Our friend Kaz: "I wish (Microsoft) would come up with some strategies of their own."

KaneRobot

KaneRobot

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Preface - before this gets really out of control - this ain't a "fanboy for (console X)" thread. I'll gladly add anything to the list people come up with on either side, as long as it's a legitimate point and not totally grasping at straws. I already have added a couple suggestions as seen below.

What I DON'T like - and the reason I posted this - are these corporate PR pricks like Kaz, Peter, and Reggie who can't open their mouth without either telling us what we do and don't want, or outright lying to us. Can't say I'd be sad to see any or all of them put on a rocket headed for the sun.

[quote name='Kaz Hirai in PS Magazine, via Kotaku']Every time we go down a path, we look behind and they're right there - we just can't shake these guys. I wish that they would come up with some strategies of their own, but they seem to be going down the path of everything we do. If you look at their strategy in other business areas as well, they tend to do that.[/quote]

How.

How can these corporate shill idiots make statements like that and be serious? I don't think I could handle that job, I'd always start laughing as soon as I said something like that. Yes, the last sentence has some validity to it (Vista swiping stuff from Macs), but the XBox and PC divisions there are two totally seperate entities. It's not like Sony doesn't make a wide variety of products.

Since the XBox's debut, let's see who has borrowed what...for better or worse:

Sony adds pack-in/mandatory hard drive to PS3 console, originally done by Microsoft for the XBox.
Sony releases two SKUs for the PS3, originally done by Microsoft on the 360.
Sony releases built-in broadband adapter for for PS3, originally done by Microsoft on the XBox.
Sony creates "all in one" online service for PS3, originally done by Microsoft for the XBox.
Sony touts its online services (music/video/demo/etc downloads), originally done by Microsoft for the 360.
Sony adds rewards for achieving stuff in games, originally done by Microsoft for the 360.
Sony makes wireless controller the pack-in standard, originally done by Microsoft for the 360.
Sony makes a tilt-sensitive gamepad, originally done by Microsoft for a Sidewinder gamepad (not to mention Sony obviously doing it to try to steal Nintendo's thunder)
Microsoft's adds hi-def disc player to the 360, originally done by Sony for the PS3.
Microsoft adds camera to the 360, originally done by Sony for the PS2.


Can't wait for the response from the other side, where I'm sure instead of making a simple comment about what Sony has borrowed from them, Moore (or whoever) will say something ridiculous.



*Edit* - Added tilt controller note above.

*Edit 2* - Removed DVD functionality from list, as it's a given that Microsoft was going to use DVD technology, PS2 or not. Added the 360 Vision camera apeing the Eyetoy (thanks Stuka)

*Edit 3* - Reworded hard drive claim due to dispute over whether or not Sony intended to release a hard drive for the PS2 "all along." Also clarified broadband adapter claim.
 
Well technically Dreamcast did the broadband adapter first. And I don't really know if you can say MS lifted DVD functionality from PS2. What else were they going to use as a format?

Anyway what kills me is that 360 has been out for nearly 8 months now, PS3 is still 3-4 months away from launch, and yet MS is copying Sony?! I mean seriously, how? I'm not saying Kaz is wrong when he says that MS does that with Windows and shit like that, but I mean seriously, can anyone name one thing the 360 has lifted from Sony?

On the other hand, Sony is trying to do a carbon copy of Xbox Live and the Dashboard among other things. And I believe last I heard Sony has it's own achievements knock off as well. Then of course the motion sensing controller that Sony had to 'surprise' everyone with, even their own developers. These are the times I wish gaming journalists had some balls, but I guess in PSM you aren't going to get much arguement from the interviewers for saying something like that.
 
[quote name='Stuka']I'm not saying Kaz is wrong when he says that MS does that with Windows and shit like that, but I mean seriously, can anyone name one thing the 360 has lifted from Sony?[/quote]
Real Time We... ah, fuck it, you know the rest.
 
These Sony guys can't go a day without throwing some asinine quote out there. It's like they are trying to one up each other in the most ridiculous quote they can get on a blog. I honestly wonder how much of what they are saying they actually believe.
 
Aren't these the same people who steal innovate everything that Nintendo does before them?

"We just can't shake these Nintendo guys... They put an analog stick in the controller, we put an analog stick in there. They put rumble in the controller, we put rumble in the controller. I wish they'd just give us something to use before they do!"
 
[quote name='Stuka']Well technically Dreamcast did the broadband adapter first.[/quote]
Good point....I guess it's a testament to its success failure that I actually OWNED it and still forgot....although Microsoft was the first to build it into the console.

And I don't really know if you can say MS lifted DVD functionality from PS2. What else were they going to use as a format?
Click to expand...
Honestly? I was stretching for stuff since I couldn't come up with anything that Sony did first. I wanted to even out the list as much as I could, that's the best I could do.
 
That yellow snowball is getting bigger and bigger.

You would almost think that they are doing this on purpose. :whistle2:k Hmmm, maybe they are. The average joe would listen to anything. :razz:

Think they would do much better if they stop trying to make everyone else look bad.
 
Well, to be fair, Sony was in the console business before MS, and there are rumors that MS is planning a handheld, which I would imagine will resemble the PSP more than a GB/DS (i.e. MS will likely throw everything in but the kitchen sink). No doubt MS examined Sony's experiences very closely before releasing the original Xbox, and many of MS's decisions probably sprung from that research, including, but not limited to, price-point. MS is now coming out with a camera for the 360, and while that can be seen as a natural extension of Xbox Live, it could also be considered a rip-off of the moderately successful Eyetoy, considering MS is not planning on using it just for videochat and picture taking, but also plans for it to be integrated into gameplay for some games.

Brining up the sidewinder is a bit of a stretch for two reasons. One, it was unsuccessful, and two, it was for a PC, not a console -- apples and apple-flavored oranges.
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']Since the XBox's debut, let's see who has borrowed what...for better or worse:

Sony adds hard drive to PS2 console, originally done by Microsoft for the XBox.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, this is a stretch. The first PS2 was basically designed around a 3.5" drive bay specifically for a hard disc drive... Granted it wasn't a pack-in like the Xbox but to act like Sony copied Microsoft on this one is a bit evangelistic.

Everybody copies everybody, and since Sony has been market leader for two console generations it's only common sense that SOME of what they've done right gets emulated by the other guys. And it's easy to call Microsoft out on copying other companies; Windows is obviously MacOS, etc. If Nintendo sells a zillion Wii (Wiis?) you can well imagine MS will figure out how to put tilt sensors into a 360 controller, too.
 
Well one good thing for M$ they didn't copy Sony on their god awful price point. I own a Playstation and a Playstation 2....but now I'm considering jumping to a 360 this gen....they must be doing something differently...
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']How does saying something like this actually help them in any way?[/QUOTE]

It doesn't. When Sony douchebags like Adam Sess-lar is left scratching his head over their behavior, you know they've lost their way.
 
I'm quite sure that I don't give a damn who stole what. Yes, people steal shit in the gaming industry. All I really care about is what games are on a system. fuck Kaz Hirai - I don't care what "strategies" were stolen from him.
 
[quote name='dratsacras']Sorry, this is a stretch. The first PS2 was basically designed around a 3.5" drive bay specifically for a hard disc drive... Granted it wasn't a pack-in like the Xbox but to act like Sony copied Microsoft on this one is a bit evangelistic.[/QUOTE]
I don't buy it. They didn't even announce a hard drive until well after it was known the XBox would have had one.

Look at it this way - if the XBox hadn't existed, would the PS2 hard drive have come out? Highly unlikely. The irony here is, for this round Sony is doing it right (hard drive with every system) and Microsoft screwed it up with their Core offering.

[quote name='Stuka']Well, now that you mention it I can definitely see the 360 camera as a ripoff of the Eyetoy.[/QUOTE]
Good point. Added to the list.

[quote name='guessed']and there are rumors that MS is planning a handheld[/quote]
Indeed - but because nothing has been launched or even announced yet, it shouldn't be looked at as something that's copying another product.


Brining up the sidewinder is a bit of a stretch for two reasons. One, it was unsuccessful, and two, it was for a PC, not a console -- apples and apple-flavored oranges.
Click to expand...
Apples and Granny Smith Apples?

That point is questionable, sure - but Sony claiming that Microsoft always copies them without fail is far more ridiculous than saying Sony borrowed from the Sidewinder w/ tilt. It's almost a given that they at least LOOKED at it (along with the Wii controller) while throwing together their last-minute tilt controller for E3. Whether you believe Sony's line about it "not being last minute" is another debate altogether.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']How does saying something like this actually help them in any way?[/quote]

Because there is no such thing as bad publisity.
 
Another Kaz quote (from joystiq):

I don't think consumers expect software pricing to suddenly double. So, the quick answer is that we want to make it as affordable as possible, knowing that there is a set consumer expectation for what software has cost for the past twelve years. That's kind of the best answer I can give you. So, if it becomes a bit higher than $59, don't ding me, but, again, I don't expect it to be $100
Click to expand...

I have a feeling this means $70 software. What a joke. There's NO WAY I'll EVER pay more than $50 for a game and that is only for top-tier-must-own-it-now games like a new Zelda or something. Sony is out of its fucking head.
 
[quote name='Mookyjooky']Because there is no such thing as bad publisity.[/quote]

People always say there is no such thing as bad publicity, but if it were true, someone would have marketed Hitler brand chewing gum by now.
 
[quote name='javeryh']Another Kaz quote (from joystiq):



I have a feeling this means $70 software. What a joke. There's NO WAY I'll EVER pay more than $50 for a game and that is only for top-tier-must-own-it-now games like a new Zelda or something. Sony is out of its fucking head.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='javeryh']
March
:360: Burnout Revenge [$63.59]
:360: Oblivion [$63.59] (traded for Guitar Hero + controller)

April
:360: Tomb Raider Legend [$63.59]
[/QUOTE]
Every time javery lies, a little kid sells crack :whistle2:(

But your point is taken ;)
 
[quote name='javeryh']I have a feeling this means $70 software. What a joke. There's NO WAY I'll EVER pay more than $50 for a game and that is only for top-tier-must-own-it-now games like a new Zelda or something. Sony is out of its fucking head.[/quote]

But people are already paying $70 for special edition 360 games. You aren't, most of us (CAGs) aren't, but a lot of people are. I did buy Oblivion Special Ed., although I used trade credit. Still, I did it, I admit it, and I will not apologize. When the revolution comes and Septim coins become the new world currency, you'll be sorry.
 
[quote name='botticus']Every time javery lies, a little kid sells crack :whistle2:(

But your point is taken ;)[/quote]

Oh shit - how quickly I forgot about that... (well worth it too). OK, starting ... riiiight... now - no more $60 games. :D
 
I agree that all 3 companies reps talk out their asses. But what I think Kaz was referring to was that Microsoft copied Sony by getting into the game console business to begin with.

If not for the phenomenal success Sony had with the PS1, winning the console 'war' with their first generation product, I doubt that Microsoft would have gotten into the console business to begin with.

Although thats really not 'continually' copying Sony as Kaz implies.
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']I don't buy it. They didn't even announce a hard drive until well after it was known the XBox would have had one.[/QUOTE]

Sony talked up 'future hard drive expandability' back when they were attempting to sabotage Dreamcast sales, a year before they launched PS2. What they ultimately released was an obvious disappointment in terms of integration to the system but to think that it never would have occurred to Sony to put a HD in had Xbox not come along is taking a short walk around history to make a presumed point.

Look at it this way - if the XBox hadn't existed, would the PS2 hard drive have come out? Highly unlikely.
Click to expand...

You can't know that. They had a linux kit out (for about a week) with a hard drive, they had lofty ambitions about PS2 becoming a DVD recorder/PVR (the PSX, an idea about 4 years premature for the market) as well as the standard HDD (released in Japan with, of all things, Bomberman Online.)

Sony designed the hardware with hard drive expandability in mind from the very beginning. What you're saying about "if Xbox never existed..." is moving the goalposts. This was about Sony "copying" Microsoft by adding a hard drive. I say the hard drive was on Sony's list all along, in one form or another.
 
Those of you holding your breath for even a fleeting moment of honesty and frankness from company spokespersons will find yourselves either sorely disappointed or dead.

Waiting for Kaz, Peter Moore, or even Reggie Fils-Aime to say something truthfully would be like waiting for Scott McClellan or Tony Snow to say "Oh, yeah, we fucked that up biiig time" to the White House Press Corps.

'Taint gonna happen.
 
[quote name='dratsacras']This was about Sony "copying" Microsoft by adding a hard drive. I say the hard drive was on Sony's list all along, in one form or another.[/QUOTE]

I still disagree - we would never have seen the hard drive on the PS2 if the XBox hadn't had it first. The way they barely supported it when it DID come out makes it seem like it was a reluctant release in the first place. The whole Linux thing was just Sony's way of trying to convince the right people it was "a computer" to avoid certain taxes - which is also what they're trying to do now.

Regardless, I've amended it to please you. Hard drive is now "mandatory/pack-in hard drive."
 
[quote name='dratsacras']This was about Sony "copying" Microsoft by adding a hard drive. I say the hard drive was on Sony's list all along, in one form or another.[/QUOTE]

I still disagree - we would never have seen the hard drive on the PS2 if the XBox hadn't had it first. The way they barely supported it when it DID come out makes it seem like it was a reluctant release in the first place. The whole Linux thing was just Sony's way of trying to convince the right people it was "a computer" to avoid certain taxes - which is also what they're trying to do now.

Regardless, I've amended it to take your comments into account. Hard drive is now "mandatory/pack-in hard drive."
 
To be fair, you're basically saying MS has all these newer ideas simply because their console came out first. There are very few things put into either MS console that is a true MS original and EVERYONE, I repeat everyone, in the industry has borrowed something from their competitors at some point, that has been going on for roughly 2 decades now. Now this isn't to say Kaz is not full of crap, he certainly is and is just like every PR guy in that respect, but if you go about looking at who copied who you can't pick and choose where that has happened. Why not go back and list all the things the xbox (and even the GC ) copied from the PS2 because that came out first?
 
Didn't Nintendo have a Gameboy camera? I remember hearing they had one and they wanted to make it where you could take your picture and put it into N64 games (I think), but it never happened.
 
Nintendo reps have, recently, admitted to mistakes with the Gamecube and other products, and they aren't exactly talking a lot of shit about their competitors on the levels Sony and MS are, so I'm not sure where the hate comes from.

True they are PR men, but a valid comparison beyond title alone is very difficult to make.
 
[quote name='guessed']People always say there is no such thing as bad publicity, but if it were true, someone would have marketed Hitler brand chewing gum by now.[/quote]

Check the Wondershowzen thread.
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']To be fair, you're basically saying MS has all these newer ideas simply because their console came out first. There are very few things put into either MS console that is a true MS original and EVERYONE, I repeat everyone, in the industry has borrowed something from their competitors at some point, that has been going on for roughly 2 decades now. Now this isn't to say Kaz is not full of crap, he certainly is and is just like every PR guy in that respect, but if you go about looking at who copied who you can't pick and choose where that has happened. Why not go back and list all the things the xbox (and even the GC ) copied from the PS2 because that came out first?[/QUOTE]

But to go out and say Microsoft outright has been copying Sony from day 1 and is still doing it. Sony Hirai's entire attitude to the next generation of consoles is so infuriating. Later on in the interview he says how he thought it was more important to show the "games" (video) at the E3 press conference then to "bore people with" the various pages and account management of the Sony Live service.

At this point, Sony should put a gag order on Kaz. He's perceived as the jackass of the video game industry. At least when Moore says something stupid (the backwards compatibility "overdelivered" comment) he sees and responds to the backlash that is given to him. I think Sony would be a lot more liked these days if Kaz wasn't the face of the PS3.
 
[quote name='furyk']But to go out and say Microsoft outright has been copying Sony from day 1 and is still doing it. Sony Kutaragi's entire attitude to the next generation of consoles is so infuriating. Later on in the interview he says how he thought it was more important to show the "games" (video) at the E3 press conference then to "bore people with" the various pages and account management of the Sony Live service.

At this point, Sony should put a gag order on Kutaragi. He's perceived as the jackass of the video game industry. At least when Moore says something stupid (the backwards compatibility "overdelivered" comment) he sees and responds to the backlash that is given to him. I think Sony would be a lot more liked these days if Kutaragi wasn't the face of the PS3.[/QUOTE]
Well, this is Kaz Harai, but he basically takes jackass lessons directly from Kutaragi.
 
[quote name='Strell']Nintendo reps have, recently, admitted to mistakes with the Gamecube and other products, and they aren't exactly talking a lot of shit about their competitors on the levels Sony and MS are, so I'm not sure where the hate comes from.

True they are PR men, but a valid comparison beyond title alone is very difficult to make.[/quote]

Agreed. Nintendo's stance has of late has been along the lines of "We dont care what our competitors are doing, heres what were doing." The right attitude to take imo.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Those of you holding your breath for even a fleeting moment of honesty and frankness from company spokespersons will find yourselves either sorely disappointed or dead.

Waiting for Kaz, Peter Moore, or even Reggie Fils-Aime to say something truthfully would be like waiting for Scott McClellan or Tony Snow to say "Oh, yeah, we fucked that up biiig time" to the White House Press Corps.

'Taint gonna happen.[/QUOTE]

I agree, it's their job to hype us up for their console. It would make any sense for Reggie to say, "If you want great graphics, then avoid our console and go buy a 360 or PS3" or for Kaz to say, "Yeah, we know Blu-Ray isn't perfect and that there's a good chance of it failing" or something of the like.

[quote name='Strell']Nintendo reps have, recently, admitted to mistakes with the Gamecube and other products, and they aren't exactly talking a lot of shit about their competitors on the levels Sony and MS are, so I'm not sure where the hate comes from.

True they are PR men, but a valid comparison beyond title alone is very difficult to make.[/QUOTE]

There's some truth there. I think Nintendo started to realize that as it stands, nobody other than Nintendo fans really give a damn about Nintendo. So why keep fooling yourself? It took them long enough but at least they're atoning for their sins.:lol:
 
[quote name='crazytalkx']Eesh, they've been shooting themselves in the foot way too much.[/QUOTE]

Foot? Foot?

More like head.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']How does saying something like this actually help them in any way?[/quote]

It did when Sony was lying left and right about the Playstation 2 when the Dreamcast was released. You'd be amazed by going back and reading some of the stuff that was promised and mostly everything turned out to be a big-ass lie.

People were so gullible and believed everything Sony said and waited for the PS2 when they could have had a much better experience with a Dreamcast.
 
To be fair I guess you could say MS "stole" backwards compatibility too. I don't really consider most of these to be stealing or copying an idea, except for the motion sensor controller which seems obvious, rather they are adding features that should be added normally to a new console.

If these companies didn't try to steal each others ideas then we would be getting half-assed consoles with only some or parts of different features.
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']*Edit 3* - Reworded hard drive claim due to dispute over whether or not Sony intended to release a hard drive for the PS2 "all along." Also clarified broadband adapter claim.[/QUOTE]

I have some information regarding this.

I worked for Sony at the time Microsoft announced the built in hard drive for Xbox. I can't remember if MS made the announcement during E3 or GDC that year, but I can tell you SONY did NOT intend the hard drive to be a major part of the PS2 gaming experience. In fact, the day MS made the announcement, Sony execs suddenly called a meeting to discuss their "response" to the news. (Office talk suggested that this meeting was quite heated and frantic.)

If you look back to when the MS announcement was made you will remember that the PS2 had already been released in Japan. The external PS2 hard drive unit had been announced but there wasn't much more information available on its purpose. The result of the meeting by Sony Execs was the PS2 that was eventually released in America; the version WITHOUT the PCMCIA slot and the new Internal Hard Drive Bay in its place.

One could further surmise that the PS2 Hard Drive was indeed an afterthought or a reactionary inclusion simply based on the lack of support for Hard Drive features in the games that were released for PS2. Hell, even the release of the slim PS2 screams afterthought.

I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire but rather give insight to those of you who weren't, for lack of a better phrase,"on the inside" when that all went down.

[quote name='lionheart4life']To be fair I guess you could say MS "stole" backwards compatibility too.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't Atari the first company to do true BC with the Atari 7800? If so, then both companies "stole" the idea. :D
 
Look, the video game industry survives a great deal off of taking exitisting things and making them better. If some rep for a company wants to bitch and point fingers, let them. I'm just saying that we all benefit from Sony 'stealing' Nintendo's joystick, Microsoft 'stealing' Sony's camera, and so on.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']Look, the video game industry survives a great deal off of taking exitisting things and making them better. If some rep for a company wants to bitch and point fingers, let them. I'm just saying that we all benefit from Sony 'stealing' Nintendo's joystick, Microsoft 'stealing' Sony's camera, and so on.[/quote]

Exactly - we all benefit when this technology is taken and improved.

Which is why the lawyers and small parasitical lawsuit-happy companies are already hard at work on a way to screw it all up. After all, it's a system where we all benefit because the companies actually have to work harder to wow the consumer with truly cutting-edge tech - we can't have that! More poorly defined tech patents, lobbyist-inspired IP legislation, and DRM for everyone! Goooooooo Immersion!

http://www.aussie-nintendo.com/?v=news&p=3665

According to a story on 1UP, vibration company, Immersion, will be keeping a watchful eye on Nintendo's revolutionary Wii-mote, which introduces Nintendo's own version of vibration feedback in a wireless controller.

Immersion previously sued Sony after its PS2 controllers utilised the company's patented technology. As a result, Sony has been forced to pay the partly Microsoft-owned company more than US$90M in royalties.

Nintendo's controllers and handheld devices have always used its own original 'rumble' technology. Immersion says that they "could've helped" Nintendo with its wireless WaveBird controller, "But they didn't ask."

No doubt Nintendo has spent much time and effort ensuring that its technology is 100% its own, to eliminate any potential risk.
Click to expand...

Ahhh extortion, you gotta love it!
 
[quote name='Stuka']Well technically Dreamcast did the broadband adapter first.[/quote]



I belive the dreamcast had a dial up adapter.

Oh well at least somebody remebers my beloved dreamcast.
:)
 
[quote name='daphatty']I can tell you SONY did NOT intend the hard drive to be a major part of the PS2 gaming experience.[/QUOTE]

Well, they certainly lived up to internal expectations for that, then. :lol:

EDIT: Deadlite, they did release a broadband adapter for the DC, but it was late into the console's life and only available through Sega, I believe. It may still well fetch a jaw-dropping sum on eBay.
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']To be fair, you're basically saying MS has all these newer ideas simply because their console came out first. There are very few things put into either MS console that is a true MS original and EVERYONE, I repeat everyone, in the industry has borrowed something from their competitors at some point, that has been going on for roughly 2 decades now. Now this isn't to say Kaz is not full of crap, he certainly is and is just like every PR guy in that respect, but if you go about looking at who copied who you can't pick and choose where that has happened. Why not go back and list all the things the xbox (and even the GC ) copied from the PS2 because that came out first?[/QUOTE]

I Don't think that was the point, What I get from it is were in the hell is Sony (the most arrogent of all consumer electronic companies) get off saying this . I think we are all in agreement that all companies not just in gaming but all industries "steal" ideas (I could go into a rant about outdated patent laws but I digress) however to come out and make a statement like that is just mind boggling to me. But in the end its all PR and the sad part is it works on a huge number of people who unlike most caggers are less informed. The fact is the damn PS3 cost too much , They (sony) know it so they have to play it up like this to make it seem like all the R and D is playing into the cost.
 
"copying" happens in every type of business.....think about coca cola and pepsi....both have the same exact flavors. one makes lemon the other follows suit. i could go on and on with different examples of one company "copying" anothers ideas. computers, web sites, teh list goes on and on...

and besides, as already stated, this guy is full of shit. it's not like sony hasn't stolen ideas from others. if you really believe that than you are also full of shit.

i wish all the companies would stop complaining about each other and start promoting their own damn product...i hate it when radio stations talk about how they play fewer commercials than the other stations and i hate it when companies bitch about other companies "stealing" "their" ideas...you sell lots of shit you're gonna get your ideas stolen. get used to it already.

[quote name='daphatty']Wasn't Atari the first company to do true BC with the Atari 7800? If so, then both companies "stole" the idea. [/QUOTE]

Then I guess Nintendo, Sony, and MS stole it. Technically.
 
[quote name='deadlite']I belive the dreamcast had a dial up adapter.

Oh well at least somebody remebers my beloved dreamcast.
:)[/QUOTE]

It also had an optional BB Adapter though.
 
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