Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims

It's going to be like one big 100 million dollar participation trophy. I'm sure the plaque will be misspelled also.

It's the symbolism, man! Why don't we just make it official and name Christianity as our official state religion, tivo? Can you imagine the symbolism there?
 
There are different "secs" of the KKK, some of which are more peaceful and then there are the extreme groups that see those different as rubbish that needs to be exterminated. Lumping all groups of KKK membership together is hardly fair. It'd be about like lumping all "Black Rights" crusaders with the guy in the video shouting about killing all the cracker babies...
 
Are you honestly defending parts of the KKK, Bob?

You must remember the old KKK parades through Mt. Vernon. Shouts of "White Power" didn't really seem like a bunch of good ole boys getting together for barbecue and fellowship.
 
"KKK" and "More peaceful" in the same sentence... ? LMAO!

[quote name='UncleBob']There are different "secs" of the KKK, some of which are more peaceful and then there are the extreme groups that see those different as rubbish that needs to be exterminated.[/QUOTE]

So... Like some KKK members are "slightly" less stupid/brainless than other KKK members.... lol
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']So... Like some KKK members are "slightly" less stupid/brainless than other KKK members.... lol[/QUOTE]

Some people would say the same thing about groups of people who brainlessly follow magic space men. Which God-Fearing religion is smarter than the others?
 
[quote name='SpazX']the KKK is itself a protestant Christian group that uses that Christian identity as part of the reason and purpose for their terrorism[/QUOTE]

Yes, most KKK members are likely God-Fearing individuals. Right, Spaz?
 
The KKK is more split now than it used to be (and obviously has a much smaller membership as a whole), but protestant Christianity has always been an important part of it, just like many other white supremacist groups. God-fearing wouldn't be specific enough, the KKK has historically been against Catholic Christians as well as Jews and other religions.

I imagine calling Al Qaeda members "God-fearing individuals" wouldn't really mean much either.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Did you just compare KKK members to theists?

This keeps getting better. Let me go get some popcorn.[/QUOTE]
*MJ eating popcorn* This is getting good.
 
Why is it that every time we have a moment in which we can show people that we're above pettiness and emotion, that we can think with a clear head, we have a bunch of numbskulls like the folks in that video ruin it?
 
Tivo wrote:
No one will be "flocking" to it. They will be using it as a symbol. Imagine if any other religion built a church, synagogue, temple, etc. in Mecca. Muslims would take it as a huge blow to their religion and cause. Its all about symbolism to these people. I destroyed your point and you should realize this unless you don't know what symbolism is.

-Holy hell, it's spooky how misinformed you are. NYC and Mecca have nothing in common other than the fact that they are cities. Is NYC where Christianity and Judaism were born? Great analogy :drool:

Tivo wrote:
That's because you can't put yourself into the shoes of an Islamic extremist. They live under Shariah law. They have honor killings. They blow up themselves and innocent people. They torture, oppress, and kill. They have very little material to champion their way of life and so they either use fear (like the above) or political exploits. This mosque would fall under the latter.

-Nobody on the planet lives under Shariah (I should say at least no country in the world lives under it. There might be some small tribe somewhere that does live under Shariah I suppose). The rest of your comment is too stupid to waste time trying to educate you.

Tivo wrote:
I would like to hear from Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and the rest about the possibility of moving the mosque to another location. Just to see if any other options existed! Certainly real estate is available in Manhattan but if they came back and said they've looked and showed us that this is the only place to have it then I think a lot of us would be more sympathetic. That's how it works.

-Sure. Why don't you sack up and offer to pay any of the expenses they've already incurred by planning this site, and any costs in analyzing others. I'll bet there are tons of muslim owned pieces of real estate just waiting to be donated to be a mosque site. But don't play games, based on your dazzling previous comments, I've got a feeling anything that has the letters "NY" following it is going to be "too close/too soon".

Now please go back to playing in your mashed potatoes and gravy at the kids table. The adults were having a conversation and didn't invite you.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Tivo wrote:
No one will be "flocking" to it. They will be using it as a symbol. Imagine if any other religion built a church, synagogue, temple, etc. in Mecca. Muslims would take it as a huge blow to their religion and cause. Its all about symbolism to these people. I destroyed your point and you should realize this unless you don't know what symbolism is.

-Holy hell, it's spooky how misinformed you are. NYC and Mecca have nothing in common other than the fact that they are cities. Is NYC where Christianity and Judaism were born? Great analogy :drool:
[/Quote]

NYC is one of the most influential cities in the US and embodies Western values and principles. When I've been overseas in the area (Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon) the people heard English and asked if I was from NY. Nothing about my accent (at all), its just that NY is a symbol of America to these people. Thats what they know. Islamic extremists have been at war with the West for years. They attacked the WTC for, among other things, its symbolism of the West and American success. That was my point. NY is a symbol of America to these people and a mosque that close would be a triumphal symbol of victory to them.

You also wrongly used the word "misinformed." A better word would be "misinterpret" but even that wouldn't work since this is all opinion what NY and the mosque mean symbolically.

[quote name='berzirk']
Tivo wrote:
That's because you can't put yourself into the shoes of an Islamic extremist. They live under Shariah law. They have honor killings. They blow up themselves and innocent people. They torture, oppress, and kill. They have very little material to champion their way of life and so they either use fear (like the above) or political exploits. This mosque would fall under the latter.

-Nobody on the planet lives under Shariah (I should say at least no country in the world lives under it. There might be some small tribe somewhere that does live under Shariah I suppose). The rest of your comment is too stupid to waste time trying to educate you.
[/Quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_with_Sharia_rule.png. You are just plain wrong.

[quote name='berzirk']
Tivo wrote:
I would like to hear from Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and the rest about the possibility of moving the mosque to another location. Just to see if any other options existed! Certainly real estate is available in Manhattan but if they came back and said they've looked and showed us that this is the only place to have it then I think a lot of us would be more sympathetic. That's how it works.

-Sure. Why don't you sack up and offer to pay any of the expenses they've already incurred by planning this site, and any costs in analyzing others. I'll bet there are tons of muslim owned pieces of real estate just waiting to be donated to be a mosque site. But don't play games, based on your dazzling previous comments, I've got a feeling anything that has the letters "NY" following it is going to be "too close/too soon".
[/QUOTE]

Available real estate in the area can be viewed online for free. Also with the amount of publicity, I'm sure there are lists of possible locations they can look into. They can then ask the attorney general, mayor, governor etc. for help (maybe they'd waive the property check fees). Additionally, compared to the cost to build the mosque, those fees are much smaller. I'm sure even the protesters would offer money to have the mosque moved at this point. There are so many options here that I feel that money is the smallest issue. It might even be cheaper to buy and maintain a property farther away from GZ. You probably didn't think of that!


In all, your post is misinformed and shows only the most basic understanding of the issue, the world, finances, and even word use and symbolism.


P.S.
Smut77 and Sporadic: I see what you're saying about race and society but delving further into it should be done in another topic as it is tangential to the current issue. Also, I agree that the majority should not dictate policies and political moves. However, this isn't about making countrywide or statewide laws. This issue is just about the feelings of victims and how it would be nice to accommodate them. Companies (e.g. Adult Swim) expurgate images of Muhammed out of sensitivity to (or fear from) Muslims. That's just being sensitive to them. I think they could do the same for us.
 
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[quote name='tivo']This issue is just about the feelings of victims and how it would be nice to accommodate them.[/QUOTE]

they're dead. the rest of us are just victims by proxy.
 
yeah, seriously. awww, i'm so insensitive, boo.

as for the by proxy claim, if you disagree then you don't understand much about 'terrorism.'
 
Michael Medved? Bill Bennett?

It hasn't been that long since Shirley Sherrod had her career ruined by the conservative propagandist media. What makes you think that I'm suddenly going to believe 'conclusive evidence" from them all of a sudden?

Remember, you did it to yourself.
 
Tivo, I'd be glad to go through each country and explain to you how they openly govern against the sharia in many issues, but that would likely be time wasted because I don't think you care to learn, just to soapbox.

I used minsinformed because I do think that you have watched a couple of news shows about the world, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying you were given bad information. Maybe you misinterpreted good information, but I was trying to give you more credit than you want apparently.

And this business about NYC embodying Western values and principles? Seriously? No, seriously? Rampant crime, history of organized crime, one of the world's biggest porn districts, generations of corrupt politicians, and the Yankees? This is the beacon of hope that the rest of the world should measure itself against? Uh...OK. I think you're misinf...I think you misinterpreted it. Bin Laden or some terrorist said the reason they picked that location was to criple the financial system...which IS rooted in NYC.

So please, again, go have mommy wash the gravy off of your forehead, and just sit down and keep eating at the kid's table.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']Here I was thinking you had a pretty good post going there, and then you had to end it like you did.[/QUOTE]

Funny how conservatives can negate an entire viewpoint based on a slight verbal jab.

It's that Fox news style drive-by commentary. Don't think because 'I want you to get mad!' etc
 
The only thing I said about his post was the end of it killed the whole nice post vibe he had going, not one thing about the rest of the content he said. But whatever, its not like you know/care what my viewpoint on the whole thing is anyways.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']The only thing I said about his post was the end of it killed the whole nice post vibe he had going, not one thing about the rest of the content he said. But whatever, its not like you know/care what my viewpoint on the whole thing is anyways.[/QUOTE]

I'm oblivious, is this in regards to my post? Haa haa. If so, it was a callback to an earlier rebuttal of his where all of us, even those that had disagreeing opinions, were being rather civil and at least making well thought out comments, then Tivo hopped in and I said it was like someone let the kid's table join with the grownups during a holiday meal.
 
Every now and then Paul says something that makes sense. The sad thing is that it had to be said at all.
 
BTW: There are already four mosques within five blocks of the WTC. One is actually older than the WTC itself.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Well, Ron Paul has weighed in. I liked the guy before these comments, I'm ready to have his love child after: http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/r...iots-stop-your-demagogy-about-the-nyc-mosque/[/QUOTE]

lol.
I'd like to take a moment to cross-post my reply to this exact subject from another forum.

I think whatever magic space man the President believes in or where a group of people want to build a building to celebrate their particular magic space man shouldn't even be on the top ten list of top concerns for American citizens right now.
Click to expand...

I swear, Ron Paul is in my head...

(By the way, the first half of that is because of some debate about the President being a secret Muslim...)
 
[quote name='62t']BTW: There are already four mosques within five blocks of the WTC. One is actually older than the WTC itself.[/QUOTE]

Yep, notice none of them answer what an acceptable distance from the WTC would be.

Looking at the mental gymnastics the anti-mosque crowd has to jump through to claim their feelings hurt and then cry when people point out maybe they are just bigots.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I think whatever magic space man the President believes in or where a group of people want to build a building to celebrate their particular magic space man shouldn't even be on the top ten list of top concerns for American citizens right now.[/QUOTE]

I think you're wrong. I don't think those 2 issues should be on any list of concerns.

It doesn't matter what religion the President practices, as long as he doesn't use that as a basis for policy. It doesn't matter where people build religious buildings in America because this is America damnit.
 
Where does all of this lead?

Will the Republicans take over the legislative branch?

Will they try to push through some sort of amendment?

I see people getting excited about this and it just seems to be a waste.

I guess it is easier to get work up about things when you're unemployed.
 
I work for the state, I haven't had a raise in 2 years and this year isn't looking so great either.

But I don't expect to eclipse the master.;)
 
[quote name='Msut77']Yep, notice none of them answer what an acceptable distance from the WTC would be.

Looking at the mental gymnastics the anti-mosque crowd has to jump through to claim their feelings hurt and then cry when people point out maybe they are just bigots.[/QUOTE]

Thats curious, any of those other mosques being built in a building that was destroyed by the events 9/11? You seem to ignore that question alot. Same situations exactly!! :roll: For you it may not matter that it is, but obviously for alot of people it does.

Funny how noone is taking issue with the other mosques, and they weren't protested when they went up. This can't possibly be about 9/11 at all, just about how we all hate muslims. amirite? :roll::roll::roll:
 
Is this religious redlining, then, that we support? Maybe we can bring back residential covenants as well.

Just so you know, you and your side don't even deserve a remotely reasonable discussion on this issue.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Is this religious redlining, then, that we support? Maybe we can bring back residential covenants as well.

Just so you know, you and your side don't even deserve a remotely reasonable discussion on this issue.[/QUOTE]

How about they be sensitive to pick just any building that wasnt destroyed as a result of 9/11, I know, I know the thought of excluding the whole bunch of those buildings comes close to redlining.
 
you've said "destroyed" twice now.

i don't think that word means what you think it does. I once was clipped by a Toyota Echo. It did not destroy me.

not to mention you've changed your argument entirely. is it that the building is too close to ground zero, that the person behind it has 'terrorist' and/or anti-american ties, or that it was 'destroyed' by ground zero? when did you come into the knowledge that the building was 'destroyed' by ground zero? seriously, give me a date. i'd like to know if you're modifying your arguments to suit your emotive conclusions.

your willingness to modify your argument at will when you realize that you have nothing to stand on demonstrates the severe lack of integrity that you have both personally and as representative of your party.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']you've said "destroyed" twice now.

i don't think that word means what you think it does. I once was clipped by a Toyota Echo. It did not destroy me.

not to mention you've changed your argument entirely. is it that the building is too close to ground zero, that the person behind it has 'terrorist' and/or anti-american ties, or that it was 'destroyed' by ground zero? when did you come into the knowledge that the building was 'destroyed' by ground zero? seriously, give me a date. i'd like to know if you're modifying your arguments to suit your emotive conclusions.

your willingness to modify your argument at will when you realize that you have nothing to stand on demonstrates the severe lack of integrity that you have both personally and as representative of your party.[/QUOTE]

lol, I have always known that particular buildings were destroyed by debris from the plane and the WTC. But if you dont believe me, feel free to look back through my posts where I repeatedly say so.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Find the first post in this thread where you mention such a thing.[/QUOTE]

Sigh....

[quote name='Knoell']Although the mosque will not look like that I doubt the 100 million dollar investment will look like the burlington coat factory.

But you know theres already mosques in the area so I don't see why people are getting upset over a 13 story 100 million dollar one that is being rebuilt in a part that was destroyed by the attack. Or that it was or still is going to be named something controversial...eh screw it. You Americans don't have a right to be upset about anything anymore. But freedom of religion FTW. /end sarcasm[/QUOTE]
 
Shouldn't you want the area to be rebuilt though? Ground Zero is still sitting there as a stark reminder of our inability to get past the attacks. Why should an entire neighborhood sit empty just because it's too soon? When do we (as a nation) decide that we're not going to let the families of some of the victims decide what we do with the area?

Did 9/11 give ownership of several blocks of Manhattan to the grieving? Put up a memorial and let's go on with our lives. It's been nearly a decade. They're not coming back and this anti-Muslim backlash isn't going to help.

There's another side to our disgust but you haven't said anything about it, Knoell. If a Christian coalition wanted to build a chapel there, would everyone be just as pissed? You keep saying that this isn't about bigotry and we'll keep bringing up this point. They could've put anything but a mosque there and nobody would care. Residents would praise the added business, foot traffic, etc. The city would hardly pay attention. But it's a mosque. Now, it's too soon to build and we shouldn't let the "terrorists" put up a shrine to their "victory." How do you explain this?
 
I guess I just don't see why this is an issue to anyone. Group owns land, group want to build on land, other people cry about it. It isn't like their crying is going to stop it from being built.
 
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