the hell dude? What does that have to do with anything? I personally despise those Occupy creeps. Did someone elect them as decision makers or something? If not, then a couple of weirdos in a fringe anarchist group means jack squat in terms of world politics.

4. Blame support for Israel on our government officials. Then again we give out so much foreign aid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid why not help them defend themselves if they are peaceful and basically surrounded by ignorant people who want to take back "their" land.

I do strongly blame our government officials for their support of Israel. It's one-sided, it's bad policy, it's created generations of animosity towards the US, and it makes all American's lives slightly less safe. They are recipient to more aid than any other country throughout our history. That does not make sense and we'll never have peace for as long as that continues.

5. Why don't you go to each of those countries with a Hawaiin shirt on an American flag and see how long you last :) They don't all hate us, maybe that was an overstatement but don't fool yourself into believeing that we are not well like based on a lot of the PR we get overseas. It's not like everyone speaks as one, each person over there is going to have an opinion

I've been to three of "those countries", in jeans and polo shirts. I was invited as a stranger, off the street to dine with people and treated like a local celebrity because people were so excited to use their broken English with me, and talk to an American. The overwhelming majority of people that I talked with pleaded with me to help them come to the US. They watched Baywatch on their sattelites, and watched Seinfeld at night.

You're too naive to realize this, as evidenced by your earlier statements, but the people who live in a country, do not necessarily believe in their government's policies. You need to separate the general population from the handful of newsmakers that Fox and Friends shows you while you have your bowl of cereal in the morning.

6 Yes not all Christians get along, not all whites get along not all Canadians get along, not all athesits get along, not all occupy protestors get along, not all politicans get along, not all kids on the playground get along, not all family gets along, shall I go on? When people strap on a bomb and blow themselves up in a crowded market I think you crossed a line and missed the point of your religion. Tolerance is a very finite human emotion.

I hope I expanded on some of my "opinions" for you and likewise please don't think that your limited view of the world is fact either.

Wait a sec, you said "But then again, the Sunni's and Shiite's can't even get along without killing each other so I guess peace is going to have to come by force" and now you're saying nobody gets along. So should whites, canadians, atheists, occupiers, politicians, kids, and families all have peace by force? Do you see how inconsistent and insane your statements sound yet? You apply one criteria to Muslims, then fail to apply it to anyone else, even when using your same friggin analogy?

My earlier post had muliple credible links to backup my claims, so far you have continued with opinionated ramblings, or non-sequitor comments about the Occupy degenerates. Feel free to pride yourself on that.

I merely have international experience, direct connections to the region, a bookcase filled with writings on the area, and tons of facts to base my analysis on. You?...breakfast entertainment.
 
bread's done
Back
Top