Religious symbols displayed on public land OR More liberal Christian bashing.

[quote name='Knoell']Your first statement is ridiculous.

Separation of church and state. The argument you guys are so quick to call up, when a christian flag is flying. Religion shall have no part in government. Well the opposite is true of ANY religion. Government shall have no part in Religion.

Simple as that. Argue one way or the other, but be consistent.

About the megachurchs, who cares? its a community thing, what is the big deal, what are they getting away with that we need to tax them? It almost sounds like you dislike megachurches.

There is also a $100+ million dollar mosque going up in NYC, should we tax them because they have money?[/QUOTE]

How is my first statement ridiculous?

I didn't run my business according to the taxes I owed. If I spent more money than came in, I owed no taxes. If I made a modest profit, I owed no taxes. If I made a huge profit, then I was only taxed on that. Either way, I was motivated to make my company a success. How did taxes infringe on my right to run my business?

As for megachurches and $100 million mosques, they should pay taxes. The money they're bringing in isn't solely for religious purposes. I'm not saying that they're putting money into terrorism but not all that money is going to spread the Word of God. I don't think Jesus and Allah said take money from my followers and build swimming pools and gymnasiums with it.
 
[quote name='depascal22']How is my first statement ridiculous?

I didn't run my business according to the taxes I owed. If I spent more money than came in, I owed no taxes. If I made a modest profit, I owed no taxes. If I made a huge profit, then I was only taxed on that. Either way, I was motivated to make my company a success. How did taxes infringe on my right to run my business?

As for megachurches and $100 million mosques, they should pay taxes. The money they're bringing in isn't solely for religious purposes. I'm not saying that they're putting money into terrorism but not all that money is going to spread the Word of God. I don't think Jesus and Allah said take money from my followers and build swimming pools and gymnasiums with it.[/QUOTE]

I still don't agree, most churches are non profit organizations. If they do make a profit, but they use it to pay for their employees, upkeep of the church, community events, missionaries, and spreading the word. Unless you plan on the government figuring out which churches are just taking home the profit and not using it and taxing them, which is not the governments place to determine.

No matter what though government should stay separated from church. You agree with this on one side, why do you think the government should be involved on the other side?
 
[quote name='Clak']Well of course it does if you believe you'll be punished for lying after swearing on something.:roll:[/QUOTE]

Look it up, many people who do not believe in God still respect the oath on the bible.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I still don't agree, most churches are non profit organizations. If they do make a profit, but they use it to pay for their employees, upkeep of the church, community events, missionaries, and spreading the word. Unless you plan on the government figuring out which churches are just taking home the profit and not using it and taxing them, which is not the governments place to determine.

No matter what though government should stay separated from church. You agree with this on one side, why do you think the government should be involved on the other side?[/QUOTE]

From a secular viewpoint, you're right. Most churches are non-profit organizations that do much good in their communities.

From a religious viewpoint, megachurches are appalling. They go against every teaching of Jesus. In some of the non-canonical books, Jesus even says that churches are not meant to be buildings but small groups of men intent on learning and passing on the Word of God.

In fact, you could say that some megachurches grow so big as to become another form of local government. I've been to churches where the offering plate isn't a suggestion as much as religious extortion. Walking into the church, you almost feel guilty for your immortal soul if you don't give as much as you can. Hell, the Catholic and Mormon churches even have their own taxes but they dress them up as "tithing".

I'm perplexed as to why small government people are so keen on joining big churches. Large amounts of money are always followed by large amounts of corruption but priests and preachers never do wrong right?
 
[quote name='depascal22']From a secular viewpoint, you're right. Most churches are non-profit organizations that do much good in their communities.

From a religious viewpoint, megachurches are appalling. They go against every teaching of Jesus. In some of the non-canonical books, Jesus even says that churches are not meant to be buildings but small groups of men intent on learning and passing on the Word of God.

In fact, you could say that some megachurches grow so big as to become another form of local government. I've been to churches where the offering plate isn't a suggestion as much as religious extortion. Walking into the church, you almost feel guilty for your immortal soul if you don't give as much as you can. Hell, the Catholic and Mormon churches even have their own taxes but they dress them up as "tithing".

I'm perplexed as to why small government people are so keen on joining big churches. Large amounts of money are always followed by large amounts of corruption but priests and preachers never do wrong right?[/QUOTE]

Sure those mega churches that take offering as a mandatory thing are ridiculous, and sure they are too extravagent. I agree mega churches are usually not going by the word of God, they may be preaching it, but they are not practicing it. But this is getting away from the point that it is not the governments job to determine this, and then tax them as a result.

I am a small government person, and I belong to a small church. I wouldn't condemn anyone for going to a large church so long as what is preached is the word of God though, and not some purposely/incidently incorrect interpratation of it.
 
[quote name='Knoell'] I wouldn't condemn anyone for going to a large church so long as what is preached is the word of God though, and not some purposely/incidently incorrect interpratation of it.[/QUOTE]

What gives you the right to condemn the interpretation of other denominations? They all have the same conviction that YOUR church is the one preaching false doctrine. The bible is such a muddled mess that you don't have a hope of proving one way or another which xtian sect has the "right" ideas.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Sure those mega churches that take offering as a mandatory thing are ridiculous, and sure they are too extravagent. I agree mega churches are usually not going by the word of God, they may be preaching it, but they are not practicing it. But this is getting away from the point that it is not the governments job to determine this, and then tax them as a result.

I am a small government person, and I belong to a small church. I wouldn't condemn anyone for going to a large church so long as what is preached is the word of God though, and not some purposely/incidently incorrect interpratation of it.[/QUOTE]

Easy. Tax everyone. If you run in the red like most small neighborhood and country churches, then you have no worries. I have a feeling that some of these megachurches and community centers run in the black.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']What gives you the right to condemn the interpretation of other denominations? They all have the same conviction that YOUR church is the one preaching false doctrine. The bible is such a muddled mess that you don't have a hope of proving one way or another which xtian sect has the "right" ideas.[/QUOTE]

Not saying I would condemn them for going. You are getting into technical differences between denominations, when I am simply saying for the reasons depascal was saying was wrong with mega churches. I do not condemn methodists, catholics, baptists, etc for going to their churchs.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Easy. Tax everyone. If you run in the red like most small neighborhood and country churches, then you have no worries. I have a feeling that some of these megachurches and community centers run in the black.[/QUOTE]

You still aren't answering how this isn't a violation of the separation of church and state.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Look it up, many people who do not believe in God still respect the oath on the bible.[/QUOTE]
That's even more ridiculous. Swearing on a copy of Green Eggs and Ham would have as much actual effect.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I still don't agree, most churches are non profit organizations. If they do make a profit, but they use it to pay for their employees, upkeep of the church, community events, missionaries, and spreading the word. Unless you plan on the government figuring out which churches are just taking home the profit and not using it and taxing them, which is not the governments place to determine.[/QUOTE]

So - if I create the church of camoor as a tax shelter, when the tax man cometh I can just tell him to piss off because it's not his job to figure out "which churches are just taking home the profit and not using it and taxing them"?

Sweet.
 
[quote name='camoor']So - if I create the church of camoor as a tax shelter, when the tax man cometh I can just tell him to piss off because it's not his job to figure out "which churches are just taking home the profit and not using it and taxing them"?

Sweet.[/QUOTE]
well I can't speak for all states, but in IL churches have to have a set of Bylaws that contain certain articles. There are regulations churches must follow to retain their tax exempt status. So it's not that a group of people can all of a sudden just claim they are a religion.
 
[quote name='Clak']That's even more ridiculous. Swearing on a copy of Green Eggs and Ham would have as much actual effect.[/QUOTE]

Do you honestly believe that?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Do you honestly believe that?[/QUOTE]

I do. The bible is no different from any other book of mythology IMO. Atheists consider it laughable that so many people consider it a "magic" book. Swearing on it is pointless and carries no weight at all..especially in legal matters. The bottom line is that you are giving an oath not to lie under penalty of perjury. That's all you need to understand.
 
[quote name='myl0r']well I can't speak for all states, but in IL churches have to have a set of Bylaws that contain certain articles. There are regulations churches must follow to retain their tax exempt status. So it's not that a group of people can all of a sudden just claim they are a religion.[/QUOTE]

I know that, I was just calling Knoell on his bullshit via reductio ad absurdum.
 
[quote name='camoor']I know that, I was just calling Knoell on his bullshit via reductio ad absurdum.[/QUOTE]

lol, you know you were wrong, but your flawed point still stands against me. Okie dokie.
 
[quote name='Strell']Render unto Ceaser's what is Ceaser's.[/QUOTE]

as long as the hot and ready pepperoni remains 5 bucks, I will continue to render.
 
[quote name='Knoell']lol, you know you were wrong, but your flawed point still stands against me. Okie dokie.[/QUOTE]

So wait.

You still believe it is not the government's job to figure out "which churches are just taking home the profit and not using it and taxing them"? It's a bit different because it's the government's job to invalidate profit-seeking enterprises as religions, but if I don't quote you on your bullshit you're going to try and find another way to weasel out of being called on the lies you continue to spew.

I can't debate you until you get informed man. Seriously, learn the facts and then we can debate opinions. But right now we're in the world of facts and you're in the wrong every. single. time. you. post.
 
[quote name='camoor']So wait.

You still believe it is not the government's job to figure out "which churches are just taking home the profit and not using it and taxing them"? It's a bit different because it's the government's job to invalidate profit-seeking enterprises as religions, but if I don't quote you on your bullshit you're going to try and find another way to weasel out of being called on the lies you continue to spew.

I can't debate you until you get informed man. Seriously, learn the facts and then we can debate opinions. But right now we're in the world of facts and you're in the wrong every. single. time. you. post.[/QUOTE]

Here is where you are being misleading. Despascal and I were not discussing made up invalid religions, we were talking about megachurches making profit (profit does not mean hoarding your money and taking it home - I love how you guys believe that) a priority over teaching the word of God. Typically megachurches do one of two things with their profit, they either take it home TAXED, or they reinvest it in the community and their church. I am assuming depascal was talking about the churches that ARENT taxed who file the 501(c)(3) when he said churches should be taxed. After all, churches can and some are willing to pay taxes, and do. None should be forced to though. The government has no right to determine whether or not an established religion is conducting its beliefs correctly or not, and taxing them if they find them guilty of it.
You. Are. Misleading. And. Wrong. Every. Time. You. Post. Get. Informed. About. The. Conversation. You. Are. About. To. Enter. Into. Take. Some. Time. To. Read. The. Prior. Posts.

In other words, don't take me out of context again. Separation. Of. Church. And. State.

Be. Consistant. At. The. Very. Least.
 
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[quote name='xxDOYLExx']as long as the hot and ready pepperoni remains 5 bucks, I will continue to render.[/QUOTE]

Hot and Ready is my stage name.

Except on Thursdays, when it is Good 'n Plenty.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Do you honestly believe that?[/QUOTE]
For me, yes. If someone swore on a bible to me that something was true it would hold no more weight with me than if someone swore on a Dr. Seuss book.

Stop acting like what I'm saying is so unbelievable.
 
[quote name='Clak']For me, yes. If someone swore on a bible to me that something was true it would hold no more weight with me than if someone swore on a Dr. Seuss book.

Stop acting like what I'm saying is so unbelievable.[/QUOTE]

I most certainly believe you believe that. I was asking you if you believe most people take swearing on the bible or some other holy book as lightly as swearing on a dr seuss book?

I don't believe that. Sure if someone wants to lie they will lie no matter what book they swear on. But I still believe it reinforces the consciences of people who won't lie, and who are teetering on the brink, and reminds them that the truth is important.
 
[quote name='Knoell']You still aren't answering how this isn't a violation of the separation of church and state.[/QUOTE]

Taxing all churches (and businesses) equally doesn't favor one or make one the official church of America. Try again.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Taxing all churches (and businesses) equally doesn't favor one or make one the official church of America. Try again.[/QUOTE]
Not to say I agree or disagree with that statement, but if we apply that logic to the OP, that couldn't the government allow all flags to be flown? Not to say the Government should be responsible to put them all up, but if you want your particular religious flag flown, it is on you to put one up.
 
[quote name='myl0r']Not to say I agree or disagree with that statement, but if we apply that logic to the OP, that couldn't the government allow all flags to be flown? Not to say the Government should be responsible to put them all up, but if you want your particular religious flag flown, it is on you to put one up.[/QUOTE]

The flip side is that the city could say that nothing other than federal, state, and local flags could be flown.

Many municipalities are going the nothing route because they don't want to see a KKK, Black Panther, or la Raza flag flying high over monuments.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I most certainly believe you believe that. I was asking you if you believe most people take swearing on the bible or some other holy book as lightly as swearing on a dr seuss book?

I don't believe that. Sure if someone wants to lie they will lie no matter what book they swear on. But I still believe it reinforces the consciences of people who won't lie, and who are teetering on the brink, and reminds them that the truth is important.[/QUOTE]Why even ask such a silly question? Of course if a person swears on a book and you believe in what that book says it's going to have an impact on you. Keep in mind I mean religous texts, I can't see swearing on a copy of The Origin of Species making am evolutionary biologist believe anyone.
 
[quote name='depascal22']The flip side is that the city could say that nothing other than federal, state, and local flags could be flown.

Many municipalities are going the nothing route because they don't want to see a KKK, Black Panther, or la Raza flag flying high over monuments.[/QUOTE]
By that I'm guessing you mean that they would exclude groups such as the VFW, POW/MIA, etc?
The difference I see is that the KKK, Black Panthers, and la Raza are political groups, not religious groups.
 
[quote name='myl0r']By that I'm guessing you mean that they would exclude groups such as the VFW, POW/MIA, etc?
The difference I see is that the KKK, Black Panthers, and la Raza are political groups, not religious groups.[/QUOTE]

The KKK is a political group with huge religious overtones. They're all about white Christian power.

See how slippery the slope is? Again, it's easier for most municipalities to just ban everything.
 
[quote name='depascal22']The KKK is a political group with huge religious overtones. They're all about white Christian power.

See how slippery the slope is? Again, it's easier for most municipalities to just ban everything.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware of the religious overtones in the KKK. And I did not argue that they should or should not be. My point was, are you also in favor of banning flags at monuments such as this if the flag is POW/MIA? VFW? Boy Scouts?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Here is where you are being misleading. Despascal and I were not discussing made up invalid religions, we were talking about megachurches making profit (profit does not mean hoarding your money and taking it home - I love how you guys believe that) a priority over teaching the word of God. Typically megachurches do one of two things with their profit, they either take it home TAXED, or they reinvest it in the community and their church. I am assuming depascal was talking about the churches that ARENT taxed who file the 501(c)(3) when he said churches should be taxed. After all, churches can and some are willing to pay taxes, and do. None should be forced to though. The government has no right to determine whether or not an established religion is conducting its beliefs correctly or not, and taxing them if they find them guilty of it.
You. Are. Misleading. And. Wrong. Every. Time. You. Post. Get. Informed. About. The. Conversation. You. Are. About. To. Enter. Into. Take. Some. Time. To. Read. The. Prior. Posts.

In other words, don't take me out of context again. Separation. Of. Church. And. State.

Be. Consistant. At. The. Very. Least.[/QUOTE]

You still haven't answered how you feel about groups like the Scientologists getting the same tax dodge.

Also -

[quote name='Knoell'](profit does not mean hoarding your money and taking it home - I love how you guys believe that)[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by that? I believe that if you make a legitimate profit after taxes, noone should stop you from doing what you want with it (including hoarding it or taking it home)
 
I don't care about scientologists, they are free to practice whatever religion they want.

What tax are you specifically saying we should lift? The exemption on member contributions? The exemption on the property used by the church? Priests, clergy and such pay income taxes for the most part. Or are you just saying there should be no exemption at all?
 
[quote name='Knoell']I don't care about scientologists, they are free to practice whatever religion they want.

What tax are you specifically saying we should lift? The exemption on member contributions? The exemption on the property used by the church? Priests, clergy and such pay income taxes for the most part. Or are you just saying there should be no exemption at all?[/QUOTE]

All of it but we could start with the property.

I think it's interesting you buy into scientology as a religion. I guess it fits.
 
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