PS3 to retail for $399, cost $494 to make

dafoomie

dafoomie

CAGiversary!
Feedback
39 (100%)
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/28/news_6128295.html
(I don't think this was a repost, I searched)

Ouch. A price drop by 360 the day of the PS3 launch would be absolutely devastating, if this holds up. Sony might be a little too ambitious, Blu-Ray will cost them a lot of money for little gain, the Cell will cost a lot of money for probably not a lot of actual gain.

I hope its not true though, I don't plan on spending $399 on the PS3. I was really hoping to pick one up on launch.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/28/news_6128295.html
(I don't think this was a repost, I searched)

Ouch. A price drop by 360 the day of the PS3 launch would be absolutely devastating, if this holds up. Sony might be a little too ambitious, Blu-Ray will cost them a lot of money for little gain, the Cell will cost a lot of money for probably not a lot of actual gain.

I hope its not true though, I don't plan on spending $399 on the PS3. I was really hoping to pick one up on launch.[/QUOTE]

while i never would pick a system up at launch, the next-gen games just look fucking amazing....ive always hated looking at the next-gen games because i dont want to be sucked in and HAVE to buy a system with the ridiculous launch prices...but goddamn, who knows what'll happen when the time comes...if i have a spare $500, i could very well drop that much on a next gen system (if they were to even cost that much)

but you're right, that would definitely be the smartest move for Microsoft....it would also probably give them my money first, though ive always been loyal to Sony
 
These analysis & prediction companies don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Whatever price the 360 launches at, count on the PS3 to match. Sony knows better.
 
[quote name='argyle']These analysis & prediction companies don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Whatever price the 360 launches at, count on the PS3 to match. Sony knows better.[/QUOTE]
Toyo Keizai is pretty well respected... If they say its $399, plus other sources say its $399, then it might just be $399. If the cost analysis is accurate at all, they would never sell for $299 and take a $200 loss on each unit. But, they could be overestimating the costs for each component.

Even if PS3 launches for the same price that 360 launches at, MS could still do a price drop on the same day, which would be a big deal. If PS3 launched at $100 more, and then 360 did a price drop on top of that, it would be crippling.
 
Can't wait for my xbox360. (I'll prolly get flamed for this) But this generation I bought Playstation 2 and gamecube at launch. Got xbox at the first bundle ($199.99 and Jetset radio and some sega crap racing game), Playstation 2 by far was my least favorite system. I think it was so over hyped. The ONLY reason I am happy with my playstation to is Final Fantasy 10 and the Time Crisis franchise. Other than those 3 games I don't own any. Xbox by far was my favorite this generation. To be honest I loved playstation got it on launch day, thats why i caved for the ps2... The ps2 let me down, personally, and sony wont see my buisness until their system is atleast $150(if the ps3 can ever afford to go that price). I hope microsoft and nintendo takes some of the huge market share this generation....We all know nintendo won't,,, Their hardware specs looks just for the casual gamer. They only way to go this generation is up for nintendo tho. I still liked their gamecube (only with friends). Gamecube is a party system, xbox has great games, graphics, xbox live, and ps2 ONLY has rpg's. PS2 is so @#$%@#%@ over rated.


XBOX 360!!!! down with PS3!!!!
 
[quote name='JSK414']Oh, and did I mention... GO XBOX 360!!!! DOWN WITH PS3!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Yes, you said this during your last post. :bomb:

I sure hope this isn't Sony's launch price for the PS3. If this is the launch price, it could take longer for it to drop, which means it will be longer for me to get one. At that price, I wouldn't consider buying one, unless it launches with some amazing games (doubtful). Thankfully, I have a backlog of games to beat until then.
 
According to the latest issue of Japanese magazine Toyo Keizai, Merrill Lynch Japan Securities has recently calculated an analysis that the production of a single PlayStation 3 console will cost Sony approximately 54,000 yen to make ($494), as of its initial release in 2006.


Merrill Lynch Japan estimates that the machine's main components--namely its Cell chip, RSX, and BD-ROM drive--will cost about 11,000 yen ($101) each. After adding the other electronics that will be used in the PS3, the machine's production cost goes up to 54,000 yen.

Merrill Lynch estimates are the only source, I prefer to get my pricing news from the company actually making the console.
 
Microsoft's move will completely destroy Sony's hopes of ever making money on the PS3 because we've all seen what the Gamecube did to the PS2 and Xbox by having a lower price.
 
If the cost estimates are true ($494 roughly), and the article estimates that Sony could take in a $100 loss per unit sold (if they launch at $399), they could be in a bad position.

The article claims this:
[quote name='gamespot']Given that Sony's PS3 will face stiff competition from Microsoft's Xbox 360, the chances that Sony will release its console at its production cost is slim. Under the assumption that the Xbox 360 is expected to sell at around $299, Merrill Lynch Japan predicts that Sony will sell each PS3 at the price of 44,800 yen ($410) in Japan and $399 in America. That would mean Sony would suffer a loss of more than 130 billion yen ($1.18 billion) during the first year of the PS3's release.[/quote]

Now, at $101 loss per unit, they'd have to sell 10 million units within one year to accumulate a $1 Billion loss. I have no idea how easily Sony could sell 10 million units (even if they were reasonably priced). In other words, I don't have the data about how fast other consoles have reached 10 million from release date. This loss speculation is also contingent upon people buying up a $399 PS3 en masse. With the cost of the machine, as well as the potential format war (between Sony and Toshiba), this might cause a great problem for consumers. Blu-Ray is wonderful conceptually, but it needs broader support than simply game manufacturers, IMO, in order to sell a $399 console to people - developers have barely scratched the surface with multi-DVD titles, so I'm not certain why Sony needs to jump to a new format with uncertain support (even if they *are* Sony), driving up the costs.

If the system does cost $494, don't expect to see Sony sell it for $299; a $200 loss per unit would lead to a $1 Billion loss within the sales of 5 million units. At that price point, they'll sell that many much faster than they would at $399, and reach their loss point in half the sales.

myke.
...I'll do what I always do; buy the software that I want, and then purchase the system at the time of its first major price drop.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Toyo Keizai is pretty well respected... If they say its $399, plus other sources say its $399, then it might just be $399. If the cost analysis is accurate at all, they would never sell for $299 and take a $200 loss on each unit. But, they could be overestimating the costs for each component.[/QUOTE]

Especially since Sony developed AND manufactures Blu-Ray, and owns exclusive rights. They don't have to pay a liscense fee on the technology.
They get it at the cost of the materials and labor (because they don't have to buy it from anyone, they make it themselves), probably under $20 each.

The Cell, codeveloped by IBM and Sony, probably under the assumption that Sony would get a huge discount on the chips for PS3s.

To suggest that Sony would have to pay the street price for every component, even those they made themselves, is simply outrageous.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']According to the latest issue of Japanese magazine Toyo Keizai, Merrill Lynch Japan Securities has recently calculated an analysis that the production of a single PlayStation 3 console will cost Sony approximately 54,000 yen to make ($494), as of its initial release in 2006.


Merrill Lynch Japan estimates that the machine's main components--namely its Cell chip, RSX, and BD-ROM drive--will cost about 11,000 yen ($101) each. After adding the other electronics that will be used in the PS3, the machine's production cost goes up to 54,000 yen.

Merrill Lynch estimates are the only source, I prefer to get my pricing news from the company actually making the console.[/QUOTE]

And I'm sure Gamespot would have too, but do you honestly think Sony is going to come right out and say how much the PS3 costs them to make and how much they plan to sell it this early? Please.
 
[quote name='gregthomas77']Is it just me or is there anyone else who would like all 3 next gen systems succeed so I can have the best gaming experience possible?[/QUOTE]

It's not just you, no. While I hate Sony, I hate MS about as much, but I love games. Can't hate on Nintendo, no matter how much I try. :)
I can't wait to see what all 3 offer.
 
Down to the point! I have never paided over $399 for a core system at launch... and I'm sure 90% of the gamer out there wouldn't... even $299.99 is pushing it! but I look for discount all over the place.


and metal gear solid 4 isn't a a good enuff reason for me to shell out $500 for a system w/ 1 game plus a memory card... remember.. no-pack-in harddrive...

Things are just looking brighter & brighter for the XBOX 360...
As much as I love sony... They can't stay on top forever...
 
I was so sold by the PS3 E3 showing, if I had to cut off my left foot for one, I'd strongly consider it. I'd happily pay $399 for that badass machine.
 
[quote name='Spoon_si']Down to the point! I have never paided over $399 for a core system at launch... and I'm sure 90% of the gamer out there wouldn't... even $299.99 is pushing it! but I look for discount all over the place.


and metal gear solid 4 isn't a a good enuff reason for me to shell out $500 for a system w/ 1 game plus a memory card... remember.. no-pack-in harddrive...

Things are just looking brighter & brighter for the XBOX 360...
As much as I love sony... They can't stay on top forever...[/QUOTE]

Paided? :lol:
 
Legions of PSone/PS2 fanboys will eagerly pay $100+ over the price of 360 to get a PS3, so I don't think Sony has to worry about coming in at a reasonable price to move its new systems.

Microsoft had much better hardware this generation (and subsidized it at a loss per system sold), and yet PS2 easily outsold Xbox with weaker hardware at the same price point. All most of the casual gamers care about is the "Playstation" name, so I don't think it will matter how Sony prices the PS3.

With Xbox 360 being weaker hardware than PS3, most gamers are going to expect a lower price anyway the way Gamecube undercut the current systems.
 
PS3 at $399 and taking a loss? I think Sony could be putting the $399 cost out as a feeler. Remember Microsoft cried it was taking a big loss on it's xbox but they somehow survived and are still in the business. I tend to believe when it comes down blow by blow we'd be seeing a cost of $299 for the 360 and PS3.

Think about this. They can probably charge 40 or 50 for additional controllers because they are wireless. Then you need at least 1 memory card for the PS3 and they could charge 30 for that as well. Each of these don't costs too much to make and there is a high turnaround in profit there.

I don't think we can bash either system yet. I am extremly impressed in the graphic powers in such a short time for both systems and I am very excited for this winter and the 360.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Especially since Sony developed AND manufactures Blu-Ray, and owns exclusive rights. They don't have to pay a liscense fee on the technology.
They get it at the cost of the materials and labor (because they don't have to buy it from anyone, they make it themselves), probably under $20 each.

The Cell, codeveloped by IBM and Sony, probably under the assumption that Sony would get a huge discount on the chips for PS3s.

To suggest that Sony would have to pay the street price for every component, even those they made themselves, is simply outrageous.[/QUOTE]

If a highend Pentium 4 sells on the street for well over 200, is it that crazy that a new very specialized CPU costs 100 to Sony? I'm sure the street price on a Cell Processor would probably be above the total cost of the PS3.
 
[quote name='gregthomas77']Is it just me or is there anyone else who would like all 3 next gen systems succeed so I can have the best gaming experience possible?[/QUOTE]

I'm with you man! I do think that a $400 price point coupled with a XBox 360 price drop and Halo 3 release would be pretty damaging for the PS3. I am hoping Sony blindsides all the analysts and releases the system at $300. I think it would be foolish to launch at a price much higher than the 360 despite what they might be losing on each system.
 
I believe the outcome will be the same as last generation.

1. PS3
2. Xbox 360
3. Nintendo Revolution

This industry is riddled with fanboys, and the one thing that is least likely to happen is change.

And of course only Nintendo will make a profit on it's consoles, as usual.
 
Wasn't Sony still making money with the ps2 at $200? I wonder if this takes into account the fact that Sony produces its own components... Microsoft was losing so much money per unit because they bought all third party materials and slapped them together. Sony makes its own parts how they need them, when they need them.

I'd be really surprised to see it launch at $400 if the Xbox is $300. Sony isn't stupid. They've been in the hardware business for 20-30 years (?). 10 of that with consoles. They trumphed Sega twice and they came out on top this gen. They have a lot of steam which could ( :lol:... could... :roll: ) make them arrogant, but they also have experience, which will make them smart.

So far Microsoft has just been bulldozing through things. If they can't beat it, they buy it out. They aren't used to being competitive. 400 for an OS? $70 for a mouse? Maybe they learned something last gen, or maybe not... only time will tell how this plays out.


As for JSK414, the reason a lot of people like the PS2 is because of its strong RPG pool. Just because you may not like the genre doesn't mean the system itself is horrible. Additionally, saying the PS2 is only for RPGs is almost as ignorant as saying the Gamecube is only for kids.
 
It's looking more and more that the MS/Sony conflict will be similar to the Sega/Nintendo battle of the early 90s. Nintendo was dominating the industry with an 'inferior' product, with the NES having a much higher installed userbase to the more powerful Master System. Next generation Sega launched before Nintendo with the Genesis, that was pretty much on par with the SNES (maybe SLIGHTLY less powerful, but definately not noticable).

Most people would consider the result of that battle a tie, and the gamers benefitted from it the most.

I can see this happening again.
 
If ps3 launches for 400, it will still get sales, but since halo 3 comes out on ps3 launch day, if a price drop for the xbox comes, it would be a huge blow for ps3.

One thing is for sure, I dont want to be in a game/electronic store the day halo 3 comes out, if xbox 360 price drops and ps3 comes out... wow, will I have a headache.
 
Most of the people who buy systems don't care how much they have to pay as long as they can get the games they want. A system is only as good as it's software. Which is why the PS2 sold so well.

As long as Sony has games like Final Fantasy, GTA, and GT it will sell well. The same reason why Nintendo will always have a market.
 
[quote name='cleaver']I was so sold by the PS3 E3 showing, if I had to cut off my left foot for one, I'd strongly consider it. I'd happily pay $399 for that badass machine.[/QUOTE]

I was impressed as well. However, *none* of that was actual PS3 footage, and it was all what the PS3 was "supposed" to look like.

Remember the realtime video of the dance sequence from FFVIII that was what the PS2 was "supposed" to look like? While I am certain that the PS3 will be an amazing system, they didn't really show much more than Nintendo did (specs notwithstanding).
 
Call me crazy but I would pay upwards to $999 for a PS3 on launch day. I love gaming and I need all the major consoles on lauch regardless of price. I went to college so I could absorb these huge expenditures damnit!!!!

But I'm not a PS3 fanboy either. In fact the PS2 is my least favorite system although Katamari, Red Faction I, the original SSX, Timesplitters, GTA's, Metal Gear Solids have all given me fond memories.
 
I have seen some good points being made in this discussion and thought I should chime in with my thoughts.

The media estimated cost for the PSP was well over $300 but it managed to launch in japan for less than $200 and here Stateside for $250 with a boatload of extras. Don't trust these estimations tyhey are not made by the company who makes the product so they are most likey worst case scenario.

As for the PS3 "out performing" the 360 I will believe it when I see it. I know the PS3 is going to launch 5 or so months later so they should have the edge but the cell processor could be all hype. Just look at the pentium 4 launch they were supposed to be SO much better than a pentium 3 but they turned out to be very mediocre.
 
[quote name='JSK414']Oh, and did I mention... GO XBOX 360!!!! DOWN WITH PS3!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Right on!!! And then maybe the Revolution will die too! Woo-hoo! The end of competition! I can finally buy all of my games for just one console that will only run me about $800!! Yes!
 
[quote name='Tromack']If a highend Pentium 4 sells on the street for well over 200, is it that crazy that a new very specialized CPU costs 100 to Sony? I'm sure the street price on a Cell Processor would probably be above the total cost of the PS3.[/QUOTE]

You have to keep in mind a couple of factors... One, a P4 is a comercial component. It's sold to customers and is subsequently marked up at each transaction ( Manufacturer, wholesaler, retailer...) They are also more expensive because they need to be more flexible than a console cpu would be. There are many more hardware configs that a P4 would need to support. A Cell processor would only need to work with the PS3 hardware. Additionally, Sony can get the CPU cheaply because 1- its being made soley for them, 2- they have a hand in production, 3- they order in 1,000-100,000 unit batches that get a large group discount.

[quote name='Quackzilla']
And of course only Nintendo will make a profit on it's consoles, as usual.[/QUOTE]


If I recollect correctly, the Xbox is the first console to sell at a loss in a long time. I can't remember the source, nor can I look it up at work, but I think MS is the only one to loss money per unit recently. Thats only because they bought hardware from other vendors. For example- Everyones favorite Thompson drives... They are the fullsize drives that are about an inch and a half tall, five inches wide and 6-7 inches deep. Not only do they cost more because they bought them from another vendor, but they also increase size which affects everything. Now because its bigger they need to make the case bigger, which means they need bigger boxes and they cost more to ship. Compare that the PS2's drives. They're they same width (due to the fact they have to fit a cd, DUH) but they are only about 1/2 an inch thick and 5-6 long AND they aren't enclosed in metal. That makes them cheaper and lighter (which makes it cheaper still).

I'm sure Epo will be in here soon to give concrete numbers. :lol:
 
[quote name='strayfoxx']Call me crazy but I would pay upwards to $999 for a PS3 on launch day. I love gaming and I need all the major consoles on lauch regardless of price. I went to college so I could absorb these huge expenditures damnit!!!!

But I'm not a PS3 fanboy either. In fact the PS2 is my least favorite system although Katamari, Red Faction I, the original SSX, Timesplitters, GTA's, Metal Gear Solids have all given me fond memories.[/QUOTE]

Ok, you're crazy. Locked in a looney bin, banging your head on the padded walls until it bleeds crazy.
 
As far as specs, the uinbiased reviews of the PS3 and 360 seem to have them neck and neck. Both have strengths and weaknesses that balance out. PS3 get the edge as far as having blu-ray, but dependng on how much they cost to manufacuter, developers may wait until the price drops. Also, don't be surprised if the PS3 does launch at $400. Ken K basically said that the system will be so good that they can charge whatever they want and people will just say I need to work more hours to get it. Personally, I think charging $400 w/o a hard drive will give the 360 a huge edge. I think it is unrealistic to think that the 360 would drop in price w/i 6-8 months of it's release, but they may do some sort of bundle when the PS3 launches.
 
I almost forgot: remember how people thought it would be *absurd* to charge more than $150 for a PSP at launch?

:rofl:

Sony will charge whatever it wants, and it will not drop in price just because they should. And, the other lesson is: you will buy it.

myke.
...how quickly we forget.
 
not to mention... aren't the Ps3 games SUPPOSIVELY going to be around $60-70 each?


I still can't believe they are getting away with the PSP @ $250 and games at $40-50.... for a handheld. :roll:

The DS is outperforming the PSP at this time.... and I hope Sony isn't wondering why. But thats ok with me... IMO the PSP is not half the machine the DS is.... even though technically its superior.

Its not going to take much and sony will lose the market. Nintendo had 2 top systems, Sony had 2.... no company lasted beyond 2 top systems (that I can think of). Look at Atari/Sega and some other companies.... I am glad Nintendo has been able to hang on (and doing pretty well at it). IMO Nintendo is one of the last true gaming companies.

Also not to mention... Sony has had bad luck with its own formats..... IE Beta, Mini-Disc, UMD (don't tell me its doing so hot), and now Blu-ray.... I wonder if Blu-ray will catch on... or fall the way of beta IMO its cool to have such a large storage disc... but will the support be there.

BV
 
That George Forman Grill (aka PS3) will get scaled back quite a bit by launch I think. They'll shoot themselves in the foot for selling it for around $400+.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Especially since Sony developed AND manufactures Blu-Ray, and owns exclusive rights. They don't have to pay a liscense fee on the technology.
They get it at the cost of the materials and labor (because they don't have to buy it from anyone, they make it themselves), probably under $20 each.

The Cell, codeveloped by IBM and Sony, probably under the assumption that Sony would get a huge discount on the chips for PS3s.

To suggest that Sony would have to pay the street price for every component, even those they made themselves, is simply outrageous.[/QUOTE]
Thats not street price, not at all.

Blu-Ray drives are expensive to manufacture, because none are currently being mass produced, and none are going to be available commercially until 2007 at the earliest. These will be among the first. They are inherently more expensive for several reasons. The disc must spin extremely close to the laser head, and the discs are much more fragile, so the drive needs to be a ton more precise. Being backwards compatible also adds to the price, since it will need both a red and a blue laser on the head. This costs a lot more than $20. Plus, Blu-Ray discs cost a lot more, and it will be very expensive to convert production lines to Blu-Ray, this'll end up costing Sony some money too.

Regular DVD drives are highly commoditized, you can just take the lowest bidder. They're dirt cheap in any quantity, and we're talking massive quantities.

The Cell processor is the first of its kind, nothing remotely close has been manufactured before. Its more than twice as big as a normal processor, first of all, so it costs more from a materials standpoint, and you get lower yields per wafer. They've been having enough problems getting these out the door, that 1 of the 8 SPE's will be disabled on every chip. This is a chip that is supposed to "blow the doors off" of the 3 core 3.2ghz PowerPC? For comparison, a 2 core 2.2ghz Athlon 64 costs about $600 on the street. If you think $100 is the "street price", you're insane. I'm shocked that its only $100.


Kutaragi all but concedes that it'll cost more in the interview. "Our ideal [for the PS3] is for consumers to think to themselves, 'OK, I'll work more hours and buy it'."
 
[quote name='bluevoodu']
IMO Nintendo is one of the last true gaming companies.
[/QUOTE]


You are right. Nintendo is the last true gaming company. Microsoft is a giant corporation hell bent on gaining a massive market share in all forms of computing while sony is a electronic entertainment behemoth only concerened with making a profit.
 
[quote name='bluevoodu']not to mention... aren't the Ps3 games SUPPOSIVELY going to be around $60-70 each?


I still can't believe they are getting away with the PSP @ $250 and games at $40-50.... for a handheld. :roll:

The DS is outperforming the PSP at this time.... and I hope Sony isn't wondering why. But thats ok with me... IMO the PSP is not half the machine the DS is.... even though technically its superior. [/QUOTE]
Um, all next gen games are supposed to be $50, except EA games on Xbox 360 which will be $60.
Coincidentally, the $50 PSP games are also made by EA.

You are taking the sins of EA and using fanboy logic to associate them with Sony.

BAD FANBOY, BAD! NO BONE FOR YOU!
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Thats not street price, not at all.

Blu-Ray drives are expensive to manufacture, because none are currently being mass produced, and none are going to be available commercially until 2007 at the earliest. These will be among the first. They are inherently more expensive for several reasons. The disc must spin extremely close to the laser head, and the discs are much more fragile, so the drive needs to be a ton more precise. Being backwards compatible also adds to the price, since it will need both a red and a blue laser on the head. This costs a lot more than $20. Plus, Blu-Ray discs cost a lot more, and it will be very expensive to convert production lines to Blu-Ray, this'll end up costing Sony some money too.

Regular DVD drives are highly commoditized, you can just take the lowest bidder. They're dirt cheap in any quantity, and we're talking massive quantities.

The Cell processor is the first of its kind, nothing remotely close has been manufactured before. Its more than twice as big as a normal processor, first of all, so it costs more from a materials standpoint, and you get lower yields per wafer. They've been having enough problems getting these out the door, that 1 of the 8 SPE's will be disabled on every chip. This is a chip that is supposed to "blow the doors off" of the 3 core 3.2ghz PowerPC? For comparison, a 2 core 2.2ghz Athlon 64 costs about $600 on the street. If you think $100 is the "street price", you're insane. I'm shocked that its only $100.


Kutaragi all but concedes that it'll cost more in the interview. "Our ideal [for the PS3] is for consumers to think to themselves, 'OK, I'll work more hours and buy it'."[/QUOTE]
How much does it cost Intel to get a Pentium 4 chip?
How much does it cost Athlon to get an Athlon 64 chip?
How much does it cost Samsung to get a DVD drive?
How much does it cost Memorex to get a DVD?

How much does it cost Sony to get the PS3 components?

You seem to forget that Sony manufactures and designed (at least in part) almost all of the PS3 components.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Um, all next gen games are supposed to be $50, except EA games on Xbox 360 which will be $60.
Coincidentally, the $50 PSP games are also made by EA.

You are taking the sins of EA and using fanboy logic to associate them with Sony.

BAD FANBOY, BAD! NO BONE FOR YOU![/QUOTE]
Like EA and Sony aren't in bed together lol.

If I am a fanboy, to which system am I am fanboy of? :D

If I am right.... Spiderman 2 was not EA made, right? that was $50 for the PSP.

The rumor is (Nothing has been set yet) that the PS3 games are supposed to be $60-70.

only time will tell if this is true. There has not been an official word yet.

Another thing is... I have a hard time believing with all that Sony wants to include.... the cost is only $494. The graphics card they want to use retails at over $1000 by itself (now I understand they will buy in bulk..etc). I just don't see how it will only cost $494.

BV
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top