Paypal chargeback issue...

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Murcielago77

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So I had sold a xbox 360 hard drive on ebay for $135 shipped to a user in Canada. They receieved it, they left me positive feedback and everything, the transaction was done. 2 months later a chargeback was filed against me... I provided paypal with shipping information and ebay transaction information and today, I come home to see this email
Dear __________,

We recently notified you that one of your buyers filed a chargeback with
their credit card company indicating unauthorized credit card use.

It is PayPal's standard practice to attempt to dispute wrongful
chargebacks. After careful consideration of the information provided by you
and the buyer regarding the transaction detailed below, we have determined
that we will be unable to successfully dispute this chargeback with the
buyer's credit card issuer.

Since the credit card issuer granted the chargeback to the buyer, we have
debited $135.00 USD from your PayPal account in order to reimburse the
buyer. This is in accordance with the terms of the PayPal User Agreement.

Also, PayPal was charged a settlement fee. As a result we debited your
PayPal account to pay for this fee. This action was taken in accordance
with the terms of the PayPal User Agreement.

Please review the transaction information below and other details about
this case.
Click to expand...

then i go and check my account, and notice that they had taken that $135, AND $10. Why in the world am I held responsible for what happens to someones credit card. Just because they bought it from me with a stolen credit card, Im held liable to pay for it?! I just think what paypal did was fucked up and charging me for that stupid chargeback fee as well really pisses me off some more, i understand making me refund my money, but they charged me to pay for the $135 in full, instead of a refund (paypal gets to keep their fees) and then charge me $10 for something i never wanted to happen in the first place.

What do you guys think I should do about this, I already contacted paypal, and im now waiting for their response
 
yeah i've had some paypal BS too. This fradulant buyer who gets kicked off ebay still manages to succeed in a dispute and paypal takes $42 out of my account. I've sent them like 4 e-mails in a dispute and now they don't even reply anymore.
 
That $10 fee is really gay paypal is supposed to be protecting sellers from fraud and yet they have the balls to charge you a $10 fee because paypal couldnt hold up the dispute with the credit card company even when you have proof it was delivered
 
[quote name='dracula']when is the google electronic payment method going to become available?[/QUOTE]

exactly - I feel bad this shit happened to you Murc - seems like theres no protection for the seller at all - hence why I don't even bother putting stuff on eBay anymore. Hope something does get resolved though in your favor.
 
[quote name='Murcielago77']So I had sold a xbox 360 hard drive on ebay for $135 shipped to a user in Canada. They receieved it, they left me positive feedback and everything, the transaction was done. 2 months later a chargeback was filed against me... I provided paypal with shipping information and ebay transaction information and today, I come home to see this email


then i go and check my account, and notice that they had taken that $135, AND $10. Why in the world am I held responsible for what happens to someones credit card. Just because they bought it from me with a stolen credit card, Im held liable to pay for it?! I just think what paypal did was fucked up and charging me for that stupid chargeback fee as well really pisses me off some more, i understand making me refund my money, but they charged me to pay for the $135 in full, instead of a refund (paypal gets to keep their fees) and then charge me $10 for something i never wanted to happen in the first place.

What do you guys think I should do about this, I already contacted paypal, and im now waiting for their response[/QUOTE]

first mistake was sending to canada... there is no way to track it in canada... i would tell paypal they can GO Fu#k themself.... and refuse to pay the 135 bucks.. (if they took it out of your bank tell your bank you never gave them permission to take it out...dispute it with the bank
 
[quote name='slidecage']first mistake was sending to canada... there is no way to track it in canada... i would tell paypal they can GO Fu#k themself.... and refuse to pay the 135 bucks.. (if they took it out of your bank tell your bank you never gave them permission to take it out...dispute it with the bank[/QUOTE]

well actually, ups tracked it to canada. And i cant exactly refuse to pay since they already took it out of my payal funds
 
[quote name='Murcielago77']well actually, ups tracked it to canada. And i cant exactly refuse to pay since they already took it out of my payal funds[/QUOTE]


couldnt you file fraud charges against the person you sold it too .....
 
then i go and check my account, and notice that they had taken that $135, AND $10. Why in the world am I held responsible for what happens to someones credit card. Just because they bought it from me with a stolen credit card, Im held liable to pay for it?! I just think what paypal did was ed up and charging me for that stupid chargeback fee as well really pisses me off some more, i understand making me refund my money, but they charged me to pay for the $135 in full, instead of a refund (paypal gets to keep their fees) and then charge me $10 for something i never wanted to happen in the first place.
Click to expand...
Welcome to PayPal. It's the biggest fucking joke ever, if somebody claims their credit card was stolen, they will take your money back no questions asked whether you have proof or not. Plus the fucking $10 fee. It's happened to me twice, and it's total bullshit. Good luck getting anywhere with the people you email, I talked to 5 different people who couldn't give a rats ass. PayPal is a fucking worthless company and I hope that Google introduces a payment system that fucking stomps their ass in the future.
 
[quote name='secretvampire']Welcome to PayPal. It's the biggest fucking joke ever, if somebody claims their credit card was stolen, they will take your money back no questions asked whether you have proof or not. Plus the fucking $10 fee. It's happened to me twice, and it's total bullshit. Good luck getting anywhere with the people you email, I talked to 5 different people who couldn't give a rats ass. PayPal is a fucking worthless company and I hope that Google introduces a payment system that fucking stomps their ass in the future.[/QUOTE]


So very true.
 
I still don't see this as the sellers fault. I'm not sure what paypal is thinking but in the sense they should go and track down Murc's Xbox 360 HDD he sold right?
 
[quote name='pimpinc333']I still don't see this as the sellers fault. I'm not sure what paypal is thinking but in the sense they should go and track down Murc's Xbox 360 HDD he sold right?[/quote]

In theory, yes, but then that's more work for them to do and definitely more money out of their pocket rather than hitting the person they can still easily charge, point to their TOS and said "you agreed to it, too bad!" and send a half-baked "apology".

Oh, eBay and PayPal...what garbage.
 
[quote name='Kapwanil']In theory, yes, but then that's more work for them to do and definitely more money out of their pocket rather than hitting the person they can still easily charge, point to their TOS and said "you agreed to it, too bad!" and send a half-baked "apology".

Oh, eBay and PayPal...what garbage.[/QUOTE]

This experience here makes me want to never, ever sell anything on Ebay.
 
[quote name='pimpinc333']I still don't see this as the sellers fault. I'm not sure what paypal is thinking but in the sense they should go and track down Murc's Xbox 360 HDD he sold right?[/quote]

It isn't but whenever anyone does a credit card chargeback for whatever reason paypal takes the money out of the sellers account.

It wouldn't really be so bad if ebay was up front and honest about it, but instead paypal's always hypes its seller protection assurances which add up to nothing with CC chargebacks.
 
Sorry to hear you got fucked OP. Let this be more warning to never take Paypal on non US transactions. Have you contacted paypal via phone and asked them what to do. It's unlikely that they'll be able to help but it's worth a shot. Call ebay's powerseller line 1-866-442-3229 and you can get transferred over to paypal from there. Hope they can help.
 
From what I'm hearing, whenever you shipped out something over $100 or so, shipped it out, ship it with paypal since they required phone number to ship out to any international land.

Get in contact with the buyer to make sure everything is legit.

if that doesn't work, F**K PAYPAL AND GO BACK TO GOOD OL MONEY ORDER AND/OR CHECKS. Its not worth it to stick with them while so much assests on the line.
 
Main reason to only keep it as a personal account. Can't take credit cards, only bank transfers and e-checks. Makes it much safer for you, although does have that pesky $500 limit.
 
First of all never ship outside the country or you will always get screwed on a chargeback. Second always use delivery confirmation. And most important ONLY ship to a confirmed paypal add. I have had 6 chargebacks on paypal and won all 6. Seller protection only works if you follow the rules set forth by paypal. Anytime you ship outside of the country or to a non confirmed add. you are asking for problems.
 
I'm done with Paypal as well. It's a huge ripoff machine--anyone who wants to screw you over basically has every chance to succeed at doing so.
 
[quote name='pimpinc333']This experience here makes me want to never, ever sell anything on Ebay.[/quote]

The problem is that I have plenty of stuff I'd rather sell in bulk via eBay (old gaming magazines, for one, since I hate just throwing most of them out) but, man, it has boiled down to a matter of following a strict list of guidelines if you really want to protect yourself from all directions as a Seller nowadays.

It's not TOO bad, to be fair, but it's certainly a lot harder since the amount of overall chicanery on eBay has switched over from "eh, caveat emptor! Too bad, Buyer! Should have done your homework!" to "oooh...Seller, you missed this little thing over here in our TOS...chargeback time!"

Personally, I still think it's fine to sell, just be sure that you stick with Check/Money Order only as methods of payment, no international bidders, and wrap it all up with Delivery Confirmation on every package sent, no excuses. That should clear up most troubles.
 
Same thing happened to me.I was not notified of anything I got that email and bam $75.00 is taken from my paypal account.I was so angry when I found out I almost took Paypal to court over the dispute.They have no right to take any of your money without first letting you know and they should have the right to show all evidence of the transaction.

honestly If I had the money I would of contacted a lawyer when it happened to me because what they are doing in illegal.If someone takes your credit card of uses it in any illegal way it is up to that person to contact their credit card provider and get it sorted out in no way is paypal your bank or credit card holder they have no right to touch your money.When I did my sale awhile back I didnt have a credit card attached to paypal just my bank account and when they took money from me it put me in the negative on my paypal account and then I recieved an email saying your in the negative you have so many days to pay it back if you had purchased protected whatever on paypal this would not of happened.

Thats my two cents and Im sorry it happened someone should take them to court over this because it's 100% illegal and is a crime.
 
yea, i hope im never fucked like this on paypal. I guess I shouldn't worry too much since I don't allow international bidders. This is usually the only way they side with the buyer right?
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']It isn't but whenever anyone does a credit card chargeback for whatever reason paypal takes the money out of the sellers account.

It wouldn't really be so bad if ebay was up front and honest about it, but instead paypal's always hypes its seller protection assurances which add up to nothing with CC chargebacks.[/QUOTE]

QFT.

And to everyone saying 'Never ship out of the country...' Read the OP. The chargeback wasn't for item not received, it was for fraudulent CC charges. That is going to fuck you whether you ship it within the US or internationally. Doesn't matter.

It's good practice to empty your PayPal account out frequently to avoid having the money automatically yanked from you. In this case PayPal would have actually been out the cash, so they might have gone to a collection agency to get their money eventually. Not sure on that.

CC chargebacks are a real bitch, because what incentive does PayPal have to fight them? They can just roll over and get their money back from the seller with minimal cost. Spending man hours to really investigate and respond to a chargeback complaint is going to be a lot more costly. Wouldn't it be nice to know if the buyer has had other things shipped to this same address in the past BEFORE the card was stolen? Or when he paid/bid on your item if the IP was the same as an IP he used in the past for other eBay activity? Could be that it was a brand new eBay and PayPal account used only for the fraudulent charges. That would lend credibility to the stolen card claim, but of course PayPal will never tell you, they just take your money.

With an internal PayPal chargeback they don't refund the buyer until they recover the money from the seller, so they are never out a dime on those AFAIK, and it's probably a lot less likely for them to pay the collection agency fees to collect money they aren't actually really out anyway. Frankly wouldn't make financial sense to do so.

If you wanted you could try contacting the Canadian police wherever you shipped the thing and tell them what happened. After all you do have a real address where the credit card thief had the thing shipped. (Or if the legit credit card owner lives there that would show pretty clear fraud IMO.) I doubt you'd recoup any money, but it might be satisfying to make the attempt at bringing the asshat to justice.
 
Wubb emptying your paypal account will do nothing.Like I mentioned with my situation they still took out the payment and put my Paypal account in the Negative figures and then I was sent emails saying I have to pay the amount back in a certain amount of time.If you have a credit card on file they will just take the money right from it.Which is total BS and illegal
 
[quote name='cmagus']Wubb emptying your paypal account will do nothing.Like I mentioned with my situation they still took out the payment and put my Paypal account in the Negative figures and then I was sent emails saying I have to pay the amount back in a certain amount of time.If you have a credit card on file they will just take the money right from it.Which is total BS and illegal[/QUOTE]

Yea my account is linked to my Bank Account so if someone was to do a chargeback it would come straight out of my bank account if I didn't have money in my paypal.
 
[quote name='cmagus']Wubb emptying your paypal account will do nothing.Like I mentioned with my situation they still took out the payment and put my Paypal account in the Negative figures and then I was sent emails saying I have to pay the amount back in a certain amount of time.If you have a credit card on file they will just take the money right from it.Which is total BS and illegal[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure they do not take money out of linked accounts any longer. There was actually a lawsuit on that. How long ago did this happen? And are you saying they did take the money from a linked CC or bank account without your permission or that you went ahead and paid the negative balance yourself after a few threatening e-mails from them?

I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure I've read this from a few different sources.
 
They took the money from the paypal account and they took it over the limit and then they sent me several emails threating me to pay it back.I contacted them about it and i gave them crap on the phone and they gave me the whole buyer protection thing.I then from there looked into legal actions but couldn't afford it.I did end up paying it so I could use it.This happened about 6 months ago or so.I actually think I still have the email they sent me I'll see if I can find it.I don't think i still have it but they did threaten with legal action if it was not paid and removal of my paypal account.
 
I had this happen before as well, a CC chargeback due to "fraudulent activity".
This was for $300. They took it out of my account(made it negative), where it sat like that for 4 weeks. But i actually got covered under the seller protection policy so my money was "returned". Still a PITA waiting for it. I sure wasn't going to put money in the account with a negative balance, and I even told my bank not to authorize any charges from Paypal in case they tried to take it from my bank account. Learning from that experience, I have a checking account exclusively for paypal/half with no more than $100 in it at a time.
 
Awhile back a buyer that I sold too acidentley got double charged by their credit card company. They had two payments for the same item. I was out of town for the weekend and came back and noticed this and Paypal contacted me informing me that the bank is disputing. I than read my feedback and the seller left me positive and said I refunded his money. I didnt refund his money and it was still in my acount. So I responded to Paypal and told them that the $37.00 was a doublecharge and to withdrawl it back. Than I got an email telling me that they charged me $10 for the ordeal. So I picked up my phone, called them and asked them their policy. The lady tried BS'ing me, but I am a much better BS'er and new what she was trying to do. So I just said this to get her to shut up.

Lady: "Sir according to Paypal user agreement, this charge is your responcibility to pay for the chargeback fee. The bank charges it to us and we pass it along to the acount holder."

Studly Me: "So let me get this right, the buyers bank messed up by double charging him and your system allowed this and now I am going to pay $10 for both of your incompitance?"

Lady: "OK sir, we will re-emburse you the $10 fee, sorry for the inconvienience"

Studly Me: "Thanks"

That was the end part of the conversation, I had more stuff to dish out such as, can I see a signed copy of this Paypal policy I supposivley agreed too and so on. You just have to make it difficult for Paypal to put the blame on you. Also, you may want to call the FDIC and see what your rights are exactly. Paypal should cover its customers and deal with the disputes with the other banks without charging its customers. I know when ever I have any problems with any of my credit cards they act swiff and never charge me a penny. If paypal can not protect their customers from stuff like this they should not be offering the service. They need to get insurance just like any other bank.
 
[quote name='cmagus']They took the money from the paypal account and they took it over the limit and then they sent me several emails threating me to pay it back.I contacted them about it and i gave them crap on the phone and they gave me the whole buyer protection thing.I then from there looked into legal actions but couldn't afford it.I did end up paying it so I could use it.This happened about 6 months ago or so.I actually think I still have the email they sent me I'll see if I can find it.I don't think i still have it but they did threaten with legal action if it was not paid and removal of my paypal account.[/QUOTE]
I think wubb's point is that they couldn't take any more than what was already in your Paypal account. So while they can make a negative balance on your account and pretty much freeze it, they don't take actually take anything that wasn't in your Paypal account (so they won't take money from your link bank account or credit cards.. at least, as wubb also said, they shouldn't do this anymore). So by constantly clearing out your account, you reduce the risk of Paypal randomly taking out your funds and you losing money for stuff that's not your fault (most important thing in the end is not losing your money, right?). That doesn't mean they won't try to get the money back through other means (i.e. collection agencies) though.
 
[quote name='Pookymeister1234']I had this happen before as well, a CC chargeback due to "fraudulent activity".
This was for $300. They took it out of my account(made it negative), where it sat like that for 4 weeks. But i actually got covered under the seller protection policy so my money was "returned". Still a PITA waiting for it. I sure wasn't going to put money in the account with a negative balance, and I even told my bank not to authorize any charges from Paypal in case they tried to take it from my bank account. Learning from that experience, I have a checking account exclusively for paypal/half with no more than $100 in it at a time.[/QUOTE]

Well that is good to hear. I have heard that with a CC chargeback the seller protection plan doesn't hold water, but apparently that is not the case.

And judyx3 summed me up pretty well.

Personally I'd probably cave and pay the money if I were threatened with legal action and/or got a notice from a collection agency. But I still think it's good practice to have the money out of your PP account so that you have control over making the ultimate decision. Of course if you constantly have payments coming in, you'll be SOL anyway. One point is that a company typically gets just a tiny fraction of money collected through an agency so if you really want to screw them, wait until they do that. Although I'm not sure if having something go to a collection agency fucks your credit rating or not assuming you pay it off. Don't want to cut off your nose to spite your face.
 
I've never used paypal, but can't you keep the account that paypal is linked to nearly empty and transfer funds out of it as they come in?

Sorry if it's a stupid question but I've never used paypal because it seems like a load of crap to me in the era of credit cards. Credit cards offer the consumer protection and paypal does stuff like this to people.
 
It's not just PayPal , it's the credit card industry as a whole.
It may not sound fair, but when someone uses a stolen credit card at a regular "brick and mortar" store, when it is disputed, it's always the seller/merchant that takes the lost.
PayPal is just another reason for eBay to get more fees out of their sellers.
Next time, just accept checks or money orders.
 
well, i recieved this email today
This transaction was reversed for the following reasons(s):

- The merchandise was shipped to an non-U.S. destination.
- The merchandise was shipped to an unconfirmed address.
- The transaction was not marked as "SPP Eligible".

We have disputed the chargeback on your behalf and must allow the
buyer's credit card company 75 days to reply to our dispute. If the
dispute is resolved in your favor, we will promptly lift the hold on
your funds and notify you by email. Thank you in advance for your
patience.

If the seller loses a Buyer Claim or a chargeback dispute and does not
qualify for the Seller Protection Policy, the seller will owe PayPal for
the amount of the reversed transaction. In the case of a chargeback,
sellers who do not meet the requirements of the Seller Protection Policy
will also owe a $10.00 USD chargeback fee. PayPal will seek to recover
the funds from sellers by debiting their PayPal balance. If there are
not sufficient funds in the seller's PayPal balance, sellers have a
choice of reimbursing PayPal by funding their PayPal account or by other
means. The fee will be waived for all sellers participating in our
PayPal Preferred program. Chargeback fees will be assessed in the
currency amount the payment was completed in.

For further information on Receiving Payments and Risk Of Reversals, go
to the Payments (Sending, Receiving, and Withdrawals) Policy located in
our User Agreement. This can be located at the bottom of any PayPal
webpage.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.

Sincerely,
Elizabeth
PayPal Chargeback Division
PayPal, an eBay Company
Click to expand...
 
You're screwed. That's all there is to it. If you don't have DC (which is not available to Canada), you lose. This same thing happened to me a couple of years ago. Shipped to Canada, got positive feedback and had correspondence from the buyer saying that they got their item and everything. Couple of months later....BAM, chargeback. I lost before I could even explain. They didn't give a flying fuck what really happened.

They can charge you the settlement fee, since it is part of their EULA. If you use Paypal, you have already agreed to this. Again, your screwed.

Anyway, I'm off to read the rest of the thread. I'm sure that somone beat me to it.

TBW
 
Anytime I sell and they are international and want to pay with pay pal, I make them pay for registered shipping and full blown insurance. If they try the old chargeback bullshit, I claim the ins. It takes a while and is a hassle but not a total loss.
 
[quote name='TheBlueWizard']You're screwed. That's all there is to it. If you don't have DC (which is not available to Canada), you lose. ...
Anyway, I'm off to read the rest of the thread. I'm sure that somone beat me to it.[/QUOTE]

Probably want to do the whole reading the rest of the thread thing before firing off a response...

[quote name='Murcielago77']well actually, ups tracked it to canada.[/QUOTE]
 
oh man this is scary, does anyone know if this sort of thing happens at half.com? if so i gotta pull all my items off, this is scary stuff :cold:
 
[quote name='gizmogc']Just deposited all my funds into my bank accout. I REALLY hate Paypal, but without it, how will 95% of ebayers pay?[/QUOTE]

When I first started Ebay I did everything Ol' Fashion Money Order. I paid everyone like that. I'm just gonna be more careful with all my paypal transactions now.
 
First of all i would like to know why you would sell something to someone in Canada. did you do any of the following?

Things to do when selling:

1. Dont sell to foreign people
2. Verified paypal address from the buyer
3. Ebay account with good feedback
4. limit your listing so only people with good feedback can buy.
5. Take your money out as soon as you get it.

I feel bad for you buddy.. But im pretty sure you didnt follow these guidlines...
 
[quote name='DuckM4n']oh man this is scary, does anyone know if this sort of thing happens at half.com? if so i gotta pull all my items off, this is scary stuff :cold:[/quote]

Im not worried about half.com (knock on wood) since most of the stuff i sell on there is like $4 guides. One problem isnt going to kill me.
 
"First of all i would like to know why you would sell something to someone in Canada"


Dude why the hell does everyone think selling to Canada is so wrong.I swear its like americans seem to make a big deal out of everything going to Canada.Dealing with Canada is no different than dealing with the US just the packages take a little longer to arrive due to the fact we are in a different country.Seriously it gets so damn tiring hearing people bitch about dealing with canada.Let's see I live in Canada and have I ripped anyone off? Have i gotten all my packages to peole i've dealt with within a good amount of time.

I live in canada and the guy that ripped me off with this lived in the US so should I tell canadians to stop dealing with the US.Sure our packages take longer to arrive to you but we also get stuck with alot of fees from stuff from the states.Bottom line is paypal is doing something illegal with out the users permission and something should be done about it using money orders is garbage they take way to long.
 
Reality's Fringe]I always pull the funds out of my paypal account before I ship. I don't know if that helps said:
Amen, brother. I transfer ALL the Paypal payments I receive to my checking account the second I get them. I'd rather keep my money and take my chances with the collection agencies than be shafted by Paypals B.S. policies.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='DuckM4n']oh man this is scary, does anyone know if this sort of thing happens at half.com? if so i gotta pull all my items off, this is scary stuff :cold:[/QUOTE]

Half.com is totally different. If a buyers pays with fradulent funds, Half.com will e-mail you and ask if you sent the item out yet. If you haven't sent it out yet, you are instructed not to send it out. If you already sent it out, you still get paid and they don't take the money out of your account. I have had that happen I think twice with Half.com.
 
umm, paypal will just put a negative number in your account if you dont ahve the money in your account, and then if they need too, theyll probably just take it out of your bank account or credit card
 
[quote name='cmagus']"First of all i would like to know why you would sell something to someone in Canada"


Dude why the hell does everyone think selling to Canada is so wrong.I swear its like americans seem to make a big deal out of everything going to Canada.Dealing with Canada is no different than dealing with the US just the packages take a little longer to arrive due to the fact we are in a different country.Seriously it gets so damn tiring hearing people bitch about dealing with canada.Let's see I live in Canada and have I ripped anyone off? Have i gotten all my packages to peole i've dealt with within a good amount of time.

I live in canada and the guy that ripped me off with this lived in the US so should I tell canadians to stop dealing with the US.Sure our packages take longer to arrive to you but we also get stuck with alot of fees from stuff from the states.Bottom line is paypal is doing something illegal with out the users permission and something should be done about it using money orders is garbage they take way to long.[/QUOTE]

My parents are 2/2 in Canada. Both times they purchased something from there they got ripped off. I personally stay away from it since I had past bad experiences with shipping and such.
 
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