Pbs: Nova - rise of drones

[quote name='Clak']Political parties/factions change over time, we know this. Now I get the feeling you're saying not much has changed, and I wouldn't agree with that. All of this is based upon your perspective and whether or not you really want to lay things at certain feet. some of us have different perspectives and aren't willing to lay the countries problems at the feet of just a few people. To put it simply, the problem with America is Americans.[/QUOTE]

Things do change. But, the amount of progress is tightly controlled by the elites. And I'd say that the problem is not as unique as you make it to be. You read this extremely well documented account and you will find the same strategies by those in power back then in other nations (which our political traditions are rooted in) they are clearly at play here. The whole lib-con dichotomy is the same framing as well over a century ago and the it is clearly a well-conceived plan by those in power to maintain their own position. They knew exactly what they were doing 150 years ago and today the population falls into their political construct yet again. I was quite shocked when I read this. Never thought this shit that passes off as politics would be going on for so long.
 
[quote name='dohdough']What makes you think that mainstream liberals actually care about imperialism, which is slightly different than what you're saying, but the actual term for it? I'd bet that a vast majority have absolutely no problem with the US using soft power to manipulate another country into doing it's bidding or act in US interests. People care about the method in which we exercise power, not that we do.[/QUOTE]

Very well said!
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']Things do change. But, the amount of progress is tightly controlled by the elites. And I'd say that the problem is not as unique as you make it to be. You read this extremely well documented account and you will find the same strategies by those in power back then in other nations (which our political traditions are rooted in) they are clearly at play here. The whole lib-con dichotomy is the same framing as well over a century ago and the it is clearly a well-conceived plan by those in power to maintain their own position. They knew exactly what they were doing 150 years ago and today the population falls into their political construct yet again. I was quite shocked when I read this. Never thought this shit that passes off as politics would be going on for so long.[/QUOTE]
So, what's the alternative? More parties? Dissolution of the government?

I'm not saying we don't need to change things, but what exactly is the optimal here? If we're controlled by the elites and the party system, what is the alternative?

In regards to imperialism, that's a human problem more than an American problem. I'd wager that any country with sufficient power will eventually try to expand and exerts it's influence in the world.
 
[quote name='Clak']I'm not saying we don't need to change things, but what exactly is the optimal here? If we're controlled by the elites and the party system, what is the alternative?[/QUOTE]

You either vote for one of the elites and ignorantly claim that he's not one of them and he's different or you vote for one of the elites and try to justify your decision by claiming that he's not as bad as the others.
 
This is so fucking pathetically sad. 83% of Americans polled SUPPORT drone strikes. (Same idiots who supported the Iraq invasion?) Did not think it would be this high. Lem-ocrats support this. Just goes to show that so-called liberals fall in line behind their leader. This is the supreme danger of Obama. He normalizes what was once considered to be right-wing war-mongering.

The American public loves drones
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/02/06/the-american-public-loves-drones/

A February 2012 Washington Post-ABC poll showed that eight in ten Americans (83 percent) approved of the Obama Administrations use of unmanned drones against suspected terrorists overseas — with a whopping 59 percent strongly approving of the practice. Support for the drone attacks was also remarkably bipartisan. Seventy six percent of Republicans and 58 percent of Democrats approved of the policy.
In that same poll, respondents were asked whether they supported using drones to target American citizens who are suspected terrorists, the question that stands at the heart of the recent flare-up in Congress over the practice. Two thirds of people in the survey said they approved of doing so.
Click to expand...

Great parallel from Revenge of the Sith at the end. Quite apt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbkC24GzuPM&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ
 
And now the Obama administration has reiterated their claim that the 4th amendment does not apply within 100 miles of any border - including coasts AND international airports. They are essentially contending that the 4th amendment does not exist for 2/3rds of the US population.
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']This is so fucking pathetically sad. 83% of Americans polled SUPPORT drone strikes. (Same idiots who supported the Iraq invasion?) Did not think it would be this high. Lem-ocrats support this. Just goes to show that so-called liberals fall in line behind their leader. This is the supreme danger of Obama. He normalizes what was once considered to be right-wing war-mongering.

The American public loves drones
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/02/06/the-american-public-loves-drones/



Great parallel from Revenge of the Sith at the end. Quite apt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbkC24GzuPM&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ[/QUOTE]

Funny cause those repukeicans and Tea Baggers, don't seem to mind either.
 
it will be when the gov't bring this war to the homefront...

Fark the gun debate, I think every americans need a RPG, seeing at where we are headed
 
[quote name='Finger_Shocker']
You see any right wing gun nut, ever mention that people who break into their house deserves a trial by jury and that they will always try to capture them to allow them to face justice? NO, many times the gun nuts just say if you enter my property you are DEAD and I maintain my guns so that if someone breaks into my house, I will shoot them dead.

Obama is basically applying right wing thinking on a gov't justification scale.

So right wingers why complain about Obama, he is basically one of you.... except he is black...lol[/QUOTE]

You can thank lawyers for having people with guns shoot to kill burglars in their house. If someone tried to rob my house I'd shoot to kill as well(if I had a gun) just because I can somehow be sued for money due to them injuring themselves when in my house. Explain that bullshit. If this was not the case then I would shoot to wound, period.
As for drones and people making the China comment for drones here you're missing the obvious. What about banning drones from operating in urban areas in the United States? If you don't ban them you're just asking for a gang to purchase drones one day and start killing in the city. As much as I have issues with the government and Obama killing American citizens without trial I have just as big a concern with this.
The biggest issue with Obama and that attitude and Bush as would seem to present evidence that they wish to be placed in "King" status. George Washington rejected being a king when they offered the position instead and asked for the position of President.
Meanwhile, you look at the yahoo's today in the Executive Branch and they seem to think they possess this tyrannical position. Look at their actions which speak volumes. The argument of hard choices has not been rejected however the behavior exposes that of one who has made mistakes. Instead of truly trying to fix and make up for mistakes they behave like one who will lose great face if they acknowledge this. Part of America's strength, recognizing these faults and alleviating them, or even trying to, makes us greater then some of our contemporaries. Look at how long it took the Japanese to recognize the wrongs they did to the Ainu, what about the Australians and the Aborigines?
Instead, what happened with Bush, his cronies and the war crimes? "Let's move past this.". By evading those charges, wounds have festered and turned to boils. Lest one lob accusations of the sort I am putting it all on Bush, look back to the Nixon Administration and the actions of one war criminal: Henry Kissinger. Henry Kissinger, a man I was taught in my history books and the media at the time of my schooling, to worship and bow to. The impression still received shows itself that Kissinger, a God on Earth, the man who should have nothing touch his feet but rose petals. When this man receives a pass and even sees Conservatives herald his name from the mountain tops. Now, when others feel their actions acceptable and commit, the point made concrete.
Arrest these people and charge them at the Hague. After this, when our reviled war criminals pop up they will be prosecuted and sentenced. Lest one thinks me fatally optimistic I do not count entirely on good intentions from those of such lower rank that bribe appears the common currency. Instead of this, those in Europe and other places appearing to our eyes in addition.
Regarding drones directly, I remember reading "Second Variety" by Philip K. Dick for one of my classes last semester and immediately thought of the CLAW's. After all, aerial un-controlled drones exist coupled with remote piloted ones.
 
Pretty sure gangs ain't going to be flying drones killing each other.. Most gangs aren't cowards, they face their opponents.

Drones are going to be use by LEO and gov't as a way to control it citizens, allowing your life to not be judge by peers but by gov'ts.

when does the line blur btw a physical threat to a political threat?
 
[quote name='Finger_Shocker']Pretty sure gangs ain't going to be flying drones killing each other.. Most gangs aren't cowards, they face their opponents.

Drones are going to be use by LEO and gov't as a way to control it citizens, allowing your life to not be judge by peers but by gov'ts.

when does the line blur btw a physical threat to a political threat?[/QUOTE]
When the power elite feel their power and authority threatened.
 
[quote name='Finger_Shocker']Pretty sure gangs ain't going to be flying drones killing each other.. Most gangs aren't cowards, they face their opponents.
[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding me? Gang honor code is one of the biggest myths out there. They are absolutely cowards in that they only fight if they outnumber their opponent, and they never actually train in their method of intimidation and terrorism. They can't aim worth shit and care more about living excessively than building up the group they supposedly need to survive. The average gangbanger is completely incompetent and pants on head retarded.
 
[quote name='Clak']Am I the only one who laughs when they seem some of the surveillance drones on the market? For some of the ones I've seen, you could literally take an RC helicopter and attach a camera, instant drone. I wonder why some of this stuff took so long to really get to market. These probably have longer range, but in some cases that's about it.

For example: http://www.nwcn.com/news/washington/Seattle-to-end-its-unmanned-drone-program-190294411.html[/QUOTE]

well when you can strap on heIIfire missles and 30mm rounds on your drone, we will talk:cool:
 
[quote name='dohdough']I think you're missing what I'm saying. My point is that imperialism via soft power is even more indiscriminate in it's victims and affects more people than all the victims of drones strikes put together.

edit: Even if we eliminated drone strikes right now, we'll just use another method that might be even more deadly than drones and even less covert.

It's not "acceptable because there aren't any complaints," but there are less complaints because it's not a full scale invasion and virtually no complaints when it comes to soft power. People are more concerned with these overt methods rather than the goal, which is empire. Drones aren't the problem; imperialism is. I'm not saying that we can't be critical, but that we need to attack both.[/QUOTE]
I think it's more effective to argue at the micro level (ie this specific policy is bad) on this rather than macro because the water gets really muddy really quickly when we talk macro imperialism. Is the Peace Corps imperialism? Shit like that. I think it's easier to swing an opinion on AN issue rather than a huge bucket. People that would instinctively cringe at the imperialism argument (myself included to a point) would also be much more willing to debate the finer point of drones.

If any of that makes sense.
 
[quote name='speedracer']I think it's more effective to argue at the micro level (ie this specific policy is bad) on this rather than macro because the water gets really muddy really quickly when we talk macro imperialism. Is the Peace Corps imperialism? Shit like that. I think it's easier to swing an opinion on AN issue rather than a huge bucket. People that would instinctively cringe at the imperialism argument (myself included to a point) would also be much more willing to debate the finer point of drones.

If any of that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

I always like looking at the big picture but I see what you're saying. That is such a slow process though while innocents die and must wait for us privileged Americans to come around in our own good time. Nonetheless, it is the only way for imperial populations to change their imperial lifestyle. Unless, you have an external force (eg people who are sick and tired of waiting for the long arduous process of Americans coming to some more sensibility) force the change before Americans want to change.
 
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