Peter Moore on BC - "Nobody's concerened anymore..."

[quote name='Roufuss']Peter Moore on BC: "We already have your money, only some internet dorks remember our promises, and people who don't have a 360 are only looking to the future. Screw you guys, I'm going home"[/QUOTE]

Heh, that's kinda what happened when Sega switched from "Buy our console and games, get free online play" to "play online for $10 a month" to "play offline".

Here's a question: Did microsoft actually promise backwards compatibility?

If they didn't, you've got nothing to complain about. If they did, a class action lawsuit is the only way to make them follow through. Anybody up for it?
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']It's only an import for Dreamcast fyi[/QUOTE]

I know. I own both the Dreamcast version and the xbox version ($5 at fry's, couldn't resist).

The bottom line: If you paid for the game (by buying the xbox version) and are stuck without being able to play it on your new microsoft console, I don't have a moral issue with you downloading and playing it on the dreamcast.
 
[quote name='Scorch']The irony of Xecutioner's argument is that he bought KOTOR 1 today after checking that it was BC. :cool:

Or so I heard.[/quote]

And that he's playing it on his normal Xbox..or so I heard ;)
 
What bullshit. I'm so tired of the ending hype and broken promises these systems get prior to launch. I was really hoping I could dump off my old XB, now it looks like I'm stuck with it.
 
Shit I wouldn't care if BC was limited as long as they put worthy games up like PDO, Jet Set Radio Future, Gunvalkyrie(fuck you, I can deal with the controls) Otogi 1 and 2, Buffy, Breakdown, Chronicles Of Riddick, Genma Onimusha, Fatal Frame and Fatal Frame 2. Most other games I could give a fuck less about.
 
My main issue with this deal is MS sounded like we would have all of the games, eventually, backwards. I knew the emulation would be difficult to work with, but when you promise somebody something you expect it to happen down the road. MS broke their promise and this is probably the worst thing they have done with the 360. With the exception of the faulty systems of course.

Yes, It is easy to plug in your old xbox and play the games that aren't backwards. But when I get my PS3 and Wii, I will be able to ditch both older systems thanks to backwards comptability.

I also think MS did a bad job at backwards comptability in general. I have 134 XBox games and only 28 of them work which means 21% of my libary is backwards. I'm sure alot of people shrug at this because they don't own as many titles or they only own GTA and Halo so it doesn't matter to them, but as a XBox addict it's disturbing at how many titles I can't play on my 360.

The bottom line is MS failed to deliver on their promise unless by some sort of miracle 90%+ or better of their titles are backwards by the end of the year, but as long as my original XBox works I will still be able to play these titles without a problem. Unfortunately this sucks for people who sold their original XBox or had no plans on getting one for the past titles. This sucks even more for the newer titles that are coming out (MLB Slugfest, Painkiller, Destroy All Humans 2, Mortal Kombat and Bully are all the highlights imho for the rest of this year) that are sure to be hits but MS will ignore. I'm hoping at the very least MS decides to support the better selling titles like Counterstrike (Sorry Otogi and Shenmue) to atleast make the few of us happy.
 
Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:12 PM by johnporcaro
Backwards Compatibility Update Coming Soon

Lots of talk about backwards compatibility online today. We wanted to get to the bottom of it all, so we went right to the team working on the next back compat update. We hear directly from them that they're in the testing phase of another update, and it should be out in the next few weeks. We saw the list they're testing, and it looks like they're hoping to add at least a dozen titles.

Long before the launch, we thought we might hit a few dozen titles, and we all feel pretty good about the list of well over 200 titles on the back compat list today, including many of the games that you’ve asked for. You all have heard us say the work isn't simple. Many games did unique things to take advantage of the processing power of the Xbox, and that makes it difficult to emulate, especially when we then have to make new code work with existing (and future) compatible titles.

But rest assured, we're not done yet.

We know for a fact that there are lots of people who continue to care about backwards compatibility, including the "Emulation Ninjas" who are working full time on the updates. And those of us posting on this blog. And, of course, many of you.

Stay tuned for more information about the upcoming update…

http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/06/01/535135.aspx
 
[quote name='Monsta Mack']My main issue with this deal is MS sounded like we would have all of the games, eventually, backwards. I knew the emulation would be difficult to work with, but when you promise somebody something you expect it to happen down the road. MS broke their promise and this is probably the worst thing they have done with the 360.[/QUOTE]

Goal = promise?

[quote name='freezedried74']Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:12 PM by johnporcaro
Backwards Compatibility Update Coming Soon

Lots of talk about backwards compatibility online today. We wanted to get to the bottom of it all, so we went right to the team working on the next back compat update. We hear directly from them that they're in the testing phase of another update, and it should be out in the next few weeks. We saw the list they're testing, and it looks like they're hoping to add at least a dozen titles.

Long before the launch, we thought we might hit a few dozen titles, and we all feel pretty good about the list of well over 200 titles on the back compat list today, including many of the games that you’ve asked for. You all have heard us say the work isn't simple. Many games did unique things to take advantage of the processing power of the Xbox, and that makes it difficult to emulate, especially when we then have to make new code work with existing (and future) compatible titles.

But rest assured, we're not done yet.

We know for a fact that there are lots of people who continue to care about backwards compatibility, including the "Emulation Ninjas" who are working full time on the updates. And those of us posting on this blog. And, of course, many of you.

Stay tuned for more information about the upcoming update…

http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/06/01/535135.aspx[/QUOTE]

Sexy, I'm hoping that the "dozen" games are Mercenaries, Morrowind, Midway Arcade Treasures 1 & 3, Def Jam, Midtown Madness 3, JAWS Unleashed, OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast , Tony Hawk 2X, Conker, Doom III and Doom: RoE
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Goal = promise?[/QUOTE]

All of a sudden everybody's an expert on semantics. When you say you're making something your goal, you're implying you're going to do everything in your power to actually attain that goal, not half-ass it, give up, and then tell everybody they should feel lucky for getting as much as they did.
 
What about instead of doing BC on the 360, why not release an official Xbox emulator for the PC a few years down the road, which would let you use your Xbox game disks in a DVD Rom drive. The wired 360 controllers would work very well for playing these games, and it's possible that an Intel/AMD chip would be similar enough to the Xbox 1's chip that emulation would be possible on the vast majority of games.
Perhaps this could even be a major feature of a Windows Vista Service Pack. Since Microsoft is already planning on letting us link our Live accounts to our computers in Vista, we could easily play games online on the PC.
 
PC DVD drives can't read XBox discs, so that really isn't feasible, aside from the fact that the PC you'd need to run it would most likely have to be a fucking beast.
 
[quote name='Genocidal']PC DVD drives can't read XBox discs[/QUOTE]

Now that's horseshit. They don't become torrents by willpower alone.

[quote name='eldad9']I know. I own both the Dreamcast version and the xbox version ($5 at fry's, couldn't resist).

The bottom line: If you paid for the game (by buying the xbox version) and are stuck without being able to play it on your new microsoft console, I don't have a moral issue with you downloading and playing it on the dreamcast.[/QUOTE]

Awesome! Now I can go download Panzer Dragoon Orta to play on my Dreamcast. Fan-fucking-tastic!
 
[quote name='Genocidal']PC DVD drives can't read XBox discs, so that really isn't feasible, aside from the fact that the PC you'd need to run it would most likely have to be a fucking beast.[/quote] I did say they should release it a few years down the road. ;)
And why couldn't you have an emulator which when it boots up tricks your PC and DVD Rom drive into thinking it's an Xbox DVD Drive?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Now that's horseshit. They don't become torrents by willpower alone.[/quote]
You're right, they don't. People FTP them over from their XBoxes to their PC, and then rebuild the ISOs with programs that can make XBox disc images.

[quote name='Kaijufan']I did say they should release it a few years down the road. ;)
And why couldn't you boot up an emulator which tricks your DVD Rom drive into thinking it's an Xbox DVD Drive?[/quote]
If you want to come up with an emulation tool that will work with the firmware of all the different DVD drives out there, be my guest. The XBox scene isn't exactly small or full of blathering idiots, and they haven't done it yet, so I'd imagine it's not that easy.
 
[quote name='Genocidal']
If you want to come up with an emulation tool that will work with the firmware of all the different DVD drives out there, be my guest. The XBox scene isn't exactly small or full of blathering idiots, and they haven't done it yet, so I'd imagine it's not that easy.[/quote]
I don't want to do it, I want Microsoft to do it. I would think it would be easier for them to do it then for anyone else.
I admit I don't know much about how emulation, especially hardware emulation works, but I would think they could use a pretty generic program for the DVD Rom drives that slow them down to Xbox 1 DVD speeds (5x right?). Is the Xbox 1 DVD drive that different from PC DVD drives?
 
Physically, the drive is the same afaik. The firmware is written to tell it to read the disc differently than a PC DVD drive, however, which is where the problem lies. As I said before, the XBox "scene" isn't all a bunch of hacks, and with the information available to them, if this was easy to do, it'd be done. Even if it was possible, the tech support in trying to help people change the firmware on their DVD drives? Horrendous.
 
I was really looking forward to getting an xbox 360 once they updated the list better. I have never owned an xbox and have wanted to play so many games such as ninja gaiden, BUT I guess Peter Moore just solved my problem and helped me save $440. Thanks Microsoft!
 
I just looked at Wikipedia, and I see that the Xbox uses XFAT for the disks. Do 360 games use UDF or XFAT?
Perhaps if Microsoft does release an Xbox emulator for the PC, they would require the use of certain DVD drives which have updated firmware that are able to read XFAT. They could even bundle a copy of the emulator with an XFAT drive.
 
Weird. I just wish they'd actually sit down and make more quality games BC - some of the stuff they've got would never be played by someone who owns a 360.
 
Out of my approximately 110 Xbox games only 33 are BC. I have probably a dozen 1st-party titles that aren't BC. M$ isn't even taken care of their own games. It looks like it will be a few years before I buy 360. PS3? A realistic price will get a realistic time frame. It looks like it's Nintendo only for next-gen, at least for the time being.
 
that stupid nobodys concerned quote just made a few more people out there avoid the 360 and wait on ps3.

Even if it were true its the type of thing a company woudlnt want to admit .

Microsoft has way to many lies wraped up in the 360 the launch was so shady im waiting atleast a year before im getting one now.
 
[quote name='eldad9']http://www.qbrundage.com/michaelb/pubs/essays/xbox360.html

It seems microsoft never actually promised all titles would be backwards compatible - you had no real basis to expect it.[/QUOTE]

No, you don't get it. They said it was their goal to get all of the game backwards compatible, which means anything but is a complete and utter failure.
:bomb: fuck U M$ I AM SELING MY CONULE N0W :bomb:


;)

- edit I kind of understand where those people are coming from but I always taking that quote as goal = hope not = promise.
 
[quote name='eldad9']http://www.qbrundage.com/michaelb/pubs/essays/xbox360.html

It seems microsoft never actually promised all titles would be backwards compatible - you had no real basis to expect it.[/QUOTE]

Ok then what did they promise. Everyone wants to suddenly argue semantics all day but could I think we can all agree they told us best selling titles would be supported and I can probably name, just off the top of my head, more best selling titles that aren't on the list than ones that are. So I still don't see how anyone can think MS was being on the level in their original promises or stated goals or whatever the fuck you want to call them to the consumer.
 
Sorry, guys, I really don't belong here, since I don't, won't, and seems like won't ever own an XBOX console, but fair is fair. Yes, I'm a Nintendo fanboy, but I'm with Moore on this one.

First and foremost: no reason to rehash his statements, I'm certain that they've covered their ass with nebulous fine print, use of words like "hope," "set our goals," etc. I doubt you will find any mentions of "achieving" or "pursuing" these goals to perfection. It's not a hard game to figure out: it's bullshit. Every company, be it Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft has been responsible for lying to customers.

Moore is saying what I'm sure he has thought all along. Had he been more careful and said "our numbers indicate that Backwards Compatibility is not the market's primary concern," there would be way less flames, way less uses of the word fuck, and a lot of people would be scared of the word "numbers," despite places like kotaku calling bullshit.

If you are an Xbox fan, don't sell your Xbox360. At least wait for the good stuff to head your way. And calm down: if there is a lesson to learn in this, they'll learn it. Look at N64 -> GameCube -> Wii development / marketing strategies if you want to see what happens to those that piss off the market. At the very least, this backwards compatibility stuff won't piss off the developers like the N64 cartridge did.
 
With out 100% BC it prevents 360 owners fromselling thier old Xboxs and knocking $80 off the price of the 360. In actuality, it makes the 360 $80 more expensive in my book.
 
Let me come at this from a different angle.

I don't have an Xbox, and this late in the game, don't plan on buying one. But I am planning on buying a 360 at some point. But if BC updates ended today, Microsoft will have delayed my purchase of a 360 (and 360 games and accessories where they make all their money, of course) by at least one price drop (say I thought about it at $200-$300 before, no way I'd pay more than $200 now). If I knew going in that I could choose from hundreds of good, cheap Xbox games to buy to play on the 360 in addition to whatever hot new games there were, that system has a lot more value than if I will be forced to pay $40-$60 for any games.

In summary, Moore is a shitty PR guy. I think his "goal" is to talk out of his ass as often as Phil Harrison.
 
I'm growing tired of explaining why it's important to rake them over the coals on this whether or not you personally want backwards compatibility to be a focus, so I won't bother doing it again. The "Bill Clinton defense technique" some of you guys are falling for here in regards to what was said is disheartening, since this forum usually displays some good intelligence and has an above-average bullshit detector.

Madskills already posted what I came here to post, so....

[quote name='Madskills1182']Looks like MS is covering up Moores harsh words about BC. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152207.html.
So supossedly there is still hope.[/QUOTE]

I'm cautiously optimistic. This smells more like damage control than a sincere statement, but we'll see when the next update shows up. I'm about ready to bet the farm on this upcoming one being the last one....so unless this next update has a TON of games - and it won't - the "overdelivered" statement remains bullshit.

In summary, Moore is a shitty PR guy. I think his "goal" is to talk out of his ass as often as Phil Harrison.
Click to expand...

Sega's hardware division died on his watch. I'm STILL baffled as to why Microsoft brought him in.
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']The "Bill Clinton defense technique" some of you guys are falling for here in regards to what was said is disheartening, since this forum usually displays some good intelligence and has an above-average bullshit detector.[/quote]

I hope you didn't read my post as in: Moore is innocent of lying. What I did say, however, is that he can and WILL get away with such bullshit (exactly because HE can always use his "Bill Clinton defense technique"). I'm surprised that so many people believed that Microsoft will pull it off after the first list of backwards compatible games have been announced...
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']I'm growing tired of explaining why it's important to rake them over the coals on this whether or not you personally want backwards compatibility to be a focus, so I won't bother doing it again. The "Bill Clinton defense technique" some of you guys are falling for here in regards to what was said is disheartening, since this forum usually displays some good intelligence and has an above-average bullshit detector.

Madskills already posted what I came here to post, so....



I'm cautiously optimistic. This smells more like damage control than a sincere statement, but we'll see when the next update shows up. I'm about ready to bet the farm on this upcoming one being the last one....so unless this next update has a TON of games - and it won't - the "overdelivered" statement remains bullshit.



Sega's hardware division died on his watch. I'm STILL baffled as to why Microsoft brought him in.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I agree with both of your statements.
 
Well that's good news regarding future backwards titles. It would be nice if they spilled the beans on what titles they will be. I'm hoping for the other two Prince of Persias, whats the point if POP1 runs but the other two don't? The same can be said for a few games.

Either that or hopefully newer titles that received good scores recently. In the last 12 months Winning Eleven, Toca, MVP Baseball, Outrun, The Warriors and Doom ROE all ring a bell. Perhaps they will work on 2d fighting games for a change? One could only wish. I think Counterstrike strikes me the most considering that was one of their best selling FPS titles besides Halo and Rainbow Six on the xbox.
 
All of the titles in their "Best Of Platinum Hits" should be BC .
Otherwise what's the point of having them , they're like the PH's that everybody has .
I'm pulling for PGR2 , my favorite Xbox game of all time .
I have alot of hours of play on that one .
 
If Moore had just come out and said that making Xbox titles BC was more difficult than any one of them had expected, I'd be fine with the lack of BC updates. But to tell customers that MS gave you more than you could have reasonably expected is just insulting.
 
The thing that really sucks is that I bought an Xbox in 2002. I have the Thompson drive one that really worries me that it is more prone to failure than the other drives. If my Xbox dies then without backward compatibility I have to buy another Xbox to play all my games. The trouble is that the system costs more now new than it did a couple of years ago. It is now $180 for another Xbox because of the gay ass Forza bundle. Add to the fact that production has been stopped on the original Xbox (any one notice how few new Xbox systems are on the shelves of stores lately?) and there is a potential problem here. I won't even entertain the notion of buying a crappy used Xbox at Gamestop that has been abused by some 9 year old kid.
 
You see how smart Moore is? He's a freakin genius. He's got all of us blaming each other for having too high, or too low expectations for the BC issue. Its turned into 'Your a fool for expecting 100% bc' or ' dont support Moores lies, they made a promise!'

I dont have any problem with Microsofts failure to deliver 100% backwards compatibility, the problem I have is how they play that failure off and make it our fault.

Moore could have come out and said something like 'we had a goal, that we now realize may never be reached, it was harder than we expected and now were reallocating our resources to something else' and that would have been the end of it.

But Moore turns it around makes us feel stupid of wanting BC. By coming out and saying 'no one wants it' he makes everyone that does want it feel foolish. Now were arguing semantics with each other.

I dont care if they delivered on the goal of BC or not. But dont fail at that goal and then tell me I never wanted it in the first place, thats just bullshit.
 
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