nycmetsfan
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Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims
- Thread starter IRHari
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[quote name='berzirk']These are two such massively separate incidents, I'm honestly a little surprised someone like you, who I actually find quite intelligent, and a very pleasant counter to much of the hard left bias that these forums tend to have, would even try to shoehorn the two together.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, again, I've stated multiple times, that I understand the difference between the two. There are similarities between the two situations, but they are very different altogether.
I brought it up because Clak made a comment that if it were a church, we wouldn't be hearing much about it. I was just pointing out that here is a church - in the same area as the mosque - that is having legitimate troubles getting built (not a bunch of whiny protesters, actual people with power and guns) and the church barely gets a mention in the news. Hell, if it weren't for the issues with the mosque, I'd be surprised if we even heard about the church at all. And, again, the church is a bigger issue - because, as depascal so adequately described it - eminent domain is such a "shitty shitty" thing and any case like this should be making the news and people should be standing up against it. Instead, it's "Victory Mosque" 24/7. No one cares about this church.
Oh, and FoC - stuff it.
To be fair, again, I've stated multiple times, that I understand the difference between the two. There are similarities between the two situations, but they are very different altogether.
I brought it up because Clak made a comment that if it were a church, we wouldn't be hearing much about it. I was just pointing out that here is a church - in the same area as the mosque - that is having legitimate troubles getting built (not a bunch of whiny protesters, actual people with power and guns) and the church barely gets a mention in the news. Hell, if it weren't for the issues with the mosque, I'd be surprised if we even heard about the church at all. And, again, the church is a bigger issue - because, as depascal so adequately described it - eminent domain is such a "shitty shitty" thing and any case like this should be making the news and people should be standing up against it. Instead, it's "Victory Mosque" 24/7. No one cares about this church.
Oh, and FoC - stuff it.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Far be it from me to tell somebody how to waste their life, but you're wasting your life in conversations with them.
Seriously... Look at the replies to them. Knoell can't distinguish between a Muslim terrorist and a Muslim nonterrorist. UncleBob is trying so hard to argue apples are oranges.
Considering the level of stupidity and stubborness I deal with at my job, I have a lower tolerance for intransigence.
...
Once I finish studying for the CCNP, I'll try to be the reasonable voice of opposition because they suck at it.[/QUOTE]
I can distinguish muslims from extremists just fine. Can you distinguish between muslim extremists and christian extremists? Or are you saying there is no difference? There are equal numbers of each, equal attacks, and so on right? You guys just don't want to hear, you want so badly for us to group muslims in with terrorists that you won't listen to the proof that muslim extremism is very, very, active at this point in time.
Seriously... Look at the replies to them. Knoell can't distinguish between a Muslim terrorist and a Muslim nonterrorist. UncleBob is trying so hard to argue apples are oranges.
Considering the level of stupidity and stubborness I deal with at my job, I have a lower tolerance for intransigence.
...
Once I finish studying for the CCNP, I'll try to be the reasonable voice of opposition because they suck at it.[/QUOTE]
I can distinguish muslims from extremists just fine. Can you distinguish between muslim extremists and christian extremists? Or are you saying there is no difference? There are equal numbers of each, equal attacks, and so on right? You guys just don't want to hear, you want so badly for us to group muslims in with terrorists that you won't listen to the proof that muslim extremism is very, very, active at this point in time.
[quote name='UncleBob']You're right. Agents of the government actively blocking the building of a Christan house of worship via the legal system is an unfair comparison to individual citizens protesting the building of a Muslim house of worship via free speech.[/QUOTE]
Uh yeah, actually it is. I'm not even saying it's right or anything, but thay are not the same thing. There is likely no consideration of the fact that it was a church that was there before. They just want the land for something, could have been another building there before, they'd still want it.
Uh yeah, actually it is. I'm not even saying it's right or anything, but thay are not the same thing. There is likely no consideration of the fact that it was a church that was there before. They just want the land for something, could have been another building there before, they'd still want it.
[quote name='depascal22']Then it wouldn't be vs. then. It would just be thrust against the world. Nobody listens to bmull or jputa anymore and I think myke, berzirk, Clak, and I are the only people that don't ignore Bob and Knoell.[/QUOTE]
I go back and forth, I'm a glutton for punishment.
I go back and forth, I'm a glutton for punishment.
[quote name='Knoell']I can distinguish muslims from extremists just fine. Can you distinguish between muslim extremists and christian extremists? Or are you saying there is no difference? There are equal numbers of each, equal attacks, and so on right? You guys just don't want to hear, you want so badly for us to group muslims in with terrorists that you won't listen to the proof that muslim extremism is very, very, active at this point in time.[/QUOTE]
No shit sherlock, we haven't been living under rocks for the last
ing decade. But building a place of worship is not some sort of flag planting sign of victory that they've won or something. There were mosques before 9/11 and there will be after too, these folks need to get the hell over it, that includes the local rednecks here who burned the construction equipment in Murfreesboro.
Btw, although you'll probably take this as me saying we deserved to be attacked, we've been meddling in middle eastern affairs longer than some of us have been alive. People get sick of that shit after a while. How many times can you try to influence foreign governments before their people get sick of your meddling? Give it time, if the Iraq government ever turns on us, see if we don't try to instill an American friendly one.
No shit sherlock, we haven't been living under rocks for the last
ing decade. But building a place of worship is not some sort of flag planting sign of victory that they've won or something. There were mosques before 9/11 and there will be after too, these folks need to get the hell over it, that includes the local rednecks here who burned the construction equipment in Murfreesboro.Btw, although you'll probably take this as me saying we deserved to be attacked, we've been meddling in middle eastern affairs longer than some of us have been alive. People get sick of that shit after a while. How many times can you try to influence foreign governments before their people get sick of your meddling? Give it time, if the Iraq government ever turns on us, see if we don't try to instill an American friendly one.
[quote name='Knoell']I can distinguish muslims from extremists just fine. Can you distinguish between muslim extremists and christian extremists? Or are you saying there is no difference? There are equal numbers of each, equal attacks, and so on right? You guys just don't want to hear, you want so badly for us to group muslims in with terrorists that you won't listen to the proof that muslim extremism is very, very, active at this point in time.[/QUOTE]
Numberswise, for the time being, there are more Muslim Radicals that ENGAGE in attacks. This doesn't mean the situation can't change however.
We helped create the situation in Iran by getting rid of Mohammed Mosadeq by way of the CIA acting as a proxy for BP. After that, the cowardly pos Shah was installed. They eventually got rid of that monster and replaced him with another, the false representer of God the Ayatollah Khomeini. That country BREEDS false Islam that is extreme because of us.
Also you think such extremism would be around if we didn't help fund it still? You really think we don't perpetuate it to make Israel look good?
Look at the Saudi Arabia. That nation is a hotbed of Terrorist activity because we won't leave the royal family to their own chances of getting murdered or kidnapped. What's going on there is anger, and rightfully so. What is so different from the Saudi Royal Family and the actions of the Czars and others? Living in the lap of luxury, of gross wealth, while the normal people just scrounge by.
As for Extreme Christians we've had at least one big sect this last century, the Catholics of the IRA continually bombing places in England and Ireland. Don't you dare tell them they're not extremists and not every bit as bad as the Muslim Extremists.
Also there's Eric Rudolph and the bombing of abortion clinics. If that's not close to a spot on parallel to the suicide bombers I don't know what is.
Numberswise, for the time being, there are more Muslim Radicals that ENGAGE in attacks. This doesn't mean the situation can't change however.
We helped create the situation in Iran by getting rid of Mohammed Mosadeq by way of the CIA acting as a proxy for BP. After that, the cowardly pos Shah was installed. They eventually got rid of that monster and replaced him with another, the false representer of God the Ayatollah Khomeini. That country BREEDS false Islam that is extreme because of us.
Also you think such extremism would be around if we didn't help fund it still? You really think we don't perpetuate it to make Israel look good?
Look at the Saudi Arabia. That nation is a hotbed of Terrorist activity because we won't leave the royal family to their own chances of getting murdered or kidnapped. What's going on there is anger, and rightfully so. What is so different from the Saudi Royal Family and the actions of the Czars and others? Living in the lap of luxury, of gross wealth, while the normal people just scrounge by.
As for Extreme Christians we've had at least one big sect this last century, the Catholics of the IRA continually bombing places in England and Ireland. Don't you dare tell them they're not extremists and not every bit as bad as the Muslim Extremists.
Also there's Eric Rudolph and the bombing of abortion clinics. If that's not close to a spot on parallel to the suicide bombers I don't know what is.
28 pages? Good god why must this go on?
There is no law agaist building anything there. Is it legal to build a Mosque 6 blocks from where a building fell down? Yes. Is it kind of a shitty thing to do since many people still carry around some wound? Yep. But hey, China pays for our government and Japan makes our Pentiums and we don't cry foul over that so apparently the statute of limitations on hatred for a country is only about 15-20 years.
There is no law agaist building anything there. Is it legal to build a Mosque 6 blocks from where a building fell down? Yes. Is it kind of a shitty thing to do since many people still carry around some wound? Yep. But hey, China pays for our government and Japan makes our Pentiums and we don't cry foul over that so apparently the statute of limitations on hatred for a country is only about 15-20 years.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34EB0MWS0lXuAnQau5uL
I am curious as to what your guys opinion is of them opening the mosque on 9/11/11, the tenth anniversary?
It is an old article, but I hadn't realized the planned opening date until just now.
I am curious as to what your guys opinion is of them opening the mosque on 9/11/11, the tenth anniversary?
It is an old article, but I hadn't realized the planned opening date until just now.
Chuplayer
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[quote name='Knoell']http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34EB0MWS0lXuAnQau5uL
I am curious as to what your guys opinion is of them opening the mosque on 9/11/11, the tenth anniversary?
It is an old article, but I hadn't realized the planned opening date until just now.[/QUOTE]
I believe it's constitutional to build the thing, if lacking tact. I'd fight for their right to do so, though.
Opening it on 9/11/11? That's just a load of bollocks.ing bollocks. I don't even want to see that shit presented as an apology. I've lived through some severe advantage-taking of 9/11, and I never thought I'd see a worse way to do it. But this is the worst.
Opening it on that day just strikes me as another fringe group of Islamic wackos waving their dicks all about, but this time, instead of drilling buildings with planes, they're proclaiming that they had nothing to do with it. Granted, this is a lot less malicious than 9/11/01, but it's bullshit to capitalize on it. Keep your dicks in your pants.
I don't want to see any more exploitation of that day. You want to do something? Do what you were doing to represent Islam on 9/10/01 before Islamophobia became a real legitimate medical condition. Just do your religious stuff in peace without drawing attention to yourself, and don't go having a sex education class where a big building is a vagina and a big plane is a penis.
Bonus: If you're wondering what the "exploitation of 9/11" I was talking about up there was, I had an asshole English teacher that school year who wanted us to tie everything we wrote into 9/11. She talked about 9/11 every day. It was like she was obsessed with it to the point of being fetishistic. It was unsettling. It's one of the things that really upsets me about that day so many years later. It's even more upsetting because she was the only teacher to talk about it on 9/12/01, and for that one day, it was good. But then she just kept on dragging it on all year all the way into June, and I just wanted to get a time machine and go back in time to prevent 9/11 just to shut that exploitative bitch up.
I am curious as to what your guys opinion is of them opening the mosque on 9/11/11, the tenth anniversary?
It is an old article, but I hadn't realized the planned opening date until just now.[/QUOTE]
I believe it's constitutional to build the thing, if lacking tact. I'd fight for their right to do so, though.
Opening it on 9/11/11? That's just a load of bollocks.
ing bollocks. I don't even want to see that shit presented as an apology. I've lived through some severe advantage-taking of 9/11, and I never thought I'd see a worse way to do it. But this is the worst.Opening it on that day just strikes me as another fringe group of Islamic wackos waving their dicks all about, but this time, instead of drilling buildings with planes, they're proclaiming that they had nothing to do with it. Granted, this is a lot less malicious than 9/11/01, but it's bullshit to capitalize on it. Keep your dicks in your pants.
I don't want to see any more exploitation of that day. You want to do something? Do what you were doing to represent Islam on 9/10/01 before Islamophobia became a real legitimate medical condition. Just do your religious stuff in peace without drawing attention to yourself, and don't go having a sex education class where a big building is a vagina and a big plane is a penis.
Bonus: If you're wondering what the "exploitation of 9/11" I was talking about up there was, I had an asshole English teacher that school year who wanted us to tie everything we wrote into 9/11. She talked about 9/11 every day. It was like she was obsessed with it to the point of being fetishistic. It was unsettling. It's one of the things that really upsets me about that day so many years later. It's even more upsetting because she was the only teacher to talk about it on 9/12/01, and for that one day, it was good. But then she just kept on dragging it on all year all the way into June, and I just wanted to get a time machine and go back in time to prevent 9/11 just to shut that exploitative bitch up.
They should be able to build the Mosque where they want to but it is wrong to do that to the families of the victims. What should be done is that those who want to build the mosque should voluntarily decide to build it elsewhere out of respect for 9 11 victims, this would get Muslim's more respect from other Americans and help American's accept them. In turn we should help find a location for them that is more beneficial to the people who want the mosque.
Just scanned the thread fast. How is it insensitive to build the mosque there? Because Islam led to the beliefs that caused the 9 11 attacks. Our way of life is at odds with the teachings of Islam based on the interpretation the attackers took from it. Their war against us is a holy war based off their religion. For the victims Islam is a reminder of the beliefs and actions that led to the deaths of their family members. It's not like everyone wants to prevent a mosque from being built in NYC. They just want a location that respects the victims.
Just scanned the thread fast. How is it insensitive to build the mosque there? Because Islam led to the beliefs that caused the 9 11 attacks. Our way of life is at odds with the teachings of Islam based on the interpretation the attackers took from it. Their war against us is a holy war based off their religion. For the victims Islam is a reminder of the beliefs and actions that led to the deaths of their family members. It's not like everyone wants to prevent a mosque from being built in NYC. They just want a location that respects the victims.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='J7.']They should be able to build the Mosque where they want to but it is wrong to do that to the families of the victims. What should be done is that those who want to build the mosque should voluntarily decide to build it elsewhere out of respect for 9 11 victims, this would get Muslim's more respect from other Americans and help American's accept them. In turn we should help find a location for them that is more beneficial to the people who want the mosque.
Just scanned the thread fast. How is it insensitive to build the mosque there? Because Islam led to the beliefs that caused the 9 11 attacks. Our way of life is at odds with the teachings of Islam based on the interpretation the attackers took from it. Their war against us is a holy war based off their religion. For the victims Islam is a reminder of the beliefs and actions that led to the deaths of their family members. It's not like everyone wants to prevent a mosque from being built in NYC. They just want a location that respects the victims.[/QUOTE]
It's weird to see you under the bigot banner.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/09/20/religion-is-a-drug.htm
Just scanned the thread fast. How is it insensitive to build the mosque there? Because Islam led to the beliefs that caused the 9 11 attacks. Our way of life is at odds with the teachings of Islam based on the interpretation the attackers took from it. Their war against us is a holy war based off their religion. For the victims Islam is a reminder of the beliefs and actions that led to the deaths of their family members. It's not like everyone wants to prevent a mosque from being built in NYC. They just want a location that respects the victims.[/QUOTE]
It's weird to see you under the bigot banner.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/09/20/religion-is-a-drug.htm
2 good posts in a row then a personal attack, could it be a record?
I am curious to know how acknowledging that islamic extremists use islam as a foundation for their cause, (they may develop that cause to be something that is not in line with the islamic faith but the foundation is still islam), somehow this makes us bigots?
I am curious to know how acknowledging that islamic extremists use islam as a foundation for their cause, (they may develop that cause to be something that is not in line with the islamic faith but the foundation is still islam), somehow this makes us bigots?
[quote name='J7.']They should be able to build the Mosque where they want to but it is wrong to do that to the families of the victims. What should be done is that those who want to build the mosque should voluntarily decide to build it elsewhere out of respect for 9 11 victims, this would get Muslim's more respect from other Americans and help American's accept them. In turn we should help find a location for them that is more beneficial to the people who want the mosque.
Just scanned the thread fast. How is it insensitive to build the mosque there? Because Islam led to the beliefs that caused the 9 11 attacks. Our way of life is at odds with the teachings of Islam based on the interpretation the attackers took from it. Their war against us is a holy war based off their religion. For the victims Islam is a reminder of the beliefs and actions that led to the deaths of their family members. It's not like everyone wants to prevent a mosque from being built in NYC. They just want a location that respects the victims.[/QUOTE]
What the hell. Islam doesn't kill people. People kill people. Since the people building the mosque are in no way associated with the 9/11 hijackers or Al Qaeda, there should be no problem.
Just scanned the thread fast. How is it insensitive to build the mosque there? Because Islam led to the beliefs that caused the 9 11 attacks. Our way of life is at odds with the teachings of Islam based on the interpretation the attackers took from it. Their war against us is a holy war based off their religion. For the victims Islam is a reminder of the beliefs and actions that led to the deaths of their family members. It's not like everyone wants to prevent a mosque from being built in NYC. They just want a location that respects the victims.[/QUOTE]
What the hell. Islam doesn't kill people. People kill people. Since the people building the mosque are in no way associated with the 9/11 hijackers or Al Qaeda, there should be no problem.
[quote name='IRHari']What the hell. Islam doesn't kill people. People kill people. Since the people building the mosque are in no way associated with the 9/11 hijackers or Al Qaeda, there should be no problem.[/QUOTE]
Were the 9/11 hijackers associated with islam? We cannot blame the religion for not keeping a handle on its billions of believers, but I am sure you can agree that the hijackers used an extremist view of islam as the basis for their attack?
I am sure before 9/11, the same disassociation with terrorism occurred among the religious leaders of islam, but an attack still happened. These fringe groups of islamic terrorists, and extremists cannot be easily identified or traced, but people can trace them to islam. See the link?
Our religious tolerance has overcome that bias though, as represented by more than a thousand mosques in America. I am not sure how people are being intolerant though, when quite a few people are upset that they want to build a mosque near the ground zero site for the sole purpose of creating some sort of symbol, or propaganda tool out of it. It is clearly evident that is why he is building it there, and opening it on that date. I think the families of the victims have a right to be upset that the victims of 9/11 are going to be used like that. Let them rest in peace. No law should stop them, and no criminal should sabotage them, but let them be sensitive to a great tragedy that occurred nearly 10 years ago.
Were the 9/11 hijackers associated with islam? We cannot blame the religion for not keeping a handle on its billions of believers, but I am sure you can agree that the hijackers used an extremist view of islam as the basis for their attack?
I am sure before 9/11, the same disassociation with terrorism occurred among the religious leaders of islam, but an attack still happened. These fringe groups of islamic terrorists, and extremists cannot be easily identified or traced, but people can trace them to islam. See the link?
Our religious tolerance has overcome that bias though, as represented by more than a thousand mosques in America. I am not sure how people are being intolerant though, when quite a few people are upset that they want to build a mosque near the ground zero site for the sole purpose of creating some sort of symbol, or propaganda tool out of it. It is clearly evident that is why he is building it there, and opening it on that date. I think the families of the victims have a right to be upset that the victims of 9/11 are going to be used like that. Let them rest in peace. No law should stop them, and no criminal should sabotage them, but let them be sensitive to a great tragedy that occurred nearly 10 years ago.
I just read that NYPost Article. Do they have any evidence that they are planning on opening it on 9/11/11?
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011
[quote name='IRHari']I just read that NYPost Article. Do they have any evidence that they are planning on opening it on 9/11/11?
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011[/QUOTE]
Of course there's no evidence. Not that it would stop Knoell or NYPost*cough*NewsCorp*cough* from trotting it out as the gospel truth.
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011[/QUOTE]
Of course there's no evidence. Not that it would stop Knoell or NYPost*cough*NewsCorp*cough* from trotting it out as the gospel truth.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='IRHari']I just read that NYPost Article. Do they have any evidence that they are planning on opening it on 9/11/11?
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011[/QUOTE]
Let's assume they did open the mosque on 9/11. Then what?
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011[/QUOTE]
Let's assume they did open the mosque on 9/11. Then what?
I don't know. You're going to have to ask butthurt Knoell about 'then what.'
My guess would be 'omg its a victory mosque' and opening it on 9/11 would embolden our enemies, and Al Qaeda would view it as a victory. I'm curious to know why Knoell cares so much about Al Qaeda and their delicateing sensibilities.
My guess would be 'omg its a victory mosque' and opening it on 9/11 would embolden our enemies, and Al Qaeda would view it as a victory. I'm curious to know why Knoell cares so much about Al Qaeda and their delicate
ing sensibilities.
fatherofcaitlyn
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Back in the 60s, my dad got his ass whooped by a Christian. My current and future bosses are Christians. I should ask them to apologize for the actions of that Christian 50 years ago, right?
Well foc, it would depend on some things. If the guy who beat your dad's ass claimed to do it in the name of 'Christianity' you'd have to believe him if you were Knoell.
If you were Knoell, you wouldn't think critically about it and say 'hey this is just a crazy who doesn't represent all of Christianity.' You'd say 'oh derp he said he did it in the name of Christianity so we'll believe him and say it's insensitive to build churches near that site.'
If you were Knoell, you wouldn't think critically about it and say 'hey this is just a crazy
who doesn't represent all of Christianity.' You'd say 'oh derp he said he did it in the name of Christianity so we'll believe him and say it's insensitive to build churches near that site.'
depascal22
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Let's assume they did open the mosque on 9/11. Then what?[/QUOTE]
Then we can all get our swim on the next day.
Then we can all get our swim on the next day.
1.) Impossible to be built 373 days from today. Just not happening.
2.) Victory Mosque was a funny monicker for a week, can we get over that now?
3.) As has been stated numerous times, there's absolutely nothing illegal about this building being built where it is proposed to be built.
4.) About 7 posts ago someone mentioned that it would be nice of the people that want to build this thing to ponder relocation as a sign of respect and understanding. What's really interesting is that us peacful Americans are acting much more aggressively about the topic than those terrorist swine that want to build their temple as an ode to destruction on our hallowed ground
4b.) The planning commitee for this building should take notice of the scorn and realize that their mosque will be a major target of vandalism at the very least and victims of a pitchfork and torch carrying mob at the worst. This isn't to say that the scorn is justified, or even reasonable, but it is most certainly there.
5.) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there's what, a billion muslims in the world? If that's the case, 12/1,000,000,000 is pretty decent odds that a couple thousand downtown New Yorker muslims won't be planning more terrorism and carrying it out from within the proposed facility.
2.) Victory Mosque was a funny monicker for a week, can we get over that now?
3.) As has been stated numerous times, there's absolutely nothing illegal about this building being built where it is proposed to be built.
4.) About 7 posts ago someone mentioned that it would be nice of the people that want to build this thing to ponder relocation as a sign of respect and understanding. What's really interesting is that us peacful Americans are acting much more aggressively about the topic than those terrorist swine that want to build their temple as an ode to destruction on our hallowed ground
4b.) The planning commitee for this building should take notice of the scorn and realize that their mosque will be a major target of vandalism at the very least and victims of a pitchfork and torch carrying mob at the worst. This isn't to say that the scorn is justified, or even reasonable, but it is most certainly there.
5.) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there's what, a billion muslims in the world? If that's the case, 12/1,000,000,000 is pretty decent odds that a couple thousand downtown New Yorker muslims won't be planning more terrorism and carrying it out from within the proposed facility.
[quote name='IRHari']I just read that NYPost Article. Do they have any evidence that they are planning on opening it on 9/11/11?
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011[/QUOTE]
The NYP article was written about four months before the whole bus ad campaign law suit occurred, so I do not know where the NYP received the information. The 9/11/11 opening date is illogical at this time obviously, since it isn't even funded yet.
However like Foc said (however mockingly) what if they did? Would that break the line of insensitivity or would people still not be able to get upset on account of being called bigots if they do.
Cause I found some evidence that they are not planning to do that at all.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011[/QUOTE]
The NYP article was written about four months before the whole bus ad campaign law suit occurred, so I do not know where the NYP received the information. The 9/11/11 opening date is illogical at this time obviously, since it isn't even funded yet.
However like Foc said (however mockingly) what if they did? Would that break the line of insensitivity or would people still not be able to get upset on account of being called bigots if they do.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Back in the 60s, my dad got his ass whooped by a Christian. My current and future bosses are Christians. I should ask them to apologize for the actions of that Christian 50 years ago, right?[/QUOTE]
Who is asking them to apologize again?
Nice strawman. Actually the lot of you, nice strawman.
Actually it would be more like christian extremists murdering your dad, and everyone in his office, your little brother who was in daycare and a few hundred people on planes and then the christian church saying "hey we aren't like that! it is absolutely necessary to put a mega church right next to the site to prove we aren't like that."
Sounds a bit douchy to me whatever religion you put in the blank.
Who is asking them to apologize again?
Nice strawman. Actually the lot of you, nice strawman.
Actually it would be more like christian extremists murdering your dad, and everyone in his office, your little brother who was in daycare and a few hundred people on planes and then the christian church saying "hey we aren't like that! it is absolutely necessary to put a mega church right next to the site to prove we aren't like that."
Sounds a bit douchy to me whatever religion you put in the blank.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Back in the 60s, my dad got his ass whooped by a Christian. My current and future bosses are Christians. I should ask them to apologize for the actions of that Christian 50 years ago, right?[/QUOTE]
Let's ask the people who think every sitting Republican politician should have to come out and denounce Beck or Rush every time either of them say something stupid or in poor taste.
Let's ask the people who think every sitting Republican politician should have to come out and denounce Beck or Rush every time either of them say something stupid or in poor taste.
Dr Mario Kart
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I do actually blame the entirety of the religion for what any one person does in its name. But I would have every religious building in the world razed. Moderates provide cover for extremists, whether they like it or not. Alas, I cannot get that view into the Constitution.
I actually see Christian extremists as vastly worse than Muslim ones. Presenting the proposition of conversion or death (or even just death) - that is honest and without pretense. Preying on the downtrodden (missionaries) and fooling/coercing people into voluntarily joining your side is the worst thing.
Thats only a general, indirect objection that doesnt apply very well here, given that its not a mosque nor is it at ground zero. That the building has a prayer room is only mildly regrettable, but only in the sense that prayer rooms existing in this world is regrettable.
I actually see Christian extremists as vastly worse than Muslim ones. Presenting the proposition of conversion or death (or even just death) - that is honest and without pretense. Preying on the downtrodden (missionaries) and fooling/coercing people into voluntarily joining your side is the worst thing.
Thats only a general, indirect objection that doesnt apply very well here, given that its not a mosque nor is it at ground zero. That the building has a prayer room is only mildly regrettable, but only in the sense that prayer rooms existing in this world is regrettable.
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I'm going to admit something that not many atheists (not capitalized for once 
) probably won't, science can be twisted and misused just as easily as religion can. That isn't to say that I'm defending the concept of religion, but scientific theories and religious beliefs can both be used to justify horrible acts. Darwin's theory of evolution was used to justify eugenics by many, and they felt they were simply helping natural selection basically. It isn't much different than using some religious belief like "They're infidels/heretics" to justify killing people. It's just taking a belief/theory, picking out what works for you, and using it as an excuse for something.
I've toned down my anti-religion rhetoric in the last year or so, as I'm beginning to see that militants on either side are far too extreme for me. I still respect Dawkins for example, and enjoy his work, but the more militant atheists are just a little too aggressive for me. I can't go so far as some who use the 9/11 hijackings as proof for why religion is a bad thing. I know that not all followers of a religion share exactly the same beliefs, and plenty of muslims were horrified by the 9/11 attacks too, probably more than anyone else, because I'm sure they feared a backlash against them.
I do still think that religion divides people more than it brings them together, but I also know that a religion and it's followers are not one in the same. Very few people follow their religions strictly, most people recognize the ridiculous when they see it. Granted it is funny that something like no pre-marital sex seems ridiculous to some, but their belief in god doesn't, but that could be a whole post in itself.
) probably won't, science can be twisted and misused just as easily as religion can. That isn't to say that I'm defending the concept of religion, but scientific theories and religious beliefs can both be used to justify horrible acts. Darwin's theory of evolution was used to justify eugenics by many, and they felt they were simply helping natural selection basically. It isn't much different than using some religious belief like "They're infidels/heretics" to justify killing people. It's just taking a belief/theory, picking out what works for you, and using it as an excuse for something.I've toned down my anti-religion rhetoric in the last year or so, as I'm beginning to see that militants on either side are far too extreme for me. I still respect Dawkins for example, and enjoy his work, but the more militant atheists are just a little too aggressive for me. I can't go so far as some who use the 9/11 hijackings as proof for why religion is a bad thing. I know that not all followers of a religion share exactly the same beliefs, and plenty of muslims were horrified by the 9/11 attacks too, probably more than anyone else, because I'm sure they feared a backlash against them.
I do still think that religion divides people more than it brings them together, but I also know that a religion and it's followers are not one in the same. Very few people follow their religions strictly, most people recognize the ridiculous when they see it. Granted it is funny that something like no pre-marital sex seems ridiculous to some, but their belief in god doesn't, but that could be a whole post in itself.
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Back in the 60s, my dad got his ass whooped by a Christian. My current and future bosses are Christians. I should ask them to apologize for the actions of that Christian 50 years ago, right?[/QUOTE]
Was your dad murdered by this Christian because their interpretation of Christianity made them believe he was their enemy and did your bosses go and erect crosses next to where he died, in good intentions, even though there was another site down the road where they could have done it instead? And did they try to do it 7-9 years later, not 50? If so then yes ask for an apology.
[quote name='dohdough']"Victims of 9/11?" I'm sure there were no innocent Muslims killed in those attacks or fighting against/killing other Muslims under our flag either.
[/QUOTE]
The Muslims killed by the attacks were also victims, but a mosque to them has always been part of their life. If your friends or family were killed by followers of a religion you know little about would you be upset if different followers built a symbol of that religion next to where the killings took place? On the other hand, if you followed that same religion your whole life and were dedicated to it would you feel any differently about what the mosque represents?
When we goto war with another country do we later have ambassadors put up American flags next to where the foreigners died 9 years after the war is over, in good intentions to represent how we liberated them? Or do we realize that those who had been killed by us don't deserve a constant reminder of something tied to their deaths.
[quote name='IRHari']What the hell. Islam doesn't kill people. People kill people. Since the people building the mosque are in no way associated with the 9/11 hijackers or Al Qaeda, there should be no problem.[/QUOTE]
Nobody said Islam killed people. An isolated group of followers of Islam base their holy war against us on their interpretation of Islam. A mosque where those attacks happened is a constant reminder to the victims. It's not the people behind the mosque, it's what the mosque represents to the victims. Not what it represents to you or me. I want them to be able to build mosques. Cover our country in them. But don't force them next to where the deaths of people took place by separate followers of their religion.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']It's weird to see you under the bigot banner.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/09/20/religion-is-a-drug.htm[/QUOTE]
Why not have a dialogue between what I said and your beliefs instead of using personal attacks. Wait... nevermind. Keep doing what you're doing...
Was your dad murdered by this Christian because their interpretation of Christianity made them believe he was their enemy and did your bosses go and erect crosses next to where he died, in good intentions, even though there was another site down the road where they could have done it instead? And did they try to do it 7-9 years later, not 50? If so then yes ask for an apology.
[quote name='dohdough']"Victims of 9/11?" I'm sure there were no innocent Muslims killed in those attacks or fighting against/killing other Muslims under our flag either.
[/QUOTE]The Muslims killed by the attacks were also victims, but a mosque to them has always been part of their life. If your friends or family were killed by followers of a religion you know little about would you be upset if different followers built a symbol of that religion next to where the killings took place? On the other hand, if you followed that same religion your whole life and were dedicated to it would you feel any differently about what the mosque represents?
When we goto war with another country do we later have ambassadors put up American flags next to where the foreigners died 9 years after the war is over, in good intentions to represent how we liberated them? Or do we realize that those who had been killed by us don't deserve a constant reminder of something tied to their deaths.
[quote name='IRHari']What the hell. Islam doesn't kill people. People kill people. Since the people building the mosque are in no way associated with the 9/11 hijackers or Al Qaeda, there should be no problem.[/QUOTE]
Nobody said Islam killed people. An isolated group of followers of Islam base their holy war against us on their interpretation of Islam. A mosque where those attacks happened is a constant reminder to the victims. It's not the people behind the mosque, it's what the mosque represents to the victims. Not what it represents to you or me. I want them to be able to build mosques. Cover our country in them. But don't force them next to where the deaths of people took place by separate followers of their religion.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']It's weird to see you under the bigot banner.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/09/20/religion-is-a-drug.htm[/QUOTE]
Why not have a dialogue between what I said and your beliefs instead of using personal attacks. Wait... nevermind. Keep doing what you're doing...
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='J7.']Why not have a dialogue between what I said and your beliefs instead of using personal attacks. Wait... nevermind. Keep doing what you're doing...[/QUOTE]
We've had the dialogue multiple times in this thread.
Here's how a lot of thread in Vs. work:
1. One side develops an opinion.
2. Another side develops an opinion.
3. Each side presents the backing to their opinion.
4. The thread dies for the most part.
5. Somebody wanders into the Vs. forum and states an opinion identical to one side without reading anything else in the thread.
6. Somebody receives insults based on how crude the stated opinion is compared to the current form of the argument.
Case in point, you post the page 1 argument of "Islam is Terrorism!"
Despite being an intelligent and sensitive person in other areas, you're holding the opinion of a bigot on this topic.
Do you have something more to offer than "Islam is Terrorism!"?
We've had the dialogue multiple times in this thread.
Here's how a lot of thread in Vs. work:
1. One side develops an opinion.
2. Another side develops an opinion.
3. Each side presents the backing to their opinion.
4. The thread dies for the most part.
5. Somebody wanders into the Vs. forum and states an opinion identical to one side without reading anything else in the thread.
6. Somebody receives insults based on how crude the stated opinion is compared to the current form of the argument.
Case in point, you post the page 1 argument of "Islam is Terrorism!"
Despite being an intelligent and sensitive person in other areas, you're holding the opinion of a bigot on this topic.
Do you have something more to offer than "Islam is Terrorism!"?
[quote name='J7.'] And did they try to do it 7-9 years later, not 50?[/QUOTE]
Ah so we can presume that if the Park 51 dudes built it 50 years after 9/11 and not 7-9 years later it wouldn't be as controversial? Nice arbitrary sensitivity timeline.
What does it represent? I think you're implying that this mosque represents terrorism. That's Islam = terrorism.
Look, the builders of this mosque had nothing to do with 9/11. They're Muslims, and the people who did 9/11 were crazy people who just happened to follow an extreme version of Islam. They have no responsibility to move the mosque because they were in no way responsible for 9/11.
The NRA didn't move their annual convention near Columbine when people said it was 'insensitive', because the NRA was in no way responsible for the Columbine tragedy.
In the end, your 'mosque-free' zone that you've drawn around GZ is completely arbitrary.
Ah so we can presume that if the Park 51 dudes built it 50 years after 9/11 and not 7-9 years later it wouldn't be as controversial? Nice arbitrary sensitivity timeline.
What does it represent? I think you're implying that this mosque represents terrorism. That's Islam = terrorism.
Look, the builders of this mosque had nothing to do with 9/11. They're Muslims, and the people who did 9/11 were crazy people who just happened to follow an extreme version of Islam. They have no responsibility to move the mosque because they were in no way responsible for 9/11.
The NRA didn't move their annual convention near Columbine when people said it was 'insensitive', because the NRA was in no way responsible for the Columbine tragedy.
In the end, your 'mosque-free' zone that you've drawn around GZ is completely arbitrary.
fatherofcaitlyn
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Through the use of fiction, I'll try to point out the stupidity of the bigots' side.
A decade ago, a man from out of state walked into a packed swimming pool. He pulled out several guns and started shooting whilst screaming "Imma Jew!" This man killed fity men. Afterward, the pool was drained and never reopened.
Today, a local man wants to build a synagogue and a payday advance five blocks away from the swimming pool. People in the community are outraged because somebody would build symbols of Judaism so close to a tragic hole in the ground.
...
Random thought 1: Ramadan doesn't translate into Ramming Speed.
Random thought 2: Those damn, dirty Muzzies actually believe in giving money to the poor.
A decade ago, a man from out of state walked into a packed swimming pool. He pulled out several guns and started shooting whilst screaming "Imma Jew!" This man killed fity men. Afterward, the pool was drained and never reopened.
Today, a local man wants to build a synagogue and a payday advance five blocks away from the swimming pool. People in the community are outraged because somebody would build symbols of Judaism so close to a tragic hole in the ground.
...
Random thought 1: Ramadan doesn't translate into Ramming Speed.
Random thought 2: Those damn, dirty Muzzies actually believe in giving money to the poor.
panzerfaust
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You can stop going out of your way with outrageous analogies. Just ask the question:
"hey, if 9/11 was done by Christian extremists, would NY care if 10 years later a church was built a few blocks away from the site?"
"hey, if 9/11 was done by Christian extremists, would NY care if 10 years later a church was built a few blocks away from the site?"
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='panzerfaust']You can stop going out of your way with outrageous analogies. Just ask the question:
"hey, if 9/11 was done by Christian extremists, would NY care if 10 years later a church was built a few blocks away from the site?"[/QUOTE]
NY wouldn't be in the right in that case either. The analogy is accurate.
"hey, if 9/11 was done by Christian extremists, would NY care if 10 years later a church was built a few blocks away from the site?"[/QUOTE]
NY wouldn't be in the right in that case either. The analogy is accurate.
[quote name='IRHari']
The NRA didn't move their annual convention near Columbine when people said it was 'insensitive', because the NRA was in no way responsible for the Columbine tragedy.
In the end, your 'mosque-free' zone that you've drawn around GZ is completely arbitrary.[/QUOTE]
I am curious as to whether or not you think the people protesting the NRA should have been silenced by the opposing side simply because they didn't have a legal leg to stand on? now be honest
It doesn't matter if it is moved or not, but people have every right to protest and voice their opinion, not just when you agree.
The NRA didn't move their annual convention near Columbine when people said it was 'insensitive', because the NRA was in no way responsible for the Columbine tragedy.
In the end, your 'mosque-free' zone that you've drawn around GZ is completely arbitrary.[/QUOTE]
I am curious as to whether or not you think the people protesting the NRA should have been silenced by the opposing side simply because they didn't have a legal leg to stand on? now be honest
It doesn't matter if it is moved or not, but people have every right to protest and voice their opinion, not just when you agree.
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I do actually blame the entirety of the religion for what any one person does in its name. But I would have every religious building in the world razed. Moderates provide cover for extremists, whether they like it or not. Alas, I cannot get that view into the Constitution.
I actually see Christian extremists as vastly worse than Muslim ones. Presenting the proposition of conversion or death (or even just death) - that is honest and without pretense. Preying on the downtrodden (missionaries) and fooling/coercing people into voluntarily joining your side is the worst thing.
Thats only a general, indirect objection that doesnt apply very well here, given that its not a mosque nor is it at ground zero. That the building has a prayer room is only mildly regrettable, but only in the sense that prayer rooms existing in this world is regrettable.[/QUOTE]
and nearly a page goes by, and noone condemns these statements in which he claims peaceful missionairies are on the side of christian extremism which is somehow worse than islamic extremism's terrorism.
Not a single response calling him a bigot.
Why protect the majority indeed.
I actually see Christian extremists as vastly worse than Muslim ones. Presenting the proposition of conversion or death (or even just death) - that is honest and without pretense. Preying on the downtrodden (missionaries) and fooling/coercing people into voluntarily joining your side is the worst thing.
Thats only a general, indirect objection that doesnt apply very well here, given that its not a mosque nor is it at ground zero. That the building has a prayer room is only mildly regrettable, but only in the sense that prayer rooms existing in this world is regrettable.[/QUOTE]
and nearly a page goes by, and noone condemns these statements in which he claims peaceful missionairies are on the side of christian extremism which is somehow worse than islamic extremism's terrorism.
Not a single response calling him a bigot.
Why protect the majority indeed.
Dr Mario Kart
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No need. I'll do it. Pretty much anyone who is a bigot will deny it. I am definitely a bigot. I am not tolerant of religion. It is a cancer that has no place in this world. Though I'm not sure that saying that missionaries are the worst thing in particular is bigoted, anymore than claiming that suicide bombers are worse than ____.
I could phrase it this way instead - It is my view that psychological warfare/terrorism is worse than physical violence/terrorism.
As an aside, I have to ask - Would it be bigoted to say that all believers of Zeus are idiots? Being a bigot has such a negative stigma. I'm totally taking it back.
I could phrase it this way instead - It is my view that psychological warfare/terrorism is worse than physical violence/terrorism.
As an aside, I have to ask - Would it be bigoted to say that all believers of Zeus are idiots? Being a bigot has such a negative stigma. I'm totally taking it back.
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[quote name='Knoell']I am curious as to whether or not you think the people protesting the NRA should have been silenced by the opposing side simply because they didn't have a legal leg to stand on? now be honest
It doesn't matter if it is moved or not, but people have every right to protest and voice their opinion, not just when you agree.[/QUOTE]
No one (at least I'm not) arguing that protestors should be silenced. This is the second time you've said this, and it's really douchy because no one has said they don't have the right; no one has said they should be silenced.
It's a nice starman, but it doesn't match reality. Everyone has the right to protest, even if the protesting is based on Muslims = Al Qaeda, or Muslims building 2 blocks from GZ is insensitive.
The protests aren't based on facts, that's all we're saying.
It doesn't matter if it is moved or not, but people have every right to protest and voice their opinion, not just when you agree.[/QUOTE]
No one (at least I'm not) arguing that protestors should be silenced. This is the second time you've said this, and it's really douchy because no one has said they don't have the right; no one has said they should be silenced.
It's a nice starman, but it doesn't match reality. Everyone has the right to protest, even if the protesting is based on Muslims = Al Qaeda, or Muslims building 2 blocks from GZ is insensitive.
The protests aren't based on facts, that's all we're saying.
A lot of churches operate like corporations in regards to PR. Go on a mission to some third world country, but try to convert the people you encounter. Help out a local school, but put advertising for your church all over the place (that one happened right here in my town). Sometimes they help people solely to help them, sometimes they want something in return, even if it's just good PR.
Just seems to me that much of the things churches do for folks isn't exactly done out of the "goodness of their hearts", they're getting something in return much of the time, even if it's just new converts for their religion.
Just seems to me that much of the things churches do for folks isn't exactly done out of the "goodness of their hearts", they're getting something in return much of the time, even if it's just new converts for their religion.
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']No need. I'll do it. Pretty much anyone who is a bigot will deny it. I am definitely a bigot. I am not tolerant of religion. It is a cancer that has no place in this world. Though I'm not sure that saying that missionaries are the worst thing in particular is bigoted, anymore than claiming that suicide bombers are worse than ____.
I could phrase it this way instead - It is my view that psychological warfare/terrorism is worse than physical violence/terrorism.
As an aside, I have to ask - Would it be bigoted to say that all believers of Zeus are idiots? Being a bigot has such a negative stigma. I'm totally taking it back.[/QUOTE]
Now missionaries are the same classification as psychological warfare/terrorism, this keeps getting better and better.
Still no one?
I could phrase it this way instead - It is my view that psychological warfare/terrorism is worse than physical violence/terrorism.
As an aside, I have to ask - Would it be bigoted to say that all believers of Zeus are idiots? Being a bigot has such a negative stigma. I'm totally taking it back.[/QUOTE]
Now missionaries are the same classification as psychological warfare/terrorism, this keeps getting better and better.
Still no one?
[quote name='IRHari']No one (at least I'm not) arguing that protestors should be silenced. This is the second time you've said this, and it's really douchy because no one has said they don't have the right; no one has said they should be silenced.
It's a nice starman, but it doesn't match reality. Everyone has the right to protest, even if the protesting is based on Muslims = Al Qaeda, or Muslims building 2 blocks from GZ is insensitive.
The protests aren't based on facts, that's all we're saying.[/QUOTE]
Generalizing and demonizing their point of view as bigotry, intolerant, and hateful is doing the same thing. You are running a smear campaign on the protestors because you disagree with their point of view. I don't care if you disagree with them, but boiling them down to intolerant bigots is not doing anyone justice because they arent (or most), just as anyone (or most) protesting the NRA are not anti constitution nutjobs that want to take our guns.
Both have the right to protest whatever the hell they want, and we have the right to disagree, but I don't think a smear campaign in either case is justified.
It's a nice starman, but it doesn't match reality. Everyone has the right to protest, even if the protesting is based on Muslims = Al Qaeda, or Muslims building 2 blocks from GZ is insensitive.
The protests aren't based on facts, that's all we're saying.[/QUOTE]
Generalizing and demonizing their point of view as bigotry, intolerant, and hateful is doing the same thing. You are running a smear campaign on the protestors because you disagree with their point of view. I don't care if you disagree with them, but boiling them down to intolerant bigots is not doing anyone justice because they arent (or most), just as anyone (or most) protesting the NRA are not anti constitution nutjobs that want to take our guns.
Both have the right to protest whatever the hell they want, and we have the right to disagree, but I don't think a smear campaign in either case is justified.
[quote name='Knoell']Both have the right to protest whatever the hell they want, and we have the right to disagree, but I don't think a smear campaign in either case is justified.[/QUOTE]
1) You basically have been running a smear campaign 2) bigoted is as good a word as any to describe what the mosque protesters are all about.
1) You basically have been running a smear campaign 2) bigoted is as good a word as any to describe what the mosque protesters are all about.
Knoell, I reiterate post #494 - http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7560857&postcount=494
I don't think you ever replied to it and it's apparently still relevant. You can leave off the last part if you want, but what about the rest?
I don't think you ever replied to it and it's apparently still relevant. You can leave off the last part if you want, but what about the rest?
[quote name='SpazX']Knoell, I reiterate post #494 - http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7560857&postcount=494
I don't think you ever replied to it and it's apparently still relevant. You can leave off the last part if you want, but what about the rest?[/QUOTE]
Any number of my posts have answered your questions, I didn't feel the need to rehash it.
The people against the mosque have reasons besides your classic "I hate muslims". I have stated those reasons, if you disagree then fine, but because you don't agree with those reasons does not mean you should revert back to calling them bigots.
I don't think you ever replied to it and it's apparently still relevant. You can leave off the last part if you want, but what about the rest?[/QUOTE]
Any number of my posts have answered your questions, I didn't feel the need to rehash it.
The people against the mosque have reasons besides your classic "I hate muslims". I have stated those reasons, if you disagree then fine, but because you don't agree with those reasons does not mean you should revert back to calling them bigots.
[quote name='SpazX']You've repeated the same things dozens of times, sum it up for me this once.[/QUOTE]
There is the rub. You have to answer every question knoell asks, even if it is just a different phrasing of something that you answered 14 times before.
However, Knoell can ignore anything you ask of him and any mention of it is just a personal attack.
There is the rub. You have to answer every question knoell asks, even if it is just a different phrasing of something that you answered 14 times before.
However, Knoell can ignore anything you ask of him and any mention of it is just a personal attack.
Trancendental
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[quote name='Clak']A lot of churches operate like corporations in regards to PR. Go on a mission to some third world country, but try to convert the people you encounter. Help out a local school, but put advertising for your church all over the place (that one happened right here in my town). Sometimes they help people solely to help them, sometimes they want something in return, even if it's just good PR.
Just seems to me that much of the things churches do for folks isn't exactly done out of the "goodness of their hearts", they're getting something in return much of the time, even if it's just new converts for their religion.[/QUOTE]
I don't really agree. As I understand the religion, out of all of the self-identified Christians the people who actually go out and help others are the true Christians. Honestly if you are willing to goto a third-world country and help those people I see absolutely nothing wrong in introducing them to the religion or philosophy that motivated you.
The church hierarchy is a different matter. Many times I don't think it's a tit-for-tat, it's more of a Machiavellian fight for what they believe in. It underscores the basic problem with Abrahamic religions - violence and underhanded tactics can be justified in the name of the relevant god.
Just seems to me that much of the things churches do for folks isn't exactly done out of the "goodness of their hearts", they're getting something in return much of the time, even if it's just new converts for their religion.[/QUOTE]
I don't really agree. As I understand the religion, out of all of the self-identified Christians the people who actually go out and help others are the true Christians. Honestly if you are willing to goto a third-world country and help those people I see absolutely nothing wrong in introducing them to the religion or philosophy that motivated you.
The church hierarchy is a different matter. Many times I don't think it's a tit-for-tat, it's more of a Machiavellian fight for what they believe in. It underscores the basic problem with Abrahamic religions - violence and underhanded tactics can be justified in the name of the relevant god.
bread's done