'Power' move by male students ruffles University of Chicago

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A group of University of Chicago students think it's time the campus focused more on its men.

A third-year student from Lake Bluff has formed Men in Power, a student organization that promises to help men get ahead professionally. But the group's emergence has been controversial, with some critics charging that its premise is misogynistic.

Others say it's about time men are championed, noting that recent job losses hit men harder and that women earn far more bachelor's and master's degrees than do men.

"It's an enormous disparity now," said Warren Farrell, author of "The Myth of Male Power" and former board member of the New York chapter of the National Organization for Women. He noted, among other things, an imbalance in government and private initiatives that advance the interests of women and girls.

Further, Farrell said, just because some men are doing well is hardly a reason not to applaud efforts to boost the careers of other men.

"It's like saying 'is it OK for the Yankees to keep recruiting new players because the Chicago Cubs have not won as often?' "

Steve Saltarelli, the president of Men in Power, wrote a satirical column in March in which he suggested forming such a group. "Anyone with an interest in both studying and learning from men in powerful positions, as well as issues involved with reverse sexism, may become a member of MiP," he wrote.

Shortly after the column ran, Saltarelli started getting e-mail messages from men eager to join.

"Mainly people are just excited about the idea that men can have a group as well," Saltarelli explained.

Sharlene Holly, associate dean of students and the director of student activities, said the University of Chicago has approximately nine women's advocacy groups on campus; this group would be the first male advocacy group.

Saltarelli said some 125 students -- including a few women -- have joined the group via its Facebook page. He said the group would host pre-professional groups in law, medicine and business, foster ties with alumni, bring in speakers to discuss masculinity and mentor local middle school students as part of its "Little Men in Power" program.

Holly said she expected to approve the organization's application this week. As a registered student organization, Men in Power could then apply for event funding. The group plans to hold its first event, a student panel discussion titled "Gender and Media: Trespassing the Taboo," on June 2.

Saltarelli, who plans to attend law school, said the emergence of Men in Power has angered some students, especially "people very set in their ways."

To be sure, its title attracts attention.

"The name implies some things that I don't love," said Liz Scoggin, a third-year student who joined the group a couple of weeks ago and now heads its outreach efforts. "I feel like it implies there aren't enough men in power or that kind of thing."

But Scoggin, who is close friends with Saltarelli, said she joined after learning more about the group's aims and after she felt assured that the organization would not pursue a sexist agenda.

Jessica Pan, president of Women in Business and a fourth-year student, questioned whether Men in Power's goals were being met by existing student groups.

"I'm not sure we really need another student organization that focuses on pre-professional development for men," Pan said, noting that, in just the area of business, there were five or six students groups that were gender-neutral.

Similarly, Ali Feenstra, a third-year student and a member of the Feminist Majority, questioned Men in Power's utility.

"It's like starting 'white men in business' -- there's not really any purpose," she said.

Fred Hayward, founder of Men's Rights Inc., would disagree.

Hayward, who is based in Sacramento, Calif., started his men's group in 1977. Then and now, he said, women have not paid enough attention to what it means to be a man in modern society.

Hayward said one of the biggest myths borne of the women's movement was that men like to help each other out.

"We are competing directly for access to women and jobs," he said.

The group's birth comes at a time when the recessionary ax has fallen especially hard on men. In April, the national unemployment rate for men was 10 percent compared with 7.6 percent for women, said Mark Perry, an economist at the University of Michigan in Flint.

That gap is an "all-time historical high," said Perry, who attributed it in part to a loss of jobs in male-dominated fields such as manufacturing and construction.

At the same time, he noted, women today hold about three out of the four jobs in education and health care -- both stable or expanding job fields.

Future employment is also an issue, some experts say. Since 1981, women have collected 135 for every 100 bachelor's degrees awarded to men, according to Perry. The gap is even wider at the master's level, with women trumping men 150 to 100, he said.

Saltarelli hopes Men in Power will help more men get ahead while raising awareness of the male experience.

"If we have good men in our society, everyone benefits," he said.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-u-of-c-mens-groupmay19,0,4707353.story

i thought id try and inject the vs forum with something fresh.

what do yall think? is this good? bad? unecessary? it sounds bad, i can understand that. but just look at that stat with degrees, seems like men need to get a little boost.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']It doesn't sound bad at all. If women and minorities can have groups that cater to themselves, why can't men?[/QUOTE]

Because power never shifts from the majority group and to think otherwise is racist/sexist. Everyone knows that the country is run by rich white males.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't born into a middle class white family with a penis. Then I could get some damn scholarship $$$.
 
[quote name='Magehart']Everyone knows that the country is run by rich white males.

[/QUOTE]

well i believe thats the notion that this group is trying to bust. yes, the country is run by rich white males. no, that does not mean all men are guaranteed success.
 
affirmative action in any regard is as socialist as you can get.

these divisive douchebags need to stfu and treat everyone as equal instead of trying to force equal conditions. you don't get equality by artificially stimulating one group and holding another back.
 
[quote name='Magehart']Because power never shifts from the majority group and to think otherwise is racist/sexist. Everyone knows that the country is run by rich white males.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't born into a middle class white family with a penis. Then I could get some damn scholarship $$$.[/QUOTE]

You have no idea how many times I said that in the past. Being white AND male was a scholarship curse.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']You have no idea how many times I said that in the past. Being white AND male was a scholarship curse.[/QUOTE]

Amen. I'm as staunch a liberal as they come on almost every possible issue, but I'll never be able to get behind affirmative action. I'll be judged on my merits and expect my peers to be judged alongside me as if they were equal, not given some artificial advantage just because I happen to have been born white, male, and into a middle class family.

If someone gets a job over me because they're more qualified, more power to them. But if I was more qualified and they got it anyway to fill some quota, fuck that. Thankfully that has never happened to me personally but back in HS I had friend rejected from college when they were deserving and told affirmative action was the reason. No thanks.
 
I don't see this as a bad thing. It's especially nice to see that they'll be mentoring some middle school kids, since a lot of them need some good role models.

Also, it's no joke about males and school. I was actually in one class this past semester that had about 32 women and 2 men (I was one of the guys).
 
[quote name='XxFuRy2Xx']I don't see this as a bad thing. It's especially nice to see that they'll be mentoring some middle school kids, since a lot of them need some good role models.

Also, it's no joke about males and school. I was actually in one class this past semester that had about 32 women and 2 men (I was one of the guys).[/QUOTE]

In four years of college I was never in a class which had more men than women. My university was 2/3 women, 1/3 men, and the disparity has only grown since then. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's becoming the reality.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']You have no idea how many times I said that in the past. Being white AND male was a scholarship curse.[/QUOTE]

Eh, maybe you should've worked harder in school.
 
AFAIK it's still a free country. I think it's fine as long as women have the opportunity to join (in the same vein that men can join NOW)

However I have a feeling it's going to end up like this...

bundy_sulk.jpg
 
[quote name='camoor']However I have a feeling it's going to end up like this...

bundy_sulk.jpg
[/QUOTE]

If Ed O'neill would do guest lectures i'd join in a heartbeat.
 
Really it just makes all the other groups look silly.

Anyway, and you probably won't ever see this in the press, but men getting less degrees is actually a sign of a good thing.

If you accept what you're told, that a degree is some kind of requirement to become a better person, then of course it looks bad that fewer men are getting degrees. I think what's really happening is the college-industrial complex is collapsing, and men are abandoning it first. I kind of touched on this in the other college threads.
 
[quote name='rickonker']
If you accept what you're told, that a degree is some kind of requirement to become a better person, then of course it looks bad that fewer men are getting degrees. I think what's really happening is the college-industrial complex is collapsing, and men are abandoning it first. I kind of touched on this in the other college threads.[/QUOTE]
I doubt the college system will collapse as long as jobs care about certifications rather than competence.

As for the main topic, I agree men should have there own interest group, white men get discriminated against all the time but it's ok because there white(I'm talking about more than scholarships and such, There's been cases where minority workers in government position stated that they wouldn't hire any white males.)
While minorities tend to do worse in school this seems to be more about socioeconomic background then race, and I think assistance should be based on such. I think a poor white boy from the ghetto is going to need much more help than a rich black girl in LA.
 
Haha, I don't really understand how people can so thoroughly misunderstand power or who has it. Do any of them really wonder why women have more jobs in education and healthcare?

Generally these kinds of groups come about when some white men get pissed because they personally don't have power and blame the women and minorities rather than other white men who actually have pretty much all the power. Divide and conquer.
 
Motherfuckers' heads are so high in the clouds that they can't look down and see the privilege they're born with.

Just another variation on the idiotic sort of "You'd never see a WHITE Entertainment Television network!" mentality.

Dudes need to learn what hegemony means.
 
I'm a middle class white male and I'm getting scholarships. I got ok grades. Not 4.0 or anything. More like 3.5 or 3.7. I forgot which. Is that good?
 
[quote name='bvharris']In four years of college I was never in a class which had more men than women. My university was 2/3 women, 1/3 men, and the disparity has only grown since then. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's becoming the reality.[/QUOTE]

And I've seen the opposite. Maybe it's what school you study in. I've been in classes where I was the only female in class with 40 guys (God damn, was *that* ever awkward), only to turn around the next semester and have a class with 25 women and 3 guys. I'm not saying I don't see the overall pattern of there being more women going through school than men, but there's so many other factors than race and gender. And the whole thing about men not getting as many degrees as women makes no sense to me. They're making it sound as if the world of academia only gets to give out a set number of diplomas every year. No; whoever finishes gets one. Where are the 'why's to this? And it doesn't make sense to say quota if there's more women and minorities than white males. There were 50,000 people last year at my school before someone finally said enough and put a cap on it, and walking all over campus every day, I sure as hell wasn't feeling like status quo ('cept on Wednesdays at noon.)

As for the topic itself, as long as they're being productive, AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN SCREWING ABOUT IN FRONT OF THE UNION HARASSING PEOPLE WITH INANITY, I don't care. There were far more irritating, pointless, and dare I say it destructive groups on campus at regular intervals than simply wanting to reminisce in some sort of good old days manly man subjective entitlement.
 
[quote name='Magehart']
Sometimes I wish I wasn't born into a middle class white family with a penis. Then I could get some damn scholarship $$$.[/QUOTE]

This. It seems we can never have free money. :(
 
[quote name='SpazX']Generally these kinds of groups come about when some white men get pissed because they personally don't have power and blame the women and minorities rather than other white men who actually have pretty much all the power. Divide and conquer.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='mykevermin']Just another variation on the idiotic sort of "You'd never see a WHITE Entertainment Television network!" mentality.[/QUOTE]

Ahh yes, bringing race into a discussion where it doesn't belong.

Since when were minority men not male? Were we reading the same article? There is a crisis of good male role models in many cultures, why are white men being singled out here as targets for rhetoric and abuse?

I love you brainwashed capital L liberals, your knee-jerk reaction demonstrates you have no interest in the actual discussion, but rather see another opportunity to bash on the socialist target de jour.
 
My aunt told me that if she and my uncle had gotten divorced, my cousin could have gotten a completely free ride through college. Now, why people with divorced parents deserve more money for school than others, i don't know. You could easily have two very well off people who get divorced and can afford to put their kid(s) through college.
 
[quote name='camoor']Ahh yes, bringing race into a discussion where it doesn't belong.

Since when were minority men not male? Were we reading the same article? There is a crisis of good male role models in many cultures, why are white men being singled out here as targets for rhetoric and abuse?

I love you brainwashed capital L liberals, your knee-jerk reaction demonstrates you have no interest in the actual discussion, but rather see another opportunity to bash on the socialist target de jour.[/QUOTE]

In case you missed it: [quote name='mykevermin']Dudes need to learn what hegemony means.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='camoor']Ahh yes, bringing race into a discussion where it doesn't belong.[/quote]

I think the men vs women/minorities (and hence "men" means white men) was the second post in the thread. And posted by a conservative. Then there were the complaints about how hard it is to be a white male.

[quote name='camoor']Since when were minority men not male? Were we reading the same article? There is a crisis of good male role models in many cultures, why are white men being singled out here as targets for rhetoric and abuse?[/quote]

The guy who formed the group is white, Men's Rights was founded by a white guy, white men have the majority of power, etc. so I think my comment was valid and relevant. These types of groups come about when white men don't personally have any power and they start blaming women/minorities, when the people who have the power are actually other white men. Women and minorities generally blame white men when they are powerless (because white men have the majority of power).

Sure, it's a men's group, which can technically mean men of any color, but it usually doesn't, as it's usually a group formed as a reaction to affirmative action-type policies, which help women and minorities (who are both men and women).

The article didn't really say much about the particular group (or anything at all of any substance really), so sorry if I responded to "men's rights" groups in general rather than this particular one.
 
For all the people that are against affirmative action, did you forget the 400 years of slavery? That shit is supposed to be forgotten about after only 40 years of affirmative action? Did you forget the Trail of Tears? How about the 3/5 Compromise? Also, affirmative action doesn't bestow a degree on any minority. It just bestows a chance. I guess that's socialist and offensive though.

Let's get back to the real issue. Did anyone think that boys might be farther behind educationally because they're only encouraged to excel in sports? Ask a father what he wants his son to be and they'll always say NFL quarterback, race car driver, or left handed pitcher. On the other hand, there isn't a lucrative professional sports career unless you play tennis. Girls know they better get a degree because there isn't a chance in hell of making millions playing sports.
 
[quote name='depascal22']For all the people that are against affirmative action, did you forget the 400 years of slavery? That shit is supposed to be forgotten about after only 40 years of affirmative action? [/QUOTE]

It's hilarious to me how off topic some of these discussions can become. The initial post contained an article that discussed race in no way. Also, no one in the thread was railing against Affirmative Action. There were a few posts from people complaining about difficulty getting scholarships, but that was it.

I don't think anyone will forget the years of slavery and rightfully so. Although, it is such bullshit that modern day blacks frequently call out modern day whites for something NEITHER group had a role in. Are/were you a slave depascal22? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. You may have ancestors that were, but you aren't one of them. No one owes you anything based on race, gender or creed.

I am of Irish heritage. At one point in this country's history, Irish immigrants were treated terribly and made objects of ridicule. Should I demand reparations because my great grandfather was exploited and shit on? (fuck no.) Or should I just live my life and be accountable for where I ultimately end up? (Yes.) It'd be great if people actually earned things solely on merit.

fuck entitlement complexes. In the motherfucking pooper.
 
[quote name='depascal22']For all the people that are against affirmative action, did you forget the 400 years of slavery? That shit is supposed to be forgotten about after only 40 years of affirmative action? Did you forget the Trail of Tears? How about the 3/5 Compromise? Also, affirmative action doesn't bestow a degree on any minority. It just bestows a chance. I guess that's socialist and offensive though.[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol:

Are we going to start punishing the tribal leaders in Africa that sold the slaves to the slave traders? Everyone "deserves" a chance regardless of what happened to their ancestors. Like the above poster, I'm also Irish. My relatives were discriminated against and were made to be the butt of jokes, but do I sit here and whine about it? No. Were your parents slaves? Do you have any idea what it would be like to be a slave? No and no. Get over it. Stop using color as an excuse to have things handed out to people.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I think the men vs women/minorities (and hence "men" means white men) was the second post in the thread. And posted by a conservative. Then there were the complaints about how hard it is to be a white male.



The guy who formed the group is white, Men's Rights was founded by a white guy, white men have the majority of power, etc. so I think my comment was valid and relevant. These types of groups come about when white men don't personally have any power and they start blaming women/minorities, when the people who have the power are actually other white men. Women and minorities generally blame white men when they are powerless (because white men have the majority of power).

Sure, it's a men's group, which can technically mean men of any color, but it usually doesn't, as it's usually a group formed as a reaction to affirmative action-type policies, which help women and minorities (who are both men and women).

The article didn't really say much about the particular group (or anything at all of any substance really), so sorry if I responded to "men's rights" groups in general rather than this particular one.[/QUOTE]

I hate generalities.

The richest one percent of U.S. households now owns 34.3 percent of the nation's private wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 90 percent.
http://www.demos.org/inequality/numbers.cfm

The next 9% own another third of the wealth. So yes, there is a "hegemon". And yes, those people may be predominantly of one race and gender (I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet it's true). But the rest of the people with the same race and gender do not automatically belong to this exclusive club, and don't have any special wealth or power.

You want to keep Thurston Howe IV from collecting scholarship money - fine I also think there's no reason to subsidize the education of millionaires. But let's not forget that for every rich kid there's many children of all races and genders who could use that money to make a better life for themselves.

I'm all for empowering smart ethical capitalists with the education they need to take on the cartels and fraudsters who currently own wall street. Yet you guys, fighting over nonsense issues like race and gender, are ignoring the real issues and playing right into the hands of the power elite.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']:lol::lol::lol:

Are we going to start punishing the tribal leaders in Africa that sold the slaves to the slave traders? Everyone "deserves" a chance regardless of what happened to their ancestors. Like the above poster, I'm also Irish. My relatives were discriminated against and were made to be the butt of jokes, but do I sit here and whine about it? No. Were your parents slaves? Do you have any idea what it would be like to be a slave? No and no. Get over it. Stop using color as an excuse to have things handed out to people.[/QUOTE]

This isn't about Africa. Also, if you look hard enough there are scholarships for the Irish.

http://www.us-irelandalliance.org/wmspage.cfm?parm1=2
http://www.irishfest.com/aboutus/scholarships.php

I guess those don't count. Again, the Irish experience in America is in no way shape or form equivalent to the African experience. First of all, my ancestors were shackled and forced to come here. Second, they were beat severely for even thinking about walking away. Were the Irish forced to come here? Were you rounded up in Dublin and Belfast and then shackled in a ship for months with little food or water. No. Your people came here by choice and got made fun of. Oh no. A joke. That's completely equivalent to a lashing for not picking enough cotton or looking at a white woman. Tons of Irish were lynched on false accusations weren't they?

EDIT -- I agree with camoor that we should all be banding together to get those fat cats in Wall St and Capital Hill but there are problems with that. If there are no safeguards in place, whites will just continue to give money to other whites with little regard for minorities. This is still about giving Blacks and Indians a fair shot at the American Dream that was stolen away centuries ago. Yes, those wounds run deep and it takes a little more than 40 years of affirmative action to level the playing field. Then again, most of you dont' care about a level playing field. You're just pissed you didn't get the money.

True Story: My brother is a white country boy from Central Indiana. He qualified for a full scholarship to IU because of income. Color was never a consideration for the money. Maybe you guys need to stop bitching and actually do some work. Maybe middle class white boys are the new lower class black kids. Stop feeling entitled to money when you do absolutely no work to get it.
 
[quote name='depascal22']. First of all, my ancestors were shackled and forced to come here. Second, they were beat severely for even thinking about walking away.

True Story: My brother is a white country boy from Central Indiana. He qualified for a full scholarship to IU because of income. Color was never a consideration for the money. Maybe you guys need to stop bitching and actually do some work. Maybe middle class white boys are the new lower class black kids. Stop feeling entitled to money when you do absolutely no work to get it.[/QUOTE]

When you start with "first of all", you should start out with "First of all, my ancestors were shackled and beaten by rival tribal leaders who sold them to white slave traders."

I don't feel entitled to anything? I'm a white guy that was from Wisconsin that worked my butt off to put myself through school and to provide for my family. I don't see many whites that feel entitled to get money for no reason, I just see people that resent the fact that some people get money for the sole reason of the color of skin they had when they were born.
 
I'm not asking for money from African tribal leaders. Maybe you should start with "First of all, my ancestors put all their potatoes in one basket and couldn't figure out simple agricultural practices." They were too stupid to figure out you can't plant potatoes every year. My people were shackled and forced here. Yes, the tribal leaders are responsible but it's not like there were any black slave ship owners. I didn't read about any black auctioneers in New Orleans or Charleston but I guess it's all blacks faults we got in this mess.

You seem to forget that the position your family was in plays a huge factor in how successful you'll be in the future. Some people like yourself do work hard and move up but you dismiss the fact that until 40 years ago, Blacks weren't allowed to move up. Just because slavery is over and I haven't personally felt the sting of the lash doesn't mean that the long term effects of enslavement didn't affect my life.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm not asking for money from African tribal leaders. Maybe you should start with "First of all, my ancestors put all their potatoes in one basket and couldn't figure out simple agricultural practices." They were too stupid to figure out you can't plant potatoes every year. My people were shackled and forced here. Yes, the tribal leaders are responsible but it's not like there were any black slave ship owners. I didn't read about any black auctioneers in New Orleans or Charleston but I guess it's all blacks faults we got in this mess.

You seem to forget that the position your family was in plays a huge factor in how successful you'll be in the future. Some people like yourself do work hard and move up but you dismiss the fact that until 40 years ago, Blacks weren't allowed to move up. Just because slavery is over and I haven't personally felt the sting of the lash doesn't mean that the long term effects of enslavement didn't affect my life.[/QUOTE]

Do not take perd seriously, that will only encourage it.

Also this is for another thread but there is a book called about the potato famine called the "Great Hunger" by Cecil Woodham-Smith, read it.

I think something that should be pointed is that the Irish for example were not kept from serving during WWII the way black men were, as a demographic they were kept from receiving the benefits of the GI Bill that basically created the prosperity so many Americans used to enjoy.
 
the derailing of this thread has illustrated why UofC raised their eyebrows when this group was created. someone creates an orginization for the benefit of men and immediatly both sides turn it into an arguement over race, affirmitive action, wealth etc. when all its meant to do is help regular men get ahead.
 
Anything done to benefit "regular men" would be derided as communism by fools like bmul et al within three minutes.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm not asking for money from African tribal leaders. Maybe you should start with "First of all, my ancestors put all their potatoes in one basket and couldn't figure out simple agricultural practices." They were too stupid to figure out you can't plant potatoes every year.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure that calling the Irish stupid potato eaters is the best way to prove that only black people are discriminated against.
 
[quote name='camoor']But the rest of the people with the same race and gender do not automatically belong to this exclusive club, and don't have any special wealth or power.[/quote]

While white men benefit from being white and male, they don't all benefit equally. Or maybe you'd rather it be worded that while not all minorities and women are discriminated against equally, they are all at a detriment.

[quote name='camoor']You want to keep Thurston Howe IV from collecting scholarship money - fine I also think there's no reason to subsidize the education of millionaires. But let's not forget that for every rich kid there's many children of all races and genders who could use that money to make a better life for themselves.[/quote]

"I can't get a scholarship because I'm white and male" is pretty cliche, but it's not all that valid. I got a half-tuition scholarship based on merit and some need-based grants, white penis and all.

Here's something more accurate: If you're white, male and unexceptional, then you probably won't be getting any scholarships. You'll probably just earn more money and have more job opportunities than a comparable female/minority.

[quote name='camoor']I'm all for empowering smart ethical capitalists with the education they need to take on the cartels and fraudsters who currently own wall street. Yet you guys, fighting over nonsense issues like race and gender, are ignoring the real issues and playing right into the hands of the power elite.[/QUOTE]

You can't fix problems without recognizing and calling attention to them. Barriers based on economics, race, and gender are all problems.
 
[quote name='depascal22']This isn't about Africa. Also, if you look hard enough there are scholarships for the Irish.

http://www.us-irelandalliance.org/wmspage.cfm?parm1=2
http://www.irishfest.com/aboutus/scholarships.php
[/QUOTE]
That's nothing there are scholarships for everything I don't see a little box on college applications to be ticked if you are Irish.
[quote name='depascal22']
I guess those don't count. Again, the Irish experience in America is in no way shape or form equivalent to the African experience. First of all, my ancestors were shackled and forced to come here. Second, they were beat severely for even thinking about walking away. Were the Irish forced to come here? Were you rounded up in Dublin and Belfast and then shackled in a ship for months with little food or water. [/QUOTE]
Actually they where, Irish and Scottish slaves where in America before black slaves where. Many time's the are referred to as indentured servants, but most of them where kidnapped, they faced worse treatment than blacks (50% died within the first 2 years of service) and although the duration of their enslavement was supposed to before 7-10 years many times this was ignored.

[quote name='depascal22']
True Story: My brother is a white country boy from Central Indiana. He qualified for a full scholarship to IU because of income. Color was never a consideration for the money. Maybe you guys need to stop bitching and actually do some work. Maybe middle class white boys are the new lower class black kids. Stop feeling entitled to money when you do absolutely no work to get it.[/QUOTE]
Great my friend was white got 4.0 in high school and college got 1350 SAT family made under $30,000 and never got dime.
 
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[quote name='camoor']I'm not sure that calling the Irish stupid potato eaters is the best way to prove that only black people are discriminated against.[/QUOTE]

Haha. :applause:
 
[quote name='depascal22']Just because slavery is over and I haven't personally felt the sting of the lash doesn't mean that the long term effects of enslavement didn't affect my life.[/QUOTE]

So when does all of this come to end? When will enough time have passed and enough money/opportunity been provided to stop this bullshit? I understand the anger to a degree because the enslavement (and the more recent restriction of civil liberties) of African Americans is despicable.

But dude -- the second order of the Emancipation Proclamation was issued on January 1, 1863! Anybody that ever played a role in slavery in America is LONG dead. The animosity and resentment that you and others seem to harbor against whites is borderline insane. As I said a few posts up, NEITHER modern blacks or whites had a part in slavery...thankfully.

Why don't we continue to let something that ended nearly 150 years ago remain a divisive force between us? That's productive, right?

Camoor was totally on target when he said that the power elite (the people that really threaten and control us) prefers that we be distracted and squabble about shit like this.


DISCLAIMER: Just to be absolutely clear...I am in no way minimizing any of the hardships that came after the freeing of slaves. The issue you brought up was strictly slavery, so I am just addressing that.
 
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[quote name='neschamp']So when does all of this come to end?[/quote]

Eventually?

When will enough time have passed and enough money/opportunity been provided to stop this bullshit?

What bullshit?

I understand the anger to a degree because the enslavement (and the more recent restriction of civil liberties) of African Americans is despicable.

Do you?

But dude -- the second order of the Emancipation Proclamation was issued on January 1, 1863! Anybody that ever played a role in slavery in America is LONG dead. The animosity and resentment that you and others seem to harbor against whites is borderline insane. As I said a few posts up, NEITHER modern blacks or whites had a part in slavery...thankfully.

Why don't we continue to let something that ended nearly 150 years ago remain a divisive force between us? That's productive, right?

You have a little disclaimer at the end where you claim not to be arguing what you are arguing so let is skip this nonsense.

Camoor was totally on target when he said that the power elite (the people that really threaten and control us) prefers that we be distracted and squabble about shit like this.

Camoor has a hard on for these types of topics, to the point where he acts staggeringly dishonest.

DISCLAIMER: Just to be absolutely clear...I am in no way minimizing any of the hardships that came after the freeing of slaves. The issue you brought up was strictly slavery, so I am just addressing that.

Everyone realizes what you are doing even though it isn't for the reason you state. You have nothing to "argue" unless you pretend that there is no relationship between the two and there is no rhetorical question to cover your ass.
 
Msut77, I think it is pretty funny when people take the time to tell me my intentions for doing something (especially in cases where they know nothing about me). Since you seemed to miss the point of my post and instead chose to pick apart my post in an effort to villainize me --- I'll try one more time to explain what I meant.

You glossed over the most important question in my entire post because you were too busy trying to tell me off. "So when does all of this come to an end?" It is a totally legitimate question. I would be happy to know that there will be a time when the playing field will be leveled to the point that the sins of the past can just stay in the past. At what point would depascal22 feel duly compensated for "400 years of slavery"? He obviously thinks that "only 40 years of Affirmative Action" isn't nearly enough.

I think it is bullshit that slavery continues to create tension/animosity/anger/resentment between blacks and whites. Ideally, we could live and interact without this black cloud hanging overhead. It's an issue that creates a figurative battleground in which people pick sides. I find it silly to be at odds over something no one has even had the opportunity to have a personal stake in.

A few posters seemed to be pissed about missing out on scholarship money which they thought was due to being white. That obviously bothered depascal22 and he went off about Affirmative Action and slavery. No one was talking about either of those things until he took the conversation that direction. I'll admit that is a somewhat annoying to read/hear people whine about anything, but it wasn't offensive to read a few posts where people complained about missing out on free money for school.

It is a little ridiculous that a few comments about scholarship money turned the thread into a more negative (off topic) discussion about race relations. People continually choose to let slavery have a negative impact on the way we interact today - even in simple ways as in this thread. That is really sad because there is nothing to be done about it now.
 
I hear he didn't do so hot at Columbia (GPA < 3.3) but then got accepted into Harvard Law (one of, if not The school with the lowest acceptance rate). Can you prove me wrong? I don't think you can because as long as A.A. is here, people will continue undermine the "achievements" of those who "diversify" student classes.
 
Meanwhile, we acknowledge that discrimination exists in this world in terms of acceptance, hiring, promotion, etc. - and assume that only minorities are the ones who benefit from such perks?

I.e., George Bush got where he did, and avoided what he did, because of his intelligence and hard work. Because he's white, and therefore had greater barriers to overcome to attend Yale.

:cool:
 
[quote name='tivo']I hear he didn't do so hot at Columbia (GPA < 3.3) but then got accepted into Harvard Law (one of, if not The school with the lowest acceptance rate). Can you prove me wrong? I don't think you can because as long as A.A. is here, people will continue undermine the "achievements" of those who "diversify" student classes.[/QUOTE]

Even if that were true, and which you haven't presented any evidence, it seems he did well while he was at Harvard, so they still made the correct selection. Do you happen to know what criteria their acceptance was at Harvard, because I certainly don't. I'm sure not everyone who gets in there has a 4.0 gpa, I'm also pretty sure that they base their selections on many other criteria.
 
Its true that affirmative action hurts poor whites and Asians. And while I'd prefer to refocus or completely remove A.A., alternatives like the groups in the OP are good- as they aim to help those many people who are hurt by group preference policies. A.A., regardless of the magnitude in affecting Obamas' life, allows people to undermine many of his and others' "achievements" as exhibited above. I say we remove A.A. and then there wont be a need for groups like MiP.
 
But you (1) haven't demonstrated that Obama benefited from AA, and (2) by proposing the removal of such policies, ignore the fact that the removal of what you call "preference policies" puts into place the default preference policy: that is, discrimination against nonwhites and females.

Not having a codified "preference policy" doesn't mean you won't have preferences. And those preferences aren't gone when AA policies are in place, hombre.

:cool:

(how many people on the face of the planet really have an idea how AA works, since everybody makes the incredibly incorrect error of thinking it's a "minorities get in free" card?)
 
[quote name='tivo']Its true that affirmative action hurts poor whites and Asians. And while I'd prefer to refocus or completely remove A.A., alternatives like the groups in the OP are good- as they aim to help those many people who are hurt by group preference policies. A.A., regardless of the magnitude in affecting Obamas' life, allows people to undermine many of his and others' "achievements" as exhibited above. I say we remove A.A. and then there wont be a need for groups like MiP.[/QUOTE]

hurts whites relative to what? it's hard to say what their innate ability warrants as it's impossible to exclude societal effects (differences in opportunity, the effect of discrimination on achievement, etc).

in sectors with AA the number of minorities/disadvantaged are still usually far below that of the general population, which makes it very tough to say well-to-do whites are at any sort of disadvantage. the apparent disadvantage may rather be just a step toward equalizing the playing field, accounting for the advantage they had by being born to well-to-do parents.

i'm not a big fan of AA, just playing devils advocate.. though i'll benefit when applying to law school since i'm first in my family to attend college and come from a poor family. it's amazing how many college students, especially at better schools and graduate / professional schools, come from higher end backgrounds... parents who are doctors / businesspeople / lawyers / whatever.. is it genetics? maybe, but seems more like it's the socioeconomic advantage
 
bread's done
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