Question for the CAG masters of physics

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Hex

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Yup, so I've got what could either be a vague or vey in depth question for the CAGs who're good with physics, primarily concerning magnetism. Without going into heavy detail, this is the issue:

Inside a pipe designed to measure the pressures of the earth, there are two devices, that need to communicate with each other. Wirelessly. This is meant to be accomplished by the use of coils that produce a field from either object, and they will meet up and exchange information by means of their waves coming together. The problem appears to be that when the pipe that they reside in is not grounded to earth, they communicate fine, because the waves are absorbed by the pipe and transferred to each other by that manner. WHen the pipe is grounded, like the real application, the waves are bled off, and the information is lost. I guess the question is, how does one keep the pipe from absorbing the magnetic fields (without replacing the pipe)?

A free intarbutts to whomever can produce an answer. :3
 
[quote name='DeathDealer']Shit, dont ask me. I cant even think of a clever smart ass answer.[/quote]

I wouldn't either. I mean, shit, this is CAG, but having seen some complex questions asked in the past, I figured there's no reason not to.
 
[quote name='DeathDealer']What is the question for? why are you asking?[/quote]

It's a problem I'm facing at work. Basically I'm starting at the basics concerning magnetism and any help would be appreciated. :D

I need to get a job at a gun shop or something that I know shit about. Ferrous metals? Wtf?
 
Why does the pipe have to touch the earth at all? I am confused about the reason behind the question. IE If I know what you were trying to do, I could probably come up with another solution. Putting so many fixed variables into it seems to make the question harder than it is.
 
[quote name='gweenpea']Why does the pipe have to touch the earth at all? I am confused about the reason behind the question. IE If I know what you were trying to do, I could probably come up with another solution. Putting so many fixed variables into it seems to make the question harder than it is.[/quote]
I doubt this is a breech of the NDA, so...

The whole reason the pipe is inside the earth is to gather informations about the pressure and temperature, among other things, of the earth in that particular region. Particularly an oil field. I don't know the length of the pipe, but it goes really far down, they send a canister down with the coil to the base where information is relayed to the canister, via the magnetic fields, and returns to the surface. The pipe that contains the canister is what is the problem since it's a ferrous material, it seems to be absorbing the fields. Obviously it is the epitome of the term 'grounded', which is the main part of said issue.
 
Right now I don't have much, but I'm looking into terms like 'magnetic susceptability' and 'permeability'. Am I at least on the right track? :D
 
Why not use sound waves to transmit the information?

The only way I know of to remove magnetism from a permanent magnet (IE your ferric metal pipe) is to heat it. I think heating iron to 370 C is the proper temp to force out the magnetism. I think once it cools it will turn back into a magnet however. As you are messing with oil field this wouldn't help you much.
 
[quote name='gweenpea']Why not use sound waves to transmit the information?

The only way I know of to remove magnetism from a permanent magnet (IE your ferric metal pipe) is to heat it. I think heating iron to 370 C is the proper temp to force out the magnetism. I think once it cools it will turn back into a magnet however. As you are messing with oil field this wouldn't help you much.[/quote]

I asked my boss and he said "yeah, that would work", but inferred that it would sort of be the next option if the magnetic fields wouldn't work. Now, the tub is not just hot air, but rather mud/water/earthy junk. How well that would conuct soundwaves, I don't know. It's not a very far distance, mind, but I don't know much about the properties of mud and its conuction of sound waves.

Yeah, I don't think that would work because solder melts at a fairly low temperature, if I recall right, and there's a few circuit boards installed int he canister.
 
solids and liquids conduct sound and although you may need to amplify the signal, in theory it would work. I'll think about the magnetic problem for awhile, and let you know what I come up with. Is there a timeframe you need an answer by?
 
[quote name='gweenpea']solids and liquids conduct sound and although you may need to amplify the signal, in theory it would work. I'll think about the magnetic problem for awhile, and let you know what I come up with. Is there a timeframe you need an answer by?[/quote]

That's what I figured, regarding the sound waves. I don't think there's much of a timeframe, really, though. Thanks for the help, by the way. :D
 
On another note, are there any nonmetallic substances that are as strong as titanium (the metal used in the construction of the canister), not brittle, and able to withstand high temperatures? I was thinking cermaics, since I've heard of those used in knives, the toes of my boots, and other situations where metal can't be used.

[quote name='Mospeada_21']a riddle....can I take a stab? (longshot at best)

how'bout a silicon based insulator? like a glass inner pipe?[/quote]

Sorry, didn't see your post. I think the issue with silicone is that it's fairly brittle, and (shit, I forgot to include this in the OP) one of the conditions of the canister is that it needs to withstand high impact pressures, hence the use of titanium in the original canister.
 
[quote name='Tiphireth']On another note, are there any nonmetallic substances that are as strong as titanium (the metal used in the construction of the canister), not brittle, and able to withstand high temperatures? I was thinking cermaics, since I've heard of those used in knives, the toes of my boots, and other situations where metal can't be used.



Sorry, didn't see your post. I think the issue with silicone is that it's fairly brittle, and (shit, I forgot to include this in the OP) one of the conditions of the canister is that it needs to withstand high impact pressures, hence the use of titanium in the original canister.[/QUOTE]

Diamond?
 
So I thought that the ferric metal tube was a given. IE you can't remove it or use something else. This makes it a little more fun.

Diamond might actually be a good idea. (Sure costs a lot, but it is so shiny!) Carbon that is. I read some cool stuff about nanotube fabric, but apparently not commercially available.

Maybe Kevlar (essential a ceramic material) would be an actual material you can purchase. Kevlar won't conduct the magnetic fields into the earth. I'm not 100 % how to engineer in to be a rigid tube and whatever the other qualities are.

Hey can I get a cnsulting fee from your company? JK
 
[quote name='gweenpea']So I thought that the ferric metal tube was a given. IE you can't remove it or use something else. This makes it a little more fun.

Diamond might actually be a good idea. (Sure costs a lot, but it is so shiny!) Carbon that is. I read some cool stuff about nanotube fabric, but apparently not commercially available.

Maybe Kevlar (essential a ceramic material) would be an actual material you can purchase. Kevlar won't conduct the magnetic fields into the earth. I'm not 100 % how to engineer in to be a rigid tube and whatever the other qualities are.

Hey can I get a cnsulting fee from your company? JK[/quote]
I fail for not explaining properly in the OP. :x

The ferric tube is the very long one that is permanently embedded in the earth. The shuttle made of titanium moves within the ferric pipe.

I've just come back from a pow-wow and some experiementing. What I had thought was you take a type of metal used ot shield against magnetic fields, like MuMetal (a nickel-iron alloy) and sort of "squeeze" the magnetic fields so that they don't get conducted into the ferric outer tube, but apparently they'd just get absorbed into the MuMetal and then conducted into the ferric pipe. fuck. Alright, well we tested it again, inside the scale pipe that we have, and it turns out grounding the pipe to an occiloscope doesn't affect the signal, rendering everything I've researched moot.

... Yeah. So I don't know what the problem is now, or even IF there is a problem. Actually the problem is that this project has so many fukken variables that our job is going to have to be to isolate all of the parameters and figure out results from them. Thanks guys for your help, if I've got any conclusive questions, I'll ask if anyone's interested in helping out again. :D

OT, I'd like to point out that engineers crack me the fuck up. There's a part of the shuttle with an extention on it that looks like a cock. My boss' other employee now affectionately refers to it as 'The Penis.' My boss concieved that one way to fix the original magetic field problem would be to make a.. 'vagina' of sorts, that would encase the coil (mounted in the penis) to solve the bleeding of signal issue. I noted that the vagina would get clogged with mud and stuff, and suggested that there be a pair of vents in the vagina that, when the penis slammed into it, would 'ejaculate' the debris through the vents and clearing the hardware of mud. :lol:

Poor, sexually deprived engineers.
 
You could place some buffers (mirror like objects) inside the pipe to strengthen the signals, kinda like how fiber optics work. Also, you could wrap the outside of the pipe with some insulation material.
 
So you've got a long metal pipe in the ground filled with mud that isn't replaceable. You then put a titanium sensor down into the pipe that talks with a sensor at the bottom of the pipe using magnetism.

Is that all right?

First question is- Why is there still dirt in the tube? Why not just clean it out and put covers on each end? Is the bottom of it open? Is the dirt in the pipe required or just too difficult to remove? My first idea for cleaning would be to get a high pressure water drill and a syphon and just wash your pipe out. Then I'd run some insulated/reinforced cables down to the sensors so you could have constant real time access to the sensors.

Why not a PVP/Ceramic/fiberglass insert? Second thought-- that wouldn't really work. It would prevent direct contact, but unlike electricty- magnets still work through non cunductive matter.

How close is the probe getting to the sensor? I take it IR communication is out of the question?

How does this thing work? Are the sensors just in the ground to get squished and the pipe is just there to allow access to the sensors? Or are the sensors hooked up to the pipe measuring the tension on the pipe and the dirt is inside so it doesn't totally collape?

More detail about your problem would affort a better solution.

You'd think someone smart enough to design a system to transmit data with magnetic waves to factor in the whole 'magnets like metal' principle.
 
[quote name='Kayden']So you've got a long metal pipe in the ground filled with mud that isn't replaceable. You then put a titanium sensor down into the pipe that talks with a sensor at the bottom of the pipe using magnetism.

Is that all right?[/quote]
Yep.

First question is- Why is there still dirt in the tube? Why not just clean it out and put covers on each end? Is the bottom of it open? Is the dirt in the pipe required or just too difficult to remove? My first idea for cleaning would be to get a high pressure water drill and a syphon and just wash your pipe out. Then I'd run some insulated/reinforced cables down to the sensors so you could have constant real time access to the sensors.
Click to expand...
No clue. All we're contracted to do is get the shuttle and the sensor to communicate. If you're really curious, ask them- I figure they're one of the companies that owns the field. Why there's semiviscous materiel inside the tube, I don't know. It's just there, and as far as I know, doesn't really hinder the operation of the system.

Why not a PVP/Ceramic/fiberglass insert? Second thought-- that wouldn't really work. It would prevent direct contact, but unlike electricty- magnets still work through non cunductive matter.

How close is the probe getting to the sensor? I take it IR communication is out of the question?
Click to expand...

It smacks right into the fukken thing. :lol: But yeah, IR is probably not in the company's price range, and they'd rather not revamp the entire system. We've got what we got, essentially.

How does this thing work? Are the sensors just in the ground to get squished and the pipe is just there to allow access to the sensors? Or are the sensors hooked up to the pipe measuring the tension on the pipe and the dirt is inside so it doesn't totally collape?
Click to expand...
They've got a unit that is pretty much hammered into the bottom of the pipe (don't ask me what stops it from slipping out into the earth, but somehow it stays stuck down there). It collects data, and every so often they drop the shuttle down the pipe, which falls, buffeted a little, until it runs into the sensor at the bottom. They exchange data, a quick secks, then some sort of mechanism draws the shuttle back up, and data is wirelessly retrieved (through the same process as the other end of the tube) for use by the company.

More detail about your problem would affort a better solution.

You'd think someone smart enough to design a system to transmit data with magnetic waves to factor in the whole 'magnets like metal' principle.
Click to expand...
You'd think. I'm just the cheap dumb muscle, though. :lol:

Anyway, before I left work, my boss called up the guy, and it turns out we'll be hollowing out the Penis and sticking the coil inside of that which should solve a lot of the problems.
 
[quote name='Tiphireth']

It smacks right into the fukken thing. :lol: But yeah, IR is probably not in the company's price range, and they'd rather not revamp the entire system. We've got what we got, essentially.
[/quote]

I have a stupid question. Why does the communication need to be wireless?
 
[quote name='guessed']I have a stupid question. Why does the communication need to be wireless?[/quote]

I'd imagine because any physical socket would become fouled by the debris in the tube or ruined by the force which the shuttle falls. Bent/crushed pins, bad connections, ect.
 
Dammit! Why did I have to read this just before heading to bed? I'll be thinking about this all night...

As I was reading (trying to envision the scene) and you mentioned NDAs, I got the feeling that this was a setup up already in place before you (and possibly the whole team) got there. Then, when I saw the big "H," I pretty much assumed that to be the case (well...maybe not the engineers).

It's a shame about the NDA, because there are so many factors involved that you probably cannot share that could help narrow things down. How far apart are the two cannisters, the length of the pipe, even the inner pipe diameter (what is the spacing between the cannister and inner pipe wall?). Is this what the pre-existing pipe was designed for, or is it being "converted" for this purpose. Obviously, you (probably) can't answer any of those...

(nevermind, I reread again, and saw that the cannisters touch...)

The debris that is in the pipe (sludge and what have you) - could that be interfering with the signal as well? Just a thought, given all the varibles involved...maybe I'm not understanding the design, but even with the bleeding, I would have thought that enough signal could make it "through" if they are physically touching when data is transmitted. (Although, I can see the materials of the cannisters versus the pipe grounding out due to the pipe, now that i think about it.)

I wish I could offer more, but it's hitting 2am, and I can barely think straight as it is...of course, I'll probably come up with zilch anyway...
 
[quote name='PlumeNoir']Dammit! Why did I have to read this just before heading to bed? I'll be thinking about this all night...

As I was reading (trying to envision the scene) and you mentioned NDAs, I got the feeling that this was a setup up already in place before you (and possibly the whole team) got there. Then, when I saw the big "H," I pretty much assumed that to be the case (well...maybe not the engineers).

It's a shame about the NDA, because there are so many factors involved that you probably cannot share that could help narrow things down. How far apart are the two cannisters, the length of the pipe, even the inner pipe diameter (what is the spacing between the cannister and inner pipe wall?). Is this what the pre-existing pipe was designed for, or is it being "converted" for this purpose. Obviously, you (probably) can't answer any of those...

(nevermind, I reread again, and saw that the cannisters touch...)

The debris that is in the pipe (sludge and what have you) - could that be interfering with the signal as well? Just a thought, given all the varibles involved...maybe I'm not understanding the design, but even with the bleeding, I would have thought that enough signal could make it "through."

I wish I could offer more, but it's hitting 2am, and I can barely think straight as it is...of course, I'll probably come up with zilch anyway...[/quote]

Yeah, I don't want to get in trouble, but frankly, there's a lot i don't understand myself. Hence the creation of the thread. :lol: The pipe's diameter's about two inches; the sides of the shuttle scrape against the pipe as it descends/ascends. The pipe was already there, a system of relaying data was in place before. And with regard to the goopey crap, no, it's not interferring because we've got a section of pipe and replica stuff all on a bench that we test it on.
 
Sounds like a job for Dr. Roger Billings. His company, Wideband, likes to demonstrate Ethernet over very adverse mediums, like barbed wire. Their specialty is getting fast Ethernet into building with elderly wiring.

A big blunt connector could do the trick for avoiding the whole wireless issue. Using very high redundancy, it may be feasible. What would be the minimum acceptable data rate?
 
I was thinking serial communication and just stick two large copper platters on each peice. If the two devices run into eachother anyways... and if you fail to make contact the first time, pick it up 3 feet and rop it again.

how is this little probe making it down a 2 inch pipe with all this shit in it? If its a tight fit, how does it get on the other side of the probe? Is it just not viscous?
 
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