'Power' move by male students ruffles University of Chicago

[quote name='tivo']Its true that affirmative action hurts poor whites and Asians. And while I'd prefer to refocus or completely remove A.A., alternatives like the groups in the OP are good- as they aim to help those many people who are hurt by group preference policies. A.A., regardless of the magnitude in affecting Obamas' life, allows people to undermine many of his and others' "achievements" as exhibited above. I say we remove A.A. and then there wont be a need for groups like MiP.[/QUOTE]

Dude, what the fuck. You need to explain yourself with the "affirmative action hurts poor whites and Asians." I'm pretty sure I'm Asian and it has NEVER hurt me. I could see maybe if you were middle class white, but what you said makes no sense whatsoever.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Great my friend was white got 4.0 in high school and college got 1350 SAT family made under $30,000 and never got dime.[/QUOTE]
He was eligible for the Pell Grant at the very least. Or was filling out paperwork for free money too difficult for a 4.0 1350?

Bullshit troll is bullshit.
 
I like how pretty much this thread has just become a bunch of (mostly, if not all, male..?) CAGs arguing with each other. Wouldn't the point of the Men In Power group be to unite people like all of us and help all of us succeed? As far as we know, race doesn't matter. Hell, the article even mentioned that some women joined the group. If anything, they are the ones who we should be arguing against!

But no, the guy who's ancestors picked cotton for whitey needs to argue with the guy who's ancestors were too stupid enough to farm potatoes properly. Why do I even mention this? BECAUSE EVERY RACE HAS HAD ISSUES IN THE PAST AND EVEN THE PRESENT, AND THERE STILL WILL BE ISSUES IN THE FUTURE, WHETHER THEY WERE SELF IMPOSED OR BROUGHT ONTO THEM! Honestly, you guys need to get over what's happened in your people's pasts. Live in the present.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Live in the present, where racism and discrimination no longer occur. Right?

Right?

Right?

:wall:[/QUOTE]

Myke, isn't the biggest issue with affirmative action the racism and discrimation it may create?

If you listen to Clarence Thomas, you are led to believe that qualified minor candidates aren't judged by their merits, but rather whether they help meet a quota within a company/organization/institution.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
 
[quote name='speedracer']He was eligible for the Pell Grant at the very least. Or was filling out paperwork for free money too difficult for a 4.0 1350?

Bullshit troll is bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Actually he applied to for need based scholarships, but since he was an only child he was told his parent's made to much(this was 12 years ago).
Go have a period somewhere else please.



 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Actually he applied to for need based scholarships, but since he was an only child he was told his parent's made to much(this was 12 years ago).
Go have a period somewhere else please.



[/QUOTE]

Eh, he should've gone to a different school then. Plenty of my white friends had scholarships and didn't nearly have those type of scores.
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']Myke, isn't the biggest issue with affirmative action the racism and discrimation it may create?[/quote]

No. In my view, it just helps people justify the racism they already possess. People can "switch on" their racist attitudes fairly easily and quickly - discussing it in terms of AA gives people the ability to talk like a racist and think like a racist without possessing the guilt of feeling like a racist. Because we justify it.

As you say, we're damned if we do and also if we don't. So you more or less acknowledge that inherent truth.

Plus it also speaks to the power of racism that benefits whites not being something many of us consider a problem. It's worse, to those of you who disagree with AA policies, that minorities AND whites end up in positions of power and status, and thus preferable to have no formal policy in place - the social structure where only whites get ahead due to race.

That's ok!?!?!

If you listen to Clarence Thomas, you are led to believe that qualified minor candidates aren't judged by their merits, but rather whether they help meet a quota within a company/organization/institution.

Why would I listen to Clarence Thomas, however?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']No. In my view, it just helps people justify the racism they already possess. People can "switch on" their racist attitudes fairly easily and quickly - discussing it in terms of AA gives people the ability to talk like a racist and think like a racist without possessing the guilt of feeling like a racist. Because we justify it.

As you say, we're damned if we do and also if we don't. So you more or less acknowledge that inherent truth.

Plus it also speaks to the power of racism that benefits whites not being something many of us consider a problem. It's worse, to those of you who disagree with AA policies, that minorities AND whites end up in positions of power and status, and thus preferable to have no formal policy in place - the social structure where only whites get ahead due to race.

That's ok!?!?![/QUOTE]

Despite a little spin this is the same old arguement, you either agree that entitlement programs are a net positive for society or you're the r-word. Because anyone using reason couldn't possibly come to the conclusion that entitlement programs aren't anything but the best thing for society. Why bother arguing the issue when you can paint anyone who disagrees with you with a vile ad-hominem.
 
[quote name='camoor']Despite a little spin this is the same old arguement, you either agree that entitlement programs are a net positive for society or you're the r-word. Because anyone using reason couldn't possibly come to the conclusion that entitlement programs aren't anything but the best thing for society. Why bother arguing the issue when you can paint anyone who disagrees with you with a vile ad-hominem.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, pretty much.
 
[quote name='camoor']Despite a little spin this is the same old arguement, you either agree that entitlement programs are a net positive for society or you're the r-word. Because anyone using reason couldn't possibly come to the conclusion that entitlement programs aren't anything but the best thing for society. Why bother arguing the issue when you can paint anyone who disagrees with you with a vile ad-hominem.[/QUOTE]

Your idea of racist and my idea of racist don't jive. Racism is, to me, permitting an unequal social order to exist because its foundation lies on some quasi-noble idea like "government noninterference." As if to suggest any government interference, for any reason, is a necessarily bad thing. I suppose that's a reasonable approach to trusting the power of government, but as a political philosophy, it's post-hoc and inherently flawed. It's not really a philosophy, but rather a hue that you've tinted your eyeglasses to.

But back to racism, it's easy to be personally affronted by the "r-word" if you're naive enough to think that, when I speak of racism, it necessarily means you're a hood-wearing, confederate flag waving, get-out-of-town-darkie saying, Lou Dobbs sympathizing hee-haw.

When I say racism, I mean that, but I also mean the benign attitude that, when confronted with the REALITY of racism inherent in not just our society, but in our economy, permeating our free market, and interfering with this noble idea of a meritocracy, it is disregarded as insignificant, as silly, as not something to worry about.

Sorry if it's not lynching, or burning crosses, or the sort of thing that makes for good photographs and melancholy Billie Holiday songs. But it is racism just the same, and the flippant disregard of the existence of racism, with the focus turned towards making sure the government doesn't do something to interfere with your white privilege (though delicately covered under the mask of a noble ideology, and not favoring continuing racism), doesn't have to involve murdered bodies to be harmful to society.

When I say "hey, guess what - large, patterned discrimination in hiring, firing, wages, and promotion still exist - and, in fact, white felons stand better chances in the job market than equally qualified blacks with no criminal history whatsoever!" - and your reaction is to be concerned about whether or not the government DOES SOMETHING about it?

That, my friend, is fucking racism. It's good old, covert, cover-my-ass-with-the-american-flag-and-capitalism racism. Wanting to continue a system teeming with racism just because it's no longera burning cross on someone's lawn? That, again, my friend, is racism.

So, yes, you are racist. I'm sure you don't think so, and you may try to bleat out some trite response about your allegiance to society and the economy, and not the government. That doesn't change, in the slightest, that your viewpoint, as of right now, advocates a return to pro-white, anti-black policies - and is therefore racist.

How do you propose establishing a genuine meritocracy (at least a reasonable one, where nepotism and class-based discrimination occur, and where race/ethnicity-based discrimination do not occur)?

Would you let the "free market" come to this conclusion? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Or are you uninterested in a genuine meritocracy since, as a white male, your position and opportunities are bolstered by the existence of discrimination? So when you find yourself doing well in the world at some point, you can kick back on your desk and think to yourself how hard you worked, and how it was your effort that got you where you are. Not, mind you, the fact that you weren't discriminated against because you happened to be white.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Your idea of racist and my idea of racist don't jive. Racism is, to me, permitting an unequal social order to exist because its foundation lies on some quasi-noble idea like "government noninterference." As if to suggest any government interference, for any reason, is a necessarily bad thing. I suppose that's a reasonable approach to trusting the power of government, but as a political philosophy, it's post-hoc and inherently flawed. It's not really a philosophy, but rather a hue that you've tinted your eyeglasses to.

But back to racism, it's easy to be personally affronted by the "r-word" if you're naive enough to think that, when I speak of racism, it necessarily means you're a hood-wearing, confederate flag waving, get-out-of-town-darkie saying, Lou Dobbs sympathizing hee-haw.

When I say racism, I mean that, but I also mean the benign attitude that, when confronted with the REALITY of racism inherent in not just our society, but in our economy, permeating our free market, and interfering with this noble idea of a meritocracy, it is disregarded as insignificant, as silly, as not something to worry about.

Sorry if it's not lynching, or burning crosses, or the sort of thing that makes for good photographs and melancholy Billie Holiday songs. But it is racism just the same, and the flippant disregard of the existence of racism, with the focus turned towards making sure the government doesn't do something to interfere with your white privilege (though delicately covered under the mask of a noble ideology, and not favoring continuing racism), doesn't have to involve murdered bodies to be harmful to society.

When I say "hey, guess what - large, patterned discrimination in hiring, firing, wages, and promotion still exist - and, in fact, white felons stand better chances in the job market than equally qualified blacks with no criminal history whatsoever!" - and your reaction is to be concerned about whether or not the government DOES SOMETHING about it?

That, my friend, is fucking racism. It's good old, covert, cover-my-ass-with-the-american-flag-and-capitalism racism. Wanting to continue a system teeming with racism just because it's no longera burning cross on someone's lawn? That, again, my friend, is racism.

So, yes, you are racist. I'm sure you don't think so, and you may try to bleat out some trite response about your allegiance to society and the economy, and not the government. That doesn't change, in the slightest, that your viewpoint, as of right now, advocates a return to pro-white, anti-black policies - and is therefore racist.

How do you propose establishing a genuine meritocracy (at least a reasonable one, where nepotism and class-based discrimination occur, and where race/ethnicity-based discrimination do not occur)?

Would you let the "free market" come to this conclusion? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Or are you uninterested in a genuine meritocracy since, as a white male, your position and opportunities are bolstered by the existence of discrimination? So when you find yourself doing well in the world at some point, you can kick back on your desk and think to yourself how hard you worked, and how it was your effort that got you where you are. Not, mind you, the fact that you weren't discriminated against because you happened to be white.[/QUOTE]

I just love it when ivory tower dilettantes wax philosophic about what happens in the corporate world.

I suppose your thesis explains why corporations are falling all over themselves paying huge immigration fees to bring in talent from other countries, whether this talent comes from Asia, Africa, Russia, or South America. I suppose this is why outsourcing is such a huge push for corporations in the present day. I suppose this is why illegal immigrants are willing to go to such insane lengths to get into America in hopes of landing a job. Many corporations may not make social justice a top priority but they do care about the bottom line, and making hiring decisions based on how someone looks is no good for the bottom line.
 
In the face of data, retort with a broad, anecdotal brush.

There's nothing philosophical about it. Sorry if you are too scared to handle the empirical reality of the world we live in.

And your attempt at establishing parallels b/w antiblack discrimination and outsourcing fervor is a false equivalency that certainly even permeated your thick skull. Yet you decided to post it anyway. For shame.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']In the face of data, retort with a broad, anecdotal brush.

There's nothing philosophical about it. Sorry if you are too scared to handle the empirical reality of the world we live in.

And your attempt at establishing parallels b/w antiblack discrimination and outsourcing fervor is a false equivalency that certainly even permeated your thick skull. Yet you decided to post it anyway. For shame.[/QUOTE]

Your Orwellian conception of racism is the kind of self-fulfilling nonsense that kept charlatans such as Al Sharpton in business all these years.

Something that enlightened me was the busing reform. A black American dating from 20s Harlem was explaining that over time the black people in that area had built a community and a nuturing school system, and forced busing destroyed alot of that community, that social network (as a policy much of affirmative action has been a great example of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you"). These ham-fisted govt attempts at forcing even racial percentages along the different classes, even when made with the best intentions, never really work. A country that goes from a horrible civil rights record to electing a racially-mixed President in less then a century - that is what does work.

How can you explain that immigrants from the Carribean, Africa, or South America don't have a harder time finding employment then any other immigrant. African immigrants in highschool have a much higher rate of graduation then the national average. Maybe the problem is that most black Americans happen to be poor, and poor people get a raw deal in America. Maybe we could begin straightforward reforms to fix real problems instead of elaborate unworkable solutions aimed at fixing rapidly vanishing problems, problems that exist largely in the past.
 
Log in page kills argument. ;)

EDIT: Found a log in from bug me not. Pretty pointless, doesn't really add anything to your argument.
 
[quote name='evanft']Log in page kills argument. ;)

EDIT: Found a log in from bug me not. Pretty pointless, doesn't really add anything to your argument.[/QUOTE]

You would say that.
 
Evanft, you're so fucking internet it hurts.

Camoor, critic of all and supporter of none, I ask you again: how do we work towards a more genuine meritocracy?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You've no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Again, stop your false equivalency.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/us/07baltimore.html?_r=4&hp

Racism is dead! Long live racism![/QUOTE]

That's pretty awful, but you really can't convince me of your arguement based on the actions of a group of sociopathic criminals. I've seen too many other groups targeted as well, whether it be the Enron tapes of traders laughing about stealing money from poor "grandma Millie" or Madoff smirking about hoodwinking rabbis and stealing billions from their religous followers. I willingly concede that predatory sociopaths and organized crime elements are often discriminatory (whether it be based on race, age, or religion).

[quote name='mykevermin']Evanft, you're so fucking internet it hurts.

Camoor, critic of all and supporter of none, I ask you again: how do we work towards a more genuine meritocracy?[/QUOTE]

Oh that's a whole different topic isn't it. I suggest giving some teeth to the regulatory bodies that are supposed to be refereeing wall street. Empower shareholders, compensate workers fairly, fix the healthcare system, eliminate the tax benefits of offshoring and tax-sheltering essentially American companies, and break up the executive collusion that is widening the obscene gap between the executive class and the working class. For a start... :D
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Evanft, you're so fucking internet it hurts.[/QUOTE]

I do what I can, when I can. Being a tough guy is a full-time job. :cool:
 
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