Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims

This is why I've stopped discussing social issues, because people get too emotional, use snide quips, exaggerations, hyperboles, jump to conclusions, extrapolate arguments, and misdirect. I was beginning to focus on economics but it seems like everyone would rather mindlessly opine instead of using data or reason to back up their position. Its all obstinate opinions here.
 
[quote name='tivo']Its all obstinate opinions here.[/QUOTE]

Yup.

Although, to be fair, if any one of us actually knew what we were talking about, we'd probably be doing something more useful with our knowledge than bickering about crap on some video game forum.
 
[quote name='IRHari']He absolutely has that right. Stop fucking shitting on the Constitution.[/QUOTE]

I was speaking in terms of his ideals. Another mindless attack?

Also it is duely noted that now that you agree with the negative side, the constitution suddenly protects people that make negative or derogatory comments.

[quote name='Clak']If he can do so in a well researched and articulate way, I say discredit away.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but calling them idiots because he simply disagrees with their policies is not a well researched, articulated way of going about it. It would be the same as someone saying he does not like Reids policy because he is dumb, and white.
 
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[quote name='tivo']. I was beginning to focus on economics but it seems like everyone would rather mindlessly opine instead of using data or reason to back up their position. Its all obstinate opinions here.[/QUOTE]

Speak for yourself tiv.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I was speaking in terms of his ideals. Another mindless attack? [/QUOTE]

Well you didn't say his ideals.

[quote name='Knoell'] Also it is duely noted that now that you agree with the negative side, the constitution suddenly protects people that make negative or derogatory comments.[/QUOTE]

I have NEVER questioned the Constitution protects speech that is dickish or douchy. You're good at creating starman arguments bro, I never said I agree with the negative side, and I have NEVER questioned the idea that their speech is protected by the Constitution. Stay classy though.
 
[quote name='tivo']so why does one deserve an apology and not the other. That was my point depascal failed to grasp.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I get your point and it sucks big fat donkey balls. Again, stop pulling misdirects.

This is about equating Islam with terrorism and not equating "poor" baggers with the oppressed, downtrodden masses. You make false equivalencies and then dare to say that I'm not getting the point AND accusing me of pulling the misdirect. You have no leg to stand on.

Can one of you please make an argument for not building this mosque that doesn't have "The hijackers were Muslims so you can't build a victory monument so close to Ground Zero?"

Please stop with the insensitivity bullshit also. We all know you don't give a damn about anything but cash, money, and boys.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Oh, I get your point and it sucks big fat donkey balls. Again, stop pulling misdirects.

This is about equating Islam with terrorism and not equating "poor" baggers with the oppressed, downtrodden masses. You make false equivalencies and then dare to say that I'm not getting the point AND accusing me of pulling the misdirect. You have no leg to stand on.[/QUOTE]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaayum. Well done, despacsal. Not bad for a cat from the state of Indiana.
 
[quote name='tivo']^^ meh. He apologizes for the bigotry and craziness the media has propped up against Muslims. I wonder when someone will apologize for the bigotry and craziness directed against the Tea Party, equating the whole with a few extremists and rattling of intolerant slurs against them.


P.S. who are all the cons?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure Muslims are concerned about members of the media threatening or harrassing them. And I'm having trouble seeing what the Tea Party has to do with this community center, or concerns about violence and harrassment against Muslims.

Oh wait, you were trying to make it one of those, "but hey, people make fun of my group, why don't people have sympathy for me?"

Once you have a Tea Party cabbie get stabbed in the throat, have TP gathering halls torched or protested, and have people in powerful positions within the government speak out on all members of the TP Party based on the whacky words of a few members, then you start getting closer to an apples to apples comparison.

I can see it now: Passenger in back seat of cab yells out, "This is my universal health care plan" stabbing the driver in the neck. "I
 
[quote name='berzirk']

Once you have a Tea Party cabbie get stabbed in the throat, have TP gathering halls torched or protested, and have people in powerful positions within the government speak out on all members of the TP Party based on the whacky words of a few members, then you start getting closer to an apples to apples comparison.
[/QUOTE]

That has happened, and didn't someone bite someones finger off or something? Oh wait, isn't the tea party counter protested? hmmm we've got violence, protesting, and government interferance, 3/4 ain't bad for such specific apples.

Also this isn't one of those "why dont you have sympathy for my group" arguments, it is a "why don't you stick to your ideals even when you disagree with the people" arguement.
 
That's it, Knoell. Back to ignore with you. If you can equate one dude getting a finger bit with mosques being fire bombed, you're a fucking moron. This isn't about ideals anymore. You claim to be a fan of the Constitution but you'll excuse outright bigotry against Islam because one dude got a finger bit? Really?

Do you honestly sit there and pretend that the two things are equal and that we should pretend that Tea Party is a poor group of people on par with current day Islam and Blacks of the last century? Do you even listen to what you say anymore?
 
[quote name='depascal22']That's it, Knoell. Back to ignore with you. If you can equate one dude getting a finger bit with mosques being fire bombed, you're a fucking moron. This isn't about ideals anymore. You claim to be a fan of the Constitution but you'll excuse outright bigotry against Islam because one dude got a finger bit? Really?

Do you honestly sit there and pretend that the two things are equal and that we should pretend that Tea Party is a poor group of people on par with current day Islam and Blacks of the last century? Do you even listen to what you say anymore?[/QUOTE]

Mosques are being firebombed in the US? where?

Also I am not excusing out right bigotry at all. I would love to see exactly where in my post you got this fantastical idea from. You all seem to identify anyone opposed to the mosque, or similiarly anyone opposed to big government (the tea party) as a single group responsible for the actions of the few outspoken idiots. All we are saying is stick to your ideals that you cannot judge a mass of people on the actions of the few.

it does not have to be on the same scale to fit your ideals.
 
[quote name='Knoell']That has happened, and didn't someone bite someones finger off or something? Oh wait, isn't the tea party counter protested? hmmm we've got violence, protesting, and government interferance, 3/4 ain't bad for such specific apples.

Also this isn't one of those "why dont you have sympathy for my group" arguments, it is a "why don't you stick to your ideals even when you disagree with the people" arguement.[/QUOTE]

Bleh, you again. Replies came in after I posted the article about the guy apologizing to Muslims. Why the flip, flying, factory would a sane person start extending that to every group that feels slighted and say, "Hey, where's my apology!?" It was totally irrelevant. At least to me, that's what was mockworthy. Well, that and the fact that real violence is occuring against Muslims simply because they choose to call God Allah, and folks don't care to realize that all muslims aren't terrorists vs. someone getting pissy cause Sarah Palin and her ilk are called idiots. I'm just not finding myself caring equally on these two issues. Chalk it up to bias.

I apologize to any left-handed, nazi, eskimos who were offended by this message.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Mosques are being firebombed in the US? where?

Also I am not excusing out right bigotry at all. I would love to see exactly where in my post you got this fantastical idea from. You all seem to identify anyone opposed to the mosque, or similiarly anyone opposed to big government (the tea party) as a single group responsible for the actions of the few outspoken idiots. All we are saying is stick to your ideals that you cannot judge a mass of people on the actions of the few.

it does not have to be on the same scale to fit your ideals.[/QUOTE]

My guess is that he's referring to the Tennessee incident where equipment at a mosque site was burnt and destroyed.

Here's an article talking about violence/harrassment against Muslims:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/indepth/2010-09/21/c_13523211.htm

Regarding finger biting, I hadn't heard anything about it. Is it this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he5fpsmH_2g
 
[quote name='berzirk']Bleh, you again. Replies came in after I posted the article about the guy apologizing to Muslims. Why the flip, flying, factory would a sane person start extending that to every group that feels slighted and say, "Hey, where's my apology!?" It was totally irrelevant. At least to me, that's what was mockworthy. Well, that and the fact that real violence is occuring against Muslims simply because they choose to call God Allah, and folks don't care to realize that all muslims aren't terrorists vs. someone getting pissy cause Sarah Palin and her ilk are called idiots. I'm just not finding myself caring equally on these two issues. Chalk it up to bias.

I apologize to any left-handed, nazi, eskimos who were offended by this message.[/QUOTE]

So according to your ideals, you only defend major groups from bigoted attacks? is that it? Problem is you quickly forget that you were calling 60% of Americans bigoted racists.
 
[quote name='Knoell']So according to your ideals, you only defend major groups from bigoted attacks? is that it? Problem is you quickly forget that you were calling 60% of Americans bigoted racists.[/QUOTE]

*sigh. I called 60% of Americans bigoted racists? Please quote.

Edit: Actually, hang on...I don't really get what you're trying to say at all, when you say I only defend major groups from attacks. No idea where the actual numbers would fall, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are as many Tea Party members in the US as their are Muslims. Oh hell, now I'm trying to think analytically in relation to a bizarre comment. I'll stop.

I just take violence, threats, and documented vandalism a little more seriously than people thinking Palin is a moron. If you don't, that's fine. We just have different philsophies on crimes vs. opinions.

I apologize to any 7ft pygmy, albinos that were offended by this post.
 
Let's say I live in Quahog, Rhode Island and someone wants to build a Mosque somewhere in town pretty far away from my house. They have all the proper permits and shit, legally they've done everything they're required to.

I don't hate all Muslims. I'm not an Islamophobe. But I don't want the mosque built in Quahog. What possible reasons could I muster for not wanting the mosque built in Quahog?

This question is directed at Knoell, but anyone is free to answer.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Let's say I live in Quahog, Rhode Island and someone wants to build a Mosque somewhere in town pretty far away from my house. They have all the proper permits and shit, legally they've done everything they're required to.

I don't hate all Muslims. I'm not an Islamophobe. But I don't want the mosque built in Quahog. What possible reasons could I muster for not wanting the mosque built in Quahog?

This question is directed at Knoell, but anyone is free to answer.[/QUOTE]

I will say this - I saw a sixty minutes piece where they allowed a minuret to get built in some midwest town, and the muslims put a PA up there that broadcasts a loud-as-hell call to prayer early on weekend mornings. I really don't mind where people build their worship centers, but if you wake me early sunday morning with that ahlalalalalala stuff I'm not going to be happy.
 
[quote name='berzirk']*sigh. I called 60% of Americans bigoted racists? Please quote.

Edit: Actually, hang on...I don't really get what you're trying to say at all, when you say I only defend major groups from attacks. No idea where the actual numbers would fall, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are as many Tea Party members in the US as their are Muslims. Oh hell, now I'm trying to think analytically in relation to a bizarre comment. I'll stop.

I just take violence, threats, and documented vandalism a little more seriously than people thinking Palin is a moron. If you don't, that's fine. We just have different philsophies on crimes vs. opinions.

I apologize to any 7ft pygmy, albinos that were offended by this post.[/QUOTE]

60-some% of all Americans do not want the mosque to be built. You cannot identify with their reasons, so you resort to calling them bigots and racists. My question to you is how that is different from some intolerant fool not being able to identify with the muslim faith, and resorting to calling them all terrorists?

Also are all muslims in the middle east bigoted and racist against christians then? Or is the bar set low for them because they aren't America, so it doesn't count? "they aren't expected to be tolerant, so its A-OK" Right? :roll:
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I cannot identify with a group of people equating the faith of over a billion people to the actions of 19.

You got that right.[/QUOTE]

But you can identify with a group of people equating 225 million people to the actions of racists and bigots because you saw 10, no even 100, no even 1000, no even 10000, no even 100000 people with mean signs?

What's the magic number that allows you to discriminate so freely?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']who are these 225 million people?[/QUOTE]

62% of Americans do not want the mosque in NYC to be built. Edit* rough math sorry 190 million. From the poll one of you guys submitted.
 
So...we're now including infants, children, the infirm and those completely uninterested into our population of people against the mosque?

Including little timmy in the numbers is silly. Ask him what he thinks of the mosque, and he'll ask you if that's in Pokemon Black or White.
 
[quote name='Knoell']60-some% of all Americans do not want the mosque to be built. You cannot identify with their reasons, so you resort to calling them bigots and racists. My question to you is how that is different from some intolerant fool not being able to identify with the muslim faith, and resorting to calling them all terrorists?

Also are all muslims in the middle east bigoted and racist against christians then? Or is the bar set low for them because they aren't America, so it doesn't count? "they aren't expected to be tolerant, so its A-OK" Right? :roll:[/QUOTE]


Haa haa, Knoell, I'm sure there is something we must both agree on. Are you anti-child rape? I've been very strongly anti-child rape for quite some time. Let's agree on that, so we can pretend like we have common ground.

I asked for a quote saying I called 60% of Americans racists or bigots, you didn't provide one, (although you were quick to suggest it). People have asked you what reasons there are to oppose the mosque other than a disdain/fear/hatred of Muslims...you've failed to propose one, but keep playing the "quit ganging up on me card" as your response.

Then regarding middle eastern "bigotry or racism" against Christians-I've spent a great deal of time in a couple different countries over there. Dear friends with hundreds who were born and raised throughout the Middle East. I've even read the Qur'an a few times. Christians are referred to (with Jews) as Ahl -al-kitaab-literally, "People of the Book". It's a title of respect saying these people were presented with Prophets and Messengers. Over time, according to Muslims, through translation mistakes, power struggles, or other means the books got corrupted, but the fact remains, they are mentioned in the Qur'an as some of the earliest good, religious people.

Muslims are allowed to eat meat slaughtered by Christians and Jews and marry from members of those faiths. If Abdullah doesn't like Fred the Christian because he's Christian, then he's not practice a part of his faith.

If Fred opposes mosques being built because they are mosques, then he's opposing his countries' values.

Both men would be wrong in their actions, and would be off of nothing more than emotional reasons, not grounded in logic or fact.

(and this is assuming that Abdullah isn't in an occupied country trying to rebuild after foreign attacks)

So now that I blew a hole in your accusation that I would only criticize irrational Christians or non-Muslims, what will your next accusation be?

I apologize to anyone named Fred or Abdullah who hate Muslims and Christians respectively.
 
[quote name='Knoell']But you can identify with a group of people equating 225 million people to the actions of racists and bigots because you saw 10, no even 100, no even 1000, no even 10000, no even 100000 people with mean signs?

What's the magic number that allows you to discriminate so freely?[/QUOTE]
HAHAHA...you never took a statistics class have you? I took a class for two weeks before I dropped it and can still understand numbers better than you.

19 out of 1,500,000,000 is statistically insignifigant, I don't even know if you could define them as outliers, although they technically are, but still doesn't convey the depth of it's insignifigance. You'd have to do some pretty heavy research into figuring out a hypothesis for this to ascribe the acts of 19 as being integral to the other 1,500,000,000.

Let's go with 50,000 out of 330,000,000. With that number you have a large enough sample size to start hypothesising about who, what, where, when, why, and how. But then again, it's a good thing that distaste for the mosque/community center as being bigoted and racist is not calling all white people bigoted and racist. Just you and your ilk.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']So...we're now including infants, children, the infirm and those completely uninterested into our population of people against the mosque?[/QUOTE]

Don't we always do that?

-ask 1000 random people if they oppose mosque near GZ
-600 say yes they oppose it
-QED the majority of americans oppose mosque near GZ
 
[quote name='berzirk']I don't have the desire to follow your map image in 3-4 separate threads with my same response from the other, so in this one, I'll just quote polls and articles:

"More than 4 in 10 Americans say they have an unfavorable view of Muslims"

"More than 6 in 10 say they do not personally know any Muslim Americans. And these people are more likely than those who personally know a practicing Muslin to say they have a negative opinion of Islam. Indeed, among those who personally know any Muslim Americans, a majority have a favorable view, the poll found." (Translated, I don't like em. Do you know any? No, but I don't like em)

"Most, 55 percent, say that a majority of Muslims in this country are “patriotic Americans who believe in American values.” But that still leaves a significant minority that either say Muslim Americans do not believe in American values (25 percent) or expressed no opinion (21 percent)."

"At the same time, 55 percent say they would support a Muslim proposal to build a community center and place of worship near their own home." (55%? So 45% either would oppose something as benign as building a house of worship, or have no opinion on it?)

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/...any-americans-have-suspicious-views-of-islam/


"Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24% who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html

So if people don't know any Muslims, but don't like them, if only about half of the population would support a mosque being built in their area, if a third of the country doesn't think a Muslim should even be allowed to be President, tell me what good it is to have 1 mosque or 1 million in the US?[/QUOTE]

Now its OK to argue the numbers lol. This is fucking hilarious! Every time you say EVERYONE against the mosque is racist or bigoted, you say whatever 62% of the "adult" population is, are bigoted and racist. You are applying a broad discriminating theme on a mass amount of people.

You can't possibly fathom why people would be sensitive to the area, so you resort to calling it bigotry and racism. Same thing goes for people who think all muslims are terrorists, they cannot fathom a peaceful muslim so they label them all terrorists.

It is the same thing, happy discriminating ;).

[quote name='berzirk']Dazzling. You've now resorted to arguing against math. Good day sir. Don't have the time, don't have the desire. As you were.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='Knoell']Now its OK to argue the numbers lol. This is fucking hilarious! Every time you say EVERYONE against the mosque is racist or bigoted, you say whatever 62% of the "adult" population is, are bigoted and racist. You are applying a broad discriminating theme on a mass amount of people.

You can't possibly fathom why people would be sensitive to the area, so you resort to calling it bigotry and racism. Same thing goes for people who think all muslims are terrorists, they cannot fathom a peaceful muslim so they label them all terrorists.

It is the same thing, happy discriminating ;).[/QUOTE]

Uh...you're quoting my post against someone else's argument. I'm no specialist in debate, but I would think you would have more success using their words to argue against their point. Should I start quoting Uncle Bob in posts, in response to your statements?

Since we've asked you multiple times what those reasons would be, I'll ask one more time, then acknowledge that you don't have a response: What logical reason is there, to be opposed to building the mosque, that doesn't equate 19 criminals as representative of the entire faith. A 1-2 sentence response to that question, may give me wood.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Uh...you're quoting my post against someone else's argument. I'm no specialist in debate, but I would think you would have more success using their words to argue against their point. Should I start quoting Uncle Bob in posts, in response to your statements?

Since we've asked you multiple times what those reasons would be, I'll ask one more time, then acknowledge that you don't have a response: What logical reason is there, to be opposed to building the mosque, that doesn't equate 19 criminals as representative of the entire faith. A 1-2 sentence response to that question, may give me wood.[/QUOTE]

I quoted you arguing with me. What part of that involves a third party?

Unless you are now going to admit that EVERYONE against the mosque is not bigoted or racist? I would like a confirmation from you on that, since you are taking the position that you never made that argument.

I have told you the reasons, you won't accept them. 1. People feel it is insensitive. 2. The guy is building it there because it is near ground zero. 3. It will be a tool for the extremists. Edit: I should clarify that by tool, I mean recruiting, morale, etc not a physical tool.

If you disagree with those reasons, fine, but how is it fair to say "oh thats not a good enough reason, you must just hate muslims"?
 
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[quote name='Knoell']I quoted you arguing with me. What part of that involves a third party?

Unless you are now going to admit that EVERYONE against the mosque is not bigoted or racist? I would like a confirmation from you on that, since you are taking the position that you never made that argument.

I have told you the reasons, you won't accept them. 1. People feel it is insensitive. 2. The guy is building it there because it is near ground zero. 3. It will be a tool for the extremists. Edit: I should clarify that by tool, I mean recruiting, morale, etc not a physical tool.

If you disagree with those reasons, fine, but how is it fair to say "oh thats not a good enough reason, you must just hate muslims"?[/QUOTE]

Just more awful arguements. You're not fooling anyone.
 
[quote name='Knoell']3. It will be a tool for the extremists. Edit: I should clarify that by tool, I mean recruiting, morale, etc not a physical tool.[/QUOTE]

This one is definitely moot. Extremists right now are using the fact that it is NOT being built (probably wont be) and the protests against it as a recruiting tool.

It's clear the extremists will use anything as a recruiting tool, which is why we shouldn't give a shit about them.

If you want Americans to base their behavior on what extremists will/will not do to recruit people...it shows your disdain for what makes America great.
 
Considering the kind of coverage this community center is getting and all the fear it is getting that it'll be used for recruiting, does anyone really think it wouldn't be watched like a hawk? I'm sure there are plenty of far more low profile places extremists can use to recruit.

I see that whole argument as nothing but speculation and fear-mongering. If people are so afraid of this community center being used for recruiting, why are they ok with it being moved to another part of New York City?
 
...and, of course, the converse being true as well - if we don't allow it, that bolsters the cause of Muslim extremists, who can use the opposition to the mosque (and thus the American rejection of Islam as a faith) as a recruiting tool.

...as long as we're letting uninformed speculation guide our planning, let's go fuckin' hogwild, yeah?
 
[quote name='IRHari']This one is definitely moot. Extremists right now are using the fact that it is NOT being built (probably wont be) and the protests against it as a recruiting tool.

It's clear the extremists will use anything as a recruiting tool, which is why we shouldn't give a shit about them.

If you want Americans to base their behavior on what extremists will/will not do to recruit people...it shows your disdain for what makes America great.[/QUOTE]

Why are you still trying to argue with Knoell? I posted this exact argument almost 2 months ago. http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7495511#post7495511

He doesn't care. You can post anything and he'll still parrot off the same bullshit.

This forum would be a better place if everybody just put him on ignore.
 
See here is the thing, we've got to either think Knoell is being a bigot, or a blithering idiot. It's got to be one or the other, he either knows what he's really doing, or he's so dumb he doesn't. Those arguments are so ridiculous that no rational person would even try using them.
 
Neither. Just so deeply convinced of his inherent righteousness, in addition to being so oblivious to his elite white hegemonic upbringing that he doesn't recognize covert racism when he's performing it (see also: people who complain that there's no "White Entertainment Television," no "NAAWP," etc.).

Also, a living, breathing data point that emphasizes how disappointingly accurate this story was: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/
 
[quote name='IRHari']This one is definitely moot. Extremists right now are using the fact that it is NOT being built (probably wont be) and the protests against it as a recruiting tool.

It's clear the extremists will use anything as a recruiting tool, which is why we shouldn't give a shit about them.

If you want Americans to base their behavior on what extremists will/will not do to recruit people...it shows your disdain for what makes America great.[/QUOTE]

Prove it. I can't prove mine until its built.

Anyways, the arguments are the arguements they are using, if you want to say "oh that argument is not rational" and immediatly think "oh well then they must just be bigots right?" then prove that every single person against it is a bigot. You would ask for nothing less if someone said all muslims are terrorists.

Just wow, don't you guys understand that it doesn't matter if the arguments they are using are false or true? If someone believes islamic extremists across the world will use the this mosque as a recruiting center, even if it can be proven untrue, how does that mean they are a bigot? You are saying every single person that is against this mosque is in it for the hatred of all muslims. and that is just plain and simply not true.

It is hilarious that ALL OF YOU haven't understood that yet and are still trying to argue the arguments which have already been argued four thousand times on this thread.

Oh and I am still looking for the proof that I am a bigot as you all so plainly label me. Just one post guys, one post that is unmanipulated by your explanation of it. ONE post. Not one of you have provided one yet, and you all just skimp out on the "you seem like a bigot". You are all fucking jokes.
 
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[quote name='Knoell']It is hilarious that ALL OF YOU haven't understood that yet and are still trying to argue the arguments which have already been argued four thousand times on this thread.[/QUOTE]

I'm a smart dude. I think the reason I don't understand your argument is because it's illogical, gut-feeling-driven emotional nonsense, and it's a shitty argument to boot.
 
[quote name='IRHari']http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/30/taliban-using-mosque-controversy-to-recruit.html

So again, just reiterate for us, what are the reasons to oppose NON GROUND ZERO mosques? Other then pure islamophobia?[/QUOTE]

From what i have listened to the only reasons against the mosques being built are based on negative assumptions. "they are building to recruit", "they are building it to show 9/11 as a victory", "they are building it to mock us" "they are building it so that they are closest to the dairy queen down the street so if they have an event that ends the same time as an event at my church they can get in line before me to get blizzards." ext... The only people that know exactly why they are building it are the ones who are having it built. So if you are not one of those people then you are making an assumption. I prefer to make positive assumptions about people so i will assume they are building it to worship and improve their community....
 
62% of people sampled are against the mosque. Other surveys have the number closer to 52%.

You're hanging your hat on a single survey instead of a litany of them (because it weakens your argument), and you cling to this weak notion of "insensitivity," which, as has been pointed out, is only a plausible notion if you extrapolate Islam as a faith to equal terrorism (ergo, you're a bigot).

You can not separate a religion's worth from the extremists that act on its behalf and still reasonably claim that doing something in the name of that religion is "insensitive." It's straight up dissonant.
 
I'm going to try one last time before I ignore Knoell forever.

[quote name='Knoell']Anyways, the arguments are the arguements they are using, if you want to say "oh that argument is not rational" and immediatly think "oh well then they must just be bigots right?" then prove that every single person against it is a bigot. You would ask for nothing less if someone said all muslims are terrorists.[/QUOTE]

Did you live in New York City/Washington D.C back in 2001? Did you lose any family members in the 9/11 attacks?

The people who did get a pass for having a kneejerk (keyword being kneejerk), negative reaction to this. They are wrong but still hurting so hopefully they will look at the facts and figure out that Muslim doesn't equal terrorist. That their initial reaction was irrational and unfounded.

As far as I know, neither of those things apply to you and you know all of the facts so there is no excuse for your stance.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I'm going to try one last time before I ignore Knoell forever.



Did you live in New York City/Washington D.C back in 2001? Did you lose any family members in the 9/11 attacks?

The people who did get a pass for having a kneejerk (keyword being kneejerk), negative reaction to this. They are wrong but still hurting so hopefully they will look at the facts and figure out that Muslim doesn't equal terrorist. That their initial reaction was irrational and unfounded.

As far as I know, neither of those things apply to you and you know all of the facts so there is no excuse for your stance.[/QUOTE]

Lol Ignore me. I don't care. You guys wanted an explanation of why these people are mad. I gave you reasons, you disagree with those reasons. You then say since you disagree with those reasons they are canceled out, and the only explanation is bigotry.

Heres an example of what you guys are doing.

Guy 1 "It feels like its 40 degrees out here."
Guy 2 "Really it feels more like 60 to me."
Guy 2 "Man that guy must really hate the weather here"
 
[quote name='mykevermin']9 years after the fact, there is no such thing as a kneejerk reaction to 9/11.[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean a kneejerk reaction to 9/11, but to building the mosque. They've heard misinformation and reacted negatively. That is understandable for people who were actually affected by 9/11. Doesn't mean we should listen to them or that they have a leg to stand on.

The facts of the situation are there. There is no logical reason to be against the building of this mosque/community center.
 
In Knoell's defense of his arguments and the use of numbers he has yet to answer the question. I will go along with you that 60% of Americans do not think the mosque should be built. You constantly say that it we are calling these Americans bigots for thinking this way. I will refer to my own last statement, i don't know why these Americans think the way they do... so i would be making an assumption as to why they think that way. The assumption that they are bigots is negative.... so what would be the positive assumption? I think the earlier hypothetical sums up the question well. So Knoell....

[quote name='IRHari']Let's say I live in Quahog, Rhode Island and someone wants to build a Mosque somewhere in town pretty far away from my house. They have all the proper permits and shit, legally they've done everything they're required to.

I don't hate all Muslims. I'm not an Islamophobe. But I don't want the mosque built in Quahog. What possible reasons could I muster for not wanting the mosque built in Quahog?

This question is directed at Knoell, but anyone is free to answer.[/QUOTE]

I have not called anyone bigots, so please do not mention that in your response; I am not arguing with the specifics of your numbers or where you got them, so please do not mention that in your response. Simply answer they hypothetical posted.
 
[quote name='An J0e']In Knoell's defense of his arguments and the use of numbers he has yet to answer the question. I will go along with you that 60% of Americans do not think the mosque should be built. You constantly say that it we are calling these Americans bigots for thinking this way. I will refer to my own last statement, i don't know why these Americans think the way they do... so i would be making an assumption as to why they think that way. The assumption that they are bigots is negative.... so what would be the positive assumption? I think the earlier hypothetical sums up the question well. So Knoell....



I have not called anyone bigots, so please do not mention that in your response; I am not arguing with the specifics of your numbers or where you got them, so please do not mention that in your response. Simply answer they hypothetical posted.[/QUOTE]

? If you take the 9/11 aspect out of it, opposition to it falls away. This can be proven by the few other mosque protests. How many people are against those mosques? The numbers opposing are drastically different.

Again you guys are bunching all these groups together just like the dumbasses who bunch islamic terrorists together with peaceful muslims.

People against the tennessee mosque may be some of the people against the NYC mosque, but the people against the NYC mosque are not all against the tennessee mosque.

Also read the first 25 pages of the thread, you will see what I mean when I say they are insistent about calling the entirety of America a bunch of bigots. They started off with it strong, but have backed off to "just the people against the mosque are bigots" since then.
 
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