Poll: Most Americans say Iraq war not worth it

[quote name='Rich']They should be next. But they won't, because Bush is almost as worthless as Clinton.[/QUOTE]

Replace almost with completely and remove as Clinton and I think you've summed it up. Clinton at least managed not to fuck things up.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']You do realize any aid he gave to terrorist groups, such as al qaeda, was just as likely to be used against him than it was anyone else (as they hated his secular government). Now you can argue he aided hamas in some ways, but they are an organization whose military wing uses terrorist tactics to fight a domestic war (more along the lines of the IRA). Saddam was more likely to go after terrorist organizations than aid them (and terrorists had an easier time in kurdish territories, uncontrolled by saddam). [/QUOTE]

Aid is aid. Whether you'll agree or not, Saddam would not thinking twice about aiding any attempt to attack us. He was not a man who deserved to be in power, and i'm glad he's no longer in power.
[quote name='alonzomourning23']
To forcible install favorable governments, great justification (though, it's ironic you'd mention Iran in that, we all know how that turned out).
[/QUOTE]

I find it justifiable. We'll have to agree to disagree. Regardless of what the media tells us, I think we've liberated Iraq, and everything I've heard from soldiers coming back confirms this.
[quote name='alonzomourning23']
Get back to me when you got evidence of wmd's, instead of just blind faith.
[/QUOTE]
I never claimed WMDs. I mean the IRBMs and mobile labs with traces of chemical substances that WERE found.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']

Find me the ones who wanted it through u.s. intervention and at the expense of angering the majority of the world, and giving more recruits to terrorists.
[/QUOTE]

This should have been majority of the world involved. But they, and the UN, wanted to appease the fuck out of Iraq, I'm glad the US didn't repeat that mistake again. Remember in Team America where Kim Jong Il fucks with the UN weapons inspector? I can't imagine it being much different from that in Iraq pre-invasion.

Gamer's Girlfriend said:
So what Bush has done with civil rights, the economy, the budget, the environment, and US lives are better than Clinton? May I ask HOW?
Click to expand...

http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Clinton_Scandals/

Interesting that you would mention civil rights despite Whitewater.



PS--this just in. I suck at arguing my points. I leave big parts of them out because I forget and don't care enough, so if you're like WTF--i don't know. :p
When it comes down to it, I am apathetic towards people on the other side of the world and just want friendly leaders in power.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Replace almost with completely and remove as Clinton and I think you've summed it up. Clinton at least managed not to fuck things up.[/QUOTE]

Clinton was the worst piece of shit excuse for a president this country has ever had.

The fact that a man involved in a huge cocaine distribution ring via money allocated from him as governor made it to president speaks volumes both about this country and the man. I don't want to even know how the fuck he made it to the presidency.
 
[quote name='Rich']Aid is aid. Whether you'll agree or not, Saddam would not thinking twice about aiding any attempt to attack us. He was not a man who deserved to be in power, and i'm glad he's no longer in power.[/quote]

Funny how he did not aid the terrorist groups who want to attack us, such as al qaeda (and hamas is not one of them who has attacking us as a goal).


I find it justifiable. We'll have to agree to disagree. Regardless of what the media tells us, I think we've liberated Iraq, and everything I've heard from soldiers coming back confirms this.
Click to expand...

I've heard good things, bad things, and scary things from soldiers. Remember talking to a soldier who was upset he didn't get to kill an iraqi, and his friend saying if he ever saw an iraqi's skull he'd just laugh. But asking the soldiers is similar to asking the police about conditions in a ghetto, they can provide some details, but the residents of said place would be better.

I never claimed WMDs. I mean the IRBMs and mobile labs with traces of chemical substances that WERE found.
Click to expand...

Traces that we not shown to be recent.



This should have been majority of the world involved. But they, and the UN, wanted to appease the fuck out of Iraq, I'm glad the US didn't repeat that mistake again. Remember in Team America where Kim Jong Il fucks with the UN weapons inspector? I can't imagine it being much different from that in Iraq pre-invasion.
Click to expand...

Never saw that movie. But this is basically complaining about how the world disagrees with you. Also, in Iraq, the overwhelming amount of evidence suggests inspections and sanctions worked.


Also, as to just wanting friendly leader in power, you don't have to live with those leaders. You don't have to deal with the cost of installing those leaders. And when a government with your line of reasoning gains power, no other nations should care about aiding, or assisting in any way, that government, as it will only harm them in the end.

Clinton was the worst piece of shit excuse for a president this country has ever had.

The fact that a man involved in a huge cocaine distribution ring via money allocated from him as governor made it to president speaks volumes both about this country and the man. I don't want to even know how the fuck he made it to the presidency.
Click to expand...

Wait, clinton was involved in a huge cocaine ring? When was that allegation proved? And worst president ever? Seriously, you just went off the deep end with this, now entering scrubking and quackzilla territory.
 
[quote name='Rich']PS--this just in. I suck at arguing my points. I leave big parts of them out because I forget and don't care enough, so if you're like WTF--i don't know. :p
When it comes down to it, I am apathetic towards people on the other side of the world and just want friendly leaders in power.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think I asked you to clarify?

You say friends but you mean puppets.

Another red-stater comes clean.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']
I've heard good things, bad things, and scary things from soldiers. Remember talking to a soldier who was upset he didn't get to kill an iraqi, and his friend saying if he ever saw an iraqi's skull he'd just laugh. But asking the soldiers is similar to asking the police about conditions in a ghetto, they can provide some details, but the residents of said place would be better.

Never saw that movie. But this is basically complaining about how the world disagrees with you. Also, in Iraq, the overwhelming amount of evidence suggests inspections and sanctions worked.


Also, as to just wanting friendly leader in power, you don't have to live with those leaders. You don't have to deal with the cost of installing those leaders. And when a government with your line of reasoning gains power, no other nations should care about aiding, or assisting in any way, that government, as it will only harm them in the end.[/QUOTE]

You can't deny Saddam had the worst human rights record in the history of the world, though. I doubt many Iraqis are really upset about him being gone. Upset about US troops being present, maybe, but not him being gone.

Also, as I said somewhere recently, my brother is currently in Guantanmo and off to Iraq soon--all of the returning soldiers in the Seabees have said nothing negative. And then there are the success stories like the schools and the woman's softball story I posted in the other thread.

And go watch Team America. GREAT movie.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']
Wait, clinton was involved in a huge cocaine ring? When was that allegation proved? And worst president ever? Seriously, you just went off the deep end with this, now entering scrubking and quackzilla territory.[/QUOTE]

I actually know someone that went to my HS that had to be hidden for 3 weeks after receiving death threats for writing a story regarding the Mena case.


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/CIAREPORT/contents.html

( http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/mena.html )
 
[quote name='camoor']Why do you think I asked you to clarify?

You say friends but you mean puppets.

Another red-stater comes clean.[/QUOTE]

Uhh...New York...represent? :whistle2:$:lol:
 
by civil rights I mean the ability to be an individual and have rights beyond just breathing. But it is interesting that it's the only topic you can find any arguement with.
Clinton did more for the American Society as a whole.

lol...I think this is totally not worth the time of day to argue, now that I think about it, because I could NEVER understand how Bush could be doing more good than harm to this country.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']I'm pretty sure it wasn't his fathers pocketbook.[/QUOTE]

Was that supposed to be a Bush joke? Because I was referring to Clinton.
 
[quote name='Rich']Was that supposed to be a Bush joke? Because I was referring to Clinton.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't exactly call it a joke.:D

Clinton did a whole lot of nothing for 8 years and the people were happy, Bush has done a whole lot of things and the people are not happy.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']I wouldn't exactly call it a joke.:D

Clinton did a whole lot of nothing for 8 years and the people were happy, Bush has done a whole lot of things and the people are not happy.[/QUOTE]

Aside from laundering money, doing coke, and fucking various women. Oh, and covering shit up and allowing people to be murdered. But yeah, he did a whole lot of nothing for 8 years. :)
 
[quote name='Rich']Aside from laundering money, doing coke, and fucking various women. Oh, and covering shit up and allowing people to be murdered. But yeah, he did a whole lot of nothing for 8 years. :)[/QUOTE]

Yeah Bush really is one sick twisted bastard, sadly his 8 years aren't over yet.
 
[quote name='Rich']If our military was capable of ousting every dictator in the world, I would support it every step of the way.[/QUOTE]

and how would this not be a dictorial move?

Humour me for a minute, Rich.

I say this in all honesty. Let's put aside whatever differences we have. If you're a christian and i'm a muslim, let's put it aside.

let's also put aside our concepts of what is right and wrong. you think terrorism is wrong, i think our government is wrong, but let's ignore that, just for a second.

tell me how you feel about a country where 1 out of every 3 black men have been convicted of a felony?

tell me how you feel about a country that has more people in prison, per capita than any democracy in the world?

tell me how you feel about a country who feels that democracy doesn't involve responsibility to the community (public education, welfare, social security) and that the indvidual must continually be protected from the state?

tell me how you feel about a state (Kanasas) that voted Bush in 2000, only to see an overwhelming "super" (;)) majority of their residents lose jobs to outsourcing and big business procedure backed and supported by the bush administration.

tell me how you feel about a democracy that puts moral values (abortion, gay rights) over actual political policy and law (drilling in alaska, tax cuts for the rich) ?

I know you've heard these arguments before (at least i hope you have), but put aside what you feel is right and wrong for a second and consider the implications of these questions.

what sort of democracy are we living in?

keep in mind that .08% of the people living here have more money than 80% of the people here. Also that there are roughly 2 million homeless people, and that by the year 2006, a young adult male has a 1/10 chance of going to jail for a felony.

If a terrorist flew a plane into a building because he thought it was right (and truly they felt god was on their side) would that justify it?

If an army invaded another country because they thought it was right (and truly we have said that God and the goodwill of men is on our side) would that justify it?

I think we have a good chance to do a lot of good in Iraq, and i support the effort to establish democracy there.

But i wish that we (that's you and me) would stop and reflect on our position, our values, and those of others who disagree.

Is the solution force or discussion and empathy?
 
when we do something as atrocious as commit genocide on a certain type of our population (Kurds) Let me know and I will feel a tad bit bad about invading Iraq.
 
or how bout importing people from their homeland and making them work for nothing?

or droppin a big ole' bomb on a metropolitan city, killin' roughly 90,000 people in an instant?

whoopsies!
 
tell me how you feel about a country where 1 out of every 3 black men have been convicted of a felony?

They should stop robbing out liquor stores! :)lol: JK! Don't come after me with PI)


tell me how you feel about a country that has more people in prison, per capita than any democracy in the world?

We have more scumbags than everywhere else, you won't get an argument out of me.


tell me how you feel about a country who feels that democracy doesn't involve responsibility to the community (public education, welfare, social security) and that the indvidual must continually be protected from the state?

I've been privately educated and will have no need for welfare or social security in my life, so I can't answer this question without being biased.

tell me how you feel about a state (Kanasas) that voted Bush in 2000, only to see an overwhelming "super" (;)) majority of their residents lose jobs to outsourcing and big business procedure backed and supported by the bush administration.

I don't like the Bush administration, I've said this already.

tell me how you feel about a democracy that puts moral values (abortion, gay rights) over actual political policy and law (drilling in alaska, tax cuts for the rich) ?

I support drilling in Alaska and tax cuts for the rich and don't want to see abortion after the first half of the first trimester or gay marriages.

what sort of democracy are we living in?

A shitty one. I have no love for my country or my president, but I still support the war in Iraq and I still think we're better off than any country living under a dictatorship.

keep in mind that .08% of the people living here have more money than 80% of the people here. Also that there are roughly 2 million homeless people, and that by the year 2006, a young adult male has a 1/10 chance of going to jail for a felony.
I'm probably near that .08% thanks to old money, so again, no unbiased answers will come from me.

If a terrorist flew a plane into a building because he thought it was right (and truly they felt god was on their side) would that justify it?

Intentional targetting of innocent civilians vs:

If an army invaded another country because they thought it was right (and truly we have said that God and the goodwill of men is on our side) would that justify it?

Unintentional casualties of war.

I think we have a good chance to do a lot of good in Iraq, and i support the effort to establish democracy there.

me too. :)

But i wish that we (that's you and me) would stop and reflect on our position, our values, and those of others who disagree.

Is the solution force or discussion and empathy?

Unfortunately, I think it's force with many of the countries in this world.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']or how bout importing people from their homeland and making them work for nothing?

or droppin a big ole' bomb on a metropolitan city, killin' roughly 90,000 people in an instant?

whoopsies![/QUOTE]

As opposed to killing them as they engage in guerilla warfare, much like the women and chlidren we killed as we island hopped and closed in on Japan because they kept attacking our troops? An invasion of Japan would have been the most devasting thing in the history of mankind, worse the bombs, me thinks.
 
-I think we did a good thing in removing Saddam.

-We're doing a horrible job of setting the country up for post-Saddam.

-We were lied to about why we went into Iraq.

-We had plenty to do HERE before worrying about anywhere else. Our priorities were/are way out of whack.

-I do not support the war in Iraq, and I don't think ousting Saddam was 'worth it'. Good thing = yes. Worth it / right time = no.
 
[quote name='Rich']You can't deny Saddam had the worst human rights record in the history of the world, though. I doubt many Iraqis are really upset about him being gone. Upset about US troops being present, maybe, but not him being gone.

Also, as I said somewhere recently, my brother is currently in Guantanmo and off to Iraq soon--all of the returning soldiers in the Seabees have said nothing negative. And then there are the success stories like the schools and the woman's softball story I posted in the other thread.

And go watch Team America. GREAT movie.[/QUOTE]

Well, it seems the residents of Iraq (whose opinions about Iraq are far more important than u.s. soldiers) don't exactly seem upset saddams gone, but don't exactly seem to happy or positive about the current situation either (ya know, water, electricity, crime, kidnappings, etc.).

But anyone with even a tiny bit of knowledge of history knows saddam does not have the worst human rights record. Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, former hutu rulers of rwanda (worst genocide for the amount of time it took to happen), menghitsu (ethiopia), kim jong il, chairman mao, rulers of turkey during WW1 (armenian genocide) are all worse. Also Idi Amin, Milosevic, papa doc, and the guy from turkmenistan (whatever his name is) are in the same league. Then there are also the likes of Diem, Franco, Khomeini, and pinochet, though those are a step below. Those are just recent ones off the top of my head.

Also, on clinton, assuming you're a bush supporter it takes a lot of nerve to blast anyone on the issue of coke. And besides, you seem to believe every possible clinton conspiracy theory there is, I consider the ones with all the bush conspiracy theories to be nutjobs, don't see why my opinion should differ here.


Also, about hiroshima and nagasaki, japan was on the path to surrendering before any were dropped, and likely an invasion would have been unnecessary. Japan would have surrendered without a second bomb, but we didn't want russia to land on any part of mainland japan, which is why we were so quick with the second.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']
Also, on clinton, assuming you're a bush supporter it takes a lot of nerve to blast anyone on the issue of coke. And besides, you seem to believe every possible clinton conspiracy theory there is, I consider the ones with all the bush conspiracy theories to be nutjobs, don't see why my opinion should differ here.[/QUOTE]

I've already said, I hate Bush. Clinton was that much worse, though. I can't imagine what Kerry would have been.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Well, it seems the residents of Iraq (whose opinions about Iraq are far more important than u.s. soldiers) don't exactly seem upset saddams gone, but don't exactly seem to happy or positive about the current situation either (ya know, water, electricity, crime, kidnappings, etc.).
[/QUOTE]

Yeah because those soldiers who have been to Iraq might know a little more about this situation on the ground (including personally knowing Iraqis) there that say someone on a videogame website who hates George Bush and doesn't have the first clue about what's going on in Iraq.

Ya know.

CTL
 
[quote name='Rich']

tell me how you feel about a country who feels that democracy doesn't involve responsibility to the community (public education, welfare, social security) and that the indvidual must continually be protected from the state?

I've been privately educated and will have no need for welfare or social security in my life, so I can't answer this question without being biased.

tell me how you feel about a democracy that puts moral values (abortion, gay rights) over actual political policy and law (drilling in alaska, tax cuts for the rich) ?

I support drilling in Alaska and tax cuts for the rich and don't want to see abortion after the first half of the first trimester or gay marriages.

what sort of democracy are we living in?

A shitty one. I have no love for my country or my president, but I still support the war in Iraq and I still think we're better off than any country living under a dictatorship.

keep in mind that .08% of the people living here have more money than 80% of the people here. Also that there are roughly 2 million homeless people, and that by the year 2006, a young adult male has a 1/10 chance of going to jail for a felony.
I'm probably near that .08% thanks to old money, so again, no unbiased answers will come from me.
If an army invaded another country because they thought it was right (and truly we have said that God and the goodwill of men is on our side) would that justify it?

Unintentional casualties of war.
[/QUOTE]

It is interesting that you are so concerned for others in another country, but at the mention of problems in our own, you dismiss them as answers you can't say without bias.

i think it is noble that you answer them honestly, but maybe assessing your bias would be interesting and fruitful.

And if these biases are profound enough to keep you from sharing your opinion about welfare, social security etc., to what degree do you have legitimate say in who is an "unintentional casualty of war" ?

I am not saying you're wrong, but the argument and stance you take seems to be immediately conflicting on several levels.

you say social security, welfare, abortion etc. don't effect you (to a certain extent) so what does this say about your care for others in our society (putting abortion aside, with all of its moral qualms) ?

i don't know, but perhaps it's worth a look, because it sure would help me understand why you're so compassionate about Iraqis, especially since you haven't mentioned Sudan, Rwanda, China, Russia, and most all of Latin America.

again, this is not an attack, but certainly makes me very curious.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Yeah because those soldiers who have been to Iraq might know a little more about this situation on the ground (including personally knowing Iraqis) there that say someone on a videogame website who hates George Bush and doesn't have the first clue about what's going on in Iraq.

Ya know.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Vietnam ring a bell?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Yeah because those soldiers who have been to Iraq might know a little more about this situation on the ground (including personally knowing Iraqis) there that say someone on a videogame website who hates George Bush and doesn't have the first clue about what's going on in Iraq.

Ya know.

CTL[/QUOTE]

So, since you don't seem to like what I said, you think that u.s. soldiers know more about what day to day civilian life in Iraq is like than actual iraqi civilians? I'd like you to explain your reasoning behind that one. I really wish I could expect a rational, calm response from you, but when I see your posts (as well as your "the homeless exist for my amusement sig) I realize you're a jerk and will respond as such.
 
[quote name='Rich']Uhh...New York...represent? :whistle2:$:lol:[/QUOTE]

Did you vote for Bush or not? I'm sick of this "I voted for Bush but I'm hiding behind my blue state status". Own up to the voting choices you made!
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']tell me how you feel about a country where 1 out of every 3 black men have been convicted of a felony? [/QUOTE]

That 95% of them were guilty.
 
[quote name='atreyue']That 95% of them were guilty.[/QUOTE]

I know of statistics to dispute that, but I'm too lazy.

Why did I respond, you ask?

It was in the hopes that someone else will do it! (And that's the american way).
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']I know of statistics to dispute that, but I'm too lazy.

Why did I respond, you ask?

It was in the hopes that someone else will do it! (And that's the american way).[/QUOTE]

I plucked the % out of the air. The point I was too lazy to make is that American Black culture is very deeply immersed in Sports, Ass, Crime, and Weed. At least half of those things are illegal all the time on their own. When you factor in all the different flavor combinations, you hardly need racism (which is very very overhyped) to help out.
 
[quote name='atreyue']I plucked the % out of the air. The point I was too lazy to make is that American Black culture is very deeply immersed in Sports, Ass, Crime, and Weed. At least half of those things are illegal all the time on their own. When you factor in all the different flavor combinations, you hardly need racism (which is very very overhyped) to help out.[/QUOTE]

Don't let poor school systems, high prison population (meaning more single mothers and no one to watch the kids), dangerous neighborhoods, racism (Get someone black or dark skinned and try walking around with them. When I go to a mall with someone like that, they get watched in every store we enter, constantly asked if they need help to check on them, but often ignored when they actually look for help, are more likely to be accused of stealing, and more likely to be treated rudely than I am, and that's just shopping, not dealing with cops or employers yet) and a culture of hopelessness that inner cities and poverty often bring. You see a white kid walking down the street in a t-shirt and jeans and a baseball hat, or a black kid walking down the street with a t-shirt and jeans and a du rag, who's gonna get the attention?

Though statistics I was referring to where white and black arrest vs conviction rates (for example, drugs), whites convicted of first degree murder vs blacks (and the amount of death sentences) etc. In toronto a few weeks ago (ya ya, not u.s., but the principle is the same, and that area is less racist than the vast majority of the u.s. and much safer) a press release made headline news, it was cops admitting that racial profiling does occur (ie. pulling over black people in expensive cars in white neighborhoods), white officers using caught using derogatory terms for black suspects (ie. black person on a bike being called "monkey on bike" or "mob"), and black cops complaining that when off duty, plain clothed but using the police car, white officers often insist on seeing their badge or be arrested, while white off duty officers weren't subject to the same.)
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Don't let poor school systems, high prison population (meaning more single mothers and no one to watch the kids), dangerous neighborhoods, racism (Get someone black or dark skinned and try walking around with them. When I go to a mall with someone like that, they get watched in every store we enter, constantly asked if they need help to check on them, but often ignored when they actually look for help, are more likely to be accused of stealing, and more likely to be treated rudely than I am, and that's just shopping, not dealing with cops or employers yet) and a culture of hopelessness that inner cities and poverty often bring. You see a white kid walking down the street in a t-shirt and jeans and a baseball hat, or a black kid walking down the street with a t-shirt and jeans and a du rag, who's gonna get the attention?[/QUOTE]

Actually, I am a dark skinned black person. And I've been the victim of racial profiling. But I never was arrested (much less went to prison) because I never did anything illegal. And I have no respect for people that choose a "culture of hopelessness" for themselves. And for the vast majority, single mother or no, they ARE choosing their lifestyle. I lived in the projects in the Bronx, NY from 8 until I went to college. You'd be amazed at how much things like welfare and unemployment are being abused.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Though statistics I was referring to where white and black arrest vs conviction rates (for example, drugs), whites convicted of first degree murder vs blacks (and the amount of death sentences) etc. In toronto a few weeks ago (ya ya, not u.s., but the principle is the same, and that area is less racist than the vast majority of the u.s. and much safer) a press release made headline news, it was cops admitting that racial profiling does occur (ie. pulling over black people in expensive cars in white neighborhoods), white officers using caught using derogatory terms for black suspects (ie. black person on a bike being called "monkey on bike" or "mob"), and black cops complaining that when off duty, plain clothed but using the police car, white officers often insist on seeing their badge or be arrested, while white off duty officers weren't subject to the same.)[/QUOTE]

MOB, huh? I'll have to remember that. I just bought I bike, so now I need the t-shirt.
 
[quote name='atreyue']That 95% of them were guilty.[/QUOTE]

so are you condemning them or the situation that causes them to be guilty?

surely you're not saying that it is inherent to them as human beings.

what are you suggesting then?

if 1 out of 3 blacks are convicted of felony, does that mean that 1 out of 3 blacks born are bad people bound to commit felonies?

i can tell you for sure that 1 out of 3 of all the other races combined are not convicted of felonies.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']so are you condemning them or the situation that causes them to be guilty?

surely you're not saying that it is inherent to them as human beings.

what are you suggesting then?

if 1 out of 3 blacks are convicted of felony, does that mean that 1 out of 3 blacks born are bad people bound to commit felonies?

i can tell you for sure that 1 out of 3 of all the other races combined are not convicted of felonies.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying exaclty what I said above. That American Black culture glorifies crime and drugs. What other culture's 'in' words are 'ghetto' and 'ignorant'. Modern Black culture has embraced its weaknesses (like traditional poverty) and uses them as crutches to promote selfishness and laziness.

As a Black person, I know that the chances of me going to jail are as good as the chances of me commiting a crime. Period. Despite how often the racism card is played (whenever it suits us), we all know it's relatively dead. Most of the sterotypes that exist now are there for a reason, in fact they are often perpetuated by Black people themselves (again, whenever it suits us). You say it's not inherent to them as human beings, yet you talk about these 'situations' that amount to the same thing. Yet none of these excuses (for thats what they are) are made for any other ethnic groups in America (excepting possibly latinos). Maybe if the public raised the expectations for Blacks and got rid of affirmative action for starters, Black community would be unable to continue with this sham.
 
[quote name='camoor']Did you vote for Bush or not? I'm sick of this "I voted for Bush but I'm hiding behind my blue state status". Own up to the voting choices you made![/QUOTE]

I didn't waste my time. Voting in NY with the electoral college is about is worthy as sitting on my ass and watching tv. The electoral college is bullshit and needs to go.

And hiding behind my blue state status? I think Kerry would have been the single worst thing to ever happen to this country. Worse than British Stamp Acts, worse than Pearl Harbor, worse than 9/11, worse than Bill Clinton. Bush was the only viable option, for me. This country really needs to adopt a 3rd party and move away from the bilateral party lines. When your choices are George Bush and John Kerry, a 3rd party member is really necessary. I just hope McCain runs for, and wins, the precidency in '08.


It is interesting that you are so concerned for others in another country, but at the mention of problems in our own, you dismiss them as answers you can't say without bias.

i think it is noble that you answer them honestly, but maybe assessing your bias would be interesting and fruitful.

And if these biases are profound enough to keep you from sharing your opinion about welfare, social security etc., to what degree do you have legitimate say in who is an "unintentional casualty of war" ?

I am not saying you're wrong, but the argument and stance you take seems to be immediately conflicting on several levels.

you say social security, welfare, abortion etc. don't effect you (to a certain extent) so what does this say about your care for others in our society (putting abortion aside, with all of its moral qualms) ?

i don't know, but perhaps it's worth a look, because it sure would help me understand why you're so compassionate about Iraqis, especially since you haven't mentioned Sudan, Rwanda, China, Russia, and most all of Latin America.

again, this is not an attack, but certainly makes me very curious.
Click to expand...

I hate Americans. I hate them immensely. 95% of them don't deserve to live.
And compassionate about Iraqis? I'm really apathetic towards them, but at the same time, I think everyone deserves to live in a country where they don't have to worry about the government routinely torturing them and imposising ridiculous rules on them. I would make the same case for people in Sudan, Rwanda, China, Russia, and SA, but alas, that's not the topic at hand--Iraq is. When the time comes, I'll have the same stance if the US decided to intervene in these crises, as opposed to just giving aid that will just be used by rebel and military forces in said countries, anyway. I think it's a shame that the UN, France, Germany, etc. wanted nothing but revised sanctions in Iraq while Saddam was routinely making peoples' lives miserable when all they deserve is to live in a free environment.

Regarding the domestic issues: I think social security should be privatized. It's not that difficult to save money for when you will need it, and if you're working a job where you're living paycheck to paycheck, maybe you should have done something better with your life. Welfare is a product of the person. Anyone is capable of avoiding welfare, most just don't care and would rather live in a ghetto and get free handouts than work towards any goal. I truly believe any person with the right mindset is capable of attaining an education and, consequently, career that will pay enough to at least allow someone to live comfortable until their death.

Regarding abortion: Like I said, I am ok with abortion by the first 40 days or so, but when the EKG can be recorded and we are still killing babies, there's a problem.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']So, since you don't seem to like what I said, you think that u.s. soldiers know more about what day to day civilian life in Iraq is like than actual iraqi civilians? I'd like you to explain your reasoning behind that one. I really wish I could expect a rational, calm response from you, but when I see your posts (as well as your "the homeless exist for my amusement sig) I realize you're a jerk and will respond as such.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh I think they would know more because they are there Duh. Nobody over here can get a 100% correct picture about whats going on because the media spins the story to fit their agenda. What insider info do you have that makes you more informed than someone who is living the situation right now. He doesn't need reasoning behind it it is just common sense
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']So, since you don't seem to like what I said, you think that u.s. soldiers know more about what day to day civilian life in Iraq is like than actual iraqi civilians? I'd like you to explain your reasoning behind that one. I really wish I could expect a rational, calm response from you, but when I see your posts (as well as your "the homeless exist for my amusement sig) I realize you're a jerk and will respond as such.[/QUOTE]

Maybe because I had a chance to interact with Iraqis on a daily basis?

Again enjoy pontificating on a videogame website - you know so much more about Iraq than those of us who have been there.

Yeah I am a jerk. Keep up the ad hominen attacks.

CTL
 
[quote name='atreyue']I'm saying exaclty what I said above. That American Black culture glorifies crime and drugs. What other culture's 'in' words are 'ghetto' and 'ignorant'. Modern Black culture has embraced its weaknesses (like traditional poverty) and uses them as crutches to promote selfishness and laziness.

As a Black person, I know that the chances of me going to jail are as good as the chances of me commiting a crime. Period. Despite how often the racism card is played (whenever it suits us), we all know it's relatively dead. Most of the sterotypes that exist now are there for a reason, in fact they are often perpetuated by Black people themselves (again, whenever it suits us). You say it's not inherent to them as human beings, yet you talk about these 'situations' that amount to the same thing. Yet none of these excuses (for thats what they are) are made for any other ethnic groups in America (excepting possibly latinos). Maybe if the public raised the expectations for Blacks and got rid of affirmative action for starters, Black community would be unable to continue with this sham.[/QUOTE]

that's interesting.

so you see the black community as one force, perpetuating the idea of glorified blaxploitation, but how do you account for all the corporate encouragment? And what is it that perpetuates the ideas of "gangs" "Bling" etc?

If it is the black community that perpetuates it, how do they stop perpetuating it? I think you would agree that the peer pressure and poor education contribute at least somewhat to the shape of black america's thoughts. I never grew up believing that violence, gangs and drugs were cool, but that is partly because of where i grew up.

it is also interesting that you seperate the black community from the public, which public are you speaking of?
 
[quote name='Rich']
I hate Americans. I hate them immensely. 95% of them don't deserve to live.
And compassionate about Iraqis? I'm really apathetic towards them, but at the same time, I think everyone deserves to live in a country where they don't have to worry about the government routinely torturing them and imposising ridiculous rules on them. I would make the same case for people in Sudan, Rwanda, China, Russia, and SA, but alas, that's not the topic at hand--Iraq is. When the time comes, I'll have the same stance if the US decided to intervene in these crises, as opposed to just giving aid that will just be used by rebel and military forces in said countries, anyway. I think it's a shame that the UN, France, Germany, etc. wanted nothing but revised sanctions in Iraq while Saddam was routinely making peoples' lives miserable when all they deserve is to live in a free environment.
[/quote]

I see your logic, but i still don't understand your depiction of democracy. You speak of it as if it were a well defined political structure, and yet you say you "hate america" and also that you hate the "bipartisan system" (we are in agreence there ;)) so what democracy do you hope to establish there?

And how is it that a foreign influence can establish democracy, if democracy is a government for the people by the people, of the people?

Regarding the domestic issues: I think social security should be privatized. It's not that difficult to save money for when you will need it, and if you're working a job where you're living paycheck to paycheck, maybe you should have done something better with your life. Welfare is a product of the person. Anyone is capable of avoiding welfare, most just don't care and would rather live in a ghetto and get free handouts than work towards any goal. I truly believe any person with the right mindset is capable of attaining an education and, consequently, career that will pay enough to at least allow someone to live comfortable until their death.
Click to expand...

two interesting points here:
first, you said yourself you came into a large sum of money, so I think perhaps it would be difficult to fathom the truly impoverished state (35.9 million to date).

secondly, (and perhaps i have misread you) but this implies that jobs that are not sufficient in their pay should only be temporary. As in, the guy that works at the gas station should look up towards another job, one that pays better.

this seems simple enough, but at closer look, there isn't enough teenagers and college students to fill those jobs, and there aren't enough jobs in general (6% of the population is totally unemployed, with 30% without "living wages").

Also, if it is the hopes that we should be upwardly mobile (hurrah, Horatio Alger!) what do we say of all the mexicans that work on the farms in California? Their labor dramatically reduces the price of crops and food in America. Same thing with low wage labor all over America.

In regards to education, having come from one of the poorest schools on the west coast, I agree that if there's a will, there's a way. But this is too idealistic. It also assumes that one cannot foster a will. I have met many young paper without any will to do anything, but through really well executed social service programs, they have found an interest in engineering, nursing etc.

Surely we do not all have the same chances when we are born, what makes one deserve so much, and another so little? Truly?

I cannot say that I deserve the house that I lived in when i was child, any more than the poor urban black kid can say he deserves a destitute hovel. Unless I think that I am given my status in life by divine intervention, which i do not.

You seem to reflect this sentiment by saying "I truly believe any person with the right mindset is capable of attaining an education and, consequently, career that will pay enough to at least allow someone to live comfortable until their death."

But what is comfort? What is a livable wage? And who decides?
It is ironic that conservatives (and i'm not saying you) make a similair statment, when they wouldn't dream of a comfortable life without a second house near Pebble Beach. Comfort? Livable wage? these things are all totally relative. They are not up to you or I to decide what they are, or how people can get there. The important thing is that everyone has an equal chance to have them, regardless of what they are born into (otherwise we're just an aristocracy, right?).

I do not see this in America. I see it more so here than in Iraq for sure, But Canada, France, Britain, even Germany hold much truer to this Democratic ideal.

I say all this only to ask you this question:

Given the current state of how the wealth is balanced, and how much power is in the hands of a minority, do you believe that America is a good democracy, or even a democracy at all?

And if not, what right do we have to invade other countries, doing what we (the mediocre democracy, at best) think will be beneficial to them?

This is important because instead of leading by example, we are leading with a sense of right. How would it be different if North Korea invaded Japan or South Korea, claiming that they were liberating those countries from captialistic woes?

Instead of saying "oh, because they're wrong." consider the philisophical standpoint. how is it any different? And what danger does that mentality reflect?

Did not the Soviets "contain" capitalistic and democratic ideals with force in the cold war?
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']that's interesting.

so you see the black community as one force, perpetuating the idea of glorified blaxploitation, but how do you account for all the corporate encouragment? And what is it that perpetuates the ideas of "gangs" "Bling" etc?

If it is the black community that perpetuates it, how do they stop perpetuating it? I think you would agree that the peer pressure and poor education contribute at least somewhat to the shape of black america's thoughts. I never grew up believing that violence, gangs and drugs were cool, but that is partly because of where i grew up.

it is also interesting that you seperate the black community from the public, which public are you speaking of?[/QUOTE]

The public I am referring to is the non-black public.

Where was all of the 'corporate encouragement' for ganster rap before it became fashionable to the public? Look at what 2 live crew went through when they came out versus similar rappers now. The corporations are simply attempting to cash in on something that already exists and is obviously popular with the public. Do you think that the idea that gangs and 'bling' are cool is something perpetuated by 'Whitey'? Gold teeth and Crips were in well before they started appearing on MTV.

Peer pressure and poor education are not contributors to the shape of black america's thoughts, but rather results. The black community will continue to perpetuate this idea as long as the (non-black) public continues to buy into it and allow blacks to use it as an excuse for their actions or lack thereof.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Damn, you are a bigger racist than PAD.[/QUOTE]

Yup. I'm a black person who is racist against black people. That's me.
 
[quote name='atreyue']Yup. I'm a black person who is racist against black people. That's me.[/QUOTE]

Get back to filming your TV show. We are not amused by you leaving the set.
 
[quote name='atreyue']Yup. I'm a black person who is racist against black people. That's me.[/QUOTE]

My theory is that you are just saying you are black thinking that justifies your racist comments.
 
[quote name='atreyue']Yup. I'm a black person who is racist against black people. That's me.[/QUOTE]

Well, I can show you members of my family who have worked hard but have nothing. Hell, my own family almost lost its house last year, and still is risking it, much of the reason is due to a failed family store that sucked up most of our money (and both parents worked in addition to that store).

Also, your line of thinking is extremely convenient since it ensures that you will never have to think of the possibility that you'd end up like them, since everything is their own doing.

You also seem to completely ignore the reasoning behind such decisions among many poor people. I remember a study done on 1st grade students, they randomly split the students into two groups for the year, one treated as the bad group one as the good group. By the end of the year, their actions, grades and behavior reflected those differences, even though at the beginning of the year they were indistinguishable. The conditions you are raised in, the family you are raised in (or lack thereof) and the neighborhood you're raised in all have influences on you. And practically everyone acknowledges this, wealthy parents want to give kids all the advantages of life, such as top of the line education. Most people seem to agree you can give a child advantages, but many people refuse to apply the same line of reasoning in explaining why people can be hindered by their situation. But also, for me to maintain a middle class lifestyle is much easier than for a person raised in a family that can barely survive paycheck to paycheck to achieve a middle class lifestyle.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']My theory is that you are just saying you are black thinking that justifies your racist comments.[/QUOTE]

I think people often feel that, due to their membership to a particular group, they can speak for that whole group when talking to people who are not in that group, not so much referring to atryu here, but this often occurs even when the person has little relation to the group they're discussing (ie. a born wealthy black person speaking for black people who live in ghettos). Then again, this is also just a convenient way to dismiss those who disagree, gotta walk a fine line here.

Maybe because I had a chance to interact with Iraqis on a daily basis?

Again enjoy pontificating on a videogame website - you know so much more about Iraq than those of us who have been there.

Yeah I am a jerk. Keep up the ad hominen attacks.

CTL
Click to expand...

I don't think what website, or environment, I decide to talk in matters much. Though in answering one of your points, I'd like to know how many people are going to be completely honest to a soldier or policeman (occupying soldier in particular) who asks for their opinion, compared to their friends, a voting booth, or even a reporter. But back to my point, I'd be glad to continue this discussion when you can tell me how a soldier has a more accurate viewpoint of iraqi civilian life than an iraqi civilian.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Also, your line of thinking is extremely convenient since it ensures that you will never have to think of the possibility that you'd end up like them, since everything is their own doing.[/QUOTE]

Your circumstances and your situation are not the be all and end all. Ultimately, you are responsible for your own choices. Don't you believe that of yourself? And if you do, why should you extend get out of jail free cards to other people? I took responsibility for my own life and decisions years ago, and that's why I'm not on welfare with 5 kids smoking/selling drugs and playing basketball all day like the greater majority of my family. In America, if you don't like the situation that you're in, you normally have the power to change it.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']You also seem to completely ignore the reasoning behind such decisions among many poor people. I remember a study done on 1st grade students, they randomly split the students into two groups for the year, one treated as the bad group one as the good group. By the end of the year, their actions, grades and behavior reflected those differences, even though at the beginning of the year they were indistinguishable. The conditions you are raised in, the family you are raised in (or lack thereof) and the neighborhood you're raised in all have influences on you. And practically everyone acknowledges this, wealthy parents want to give kids all the advantages of life, such as top of the line education. Most people seem to agree you can give a child advantages, but many people refuse to apply the same line of reasoning in explaining why people can be hindered by their situation. But also, for me to maintain a middle class lifestyle is much easier than for a person raised in a family that can barely survive paycheck to paycheck to achieve a middle class lifestyle.[/QUOTE]

I think that you're the one ignoring the reasoning, because you are using the reasoning of psychology (which is iffy at best) to supplant the reasoning of indviduals. Having lived your own life with the hurdles and circumstances that come with your socioeconmic station, you are well equipped to call bullshit on anyone who has gone through the same things and pretends that it was something other than what it was. It means that you also would probably have better insight into that station than someone who had not lived it. Where you think, believe, or consult studies, I know because I was there. If you really want to know, find a trusted friend that you know to be honest and comfortable with himself and ask him one on one. I'm not saying that he'll totally agree with me, but I'm sure it'll be probably be closer to my way of thinking than yours.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top