Rebuttal to Buffet? "Warren Buffet: Health Care Bill Needs Redo Focused On Costs"

- Cut spending from our $1 trillion empire. Like $500 billion worth
- End all farming subsidies to massive corporations (the slivers that are given to independent or small farmers can be slowly phased out over, let's say, 20 years)
- Eliminate the federal Department of Education
- Eliminate the Department of Homeland Security
- Eliminate pharma subsidies
- Eliminate oil and energy subsidies

This should get our budget close to neutral. Why stop there, though?

- Put medicare and social security spending back into the official budget, and outlaw raiding funds from their coffers
- Eliminate the income tax (the wealthy make out way better than their higher bracket tax rates would suggest, when all of the end of the year breaks come into play)
- Drop capital gains/business taxes by a nominal amount. Make it 0.5 or 1%. Raise the rate on companies that choose to set up base overseas so that it's significantly over our home rate
- Close corporate tax loopholes
- Institute a 2% tax on all goods and services

I'm going to need to take a while to go over all of my ideas, but I'm fairly sure we'd be ahead by a small amount. With a true surplus in order, monetary-based inflation would be under control. Only with a surplus in play, cut the tie between employment and health insurance, and encourage people to pay cash or set up payment plans with their doctor for routine visits/checkups - leaving insurance for catastrophic or costly endeavors.

I think it'd be great to use that as a base for discussing health care. Forget Warren Buffet. He probably doesn't have anything worthwhile to put forward.
 
You should ignore the part where Buffet says this:

“If it was a choice today between plan A, which is what we've got, or plan B, what is in front of — the Senate bill, I would vote for the Senate bill,”
 
[quote name='IRHari']You should ignore the part where Buffet says this:

“If it was a choice today between plan A, which is what we've got, or plan B, what is in front of — the Senate bill, I would vote for the Senate bill,”[/QUOTE]

Actually I'm not ignoring anything, I linked to the article on NPR, the thread of the title is NPR's headline, and the article has both the transcript in writing and YouTube. Buffet's message is very obvious:

BECKY QUICK: Then, are you in favor of scrapping this and going back to start over?
BUFFETT: I would be (paragraph of Buffet advising Obama cut for brevity)
 
Well you should probably look at more than one article.

Probably should've included the full quote, from http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/33693.html

“If it was a choice today between plan A, which is what we've got, or plan B, what is in front of — the Senate bill, I would vote for the Senate bill,” Buffett said. “But I would much rather see a plan C that really attacks costs. And I think that's what the American public wants to see. I mean, the American public is not behind this bill. And we need the American public behind the bill, because it's going to have to do some tough things.”
Click to expand...


Anyway, its clear Buffet thinks this bill is better than the status quo, but would prefer a bill that focuses on cost as opposed to covering the uninsured, this one focuses more on the latter I think. Cute, someone wants a public option to foster competition!
 
[quote name='IRHari']Well you should probably look at more than one article.

Probably should've included the full quote, from http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/33693.html

Anyway, its clear Buffet thinks this bill is better than the status quo, but would prefer a bill that focuses on cost as opposed to covering the uninsured, this one focuses more on the latter I think. Cute, someone wants a public option to foster competition![/QUOTE]

Right, you just linked to an article on Politico titled:

"Warren Buffett would scrap health care bill"

Once again, obvious Buffet is dissatisfied and wants to start over no matter how you want to nuance it.
 
[quote name='IRHari']You should ignore the part where Buffet says this:

“If it was a choice today between plan A, which is what we've got, or plan B, what is in front of — the Senate bill, I would vote for the Senate bill,”[/QUOTE]

don't forget this part


"If it was a choice today between Plan A, which is what we've got, or Plan B, which is the Senate bill, I would vote for the Senate bill," he said. "But I would much rather see a Plan C that really attacks costs, and I think that's what the American public wants to see."
 
[quote name='IRHari']Holy fuck people:

"I would vote for the Senate bill,"

now qq

[/QUOTE]

No, you're not parsing it correctly to fit into your worldview.
 
I heart pigeonholing Buffet into supporting or scrapping the bill.

I heard he's on Team Jacob.

Reading the actual article as opposed to just the title would lead you to the conclusion that Buffet thinks this is better than nothing, because if it gets scrapped now it won't be addressed for a while. He knows it doesn't address the ultimate problem, but its better than the status quo, like he says in the article.
 
Buffet is a pretty smart guy, he recognizes that we as a country need to stop being looted.

But he also seems to recognize there is basically zero political will (where it counts) to see insurance companies, their layers upon layers of middle men, pharma or hospitals and doctors either get paid substantially less or not get the cut they consider their right.

So it is a choice between this bill now, some fantasy do over or wait another decade or so when it just topples over.
 
Yep, that's my read on it as well.

He doesn't like the current senate bill. But he thinks it's better than nothing.

And I agree. It's very watered down from what I'd like, but it's better than nothing. It's still a big change after years of failing to make any real changes to the insurance system.
 
Buffet wants to scrap both bills, increase coverage, and reduce costs?

Sounds to me like he's in favor of the public option.

(this is just my way of saying Buffet was vague enough that you can read virtually anything into his interview, so anyone trying to draw conclusions from it should, well...stop.)

Maybe instead of this, you could head over to the Obama Care May Be Deadly thread where we can discuss the (de)merits of interstate commerce like grown ups. Ain't a lot of folks over there defending the GOP plan of "tort reform, interstate commerce and, uh...other stuff." Since some of you agree with it, I'd like you to come on over there, be a grown up, have some dignity, and defend that which you support. This "cut and paste from a blog" gotcha nonsense can fuck right off.

And, to fully kill this thread dead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkC7dcxZ5_Q
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Maybe instead of this, you could head over to the Obama Care May Be Deadly thread where we can discuss the (de)merits of interstate commerce like grown ups. Ain't a lot of folks over there defending the GOP plan of "tort reform, interstate commerce and, uh...other stuff." Since some of you agree with it, I'd like you to come on over there, be a grown up, have some dignity, and defend that which you support. This "cut and paste from a blog" gotcha nonsense can fuck right off.

And, to fully kill this thread dead
[/QUOTE]

So you want to "kill"/silence threads that don't support your opinion? Not surprising. Hmm, here come the insults again. Funny how those always pop up when a damaging argument is made with no good rebuttal available.

BTW, when did NPR become just "a blog"? Would you like me to link to the many other news sites carrying this story? :)
 
It doesn't support anything. You can draw *any* conclusion from Buffet's interview.

He's not happy with the House and Senate plans
I'm not happy with the House and Senate plans
You're not happy with the House and Senate plans

we must all want the same thing, then, right? Oh, we don't? Then what's your overall point here?

grown-up talk is that-a-way. ---->
 
You're trying to tell me what Warren Buffet wants, but you can't do that without placing your own spin on his comments.

Tell me he doesn't want single-player, and back it up with his words.
 
What damaging argument are you talking about? It was a post about what Warren Buffet thinks, there wasn't even an argument in there, just his opinion, that was the whole fucking post.
 
Ruin,

Insulted isn't really the word I would use.

It isn't really an insult to call a disingenuous hack a disingenuous hack.

You get "insults" because you are short on substance.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Ruin,

Insulted isn't really the word I would use.

It isn't really an insult to call a disingenuous hack a disingenuous hack.

You get "insults" because you are short on substance.[/QUOTE]

Ironic considering your posting history! (mostly 1-3 sentence drive-bys if I "Find more posts" by you).
 
I doubt most americans even know much about current healthcare legislation. Understandably so, considering how much it keeps changing based on how much Obama wants to appease the republicans. It's already had its teeth ripped out and they still aren't happy, why not just go ahead decapitate the damn thing so we can't even tell what it is anymore.

I hope the democrats will eventually realize that no matter what they do the republicans will oppose them, That means that if you're going to try and pass something which the republicans will hate (meaning basically anything not proposed by them) you might as well make them hate it as much as possible. Don't appease them, make them choke on it the entire way down.
 
[quote name='SpazX']What damaging argument are you talking about? It was a post about what Warren Buffet thinks, there wasn't even an argument in there, just his opinion, that was the whole fucking post.[/QUOTE]

The fact that it is Warren Buffet saying it is what makes it damaging, the argument is that given his clout and relationship with Obama it must be pretty bad for Buffet to say to scrap it. The counter argument some are trying to make is to somehow nuance and reframe what he said as if it were a neutral or good thing for the current administration's healthcare reform aspirations.

The reality is that Warren just said to flush the current senate/house/obama healthcare plan turd and get to work on something new. Given Buffet's clout and his relationship with Obama, that is damaging enough in itself.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Ironic considering your posting history! (mostly 1-3 sentence drive-bys if I "Find more posts" by you).[/QUOTE]

I make longer posts when it is worth it and if the person I am replying too isn't being intentionally obtuse.

Quite frankly I have made one word replies that have more substance than pretty much anything you have ever posted.

You for whatever reason carry water for the Republican Party and are willing to go absurdly dishonest lengths to push their talking points.

I can do substance on healthcare easily, I have done so numerous times.

You, eh not so much.
 
At this point I think the best option is to just pass the damn senate bill. Any more negotiating will just end with a neutered, or with nothing passed at all.

Just get the house to pass the senate bill, get it on Obama's desk, and we can worry about other reforms down the road. At least get the damn ball rolling.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']I hope the democrats will eventually realize that no matter what they do the republicans will oppose them, That means that if you're going to try and pass something which the republicans will hate (meaning basically anything not proposed by them) you might as well make them hate it as much as possible. Don't appease them, make them choke on it the entire way down.[/QUOTE]

They don't have the votes to do something like that anymore. If they did it would have been done already.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Quite frankly I have made one word replies that have more substance than pretty much anything you have ever posted.[/QUOTE]

Narcissism.
 
[quote name='Ruined']The fact that it is Warren Buffet saying it is what makes it damaging, the argument is that given his clout and relationship with Obama it must be pretty bad for Buffet to say to scrap it. The counter argument some are trying to make is to somehow nuance and reframe what he said as if it were a neutral or good thing for the current administration's healthcare reform aspirations.

The reality is that Warren just said to flush the current senate/house/obama healthcare plan turd and get to work on something new. Given Buffet's clout and his relationship with Obama, that is damaging enough in itself.[/QUOTE]

So you're not really interested in debating the finer points of programs you support. You're just interested in maintaining character assassination-by-proxy threads.

And yet you wonder why you get more WWF than Meet the Press in your responses.

Why, I do believe you're incapable of debating the finer points of the programs you support. There's no other plausible reason why you'd hem and haw and avoid it other than a lack of knowledge.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Holy fuck people:

"I would vote for the Senate bill,"

now qq

[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

Like I said the only rebuttal to Buffet is to tell him to bribe Congress with even more money than the insurance companies etc. have.
 
[quote name='Ruined']The fact that it is Warren Buffet saying it is what makes it damaging, the argument is that given his clout and relationship with Obama it must be pretty bad for Buffet to say to scrap it. The counter argument some are trying to make is to somehow nuance and reframe what he said as if it were a neutral or good thing for the current administration's healthcare reform aspirations.

The reality is that Warren just said to flush the current senate/house/obama healthcare plan turd and get to work on something new. Given Buffet's clout and his relationship with Obama, that is damaging enough in itself.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that's an argument, it might even be a logical fallacy.

If Buffet is an expert on health insurance or some shit then his opinion matters, otherwise, what difference does it make that he likes Obama and doesn't like the bill? He didn't present an argument so there isn't really much there to discuss - the Ryan thread at least has policies.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']So you're not really interested in debating the finer points of programs you support. You're just interested in maintaining character assassination-by-proxy threads.[/quote]

Says the name-caller. And what program are you referring to that I am supporting?

And yet you wonder why you get more WWF than Meet the Press in your responses.
Click to expand...

I don't wonder, its because the more vocal members of this board have a heavy liberal bias. Also, its WWE now. ;)

Why, I do believe you're incapable of debating the finer points of the programs you support. There's no other plausible reason why you'd hem and haw and avoid it other than a lack of knowledge.
Click to expand...

Its not so much that I support any particular recently proposed new program, but that I oppose the current one that the Democrats are trying to go it alone on. And I think you know that. "Lack of knowledge," there you go with namecalling again, while stating I "assissinate character" in the same post. Projection much?
 
[quote name='Ruined']Here's a better challenge, can you point to a post you've made recently more informative/constructive/comprehensive than this one I made recently:[/quote]

I can point to every single post I made in that thread.

The one you stopped posting in because you knew you had jackshit.
 
I'm no Political Genius, but couldn't starting over be disastrous for the Democrats?
If the push through the Senate bill with the majority they have now, they accomplish what they want.
If they start over, I don't think it would be ready until after the elections this fall. With how it looks like things are all up in the air for the elections, the Dems could potentially face a much smaller majority(off chance they lose that majority), which would make the odds of passing the next bill much less likely.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I can point to every single post I made in that thread.

The one you stopped posting in because you knew you had jackshit.[/QUOTE]

lol. I stopped posting because I made my point that I felt solidly stood on its own despite the detractors, thus I felt no reason to reply... I let you continue to namecall in that thread so people could continue to see your true colors.
 
[quote name='myl0r']I'm no Political Genius, but couldn't starting over be disastrous for the Democrats?[/quote]

Yes, which is why the Republicans want it to happen. So they would just wash their hands and repeat.


If the push through the Senate bill with the majority they have now, they accomplish what they want.
If they start over, I don't think it would be ready until after the elections this fall. With how it looks like things are all up in the air for the elections, the Dems could potentially face a much smaller majority(off chance they lose that majority), which would make the odds of passing the next bill much less likely.
Click to expand...

You win the prize.
 
[quote name='Ruined']They don't have the votes to do something like that anymore. If they did it would have been done already.[/QUOTE]
No it wouldn't have because the democrats have no spine. They're using reconciliation to push through what is left of the corpse, i don't see why they couldn't have done the same with the full bill.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Its not so much that I support any particular recently proposed new program, but that I oppose the current one that the Democrats are trying to go it alone on. And I think you know that. "Lack of knowledge," there you go with namecalling again, while stating I "assissinate character" in the same post. Projection much?[/QUOTE]

What do you support? What do you stand for? Do you think anything should be done with our health care system, or that it's fine and sustainable and affordable and accessible as it is?

Yes, I know it's "WWE" now, but I agree with Forbes' assessment that it was a disastrous name change. Besides, the big-time wrasslin' was better then than now.

But, yeah - you're opposed to Obama's health care. But where else do you stand? What do you stand for? What do you support in health care? You're not going to get away from this. If you have no interest in health care other than to oppose the House/Senate plans, then you're not worth debating. Anybody who thinks the health care system is fine as it is has nothing to bring to the table.

Or, perhaps, just admit you've got nothing to offer but obstructionism. Just like the rest of the right.

***not that I *really* believe you don't support interstate commerce, mind, and if I could be bothered, I'm sure I could find you posting in these vs forums where you do support interstate commerce. I think you've been challenged on something you support but lack the acumen to defend.***
 
[quote name='Ruined']lol. I stopped posting because I made my point that I felt solidly stood on its own despite the detractors, thus I felt no reason to reply... I let you continue to namecall in that thread so people could see your true colors.[/QUOTE]

Meh, you know you are full of it, we know you are full of it.

If I wanted to play a silly game I would just go back to Robot Unicorn Attack.
 
[quote name='myl0r']I'm no Political Genius, but couldn't starting over be disastrous for the Democrats?
If the push through the Senate bill with the majority they have now, they accomplish what they want.
If they start over, I don't think it would be ready until after the elections this fall. With how it looks like things are all up in the air for the elections, the Dems could potentially face a much smaller majority(off chance they lose that majority), which would make the odds of passing the next bill much less likely.[/QUOTE]

Listening to 60%+ what of the American people want is disasterous? Though it might be humbling, I'd say that starting over and listening to the people they are supposed to be representing would be politically advantagous as it would take the wind out of the repub's/tea party/population claims that they are just trying to ram some big gov't legislation through w/o cares of the people they are supposed to be listening to. I don't think it can be any clearer to the liberals in the party that they tried, and falling on the sword is probably not the best tactic especially when the votes likely aren't even there anymore.

The problem is that the healthcare bill appears to have been crafted by the far left of the party - especially the house version - but the democrat majority in the house/senate is most definitely not a far left majority. The leaders are far left, yes, but a large number of the individual votes they need to pass the bills are not. With those moderate Democrats in place who want to keep their job, its going to be very difficult to pass any current bill at this point given the 60%+ of Americans who want them to start over.
 
They spent last summer listening to the public screaming at them to keep government hands off their medicare.

Also, if you think a bill that lacks single payer, that lacks a public option, that allows for interstate trade and cuts spending in other programs to pay for itself is "far left," you're truly deserving of the "fucking moron" status heaped upon you so often that you get bent about. The bill's about as far left as Warren Buffet is - but you like to frame things the way your blogs tell you to, so that's ok. You would never admit to anything being truly bipartisan, you fail to concede that the bill was amended to the demands of conservative Democrats and moderate Republicans like Olympia Snowe - but all you see is the Hammer and Sickle, because, again, all you see is dichotomies and reactionary, emotional opposition.

You, again, because you deserve to be reminded of this, lack the intellectual acumen to debate the bill - or any proposal - itself.
 
How many of those 60%+ are republicans just towing the party opinion though. People who wouldn't support it anyway. Those opinions are worthless because they aren't based on information learned, rather what their party is telling them.
 
People who believe that it's "far left."

Ruined lives for this kind of vitriol because he's scared of debating the proposals themselves.
 
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