Poll: Most Americans say Iraq war not worth it

[quote name='alonzomourning23']
I don't think what website, or environment, I decide to talk in matters much. Though in answering one of your points, I'd like to know how many people are going to be completely honest to a soldier or policeman (occupying soldier in particular) who asks for their opinion, compared to their friends, a voting booth, or even a reporter. But back to my point, I'd be glad to continue this discussion when you can tell me how a soldier has a more accurate viewpoint of iraqi civilian life than an iraqi civilian.[/QUOTE]

Oh the occupation is over we are guests of the IIG. Does anyone but me actually understand what is going on?

Back to your point - what average Iraqi are you talking about? You know some?

I am confused where all this discontent is coming from?

And I am puzzled by you need and desire to discredit those of us who have actually been there.

Could it be because we aren't all doom and gloom fitting in perfectly with your worldview of Iraq?

I wonder.

CTL
 
I don't believe that we're totally responsible for our own choices. If I never knew anything but x and y, am I responsible for not having the ability to know z?

that seems preposterous.

It is not true that in American you can always change things. My best friend's family had to sell their dairy farm of 3 generations, not because they didn't work hard or because they were bad business people. Simply, Kraft controls the dairy industry with its buying power, and ran them out of business.

People who argue for an individualistic dog-eat-dog world scare me.

You really think that people get what they deserve?
You think the people with Silver Spoons deserve what they have, or for that matter, the poor blacks?

You individualize yourself, saying you got out of it, and yet you call it the unanimous black community, these are startlingly contradictory.
[quote name='atreyue']Your circumstances and your situation are not the be all and end all. Ultimately, you are responsible for your own choices. Don't you believe that of yourself? And if you do, why should you extend get out of jail free cards to other people? I took responsibility for my own life and decisions years ago, and that's why I'm not on welfare with 5 kids smoking/selling drugs and playing basketball all day like the greater majority of my family. In America, if you don't like the situation that you're in, you normally have the power to change it.



I think that you're the one ignoring the reasoning, because you are using the reasoning of psychology (which is iffy at best) to supplant the reasoning of indviduals. Having lived your own life with the hurdles and circumstances that come with your socioeconmic station, you are well equipped to call bullshit on anyone who has gone through the same things and pretends that it was something other than what it was. It means that you also would probably have better insight into that station than someone who had not lived it. Where you think, believe, or consult studies, I know because I was there. If you really want to know, find a trusted friend that you know to be honest and comfortable with himself and ask him one on one. I'm not saying that he'll totally agree with me, but I'm sure it'll be probably be closer to my way of thinking than yours.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Oh the occupation is over we are guests of the IIG. Does anyone but me actually understand what is going on?

Back to your point - what average Iraqi are you talking about? You know some?

I am confused where all this discontent is coming from?

And I am puzzled by you need and desire to discredit those of us who have actually been there.

Could it be because we aren't all doom and gloom fitting in perfectly with your worldview of Iraq?

I wonder.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Guests only as a technicality. Though I'm not going to answer anything else unless you can either explain how a soldier knows more about iraqi civilian life than an iraqi civilian, or say otherwise.
 
[quote name='atreyue']Your circumstances and your situation are not the be all and end all. Ultimately, you are responsible for your own choices. Don't you believe that of yourself? And if you do, why should you extend get out of jail free cards to other people? I took responsibility for my own life and decisions years ago, and that's why I'm not on welfare with 5 kids smoking/selling drugs and playing basketball all day like the greater majority of my family. In America, if you don't like the situation that you're in, you normally have the power to change it.[/quote]

Circumstances influence your personality, and circumstances influence the possibilites that are available to you (and how easy or difficult to obtain those possibilities are). Sometimes what you did works, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, a poor person has to put forth much more effort (not counting luck) to achieve what middle class people start off with, just getting to where you or I are alone is an achievement.



I think that you're the one ignoring the reasoning, because you are using the reasoning of psychology (which is iffy at best) to supplant the reasoning of indviduals. Having lived your own life with the hurdles and circumstances that come with your socioeconmic station, you are well equipped to call bullshit on anyone who has gone through the same things and pretends that it was something other than what it was. It means that you also would probably have better insight into that station than someone who had not lived it. Where you think, believe, or consult studies, I know because I was there. If you really want to know, find a trusted friend that you know to be honest and comfortable with himself and ask him one on one. I'm not saying that he'll totally agree with me, but I'm sure it'll be probably be closer to my way of thinking than yours.
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Wait, maybe my previous example did apply to you to some extent. You are saying your experience with poverty, and your solution, works for everyone? Everyones situation is different, different problems, different solutions. You can't just speak for everyone because your situation was similar on the surface, just as I can't speak for why people born in the middle class rise or fall solely based on what has occured in my life. Though I don't think we're going to get anywhere, my line of thinking has always been that you are born with possible personality traits, and that the way you are raised and the environment you are surrounded with greatly influence how and which traits you are born with. Also, since I am majoring in psychology (and planning to minor in sociology) that viewpoint is only being reinforced.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Circumstances influence your personality, and circumstances influence the possibilites that are available to you (and how easy or difficult to obtain those possibilities are). Sometimes what you did works, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, a poor person has to put forth much more effort (not counting luck) to achieve what middle class people start off with, just getting to where you or I are alone is an achievement.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that your economic station determines how good your life is. I was just as happy dirt poor as I am now that I've got a little money. I'm not referring to what I did to change classes, but actually what I did to change my outlook on life and myself.


[quote name='alonzomourning23']Wait, maybe my previous example did apply to you to some extent. You are saying your experience with poverty, and your solution, works for everyone? Everyones situation is different, different problems, different solutions. You can't just speak for everyone because your situation was similar on the surface, just as I can't speak for why people born in the middle class rise or fall solely based on what has occured in my life. Though I don't think we're going to get anywhere, my line of thinking has always been that you are born with possible personality traits, and that the way you are raised and the environment you are surrounded with greatly influence how and which traits you are born with.[/QUOTE]

Since I have already adressed the poverty issue above, let's talk about one's circumstances. I think that cultural mores shape the environmet that one grows up in. This cultural self-stereotyping can tell people that, even though they are born with particular personality traits, they must embrace or emulate the particular ones that the culture has aggrandized. When a culture embraces unhealthy traits, then that culture as a whole is in trouble.

I assume that this is the earlier example that you feel applies to me:

[quote name='alonzomourning23']I think people often feel that, due to their membership to a particular group, they can speak for that whole group when talking to people who are not in that group[/QUOTE]

I think it's interesting that you would say this after trying to make a point by basically saying that I would see the truth if I was with or asked a black person:

[quote name='alonzomourning23'](Get someone black or dark skinned and try walking around with them. When I go to a mall with someone like that, they get watched in every store we enter, constantly asked if they need help to check on them, but often ignored when they actually look for help, are more likely to be accused of stealing, and more likely to be treated rudely than I am, and that's just shopping, not dealing with cops or employers yet)[/QUOTE]

But when I say that I am in fact a Black person who was raised in the socioeconomic group being discussed and disagrees, it's a case of one trying to speak for the whole group.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Then again, this is also just a convenient way to dismiss those who disagree, gotta walk a fine line here.[/QUOTE]

This is a very true statement.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']I don't believe that we're totally responsible for our own choices. If I never knew anything but x and y, am I responsible for not having the ability to know z?

that seems preposterous.[/QUOTE]

The only thing that seems preposterous here is your flawed logic. If you only knew x and y, why would you be faulted for not choosing z? You work with what you have, that's life. If x is better than y, then you should choose x, end o story. Some magical unknowable option (notice how the ideas of unknowable and option are in direct opposition to each other?) is ludicrous. It's almost as if you used variables instead of the actual things being discussed in an attempt to add credibility to your argument.

[quote name='Sleepkyng']It is not true that in American you can always change things. My best friend's family had to sell their dairy farm of 3 generations, not because they didn't work hard or because they were bad business people. Simply, Kraft controls the dairy industry with its buying power, and ran them out of business.[/QUOTE]

I don't remember blaming anyone for being run out of business. You simply do the best you can, irregardless of how much money you have. You may not obtain the goal of having whatever it is you want, but you're a good person for trying (which your buddy would probably agree with).

[quote name='Sleepkyng']People who argue for an individualistic dog-eat-dog world scare me.[/QUOTE]

You're gonna have to show me where I said that before I even bother replying

[quote name='Sleepkyng']You really think that people get what they deserve?
You think the people with Silver Spoons deserve what they have, or for that matter, the poor blacks?[/QUOTE]

If a family works hard just to make ends meet, and they are still poor, that's OK. If someone decides to do nothing and live off of others, it's not.At no point did I criticize anyone for having or having a certain amount of money. In fact, I'm the only one in this conversation whose arguments are in no way based on something as trivial as money. Hmmm...

[quote name='Sleepkyng']You individualize yourself, saying you got out of it, and yet you call it the unanimous black community, these are startlingly contradictory.[/QUOTE]

I guess the idea of someone being part of a community and leaving it (therefore no longer being a part of it) is startlingly contradictory if you say it is. Are you saying that, as a Black person, I can never choose to leave the community? Is a born Jew still a Jew if he converts to Christianity?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Guests only as a technicality. Though I'm not going to answer anything else unless you can either explain how a soldier knows more about iraqi civilian life than an iraqi civilian, or say otherwise.[/QUOTE]

No guests as a legality.

And I still don't know what Iraqi civillian you personally know that you can count on for commentary more than Americans that have been over there in the military.

Oh but thats right, I am not the lawyer and I wasn't there as a JAG so I wouldn't know what I am talking about. Perhaps someone on a video game message forum would know better?

But we both know you don't know of any average Iraqis. You are merely being obtuse.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']No guests as a legality.

And I still don't know what Iraqi civillian you personally know that you can count on for commentary more than Americans that have been over there in the military.

Oh but thats right, I am not the lawyer and I wasn't there as a JAG so I wouldn't know what I am talking about. Perhaps someone on a video game message forum would know better?

But we both know you don't know of any average Iraqis. You are merely being obtuse.

CTL[/QUOTE]

See, unless you're really good at arguing and changing the subject, it's better not to answer at all then to keep skirting around the question. What's this, the 4th or 5th time you ignored it?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']See, unless you're really good at arguing and changing the subject, it's better not to answer at all then to keep skirting around the question. What's this, the 4th or 5th time you ignored it?[/QUOTE]

Where have you heard from Iraqis, if I may ask? If it was on a news broadcast, do you think it's dangerous to assume that non-american media is unbiased?
 
on topic, I only read the first page, but didn't see anyone point out who the poll was done by...cnn/usa today are biased..
 
[quote name='atreyue']Where have you heard from Iraqis, if I may ask? If it was on a news broadcast, do you think it's dangerous to assume that non-american media is unbiased?[/QUOTE]

It's dangerous to assume any media is unbiased, though I'd say most major foreign media (in nations with free press) less so (no white house pressure, and their country is not the driving force in the war, or in the case of britain, not as rabid with patriotism). But polls taken, interviews done, and just outright info (ie. intermittent electricity, poor water sanitation, increased crime rates (also women stating that it is now unsafe to walk alone at night) etc.). Basically, ctlesq is more biased than any major news source I can think of (even moreso than what comes out of the white house, and he has a much rosier picture than other soldiers I've talked to). And taking another area as an example, who do you think has a more accurate view of an occupations effects on civilians, palestinians or israeli soldiers? If I want to ask what day to day life in a ghetto is like and their feelings about the police force, I ask residents, not cops.

Besides, wanting saddam gone and actually liking the u.s. occupation are very different things, and ctlesq keeps insisting that it isn't occupation, and not just as a technicality (even then it's debatable). And it wasn't to long ago (with all the soldiers complaining about lack of armor) that he was here insisting there was plenty of armor for soldiers, since his troop got it. He takes his experience (though, even dealing with domestic issues, he seems extremely biased, even taking into account that everyone is unbiased, some more than others) as if they were the same of every soldier in Iraq, and he takes his experiences to be similar to those people in completely different living conditions and environments (namely the civilians in vastly different areas of iraq).

Though most of the news I obtain is from major internet news sites from varying countries, I don't really watch news on tv unless there is something I become particularly obsessed with, and even then usually only live events.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']See, unless you're really good at arguing and changing the subject, it's better not to answer at all then to keep skirting around the question. What's this, the 4th or 5th time you ignored it?[/QUOTE]

All I will take this response from you as a concession that you have no response to me and lose the point.

Thanks for playing.

CTL
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']It's dangerous to assume any media is unbiased, though I'd say most major foreign media (in nations with free press) less so (no white house pressure, and their country is not the driving force in the war, or in the case of britain, not as rabid with patriotism). QUOTE]

part of my military job is working with the media. And i found when I was in Baghdad that the foreign media is way more biased than their US counterparts also they don't hold themselves up to the same level of excellence as the american media does. The foreign media writes pretty much whatever they want regardless ofwhat I told them.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']It's dangerous to assume any media is unbiased, though I'd say most major foreign media (in nations with free press) less so (no white house pressure, and their country is not the driving force in the war, or in the case of britain, not as rabid with patriotism). But polls taken, interviews done, and just outright info (ie. intermittent electricity, poor water sanitation, increased crime rates (also women stating that it is now unsafe to walk alone at night) etc.). Basically, ctlesq is more biased than any major news source I can think of (even moreso than what comes out of the white house, and he has a much rosier picture than other soldiers I've talked to). And taking another area as an example, who do you think has a more accurate view of an occupations effects on civilians, palestinians or israeli soldiers? If I want to ask what day to day life in a ghetto is like and their feelings about the police force, I ask residents, not cops.

Besides, wanting saddam gone and actually liking the u.s. occupation are very different things, and ctlesq keeps insisting that it isn't occupation, and not just as a technicality (even then it's debatable). And it wasn't to long ago (with all the soldiers complaining about lack of armor) that he was here insisting there was plenty of armor for soldiers, since his troop got it. He takes his experience (though, even dealing with domestic issues, he seems extremely biased, even taking into account that everyone is unbiased, some more than others) as if they were the same of every soldier in Iraq, and he takes his experiences to be similar to those people in completely different living conditions and environments (namely the civilians in vastly different areas of iraq).

Though most of the news I obtain is from major internet news sites from varying countries, I don't really watch news on tv unless there is something I become particularly obsessed with, and even then usually only live events.[/QUOTE]

Gotta remember that the media is not only biased in what they write but in who they interview, often looking for just the right soundbyte to compliment their article. Also, most nations love nothing more than to make america look bad, so they may have a little more of a vested interest in portraying a particular point of view than one might assume.

As for the occupation, I'm not surprised that they think they don't need an american presence to maintain the peace and build a better society from the ashes of the old. I'm sure anyone in that situation would resent needing help. But if they couldn't obtain their better world on their own (and they couldn't), what makes you think they'd be able to mantain forward progress or even the current state without help?
 
[quote name='atreyue']Gotta remember that the media is not only biased in what they write but in who they interview, often looking for just the right soundbyte to compliment their article. Also, most nations love nothing more than to make america look bad, so they may have a little more of a vested interest in portraying a particular point of view than one might assume.

As for the occupation, I'm not surprised that they think they don't need an american presence to maintain the peace and build a better society from the ashes of the old. I'm sure anyone in that situation would resent needing help. But if they couldn't obtain their better world on their own (and they couldn't), what makes you think they'd be able to mantain forward progress or even the current state without help?[/QUOTE]

I've stated previously I don't think we should just leave right now.

All I will take this response from you as a concession that you have no response to me and lose the point.

Thanks for playing.

CTL
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Usually when someone asks a question, you answer, then you ask a question, they answer etc. We haven't got past the part of you answering, hell your original response to it proceeded to completely ignore it. Hell, even if I had no answer, not like you have one to mine. I've told you repeatedly I'm not going to answer any more questions from you until you answer the original one I asked, no reason to back down on my word just because you decide to ask a new question and still not answer mine.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Utterly tasteless.

And completely in keeping with your "character".

CTL[/QUOTE]

Coming from the person who feels that the poor are here for your amusement.... :)

You've spent some time with some real poor-ass people over there, still feel that way?

You still over there?
 
[quote name='Rich']If our military was capable of ousting every dictator in the world, I would support it every step of the way.[/QUOTE]

While were at it we can spread the word of our lord!

Crusadi-lisious!
 
[quote name='Rich']Clinton was the worst piece of shit excuse for a president this country has ever had.

The fact that a man involved in a huge cocaine distribution ring via money allocated from him as governor made it to president speaks volumes both about this country and the man. I don't want to even know how the fuck he made it to the presidency.[/QUOTE]

What the fuck are you talking about? Bush was an ex-cokehead, who didnt even show up to his cushy-ass military position his father set-up. Not to mention an alchoholic.

And we all know how George Bush became president...lets see, his brother was Govn of a state that was vital to Bush's presidentcy. Somehow they lost all the votes at the right time, and then Bush wins! Weeeee! Then Bush makes all of the Florida people part of his cabinet! YEEEEE HAAWWWW!

http://news4florida.tripod.com/index1.htmlhttp://news4florida.tripod.com/index1.html
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']
Usually when someone asks a question, you answer, then you ask a question, they answer etc. We haven't got past the part of you answering, hell your original response to it proceeded to completely ignore it. Hell, even if I had no answer, not like you have one to mine. I've told you repeatedly I'm not going to answer any more questions from you until you answer the original one I asked, no reason to back down on my word just because you decide to ask a new question and still not answer mine.[/QUOTE]

The fact of the matter is I have answered your question. At least one other person has commented on how flawed your original point was.

That you don't understand that isn't anyone's problem but your own.

But I am sure we would all like to know what average Iraqi you have been talking to that has commented on their discontent with Iraq's social services.

[quote name='Mookyjooky']Coming from the person who feels that the poor are here for your amusement....

You've spent some time with some real poor-ass people over there, still feel that way?

You still over there?[/quote]

Mookyjooky - good to hear from you again.

1. I don't understand people's fixation with my quote. It has been there almost since when I joined. Whatever. I suspect its the new format which makes it more pominient.

2. Baghdad is a dump, but I hated Kuwait. At least the Iraqis had an excuse after 11 years of sanctions for being a shithole.

3. I got back about 2 weeks ago. I would post some photos but I don't think I can.

CTL
 
[quote name='Mookyjooky']What the fuck are you talking about? Bush was an ex-cokehead, who didnt even show up to his cushy-ass military position his father set-up. Not to mention an alchoholic.

And we all know how George Bush became president...lets see, his brother was Govn of a state that was vital to Bush's presidentcy. Somehow they lost all the votes at the right time, and then Bush wins! Weeeee! Then Bush makes all of the Florida people part of his cabinet! YEEEEE HAAWWWW!

http://news4florida.tripod.com/index1.htmlhttp://news4florida.tripod.com/index1.html[/QUOTE]

No one ever mentions it, but what about all the perverted high school seniors and college frat boys who just thought it would be cool to have "bush" in the white house?

The fact of the matter is I have answered your question. At least one other person has commented on how flawed your original point was.

That you don't understand that isn't anyone's problem but your own.

But I am sure we would all like to know what average Iraqi you have been talking to that has commented on their discontent with Iraq's social services.
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Someone asked a question derived from your post, I answered theirs, I have nothing against answering anyone else. And this is a new one, you answered it? Ok, please show me where I can find your post answering how a u.s. soldier knows more about iraqi civilian life than an iraqi civilian. That comment is the only reason you responded to me, and you have yet to even address it.

You think you'd answer a simply question, especially since you seem interested in debating with me. I've always been stubborn and when I say I won't do something I don't, but I fail to see what's making you stubborn unless you just don't have a response.
 
For the umpteenth time: what Iraqi civillian do you know that you are relying on?

Call me crazy but it is the US military that is rebuilding the country - think they might know something about where the infrastructure stands?

Don't confuse stupidity with stuborness.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']For the umpteenth time: what Iraqi civillian do you know that you are relying on?

Call me crazy but it is the US military that is rebuilding the country - think they might know something about where the infrastructure stands?

Don't confuse stupidity with stuborness.

CTL[/QUOTE]

What exactly does the people I'm relying on have to do with the question "do u.s. soldiers know more about iraqi civilian life than iraqi civilians?"
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']What exactly does the people I'm relying on have to do with the question "do u.s. soldiers know more about iraqi civilian life than iraqi civilians?"[/QUOTE]

Well if you are dismissive of a soldier's knowledge of Iraqi civillian life and believe an Iraqi civillian would know better - who is this person you are relying on?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Well if you are dismissive of a soldier's knowledge of Iraqi civillian life and believe an Iraqi civillian would know better - who is this person you are relying on?[/QUOTE]

So you essentially agree, that a u.s. soldier knows more about iraqi civilian life than iraqi civilians?

My dismissal of that argument is based on you live a very different life than a civilian, and it is essentially impossible for you to know more about the day to day issues facing an existence you never lived. It also provides a better understanding of the way you think, and I find it hard to believe you can argue it isn't eroneous to conclude you know more about a life you never lived than someone who has lived it.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']So you essentially agree, that a u.s. soldier knows more about iraqi civilian life than iraqi civilians?

My dismissal of that argument is based on you live a very different life than a civilian, and it is essentially impossible for you to know more about the day to day issues facing an existence you never lived. It also provides a better understanding of the way you think, and I find it hard to believe you can argue it isn't eroneous to conclude you know more about a life you never lived than someone who has lived it.[/QUOTE]
No a solidier does not know more than a Iraqi citizen but they sure do know more than your "Iraqi Civilian". Just admit you made a false claim to give your argument some merit and move on.
 
[quote name='jlarlee']No a solidier does not know more than a citizen but they sure do know more than your "Iraqi Civilian". Just admit you made a false claim to give your argument some merit and move on.[/QUOTE]

So you really think that a US soldier knows more about Iraqi civilian life than an Iraqi civilian?
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']So you really think that a US soldier knows more about Iraqi civilian life than an Iraqi civilian?[/QUOTE]
No I don't hence my quote marks. It was being sarcastic because the guy doesn't know anybody and he made it up. In fact on eof our problems is that they are not honest enough with us
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']So you really think that a US soldier knows more about Iraqi civilian life than an Iraqi civilian?[/QUOTE]

I am still waiting for someone to produce an Iraqi civillian they have spoken with.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']I am still waiting for someone to produce an Iraqi civillian they have spoken with.

CTL[/QUOTE]
You might be waiting awhile. They can give you a lot of unverified web reports though
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']So you essentially agree, that a u.s. soldier knows more about iraqi civilian life than iraqi civilians?

My dismissal of that argument is based on you live a very different life than a civilian, and it is essentially impossible for you to know more about the day to day issues facing an existence you never lived. It also provides a better understanding of the way you think, and I find it hard to believe you can argue it isn't eroneous to conclude you know more about a life you never lived than someone who has lived it.[/QUOTE]

I think that the basis of CTL's argument is (or should be) this:

You assume that an opinion given by an iraqi over the news is worth more than that of a soldier's personal opinion. Does this mean you would take it as truth if an Iraqi civilian was quoted in american media as saying that he/she favored the occupation? If not, then it appears that you're just choosing the outlet that favors your opinion and calling that one less biased. If you want to quote or refer to data from a particular source, you should be able to say that it is definitely accurate. The media doesn't fit into this category. Accounts that come from an individual who was there may not represent accurately the Iraqi point of view and may also include some personal bias, but at least you know that up front and can account for it.
 
This is a long thread and I wanted to reply to a few things so here it goes:

I don't know any of the people who are posting on this thread but there has been a lot of America bashing. First things first, if you don't like it do something about it or get the hell out. I hate all these people that say that this country sucks, but then do nothing about. People who complain about the president and don't vote. Honestly when I went to vote I voted for the person who I believed would do the least amount of damage to the country. (Yes I voted for Bush). I didn't like either of my options and will start to vote for third party canidates. The big thing we are always told about this country is that we have a voice but actions always speak louder than words. I love this country, I bleed red white and blue. I find it very disrespectful for someone to say that they hate 95% of the population. Go into a nursing home and tell all those men and women who fought in WWII that you hate them. That all that they sacrificed was completely wasted on you, and that you truly aren't thankful for what they did. We have the ability as Americans to change things we don't like about this country. Yeah our country has problems but if your solution to just complain and say everything sucks then get the hell out.

Okay next thing. Circumstances do not determine where you will go in life, you do. I don't care where you come from, don't give me this crap that the people with the "silver spoon" have a better life than other people. A majority of rich people who never really work for their money are unhappy or even depressed. There are people who are happy living in a tent in the woods hunting for food maybe not for everyone but still. This country is founded on the idea that if you work hard you will succeed, that doesn't mean you won't fall flat on your face from time to time. The most successful people aren't the smartest or the strongest they are the ones who don't give up. That is the defintion of a successful person. I have never had a lot of money, I lived in a house that was about to be condemned, slept in a bed with three of my other brothers and have never gotten new clothes. (God Bless Goodwill!) But I would never trade in the life I had for anything else. To recap: Circumstances affect you but you ultimately decide where you want to go in life not anything else.

Okay I think that is my whole tirade.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']CTL isn't smart enough to write that...[/QUOTE]

Between them, CTL and jlarlee have said everything I said. Is CTL the dumb one if he felt that something that should be obvious to everyone didn't need to be spelled out? I think the dumb ones are the ones who insist on taking information from obviously flawed sources and calling them true or logical and criticizing others for doing the same thing. But the really dumb ones are those who never feel a need to back up anything they say and don't even attempt to do anything more than insult whoever the minority is in a particular thread...
 
[quote name='burningelf']This is a long thread and I wanted to reply to a few things so here it goes:

I don't know any of the people who are posting on this thread but there has been a lot of America bashing. First things first, if you don't like it do something about it or get the hell out. I hate all these people that say that this country sucks, but then do nothing about. People who complain about the president and don't vote. Honestly when I went to vote I voted for the person who I believed would do the least amount of damage to the country. (Yes I voted for Bush). I didn't like either of my options and will start to vote for third party canidates. The big thing we are always told about this country is that we have a voice but actions always speak louder than words. I love this country, I bleed red white and blue. I find it very disrespectful for someone to say that they hate 95% of the population. Go into a nursing home and tell all those men and women who fought in WWII that you hate them. That all that they sacrificed was completely wasted on you, and that you truly aren't thankful for what they did. We have the ability as Americans to change things we don't like about this country. Yeah our country has problems but if your solution to just complain and say everything sucks then get the hell out.

Okay next thing. Circumstances do not determine where you will go in life, you do. I don't care where you come from, don't give me this crap that the people with the "silver spoon" have a better life than other people. A majority of rich people who never really work for their money are unhappy or even depressed. There are people who are happy living in a tent in the woods hunting for food maybe not for everyone but still. This country is founded on the idea that if you work hard you will succeed, that doesn't mean you won't fall flat on your face from time to time. The most successful people aren't the smartest or the strongest they are the ones who don't give up. That is the defintion of a successful person. I have never had a lot of money, I lived in a house that was about to be condemned, slept in a bed with three of my other brothers and have never gotten new clothes. (God Bless Goodwill!) But I would never trade in the life I had for anything else. To recap: Circumstances affect you but you ultimately decide where you want to go in life not anything else.

Okay I think that is my whole tirade.[/QUOTE]

sure, people should vote, and those that don't shouldn't complain. no one's arguing that. but as an American citizen i have a right (and according to the founding fathers, the federalist papers, and contractarian theory in general) i have an obligation to voice dissent when i feel the need to.

Dissent is a vital part of democracy. This keeps the "mob rule" from becoming too powerful while still representing individuals in civil society.

If you think voting every 2 years for your president, senator or house reps is being an active citizen then you reflect the serious decline in active politics among citizens in America since 1970.

If you also think that working hard will get you where you want to go, you also reflect middle america's sentiment (not that i'm saying it is a bad thing, i whole heartedly back it)

but do you at least acknowledge that there is the possibility that some people will never get to where they want to go no matter how hard they work?

You can say "that's life" or you can consider WHY it is that they will not get there. Blaming there inability to get there is not really enough to explore the topic.

interestingly enough, the idea of "work hard, get what you work for, succeed" is a decidedly American ideal, not reflected in Europe, parts of Asia and Latin America. Also, the idea of working hard, and succeeding does not accomdate for a lifestyle that doesn't reap capital rewards for the hardwork (a woman raising a child is certainly hard work, but she can't make a living doing that; also, most artists cannot make a living off of their work, unless the market accomodates their effort, which is letting a business interfere with art [which is as old as time, but decidedly unfavorable] which i don't condone).

I'm not against the pro-Iraq, pro-Bush group here, but i find the adamant stance interesting and puzzling. These arguments inevitablly boil down to "you're right, i'm wrong" "you don't know, we know" etc. from both sides

If you are to consider what i'm saying from a different pair of shoes other than you rown, I will do the same for you. Maybe through the discourse we can understand our different stances, and in turn our own?

just a thought
 
Ehh, come on guys. The American capitalist way of life is the only way to be happy! Look at those other poor countries who are clinging onto their pathetic cultures and ways; they're poor and starving. Only the western world has figured out how to live; we may still have homeless and hungry people but it's nothing compared to the proportion of starving people in third world countries. The western world have figured out how to survive better and they're just trying to help the rest of the world live well too. America knows what is right for the world and the world be be closer to perfection if we were given the chance to rule the world!!!

Am I being sarcastic?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']I am still waiting for someone to produce an Iraqi civillian they have spoken with.

CTL[/QUOTE]


I have relatives over there that I speak with almost every night over Yahoo Messenger, and the DONT like Bush, the soldiers, or anything they have done. They have told me it was better before the war and it has just became worse since the occupation.

So I probably have a better Idea about whats going on there than you, seeing as I know people over there.
 
[quote name='whoknows']I have relatives over there that I speak with almost every night over Yahoo Messenger, and the DONT like Bush, the soldiers, or anything they have done. They have told me it was better before the war and it has just became worse since the occupation.

So I probably have a better Idea about whats going on there than you, seeing as I know people over there.[/QUOTE]

I presume those would be former Ba'ath party member that I had sent to Abu Ghraib and Bucca then and they just got out, seeing as I was just there.

CTL
 
First things first I am not pro-Bush. I just thought he would do the least amount of damage to our country so I voted for him. I honestly didn't want Kerry or Bush to be president. There are much better canidates but most are too honest. You need to lie to be in politics, its sad but true.

I will agree that there are a few people that just get screwed no matter what they do but that normally is the minority and a small minority at that. Most people who believed they haven't "succeded" in life usually are lazy, its sad to say but normally its true. The blame everybody except themselves. That's the biggest problem with the homeless and a lot of the poor. Most of them get there because they waste money and are lazy. Now that is not always the case but normally it is. You know it would be great if everybody could be taken care of but sadly it's not going to happen. It just like nature, the momma bird only takes care of the baby bird for so long. Eventually the baby bird has to fend for itself, it can't go back to its mom for food after a certain point. The only person who is going to take care of you is yourself, nobody else. Americans as a whole have lost a great deal of personal responsibilty and it is crippling our country. You know it's great to say that outside forces have put you in the horrible position you are in but guess what you are still in the same position. So do you just wait around for things around you to change or do you change it yourself?

It would be great if everyone could have a perfect start in life but that is never going to happen. All we need to do as Americans is make sure that everybody in this country has clothes on their back, food on the table, a roof over their head and a chance at an education. Even this is hard to do! I don't believe that I should do anything more than that.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']I presume those would be former Ba'ath party member that I had sent to Abu Ghraib and Bucca then and they just got out, seeing as I was just there.

CTL[/QUOTE]

You can go fuck yourself.

You are the most disrespectful CAG I have yet to encounter.
Next time you are there go get shot and enjoy your stay in Hell.

What is going on in Iraq is WRONG.
Little girls getting RAPED by American soldiers. LITTLE GIRLS, how sick is that. The American Soldiers stealing from the people. In Fallujah the soldiers going into people houses and dragging the males out and beating them.
The US classifying Power Plants, and Water plants as "military targets" and bombing them so that there is no power and no clean water for the civillians to drink. The prisoners not being treated like HUMANS, being taken around with their heads covered, and a lot of times without clothes, and beaten while they are there.

I am in no way saying that all the US Soldiers over there are like that, but I am pissed with the situation and fear for my relatives safety, and then people like you come along and make dumbass remarks like that. What would you expect my response to be?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']I presume those would be former Ba'ath party member that I had sent to Abu Ghraib and Bucca then and they just got out, seeing as I was just there.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Man, this stupid remark takes away from everything you've said.

This is clearly a flame, and you are a total troll.
You're not looking to broaden your horizons, or learn from others, or interact in a way that would contribute for either yourself or others.

My wish for America is not that everyone has clothes on their back, but that they are tolerant and understand what a privilege and responsibility it is to live in an open society.

But you aren't listening, or even considering what I'm saying or why I'm saying it. To you, this is a battle, and we are on opposite sides.

How mundane and ridiculous this conception is.

Unfortunately, with remarks like yours, I see this as being as very hard challenge, especially with a comment so soaked in malice and spite. If you have been over there, it has taught you nothing, left you with nothing, and all that remains is your own self-righteousness. The same fate that Laertes in Hamlet suffered is yours.

I feel sorry for you.
 
Oh here comes the outrage. After one poster suggested I killed civillians twice? Please. Don't embarass yourself.

[quote name='whoknows']You can go fuck yourself.

You are the most disrespectful CAG I have yet to encounter.
Next time you are there go get shot and enjoy your stay in Hell.
[/quote]

Thats nice. Go wish death on someone. Was I somehow mistaken that a former Ba'ath party member fits your anti-Bush, anti-regime change, anti-US military would be displeased with the invasion.



[quote name='whoknows']What is going on in Iraq is WRONG.[/quote]

That is a matter of opinion, which is certainly unsubstantiated by your statements.


[quote name='whoknows']Little girls getting RAPED by American soldiers. LITTLE GIRLS, how sick is that. [/quote]

A bold faced lie spread by FRE and by terrorist networks throughout the country. Such an accusation has not been made by the ICRC or Human Rights Watch. You embarass yourself with such outlandish claims.


[quote name='whoknows']The American Soldiers stealing from the people. In Fallujah the soldiers going into people houses and dragging the males out and beating them.[/quote]

More lies. More to the point if you were male and in Fallujah after a certain date you were there for one reason: to fight against the multi-national force. While you deserve humane treatment under the rules of war this wasn't a game.


[quote name='whoknows']The US classifying Power Plants, and Water plants as "military targets" and bombing them so that there is no power and no clean water for the civillians to drink.[/quote]

More lies. No such classifications were made. Perhaps you missed it but currently the terrorist groups are targeting such facilities - not the US.

[quote name='whoknows']The prisoners not being treated like HUMANS, being taken around with their heads covered, and a lot of times without clothes, and beaten while they are there.[/quote]

Wow - their heads covered? What's next? Handcuffs? In a country where the organic police have to wear masks to protect their identities...you don't have th first clue.

[quote name='whoknows']I am in no way saying that all the US Soldiers over there are like that, but I am pissed with the situation and fear for my relatives safety, and then people like you come along and make dumbass remarks like that. What would you expect my response to be?[/QUOTE]

You may not say ALL American soldiers are like that but you imply they are. You in fact said you hoped I got shot.

My comment was brillantly in line with what you said. You just weren't prepared for such a brillant, debilitating response.

You maybe suprised to know that I worked with a number of Iraqis and consider them friends and am concerned about their safety, but not becuase of the US but because of the terrorists - something you avoided, their complete and utter responsibility for the death and chaos in Iraq.

CTL
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']Man, this stupid remark takes away from everything you've said.

This is clearly a flame, and you are a total troll.
You're not looking to broaden your horizons, or learn from others, or interact in a way that would contribute for either yourself or others.[/quote]

Why because I nailed him? You think anyone but a Ba'ath Party member fits that description.

Edit: And by the way where was your self-righteous justice when it was suggested by a poster on two different occasions that I murdered civillians in Iraq? I guess that person wasn't a troll?

[quote name='Sleepkyng']Unfortunately, with remarks like yours, I see this as being as very hard challenge, especially with a comment so soaked in malice and spite. If you have been over there, it has taught you nothing, left you with nothing, and all that remains is your own self-righteousness. The same fate that Laertes in Hamlet suffered is yours.[/quote]

Hahaha, that was SO self-righteous even I am amused. I am Hamlet. I would prefer to be Corilianus.

[quote name='Sleepkyng']I feel sorry for you.[/QUOTE]

Don't. I have a Platinum American Express Card and am drinking Lagavulin scotch.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Oh here comes the outrage. After one poster suggested I killed civillians twice? Please. Don't embarass yourself.



Thats nice. Go wish death on someone. Was I somehow mistaken that a former Ba'ath party member fits your anti-Bush, anti-regime change, anti-US military would be displeased with the invasion.





That is a matter of opinion, which is certainly unsubstantiated by your statements.




A bold faced lie spread by FRE and by terrorist networks throughout the country. Such an accusation has not been made by the ICRC or Human Rights Watch. You embarass yourself with such outlandish claims.




More lies. More to the point if you were male and in Fallujah after a certain date you were there for one reason: to fight against the multi-national force. While you deserve humane treatment under the rules of war this wasn't a game.




More lies. No such classifications were made. Perhaps you missed it but currently the terrorist groups are targeting such facilities - not the US.



Wow - their heads covered? What's next? Handcuffs? In a country where the organic police have to wear masks to protect their identities...you don't have th first clue.



You may not say ALL American soldiers are like that but you imply they are. You in fact said you hoped I got shot.

My comment was brillantly in line with what you said. You just weren't prepared for such a brillant, debilitating response.

You maybe suprised to know that I worked with a number of Iraqis and consider them friends and am concerned about their safety, but not becuase of the US but because of the terrorists - something you avoided, their complete and utter responsibility for the death and chaos in Iraq.

CTL[/QUOTE]

dubya-gop-koolaid.jpg
 
[quote name='jlarlee']No a solidier does not know more than a Iraqi citizen but they sure do know more than your "Iraqi Civilian". Just admit you made a false claim to give your argument some merit and move on.[/QUOTE]

Might wanna point out that false claim, as I'm not aware of it. This whole thing started when he responded to my comment about iraqi soldiers knowing more than iraqi civilians, I don't know of any false claim I made. And I never claimed I knew an iraqi civilian personally, if you think I claimed then then you are the one mistaken.

I'd also like to point out that I did answer, more or less, ctlesq question a while ago when someone else asked it (atry I think).
 
[quote name='atreyue']I think that the basis of CTL's argument is (or should be) this:

You assume that an opinion given by an iraqi over the news is worth more than that of a soldier's personal opinion. Does this mean you would take it as truth if an Iraqi civilian was quoted in american media as saying that he/she favored the occupation? If not, then it appears that you're just choosing the outlet that favors your opinion and calling that one less biased. If you want to quote or refer to data from a particular source, you should be able to say that it is definitely accurate. The media doesn't fit into this category. Accounts that come from an individual who was there may not represent accurately the Iraqi point of view and may also include some personal bias, but at least you know that up front and can account for it.[/QUOTE]

Unless ctlesq wants to tell me the conditions of soldiers, I don't place much value in his words (and his words on the condition of soldiers do often contradict soldiers I have spoken with, on the issue of armor is one). CTLesq comes across as extremely biased, far beyond what can be considered normal, and very likely to only intereperet things in ways that already confirm what he believes, again much more so than most. I essentially place no value in his words, and his words often paint a much rosier picture than what comes out of the white house. My statements on Iraqis are based on news media reports (though I would argue that someone is more likely to tell a reporter their real opinion than an occupying soldier who has much more power and control over them), and poll results. CTLesq takes one event and seems to expand that to say that is the experience of everyone in somewhat similar conditions. He seems to be very poor at distinguishing his experience with others experiences. Essentially, I have no faith whatsoever in his opinion, and he's just one person. Obviously actually being there you gain a different perspective (and this is clear from situations I've been present for that have been covered by the news), but ctlesq has already put his own spin on it, far more than any of the news sources I place any trust in, imo.

People seem to assume I think Iraqis aren't glad saddam is gone, that we should leave iraq instantly, that there has been nothing good going on etc., this is not true and, in fact, I have argued against positions such as those, including in this thread (the first two I believe).


Though, to burning, I actually have been involved in groups to change things, human rights groups and political groups (though I don't tend not to last in political groups, the people tend to be nutjobs and radicals, while I always want a moderate form of everything they suggest, I tend to leave rather quickly, I can only think of one political group I ever got along with) are what I usually become involved in, and have helped organize events to raise awareness, such as bringing in guest speakers. I admit I did not vote in the 2004 election, but it was due to my lack of familiarity than with lack of desire. I did not understand the rules for voting outside the country and therefore missed the deadline (I thought it was the same as voting in the u.s., since you could vote in person in toronto if I remember correctly).
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Unless ctlesq wants to tell me the conditions of soldiers, I don't place much value in his words (and his words on the condition of soldiers do often contradict soldiers I have spoken with, on the issue of armor is one). CTLesq comes across as extremely biased, far beyond what can be considered normal, and very likely to only intereperet things in ways that already confirm what he believes, again much more so than most. I essentially place no value in his words, and his words often paint a much rosier picture than what comes out of the white house. My statements on Iraqis are based on news media reports (though I would argue that someone is more likely to tell a reporter their real opinion than an occupying soldier who has much more power and control over them), and poll results. CTLesq takes one event and seems to expand that to say that is the experience of everyone in somewhat similar conditions. He seems to be very poor at distinguishing his experience with others experiences. Essentially, I have no faith whatsoever in his opinion, and he's just one person. Obviously actually being there you gain a different perspective (and this is clear from situations I've been present for that have been covered by the news), but ctlesq has already put his own spin on it, far more than any of the news sources I place any trust in, imo. [/QUOTE]

You do appreciate how all one need do is remove my name, replace it with yours or a variety of other anti-GWB, anti-war people and make negative comments about the situation over there and consider what you have?

Further as for my experience being everyone else's experience I defy you to find where I made that claim.

And at least I have had the experience - while others just complain about how it is wrong to have been there and how screwed up it is.

I wonder who really has a position to speak on the subject?

CTL

Edit: We are now waiting on day two for that average Iraqi you have been talking to get a better idea of the conditions over there.
 
Edit: We are now waiting on day two for that average Iraqi you have been talking to get a better idea of the conditions over there.
Click to expand...

If that is the case, then I am on day two waiting for someone to tell me where I made that claim.
 
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