Pace U. Koran Flushing and Hate Crimes

Right, I'll make this short and sweet. We all heard about it. Pace U. student flushes stolen Koran from library. Now is charged with felony hate crime. Now, THESIS TIME!

Judiciary-types could actually cut me off at the knees relatively easily when it comes to this hate crime stuff. As a legal conservative, stare decisis, et al... I'm bound to a certain respect for the laws as written until I can push to change them. Hence, hate crimes laws. If these things were ACTUALLY prosecuted with a reasonable degree of "equal protection," they'd have me by the balls. Sure, I can bitch unconstitutionality, but if the judiciary isn't overturning them, or if I can't get the legislature to repeal them, I'm fucked.

Then again, unless Pace U. regularly calls in the hate crime squad when leftists deface conservative posters, et al, I'm on fairly safe ground here.

Equal protection arguments on hate crimes are old and pretty much settled though, there is much more interesting ground to be tilled here.

It is easy as pie to tack on a "hate crime" to a murderer already getting life. Judges don't think twice about it.

But what we have here is a college-prank misdemeanor. Something that, yes, is a crime (In fact, the only thing that opens the kid to liability here is that he did it with a library Koran), buuuut... that crime would likely never see the light of day. The only aspect being charged here, and thus making the crime a felony, is the 'hate' aspect. Making the "thoughtcrime" label stick quite easily.

Unless felonies are usually handed out for
 
Everyone knows terrorists hate freedom, but our government hates freedom more because we're afraid of what the terrorists will do if they see you having freedom.

That pretty much sums up my argument. I sincerely pray all this shit ends with the Bush Administration.

~HotShotX
 
[quote name='HotShotX']That pretty much sums up my argument. I sincerely pray all this shit ends with the Bush Administration.[/quote]

Those prayers will likely go unanswered, I'm sorry to say.
 
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous for the kid to be charged with a 'hate' crime. It's unbelievable how white establishment types are so overly sensitive to this kind of thing. Can you imagine if the kid had flushed a Christian Bible? Not a damn thing would have happened. I wish white people weren't so terrified to look 'racist'.
 
[quote name='dragonreborn23']Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous for the kid to be charged with a 'hate' crime. It's unbelievable how white establishment types are so overly sensitive to this kind of thing. Can you imagine if the kid had flushed a Christian Bible? Not a damn thing would have happened. I wish white people weren't so terrified to look 'racist'.[/quote]

you gotta love white guilt. i dont see any problem with charging this kid with vandalism or destroying school property, something like that which would likely just be a fine... but a hate crime? cmon!
 
The problem, I think, is a lack of common sense, not one of unfair or flawed applications of the law. It's really no different, to my eyes, than that 17 year old being charged as a sex offender for having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend -- the law against pedophiles is a good one, but it wasn't sensibly implemented. So too are the hate crime laws here. I don't think there's anything wrong with the overall series of events, but I think a felony is a bit harsh. Then again, if we're going to talk about well-intentioned laws being imperfect, we can talk "three strike" drug laws until the cows come home, among many, many other examples.

[quote name='RollingSkull']Then again, unless Pace U. regularly calls in the hate crime squad when leftists deface conservative posters, et al, I'm on fairly safe ground here.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure about this, but I don't know that political parties are protected in exactly the same ways religious groups (et al) are. We've done a pretty good job on singling out and discriminating against communists, black panthers, and worker's parties in our time. I, of course, disagree with that, but I suspect that there's a better legal basis for why it was acceptable than "We just REALLY REALLY hate them." However, I can honestly say I've never thought about this before now, so I reserve the right to back-peddle on a moment's notice.

[quote name='RollingSkull']Unless Pace U. is home to a lot of Jihadi sleeper cells, someone would have to be quite daft to see positive utility in displaying disregard for American Muslims, folks who, apart from my general hatred of all minorities inherent to my being a conservative, I have had no reason to dislike any more than any other color of folks (Except... ... ... Jews.).[/QUOTE]

Heh. And here I thought you had some old-school conservative in you -- aren't you supposed to just hate poor blacks? But I kid, of course.

[quote name='RollingSkull']Another aspect, it was asserted (Fairly unconvincingly in my opinion) the last time I was here on the topic of hate crimes that the 'hate' that makes the crime so much more severe is that it is meant to 'intimidate' a large group of people. I'd like to see who will be the first to tell me that the best way to intimidate people is to put a book in a toilet.[/QUOTE]

This is the only part I'd particularly disagree with. A simple trespassing and misdemeanor arson charge doesn't cover the damage done from burning a cross on someone's front lawn. Someone painting a swastika on your door isn't the same as the ol' flaming bag of poop trick. Again: common sense. And anyway, since when is "effectiveness" ("...the best way to intimidate people...") a factor? "Well, he just wasn't a very good criminal ... so let him off lightly."

[quote name='RollingSkull']Right then, let's summarize. Put a Koran that you own in a toilet? No crime. Put a university library book (non-Koran) in a toilet? Misdemeanor. Likely disciplinary action from university rather than jail time. Put a university library Koran in a toilet? Felony, 4 years, for your 'hatred'.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'll reuse my example from above: paint a symbol on your own wall? It's art. Paint a symbol on somebody else's wall? Misdemeanor for graffiti and a couple hours of public service. Paint a swastika on the door of a temple? Yeah, that's a step up. Maybe not "deserves four years" up, but up. Does anyone really, really, think it's the same?

[quote name='dragonreborn23']Can you imagine if the kid had flushed a Christian Bible? Not a damn thing would have happened.[/QUOTE]

I could say "Can you imagine if the kid had flushed a bible? They would have touched his private parts and dragged him behind a pick-up" but that would be fairly speculative, wouldn't it? Bring a specific example. Your own idea of what might have happened doesn't count for much.
 
[quote name='trq']The problem, I think, is a lack of common sense, not one of unfair or flawed applications of the law. It's really no different, to my eyes, than that 17 year old being charged as a sex offender for having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend -- the law against pedophiles is a good one, but it wasn't sensibly implemented. So too are the hate crime laws here. I don't think there's anything wrong with the overall series of events, but I think a felony is a bit harsh. Then again, if we're going to talk about well-intentioned laws being imperfect, we can talk "three strike" drug laws until the cows come home, among many, many other examples.[/quote]
I'd like to think we all understand that laws are not supposed to be "well-intentioned." Feel-good policy is usually BAD policy. The thing here is that I believe 100% that hate-crime legislation is not constitutional nor is it applied equally. You are, in essence, charging for a thoughtcrime.

I'm not sure about this, but I don't know that political parties are protected in exactly the same ways religious groups (et al) are. We've done a pretty good job on singling out and discriminating against communists, black panthers, and worker's parties in our time. I, of course, disagree with that, but I suspect that there's a better legal basis for why it was acceptable than "We just REALLY REALLY hate them." However, I can honestly say I've never thought about this before now, so I reserve the right to back-peddle on a moment's notice.
I'm not wed to the political parties example. I could just throw out thought exercises of Bibles in toilets or thuggish minority types targetting a white man because he is white.

Or the odds of thuggish white types targetting a black man because he looks like he has money NOT being charged with hate crimes.

Heh. And here I thought you had some old-school conservative in you -- aren't you supposed to just hate poor blacks? But I kid, of course.
A bit of irony for you: The old lefties used to say that preventing genocide, taking down dictators... etc was worth having our troops abroad, whereas the old conservatives, paleocons if you will, used to be all for the isolationism and foreign policy pragmatism ("They need a strong man to keep them in line; may as well be our strongman.") preached now by modern lefties.

EDIT: Also, paleocons used to be big-time distrusters of the Jewish lobby, too.

This is the only part I'd particularly disagree with. A simple trespassing and misdemeanor arson charge doesn't cover the damage done from burning a cross on someone's front lawn. Someone painting a swastika on your door isn't the same as the ol' flaming bag of poop trick. Again: common sense. And anyway, since when is "effectiveness" ("...the best way to intimidate people...") a factor? "Well, he just wasn't a very good criminal ... so let him off lightly."
Which, again, runs afoul of what the laws actually state: That you commit a hate crime simply by choosing your target based on a protected category.

The fact that, say, environmentalist types who slash the tires and break the windows of a neighbor's Hummer or leftist collegiate types slashing tires and harassing recruiters don't get the same treatment speaks volumes to me.

Hate crimes are the only instance where we punish someone for a specific reason for commiting the crime. Up until now, we have only focused on premeditation and self-defense.

What is different between a bag of dog poop and a swastika? Both are committed against individuals who are disliked. The only difference is the thoughts held by the criminals. You are STILL punishing people for their thoughts, which is simply not how the legal system should work. Any crime against person for a specific characteristic can be said to be done to discourage all people with that characteristic. Do you single out racists for crimes they might commit in the future? That is another pit the legal system should avoid.

Well, I'll reuse my example from above: paint a symbol on your own wall? It's art. Paint a symbol on somebody else's wall? Misdemeanor for graffiti and a couple hours of public service. Paint a swastika on the door of a temple? Yeah, that's a step up. Maybe not "deserves four years" up, but up. Does anyone really, really, think it's the same?
Explain the differences to me in terms of how the legal system should apply a heavier penalty for what the criminal thought in committing the crime and choosing his target. Our legal system is one of precendence to avoid judicial overreach, so any legal reasoning you could provide would be immensely helpful.

I could provide the link to the hummer slashing story if it would help (The thugs got away.), and... if you REALLY wanted, I could dig up the military tire slashing story, but it would take a lot of time. The person there was charged, but not with a hate crime.

If you could talk about the difference between the latter and a swastika on a church and a flaming bag of dog poop on a teacher who wronged you... all that would be nice, because I don't see the difference in a way that should cause the law to react differently.

I could say "Can you imagine if the kid had flushed a bible? They would have touched his private parts and dragged him behind a pick-up" but that would be fairly speculative, wouldn't it? Bring a specific example. Your own idea of what might have happened doesn't count for much.
Well, I imagine the kid would have gotten a scolding for damaging school property, but I would like to see if there has ever been a hate crime prosecuted where the criminal picked his target because the target was Christian. SURELY you don't think it is unreasonable to assume that such cases are slim to none.
 
He flushed a LIBRARY book?

Little fucker should be torn apart by dogs. Hand him over to the muslims and let them have their way with him.



And lol @ stupid people suggesting ANYTHING would have happened had he flushed a bible.
 
Put a university library Koran in a toilet? Felony, 4 years, for your 'hatred'.

Well it is still burning books

Burning a libarary book

Burning a libarary book from a college

Burning a libarary book from a college university

Burning a libarary book from a college university that is Religious material.

Wait what is worst is that the person exposed and flushed a libarary book from a college university that is Religious material in human waste waters.

That is like me burning a parchment of the ten commandments after Moses showed them to us and then taking a leak to put out the flames.

Or to a videogamer throwing a boxed new game into a pile of poop and then being told to fetch it.
 
That is like me burning a parchment of the ten commandments after Moses showed them to us and then taking a leak to put out the flames.

Well, Moses showed the ten commandments to "us" on stone tablets. You'd have a hard time burning them, I think ;).
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']Which, again, runs afoul of what the laws actually state: That you commit a hate crime simply by choosing your target based on a protected category.

The fact that, say, environmentalist types who slash the tires and break the windows of a neighbor's Hummer or leftist collegiate types slashing tires and harassing recruiters don't get the same treatment speaks volumes to me.[/QUOTE]

This would tie back in to political parties not really being a constitutionally protected group, no? With the understanding that free speech be applied across the board, I'm not sure how I feel about political alignment being treated with the same gravity as the color of your skin, though again, I admit this is only a cursory examination.

[quote name='RollingSkull']Hate crimes are the only instance where we punish someone for a specific reason for commiting the crime. Up until now, we have only focused on premeditation and self-defense.[/QUOTE]

Not true. First off, premeditation has as much to do with the reasoning behind the crime (anger at a lover cheating vs. cold-blooded murder for insurance money) as the preparation involved. Heck, why is premeditation even a factor? Isn't the offense exactly the same, whether or not you think out the results of your actions? Thought crime!

Secondly, there's no such thing as a hate crime, absent any other offense. It's entirely a mechanic to deliver a harsher sentence. So an obvious comparison would be all the cop-killer laws, or the laws that make assaulting government employees a federal offense. Beyond that, the reason behind the crime is always a factor in sentencing. To trot out an old chestnut, a man who steals to feed his family is sentenced much more leniently than a man who steals simply for fun or for luxuries.

[quote name='RollingSkull']What is different between a bag of dog poop and a swastika? Both are committed against individuals who are disliked. The only difference is the thoughts held by the criminals. You are STILL punishing people for their thoughts, which is simply not how the legal system should work. Any crime against person for a specific characteristic can be said to be done to discourage all people with that characteristic. Do you single out racists for crimes they might commit in the future? That is another pit the legal system should avoid.[/QUOTE]

And how do you feel about terrorism? The defining characteristic (according to the Department of Defense) is that it is intended to send a message. Absent the thoughts of the terrorists who are trying to elicit a response of some sort, terrorism is nothing more than run of the mill violent crime, distinguishable from all other sorts only through criminalizing certain thoughts.

[quote name='RollingSkull']Explain the differences to me in terms of how the legal system should apply a heavier penalty for what the criminal thought in committing the crime and choosing his target. Our legal system is one of precendence to avoid judicial overreach, so any legal reasoning you could provide would be immensely helpful.[/QUOTE]

We absolutely differentiate. We always have and we always will. There's a reason our legal system is made up of people, and not a Judge-O-Matic 9000: so that when a 300 lb man punches a 90 year old woman and takes her $200 pension check, he's treated more harshly than a nineteen year old kid who decks a classmate and grabs his PSP. Common sense. The severity of the crime isn't the same, though it's the exact same crime.

[quote name='RollingSkull']If you could talk about the difference between the latter and a swastika on a church and a flaming bag of dog poop on a teacher who wronged you... all that would be nice, because I don't see the difference in a way that should cause the law to react differently.[/QUOTE]

What's the difference between telling a buddy you're going to kill them and telling that to a stranger? Context. Your friend knows you, and besides the slim chance your friend is going to report you, what you were thinking ("I was kidding" v. "I was making a genuine threat, intended to intimidate") and your choice of target is the difference between "no crime at all" and a court date.

[quote name='RollingSkull']Well, I imagine the kid would have gotten a scolding for damaging school property, but I would like to see if there has ever been a hate crime prosecuted where the criminal picked his target because the target was Christian. SURELY you don't think it is unreasonable to assume that such cases are slim to none.[/QUOTE]

I do, in fact. I'd be a lot more surely about this response if I responded to the "Oe noes, dubble standardz!" peanut gallery, rather than to you directly, since you at least have a cogent thought process behind your arguments.

So. At least in 2004:

"... Slightly more than 20 percent (20.1) were victims of an anti-white bias ..."

and

"... an anti-Catholic bias provoked crimes against 4.3 percent. Victims of an anti-Protestant bias made up 3.0 percent of victims of hate crimes resulting from a religious bias ... "

and even

"... 2.4 percent were victimized because of an anti-heterosexual bias ..."

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/section1.htm

So please. I beg of non-RollingSkull posters: don't just make shit up, with the "Can you imagine if the kid had flushed a Christian Bible? Not a damn thing would have happened." and the "And lol @ stupid people suggesting ANYTHING would have happened had he flushed a bible."

Look shit up first. Otherwise you just look stupid. Really, really stupid.
 
[quote name='trq']This would tie back in to political parties not really being a constitutionally protected group, no? With the understanding that free speech be applied across the board, I'm not sure how I feel about political alignment being treated with the same gravity as the color of your skin, though again, I admit this is only a cursory examination.[/quote]
Well, if you ask me, given the irrational hatreds political disagreements can bring, I don't see why hate crime statutes SHOULDN'T defend political ideology. A case could be made; mostly though, I would like to see the logic in the exclusivity of the protected groups vs. the unprotected categorizations.

Not true. First off, premeditation has as much to do with the reasoning behind the crime (anger at a lover cheating vs. cold-blooded murder for insurance money) as the preparation involved. Heck, why is premeditation even a factor? Isn't the offense exactly the same, whether or not you think out the results of your actions? Thought crime!
I assume "preparation involved" was an inapt word choice on your part, because it just doesn't tie it back to hate crimes in a convincing way/

Secondly, there's no such thing as a hate crime, absent any other offense. It's entirely a mechanic to deliver a harsher sentence. So an obvious comparison would be all the cop-killer laws, or the laws that make assaulting government employees a federal offense. Beyond that, the reason behind the crime is always a factor in sentencing. To trot out an old chestnut, a man who steals to feed his family is sentenced much more leniently than a man who steals simply for fun or for luxuries.
Old chestnuts have no place in law. Cops and government employees are, as much as I am loathe to admit it, vital to the functioning of the government, and attacking them is, in essence, a direct blow to the forces that create law and order here.

Black people though?

Related, your initial statement is tough to defend seeing as the hate crime makes a misdemeanor a felony, making 100% of the jail time of this crime due to hate.

And how do you feel about terrorism? The defining characteristic (according to the Department of Defense) is that it is intended to send a message. Absent the thoughts of the terrorists who are trying to elicit a response of some sort, terrorism is nothing more than run of the mill violent crime, distinguishable from all other sorts only through criminalizing certain thoughts.
Yes, but terrorism isn't and shouldn't be a law enforcement issue, especially in today's climate... let me qualify that: terrorism wrought by a specific group of individuals with a shared mindset targetting a nation rather than a person. By and large, terrorists aren't citizens. The ones that are citizens for the express purposes of using the freedoms we grant citizens to undermine the nation. There is a difference here. The hate crimes are committed by citizens against other citizens, rather than targetting the government. Maybe this is me moving the goalposts, but I'll concede it to you if it puts me on more logically defensible ground: There is a difference between targetting the government and/or its officials and targetting any other citizen.

By the way, at least on the topic of Islamic terror, the goal isn't to "send a message" in the traditional, political sense. I'd like a link to that DoD thing... if you have it handy. It ain't a serious thing, but I don't like to see the forces fighting on my behalf using imprecise language. Pet peeve of mine; unwillingness to define the enemy,

We absolutely differentiate. We always have and we always will. There's a reason our legal system is made up of people, and not a Judge-O-Matic 9000: so that when a 300 lb man punches a 90 year old woman and takes her $200 pension check, he's treated more harshly than a nineteen year old kid who decks a classmate and grabs his PSP. Common sense. The severity of the crime isn't the same, though it's the exact same crime.
Is the former a felony whereas the latter a misdemeanor? Should the 300 lb man be forced to defend himself against charges of racism should he deck a black old lady instead of a white one?

What's the difference between telling a buddy you're going to kill them and telling that to a stranger? Context. Your friend knows you, and besides the slim chance your friend is going to report you, what you were thinking ("I was kidding" v. "I was making a genuine threat, intended to intimidate") and your choice of target is the difference between "no crime at all" and a court date.

So painting a swastika on your friend's door is just for kicks. A stranger's? Vandalism. A stranger who happens to be Jewish? You must now prove that you chose him at random and not because he was Jewish. That's just not the sort of legal principle I endorse.

I do, in fact. I'd be a lot more surely about this response if I responded to the "Oe noes, dubble standardz!" peanut gallery, rather than to you directly, since you at least have a cogent thought process behind your arguments.

Hey, I try not to attract them.

So. At least in 2004:

"... Slightly more than 20 percent (20.1) were victims of an anti-white bias ..."

and

"... an anti-Catholic bias provoked crimes against 4.3 percent. Victims of an anti-Protestant bias made up 3.0 percent of victims of hate crimes resulting from a religious bias ... "

and even

"... 2.4 percent were victimized because of an anti-heterosexual bias ..."

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/section1.htm

So please. I beg of non-RollingSkull posters: don't just make shit up, with the "Can you imagine if the kid had flushed a Christian Bible? Not a damn thing would have happened." and the "And lol @ stupid people suggesting ANYTHING would have happened had he flushed a bible."

Look shit up first. Otherwise you just look stupid. Really, really stupid.
Wow.

"67.8 percent were anti-Jewish, 13.0 percent were anti-Islamic"

That statement is so... so... ideology affirming.

BEWARE TEH ANTI ISLAMIC BACKLASH OH NOES OH NOES

Sorry, non-sequitur, but things that really bug me... really bug me. ;)

Back on topic, trq, I read that page and couldn't find if these were charges or convictions. It is easy as pie to charge someone with a hate crime, white or black, by accident of victim choice. Convictions where the hate crimes stuck would convince me more.
 
Ah HA! There we go. Finally found the text describing better than I can issues I have with hate crimes laws:

Quoth Eugene Volokh:
I recognize that one can draw some distinctions between these sorts of behavior, and that the law does sometimes properly consider people's motives (e.g., killing for money is treated differently from killing because one is in the heat of passion). But on balance, I think these distinctions aren't tremendously important in this case, and they're potentially quite troublesome, for at least three reasons:
  1. These political-motivation-focused laws unduly shift the focus of law enforcement and trials from people's behavior to people's motives; the police and the jury would end up spending a good deal of their time focusing on what the defendant's political views were, rather than just on what damage he did or didn't do -- not something that should happen if we can avoid it.
  2. Such laws also risk deterring constitutionally protected speech and organization mebership as well as unprotected violence. If you've heard about someone getting extra punishment because he did something out of a political motivation, then you might be quite reluctant to express that political view even if you don't plan on committing any crime -- if you somehow get caught up in a police investigation in the future, you don't want to be even suspected of being one of those "animal rights or ecological terrorist."

    [*]Finally, these laws undermine what should be the core moral message underlying the law: Don't damage or interfere with other people's property. That's what we should be teaching people -- don't mess with others' stuff, whether you're doing it for political reasons or other reasons.
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']Ah HA! There we go. Finally found the text describing better than I can issues I have with hate crimes laws:

Quoth Eugene Volokh:
[/LIST][/QUOTE]

1) We deal with motive; it increases charges or decreases charges. Your simple murder can include premeditation, it can include self-defense, and it can include involuntariness. I had a friend "murder" someone when he ran out in front of his car (he was trying to kill himself, and succeeded). I'd hate to think that, by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they would be lumped in with those who voluntarily murdered someone. As a matter of fact, the very concept of "justifiable homicide" involves *not* the overt action of murder by itself, but the context it takes place in, physically (e.g., your home) and temporally (e.g., you were being threatened with a knife). The world in which we live can not provide a linear equation that says "Sentence = Crime." If it were that simple, so as to have a list of preset sentences for each crime, then we wouldn't need half of the criminological people we do. We wouldn't need rehabilitation programs, or courts, or judges...in short, you're trying to turn human behavior into a quantifiable and constant treatment that it clearly cannot be (outside of science fiction); so, let's just put that "base the punishment on the action and the action alone" nonsense to rest.

2) Not even silly enough to be a slippery slope; pure conjecture, and not very good conjecture at that. No supportive evidence whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I'd like to point to the Ohio National Socialist's march through Toledo in October of 2005, and planned March through Cincinnati earlier this year as evidence (anecdotal, yes, I know, but that's 1 more than Volokh provides) that people have no fear of their free speech being taken away. So, this is lousy conjecture; it's so bad, it can't even be wrong.


3) That statement is not the law, it's what one wimpy libertarian's interpretation of the law *should be*. There are plenty of offenses that you and I could be charged with, right this moment, that don't violate that principle. If I have heroin, or if I'm smoking some marijuana, then I could be arrested. If I'm so stinking drunk that I can't stand, I run the risk of a PI. If I sit down on the street, back against the wall of a building, I'm loitering. There are ample status offenses that do nothing to harm anyone or their property (though each could be considered harmful by those "broken windows" criminologists), but are considered criminal violations. I'm afraid, thankfully, that we don't live in a society where Volokh has any say over official policy, so next time you want to quote him, please keep your skepticism in check.

I'm also fascinated how you so flippantly disregarded the UCR hate crimes stats (I have 2007 available, so if you really want, I can do a quick run-through for you) when they were shown to contradict your braying claims of no anti-Christian bias. :lol: That's what I love about the versus forum: the closest you'll ever get to "I was wrong about that" is "back on topic..." :lol:
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I had a friend "murder" someone when he ran out in front of his car (he was trying to kill himself, and succeeded). I'd hate to think that, by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they would be lumped in with those who voluntarily murdered someone.[/QUOTE]

Clearly this is "involuntary manslaughter" (at worst) and not "murder," no?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Clearly this is "involuntary manslaughter" (at worst) and not "murder," no?[/QUOTE]

Yes. That was my point precisely.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']1) We deal with motive; it increases charges or decreases charges. Your simple murder can include premeditation, it can include self-defense, and it can include involuntariness. I had a friend "murder" someone when he ran out in front of his car (he was trying to kill himself, and succeeded). I'd hate to think that, by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they would be lumped in with those who voluntarily murdered someone. As a matter of fact, the very concept of "justifiable homicide" involves *not* the overt action of murder by itself, but the context it takes place in, physically (e.g., your home) and temporally (e.g., you were being threatened with a knife). The world in which we live can not provide a linear equation that says "Sentence = Crime." If it were that simple, so as to have a list of preset sentences for each crime, then we wouldn't need half of the criminological people we do. We wouldn't need rehabilitation programs, or courts, or judges...in short, you're trying to turn human behavior into a quantifiable and constant treatment that it clearly cannot be (outside of science fiction); so, let's just put that "base the punishment on the action and the action alone" nonsense to rest.[/quote]
Yes, but none of those cases require the defendant to argue abstract motives. Justifiable, self-defense, those are all concrete situations that do not deal in abstractions such as the 'hatred' in the criminal's heart.

The rest I shall merely concede as poorly argued. After rereading, I felt the Volokh quote wasn't as effective as I had read at first, but I decided to give trq a chance to fire back, as he is one of the few good faith debaters on this forum. I figure if I let him take a swing at what I wrote and what Volokh wrote, it might even be convincing. (That and evanft had threadcrapped as he is wont to do, so I had to leave it up just to spite him.)

Didn't expect a vulture to swoop in with some snide derision for my leaving an easy target up.

I'm also fascinated how you so flippantly disregarded the UCR hate crimes stats (I have 2007 available, so if you really want, I can do a quick run-through for you) when they were shown to contradict your braying claims of no anti-Christian bias. :lol: That's what I love about the versus forum: the closest you'll ever get to "I was wrong about that" is "back on topic..." :lol:
Flippant? Good to see your skimming skills in top form, buddy. I read the stats and I didn't see if they were convictions or merely charges. Any crime wherein the victim is a different protected class can be charged with a hate crime. If I see proof that they are convictions, I will gladly say I'm wrong.

Of course I wouldn't want to get in the way of your haughty derision or anything.... not like you even read this far anyway.

Between everyone's bitching, doesn't intent count on why he flushed the book?

No. Not legally. As the text of the law states, the hate crime applies only if it can be shown that he chose his 'victim' on the basis of protected classes. You can argue intent all day long. The good happy feeling behind the law does indeed follow from what trq has asserted; that such crimes are done to intimidate a protected group, and thus should be treated more harshly, but it is simply not what the text of the laws states.
 
Your UCR response *was* flippant. You mentioned this:

Wow.

"67.8 percent were anti-Jewish, 13.0 percent were anti-Islamic"

That statement is so... so... ideology affirming.

BEWARE TEH ANTI ISLAMIC BACKLASH OH NOES OH NOES

in response to the UCR data, and that's it.

Now, taken from the UCR Hate Crime codebook, here's a long read on criteria for determining a hate crime. Enjoy it. In the meantime, I'm gonna toy around with some data and see if I can get any info on convictions for you.

III. CRITERIA OF HATE CRIME
A. Bias Motivation
The object of the data collection is to indicate whether the offender was motivated to
commit the offense because of his/her bias against a racial, religious, disability, sexual-orientation,
or ethnic/national origin group. Because of the difficulty of ascertaining the offender’s
subjective motivation, bias is to be reported only if investigation reveals sufficient objective facts
to lead a reasonable and prudent person to conclude that the offender’s actions were motivated,
in whole or in part, by bias. The specific types of bias to be reported follow:
Racial Bias: Disability Bias:
Anti-White Anti-Physical Disability
Anti-Black Anti-Mental Disability
Anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native
Anti-Asian/Pacific Islander Sexual-Orientation Bias:
Anti-Multi-Racial Group Anti-Male Homosexual (Gay)
Anti-Female Homosexual (Lesbian)
Religious Bias: Anti-Homosexual (Gay and
Lesbian)
Anti-Jewish Anti-Heterosexual
Anti-Catholic Anti-Bisexual
Anti-Protestant
Anti-Islamic (Moslem) Ethnicity/National Origin Bias:
Anti-Other Religion (Buddhism, Anti-Hispanic
Hinduism, Shintoism, etc.) Anti-Other Ethnicity/National Origin
Anti-Multi-Religious Group
Anti-Atheism/Agnosticism
B. Objective Evidence that the Crime was Motivated by Bias
An important distinction must be made when reporting a hate crime. The mere fact that
the offender is biased against the victim’s race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, and/or
ethnicity/national origin does not mean that a hate crime was involved. Rather, the offender’s
criminal act must have been motivated, in whole or in part, by his/her bias.
Because motivation is subjective, it is difficult to know with certainty whether a crime
was the result of the offender’s bias. Therefore, before an incident can be reported as a hate
crime, sufficient objective facts must be present to lead a reasonable and prudent person to
conclude that the offender’s actions were motivated, in whole or in part, by bias. While no
single fact may be conclusive, facts such as the following, particularly when combined, are
supportive of a finding of bias:
5
1. The offender and the victim were of different race, religion, disability, sexual
orientation, and/or ethnicity/national origin. For example, the victim was black and the offender
was white.
2. Bias-related oral comments, written statements, or gestures were made by the
offender which indicate his/her bias. For example, the offender shouted a racial epithet at the
victim.
3. Bias-related drawings, markings, symbols, or graffiti were left at the crime
scene. For example, a swastika was painted on the door of a synagogue.
4. Certain objects, items, or things which indicate bias were used. For example,
the offenders wore white sheets with hoods covering their faces or a burning cross was left in
front of the victim’s residence.
5. The victim is a member of a racial, religious, disability, sexual-orientation, or
ethnic/national origin group which is overwhelmingly outnumbered by other residents in the
neighborhood where the victim lives and the incident took place. This factor loses significance
with the passage of time; i.e., it is most significant when the victim first moved into the neighborhood
and becomes less and less significant as time passes without incident.
6. The victim was visiting a neighborhood where previous hate crimes were
committed against other members of his/her racial, religious, disability, sexual-orientation, or
ethnic/national origin group and where tensions remained high against his/her group.
7. Several incidents occurred in the same locality, at or about the same time, and
the victims were all of the same race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national
origin.
8. A substantial portion of the community where the crime occurred perceived
that the incident was motivated by bias.
9. The victim was engaged in activities promoting his/her race, religion, disability,
sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin. For example, the victim was a member of
the NAACP or participated in gay rights demonstrations.
10. The incident coincided with a holiday or a date of particular significance
relating to a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin, e.g., Martin
Luther King Day, Rosh Hashanah.
11. The offender was previously involved in a similar hate crime or is a hategroup
member.
12. There were indications that a hate group was involved. For example, a hate
group claimed responsibility for the crime or was active in the neighborhood.
13. A historically established animosity existed between the victim’s and the
offender’s groups.
14. The victim, although not a member of the targeted racial, religious, disability,
sexual-orientation, or ethnic/national origin group, was a member of an advocacy group supporting
the precepts of the victim group.
C. Cautions
1. Need for Case-by-Case Assessment of the Facts — The aforementioned
factors are not all-inclusive of the types of objective facts which evidence bias motivation.
Therefore, reporting agencies must examine each case for facts which clearly provide evidence
that the offender’s bias motivated him/her to commit the crime.
2. Misleading Facts — Agencies must be alert to misleading facts. For example,
the offender used an epithet to refer to the victim’s race, but the offender and victim were of the
same race.
3. Feigned Facts — Agencies must be alert to evidence left by the offenders
which is meant to give the false impression that the incident was motivated by bias. For example,
students of a religious school vandalize their own school, leaving anti-religious statements
and symbols on its walls in the hope that they will be excused from attending class.
4. Offender’s Mistaken Perception — Even if the offender was mistaken in his/
her belief that the victim was a member of a racial, religious, disability, sexual-orientation, or
ethnic/national origin group, the offense is still a hate crime as long as the offender was motivated
by bias against that group. For example, a middle-aged, non-gay man walking by a bar
frequented by gays was attacked by six teenagers who mistakenly believed the victim had left the
bar and was gay. Although the offenders were wrong on both counts, the offense is a hate crime
because it was motivated by the offenders’ anti-gay bias.
5. Changes in Findings of Bias — If, after an initial incident report was submitted,
a contrary finding regarding bias occurs, the national file must be updated with the new
finding. For example, if an initial finding of no bias was later changed to racial bias or a finding
of racial bias was later changed to religious bias, the change should be reported to the FBI’s
UCR Program.
 
Is that so? Well, fancy that. I guess you know more about what I said than I do. Death of the author and all that.

[quote name='RollingSkull']Back on topic, trq, I read that page and couldn't find if these were charges or convictions. It is easy as pie to charge someone with a hate crime, white or black, by accident of victim choice. Convictions where the hate crimes stuck would convince me more.[/quote]
Oh.

Well...

I do so hope you read into the conviction data with a bit more diligence than when you read my post.
 
Whew, it's a good thing that UCR Hate Crime codebook doesn't mention anything about rich people or the homeless. They must still be fair game.

God knows Iz likes to beat up some of those nasty rich people. Them bastardz stink about as much as the freaking homeless and deserve every punch in the face they gets.
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']The rest I shall merely concede as poorly argued. After rereading, I felt the Volokh quote wasn't as effective as I had read at first, but I decided to give trq a chance to fire back, as he is one of the few good faith debaters on this forum. I figure if I let him take a swing at what I wrote and what Volokh wrote, it might even be convincing.[/QUOTE]

Appreciated. I think, however, I'm inclined to let this particular topic go, since my tendency to write mini-manifestos has begun to bore even me. I would add, though:

[quote name='RollingSkull']Wow.

"67.8 percent were anti-Jewish, 13.0 percent were anti-Islamic"

That statement is so... so... ideology affirming.[/QUOTE]

I recognize that you're seemingly aware of it, but I'll say it just to get it on record: I'm not sure what ideology you think is being affirmed here, but I don't think these numbers necessarily indicate the absence of a backlash at all, if that's what you're implying. After all, how do these numbers compare to the stats from other years? How do those numbers stack up, proportionally, against the actual proportion of Muslims in the country? 13% of incidents among .03 percent of the population is pretty significant, after all. How many alleged incidents are categorized elsewhere, under "Anti-African-American" or "Anti-Southeast Asian"? And yes, "convictions" vs. "reports" is a factor as well.

But again, I suspect I'm making a point you're already aware of.

Lastly, just as an FYI since you asked, the DoD defines terrorism as the "calculated use of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

Unfortunately, I can't find the original page, but that's the definition I had in mind when I made that reference, and it can be found on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism#United_States), which attributes it to the DoD as well. As I was looking, I also turned this up (same source, but attributed), which might also be of interest.

Federal Criminal Code, Section 2331, Chapter 113B of Part I of Title 18, defines terrorism as:

"…activities that involve violent… or life-threatening acts… that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State and… appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and… (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States… [or]… (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States…"

So in short, terrorism is violent crime intended to intimidate or send a message, either to the civilian populace or to the government, rather than for financial gain.
 
bread's done
Back
Top