RPG Thread #4 - Just in Time for Final Fantasy IV DS

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Dragon Quest III is easily better than any of the NES FF games, and I am comparing DQ3 GBC to FF1+2 on GBA and FF3 on DS. Havent played DQIV, hope to expenece it on DS.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Your only comparing FF4 to DQ which makes NO SENSE. Im talking RPGs on a large scale. When it comes down to it DQ back in the day still didnt compare to FF....however when you look at things now and all the step ups FFVII-XII have made DQ looks like a joke. And when you then take into acount things like Persona, Dark Cloud 2 or Tactics.....DQ isnt just a joke its the laughing stock of the RPG universe.[/quote]
DQ1-6 was NES to SNES. Comparing to FF.
DQ1 and FF1 are about equal.
DQ2 and FF2 are about equal. They both suck.
DQ3 and FF3 are about equal. I loved FF3's universe, but that twist in DQ3 gives me chills too. Both of them are really good. At this time, both are about the same in terms of innovation and story.
DQ4 ends the NES area with an innovative chapter system and party AI. The story was tremendous for being an NES game..

DQ5 and FF4... I'd give the edge to DQ5. The story was one of the more emotional stories I've ever experienced, and keep in mind that I played it about 3 years ago. It also featured a monster raising system, a prelude to Pokemon. FF4 had a good story and added ATB, but compared to DQ5, I don't know.
DQ6 and FF6... DQ6 featured two worlds, a dream world and a real world. It featured a totally revamped and awesome class system. FF6 had its Esper system, also featured two worlds. If you've played DQ6, you'd probably put these on the same level. DQ6 was THAT good.

Back in the days, DQ and FF were neck-and-neck. Chrono Trigger was the perfect combination of DQ and FF's strengths, combining Horii Yuji's tremendous story writing skills and Toriyama's character design with Square's battle system design and interface.

Between FF7 and 12, there were only two DQ games, 7 and 8... with 7 coming out next to FF10. Again, as far as the writing, I thought 7 was tremendous but the translation and graphics were terrible. And DQ8, well, kicked the pants off of any RPG in that generation. Level 5 did the graphic design and the battle system was clean and refined.

[quote name='Poor2More']DQ has always been dead to me, I never really could get into it, I was more into the classic SquareSoft games such as Secret of Evermore, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound

DQ such seemed boring and mindless[/quote]
DQ5 and 6 didn't come out in America, so you're comparing them to what, the NES games?
And like I said, Chrono Trigger was heavily influenced under the supervision of Horii Yuji, the creator of Dragon Quest. His writing is very similar in the other games.

[quote name='depascal22']I'm another guy that doesn't like the Dragon Warrior/Quest series. I should love it but I can't.

I think it's the grinding aspect. I'm all about grinding an hour to make a boss battle easier. Thing is, DQ makes you do even more grinding than that. Maybe it's just a subtle technique I'm not picking up but I remember grinding being a huge part of the game even on the earlier ones. The lack of a Phoenix Down (or equivalent) in the early part of the game can be a hindrance. I can beat most bosses in FF with the right items and minimal grinding. DQ makes it seem like grinding is the only way to beat the game.[/quote]
See, but I think most bosses in FF are easy mode. If the bosses aren't gimmicky, they can mostly be beaten by mashing fight and then healing when appropriate, and if you feel special you can use your caster to cast something.
No Phoenix Down adds a challenge to each battle; you can't afford to be lazy and let people accidentally die.
And like I said... if you don't like grinding, don't grind. You don't need the best weapons all the time; smart strategy will get you through the bosses. Learn how to use defend, when to leave your guys in AI mode or not, cast the right buffs / debuffs.

There is way too much complaining about grinding.
Seriously. Don't grind then, unless it's DQ1 and DQ2. It's perfectly beatable without having to spend hours grinding.
 
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I never really liked DQ 1, I think mostly because I played it after Final Fantasy 1 and I didn't like that you only got 1 character to play, as opposed to a party of characters.

As for DQ 2 and 3, it was a step up. You controlled more than just 1 character, and the stories were quite a lot better, but otherwise the gameplay was still very similar.

Then came DQ 4. It was and still remains one of my favorite RPGs ever, mainly due to the story and how it evolves. I loved the day/night cycle, the caravan, all the hidden things to find, and the music was extremely well-done for the NES. I still remember that one part where one of your characters runs his own shop, and another time when another character becomes the king. I played the game several times on the NES, and I loved every minute of it.

I am very anxiously awaiting DQ IV DS, and I don't care what anyone else says. The graphics look awesome, and the gameplay upgrades from the NES version also look very cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeGD_Lz-vlI
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm another guy that doesn't like the Dragon Warrior/Quest series. I should love it but I can't.

I think it's the grinding aspect. I'm all about grinding an hour to make a boss battle easier. Thing is, DQ makes you do even more grinding than that. Maybe it's just a subtle technique I'm not picking up but I remember grinding being a huge part of the game even on the earlier ones. The lack of a Phoenix Down (or equivalent) in the early part of the game can be a hindrance. I can beat most bosses in FF with the right items and minimal grinding. DQ makes it seem like grinding is the only way to beat the game.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I think FF is far too easy needing little grinding and late in the game little strategy. However DQ doesnt require that much more stratagy and 10,000x(I dont think thats much of an exaggeration)more grinding.
 
Last two DQ games I played were VIII and III, I didn't have to grind at all. In fact I beat the game at around level 44 for DQ VIII. took awhile but yea lol.
 
[quote name='kainzero']DQ1-6 was NES to SNES. Comparing to FF.
DQ1 and FF1 are about equal.
DQ2 and FF2 are about equal. They both suck.
DQ3 and FF3 are about equal. I loved FF3's universe, but that twist in DQ3 gives me chills too. Both of them are really good. At this time, both are about the same in terms of innovation and story.
DQ4 ends the NES area with an innovative chapter system and party AI. The story was tremendous for being an NES game..

DQ5 and FF4... I'd give the edge to DQ5. The story was one of the more emotional stories I've ever experienced, and keep in mind that I played it about 3 years ago. It also featured a monster raising system, a prelude to Pokemon. FF4 had a good story and added ATB, but compared to DQ5, I don't know.
DQ6 and FF6... DQ6 featured two worlds, a dream world and a real world. It featured a totally revamped and awesome class system. FF6 had its Esper system, also featured two worlds. If you've played DQ6, you'd probably put these on the same level. DQ6 was THAT good.

Back in the days, DQ and FF were neck-and-neck. Chrono Trigger was the perfect combination of DQ and FF's strengths, combining Horii Yuji's tremendous story writing skills and Toriyama's character design with Square's battle system design and interface.

Between FF7 and 12, there were only two DQ games, 7 and 8... with 7 coming out next to FF10. Again, as far as the writing, I thought 7 was tremendous but the translation and graphics were terrible. And DQ8, well, kicked the pants off of any RPG in that generation. Level 5 did the graphic design and the battle system was clean and refined.


DQ5 and 6 didn't come out in America, so you're comparing them to what, the NES games?
And like I said, Chrono Trigger was heavily influenced under the supervision of Horii Yuji, the creator of Dragon Quest. His writing is very similar in the other games.


See, but I think most bosses in FF are easy mode. If the bosses aren't gimmicky, they can mostly be beaten by mashing fight and then healing when appropriate, and if you feel special you can use your caster to cast something.
No Phoenix Down adds a challenge to each battle; you can't afford to be lazy and let people accidentally die.
And like I said... if you don't like grinding, don't grind. You don't need the best weapons all the time; smart strategy will get you through the bosses. Learn how to use defend, when to leave your guys in AI mode or not, cast the right buffs / debuffs.

There is way too much complaining about grinding.
Seriously. Don't grind then, unless it's DQ1 and DQ2. It's perfectly beatable without having to spend hours grinding.[/QUOTE]

Thing is I think DQ up till the PSX(PSX and Ps2 games were just jokes)were not bad games at all. The gameplay was on par with anything else from the time and even came up with great stuff like as you said the monster raising. However, I do not think that the stories were executed well. It was sooooo broken up by the horrid amounts of grinding needed and the charcters received far too little development. The plot was also largly stitched together just to hold the gameplay in place. Say what you want but the DQ games tend to come up with a fairly interesting idea for the main story.....but then its dominated by fetch quests and random obstacles.

Games like DQV(which I too just played for the first time a few years ago)came up with brilliant story concepts but then ruin it with the formula of "O no a mountain is blocking our path and the road is out!" so you visit a town, do a fetch quest which requires 10 hours of grinding then you move on to the next obstacle such as a sea you must cross by doing.....thats right, a fetch quest or some other pointless quest for someone so you can use their ship.

I used to read my Nintendo Powers and drool over DQ games and dream of them coming stateside because the concept behind them was so brilliant. The gameplay ideas like raising monsters or crossing weapons was so cool and the story sounded grand. I just didnt know it was a series that didnt execute.

Edit - And wow you really are out of your mind if you think DQ VIII beat any other RPG that gen. It hardly even made average let alone best of the gen. The gameplay was stuck back in the days of the SNES and the story was a cliche fairy book tale....and the charcters again received far too little development. The game is hardly a 7 let alone a 10(which it would have to be to compete as best of the gen). FFX had a much more complicated and better executed plot, a much more complicated and better executed battle system and X's skill system ran laps around DQVIII's skill system(if you can even call it that anymore).
 
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[quote name='MarkMan']Here come the RPG boyz ;0)[/QUOTE]oh shyt!!!

I donno bout u guys but I'm hella hyped for DQ4... Final Fantasy IV is whatever... wait for dat bargain bin or Circuit City clearance

I started playing Suikoden V this morning...

I named my main character Cheeseburger... everybody in the game talks but nobody wants to say my name!!!

wtf fuck all u guys!! say my name bitches!!

CHEESEBURGER!!
 
I need a FF game that requires me to grind, and not just for a super boss that only exists at the end of the game, when I'm less motivated to grind. They should remake FF5, just fix the translation and make it stupid difficult. Though finding Shinryu in a chest was a pretty dirty move.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Thing is I think DQ up till the PSX(PSX and Ps2 games were just jokes)were not bad games at all. The gameplay was on par with anything else from the time and even came up with great stuff like as you said the monster raising. However, I do not think that the stories were executed well. It was sooooo broken up by the horrid amounts of grinding needed and the charcters received far too little development. The plot was also largly stitched together just to hold the gameplay in place. Say what you want but the DQ games tend to come up with a fairly interesting idea for the main story.....but then its dominated by fetch quests and random obstacles.

Games like DQV(which I too just played for the first time a few years ago)came up with brilliant story concepts but then ruin it with the formula of "O no a mountain is blocking our path and the road is out!" so you visit a town, do a fetch quest which requires 10 hours of grinding then you move on to the next obstacle such as a sea you must cross by doing.....thats right, a fetch quest or some other pointless quest for someone so you can use their ship.[/quote]
I don't know how many times I need to say this, but if you don't wanna grind, DON'T GRIND. From 4-6, I don't remember doing any grinding at all. Heck, I'll go into a cave the first time, collect all the treasure, exit out and rest and come back in. Since I know the map, it takes me a lot quicker to clear it. And look, no grinding!

And last I checked, the story is never "we need dynamite to clear the rock!" I love how each town has its own little quirk and a clear message, and I love how it's resolved. The subplots in DQ7 were tremendous... exposing fake kings, following a love story. And the environment in DQ7 was great even though the graphics were crappy. When you walk into a desolate town, you know it is. You can feel the anxiety and the despair, the music kicks in, the writing reflects their mood. No other JRPG has that.

It's also funny because the overarching plot, I think, isn't even that strong, just your typical kill the foozle. It's the journey that really makes it for you.

Edit - And wow you really are out of your mind if you think DQ VIII beat any other RPG that gen. It hardly even made average let alone best of the gen. The gameplay was stuck back in the days of the SNES and the story was a cliche fairy book tale....and the charcters again received far too little development. The game is hardly a 7 let alone a 10(which it would have to be to compete as best of the gen). FFX had a much more complicated and better executed plot, a much more complicated and better executed battle system and X's skill system ran laps around DQVIII's skill system(if you can even call it that anymore).
Click to expand...
How is the gameplay dated? Does it even matter? I'll take the dated gameplay of Super Metroid over any of the Metroid Primes. I'll take the dated gameplay of Super Mario World over Galaxy. Even Etrian Odyssey's dated gameplay is celebrated.
The story was cliche? I don't care. They pulled it off very well. So many people are trying to make these mindblowing plots with a billion twists that it was just nice to sit back and relax to a straightforward and simple plot like DQ. There were no plot holes and everything concluded perfectly; I can't think of a better ending. I think Symphonia had one of the most cliched plots ever but it was executed so well that I didn't mind.

The character development is fine. If you've played an American RPG, there's not much character development there either, but they're all fine. It's just that JRPGs are still stuck and deluded into having characters with a deep problem rooted somewhere in the past that you eventually have to fix. In DQ8, for the amount of dialogue that Prince Charmles has they really did a great job of characterizing and villainizing him. When you finally get to the lake and temporarily remove the Princess's curse, all those little talks really got to me and actually made me care about her. I didn't care about Yuna and making sure she got all her Eidolons. I didn't care about Tidus wanting to be the best Blitzball player ever. DQ8 MADE you care.

As for the battle system, DQ is plenty complex. Again, you have to manage your MP as soon as you leave the town. Cast too many spells and you won't have any for the boss, don't cast enough and those monsters will kill you. If you fight a boss who takes two turns and hits for 60 damage and has the ability to debuff your party, and your caster only has 130 HP, what do you do? Do you cast speedup and hope he doesn't debuff? Do you set your caster to auto AI so that he can react as soon as he gets hurt? Do you parry and use your weaker caster to heal for only 40 HP? Maybe you defend? Or how about psyching up to give your defense buff a little more oomph? When do you cast your attack buff on your main attacker? FF 10's sphere grid was okay but in the end it was just needlessly complicated. For the most part it was completely linear to a point. And most of the random battles were unchallenging. None of the random battles in FF 10 made me think or have any urgency... whereas if someone dies in a random battle in DQ8, you gotta trek all the way back to town to resurrect.
 
[quote name='kainzero']
As for the battle system, DQ is plenty complex. Again, you have to manage your MP as soon as you leave the town. Cast too many spells and you won't have any for the boss, don't cast enough and those monsters will kill you. If you fight a boss who takes two turns and hits for 60 damage and has the ability to debuff your party, and your caster only has 130 HP, what do you do? Do you cast speedup and hope he doesn't debuff? Do you set your caster to auto AI so that he can react as soon as he gets hurt? Do you parry and use your weaker caster to heal for only 40 HP? Maybe you defend? Or how about psyching up to give your defense buff a little more oomph? When do you cast your attack buff on your main attacker? FF 10's sphere grid was okay but in the end it was just needlessly complicated. For the most part it was completely linear to a point. And most of the random battles were unchallenging. None of the random battles in FF 10 made me think or have any urgency... whereas if someone dies in a random battle in DQ8, you gotta trek all the way back to town to resurrect.[/quote]

For some reason, all I ever had to do was tap the X button in battles. Is there some secret option in the menu screen that makes the gameplay gain depth or something?
 
[quote name='kainzero']

The character development is fine. If you've played an American RPG, there's not much character development there either, but they're all fine. It's just that JRPGs are still stuck and deluded into having characters with a deep problem rooted somewhere in the past that you eventually have to fix. In DQ8, for the amount of dialogue that Prince Charmles has they really did a great job of characterizing and villainizing him. When you finally get to the lake and temporarily remove the Princess's curse, all those little talks really got to me and actually made me care about her. I didn't care about Yuna and making sure she got all her Eidolons. I didn't care about Tidus wanting to be the best Blitzball player ever. DQ8 MADE you care.
[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, where do I get THAT copy of DQ8? The one I bought had wicked boring characters with almost zero personality, who I couldn't care less about. I barely even remember their names.
 
I've only played a few hours of DQ7 and DQ8 but I couldn't get into it. I am somehow very excited for DQ4 (and DQ5) though. I'm on the verge of pre-ordering it from Best Buy because I have $30 in Best Buy gift cards + reward certificates, which would only cost me $15 or so.

I haven't had as much love for RPGs since my SNES-PS1 days so maybe something old-school and handheld will get me.
 
If SNES DQs didn't really have as much grinding as you say, then color me interested.

Also, FFIV's story always did seem like it made up as they went along, but at least the characters developed naturally. Except for Kain who kept betraying everyone after apologizing and promising not to do it again multiple times. I've thought about going to Namingway and renaming him something really terrible as punishment.
 
I had alot of fun with DQVIII, but it was my first DQ so I didn't really have any expectations to begin with. I liked the music and generally colorful feel of the world.

The story was kinda eh, but really what rpg stories aren't. Its the characters that make the story seem so interesting, and I liked how simple they were in VIII, no crazy identity issues or anxiety of the world on their shoulders.
 
[quote name='kainzero']I don't know how many times I need to say this, but if you don't wanna grind, DON'T GRIND. From 4-6, I don't remember doing any grinding at all. Heck, I'll go into a cave the first time, collect all the treasure, exit out and rest and come back in. Since I know the map, it takes me a lot quicker to clear it. And look, no grinding!

And last I checked, the story is never "we need dynamite to clear the rock!" I love how each town has its own little quirk and a clear message, and I love how it's resolved. The subplots in DQ7 were tremendous... exposing fake kings, following a love story. And the environment in DQ7 was great even though the graphics were crappy. When you walk into a desolate town, you know it is. You can feel the anxiety and the despair, the music kicks in, the writing reflects their mood. No other JRPG has that.

It's also funny because the overarching plot, I think, isn't even that strong, just your typical kill the foozle. It's the journey that really makes it for you.


How is the gameplay dated? Does it even matter? I'll take the dated gameplay of Super Metroid over any of the Metroid Primes. I'll take the dated gameplay of Super Mario World over Galaxy. Even Etrian Odyssey's dated gameplay is celebrated.
The story was cliche? I don't care. They pulled it off very well. So many people are trying to make these mindblowing plots with a billion twists that it was just nice to sit back and relax to a straightforward and simple plot like DQ. There were no plot holes and everything concluded perfectly; I can't think of a better ending. I think Symphonia had one of the most cliched plots ever but it was executed so well that I didn't mind.

The character development is fine. If you've played an American RPG, there's not much character development there either, but they're all fine. It's just that JRPGs are still stuck and deluded into having characters with a deep problem rooted somewhere in the past that you eventually have to fix. In DQ8, for the amount of dialogue that Prince Charmles has they really did a great job of characterizing and villainizing him. When you finally get to the lake and temporarily remove the Princess's curse, all those little talks really got to me and actually made me care about her. I didn't care about Yuna and making sure she got all her Eidolons. I didn't care about Tidus wanting to be the best Blitzball player ever. DQ8 MADE you care.

As for the battle system, DQ is plenty complex. Again, you have to manage your MP as soon as you leave the town. Cast too many spells and you won't have any for the boss, don't cast enough and those monsters will kill you. If you fight a boss who takes two turns and hits for 60 damage and has the ability to debuff your party, and your caster only has 130 HP, what do you do? Do you cast speedup and hope he doesn't debuff? Do you set your caster to auto AI so that he can react as soon as he gets hurt? Do you parry and use your weaker caster to heal for only 40 HP? Maybe you defend? Or how about psyching up to give your defense buff a little more oomph? When do you cast your attack buff on your main attacker? FF 10's sphere grid was okay but in the end it was just needlessly complicated. For the most part it was completely linear to a point. And most of the random battles were unchallenging. None of the random battles in FF 10 made me think or have any urgency... whereas if someone dies in a random battle in DQ8, you gotta trek all the way back to town to resurrect.[/QUOTE]

Ok see here are the two differences between us that make it so we can never agree.

1. Your stuck in the past. You grew up on a certain type of game and dont want to leave them. Most of the new games in series have evolved the gameplay and for the better. Most of us are happy with it but a small minority are not. You see depth in the old style of gameplay where we just see bleh. Thats fine, but again its weak in comparison to the rest of us.

2. You preffer sub plot to main plot. Most of us are pissed and it seems reviewers mark games down for straying from the main plot. I enjoy whenever a town here or there has sub plot missions that are deep....but for the most part I think these should stay side quests so as to not interfere with the main quest. DQ is a series that has a very weak main plot but does focus more on sub plots.

And one last thing before we quit. Again difference between us is you cant see past what YOU care about and what others probably will. DQVIII had a handful of small scenes that made you care. Meanwhile we saw Tidus and company having scenes of mental break down, we saw scenes like where Tidus learns of Yunas fate and what the party was hiding from him........stuff like that regardless of what you say is soooo much deeper then DQVIIIs blazeh talks. I seriously think you just like what you like and justify that its better however you must. Its impossible to argue that something like DQVIII with so few scenes developing its charcters tops FFX which ranks among the top charcter development RPGs probally ever(every charcter had numerous scenes developing their background and who they were, and they were all interconnected).

Say what you will, you can make the argument that DQ wins in gameplay and for the NES-SNES you would make some good points(though again VIII is a joke, give it up already balancing MP is not gameplay every game has this to different extents)but when it comes to story you just cant compare the DQ series to most RPGs, especially not the FF games after the NES era.
 
[quote name='kainzero']
The character development is fine. If you've played an American RPG, there's not much character development there either, but they're all fine. It's just that JRPGs are still stuck and deluded into having characters with a deep problem rooted somewhere in the past that you eventually have to fix. In DQ8, for the amount of dialogue that Prince Charmles has they really did a great job of characterizing and villainizing him. When you finally get to the lake and temporarily remove the Princess's curse, all those little talks really got to me and actually made me care about her. I didn't care about Yuna and making sure she got all her Eidolons. I didn't care about Tidus wanting to be the best Blitzball player ever. DQ8 MADE you care.[/quote]
Look I enjoyed DQ8... But most of the characters could have easily been killed off and I wouldn't have cared a bit. Except for Jessica... and that only becuase she was a well "developed" character.
 
[quote name='Chibi_Kaji']Look I enjoyed DQ8... But most of the characters could have easily been killed off and I wouldn't have cared a bit. Except for Jessica... and that only becuase she was a well "developed" character.[/QUOTE]

Hehe same. Jessica was the only "developed" character in the game and she was also the only one I cared about. But why settle when you can have Lulu who was developed in both senses of the word!
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Hehe same. Jessica was the only "developed" character in the game and she was also the only one I cared about. But why settle when you can have Lulu who was developed in both senses of the word![/quote]
I wasn't comparing the two of them. Because there would be no contest there, Lulu would win. But Jessica might stand a chance if we were talking about FFX2 Lulu...
 
[quote name='kainzero']The story was cliche? I don't care. They pulled it off very well. So many people are trying to make these mindblowing plots with a billion twists that it was just nice to sit back and relax to a straightforward and simple plot like DQ. There were no plot holes and everything concluded perfectly; I can't think of a better ending. I think Symphonia had one of the most cliched plots ever but it was executed so well that I didn't mind.[/quote]
What fucking genre are you playing? The last time someone attempted a "mindblowing plot with a billion twists" was maybe Xenogears or Chrono Cross. 90% of RPGs have the same story.

As for the battle system, DQ is plenty complex. Again, you have to manage your MP as soon as you leave the town. Cast too many spells and you won't have any for the boss, don't cast enough and those monsters will kill you.
...
And most of the random battles were unchallenging. None of the random battles in FF 10 made me think or have any urgency... whereas if someone dies in a random battle in DQ8, you gotta trek all the way back to town to resurrect.
Click to expand...
Forcing you to not use your interesting skills, and hit Attack all the time until you get to the boss is not complexity. Taking away the ability to revive a teammate easily is, IMO, a punishment, not a challenge.
 
[quote name='pete5883']What fucking genre are you playing? The last time someone attempted a "mindblowing plot with a billion twists" was maybe Xenogears or Chrono Cross. 90% of RPGs have the same story.


Forcing you to not use your interesting skills, and hit Attack all the time until you get to the boss is not complexity. Taking away the ability to revive a teammate easily is, IMO, a punishment, not a challenge.[/QUOTE]

Im so tired of hearing that 90% of RPGs have the same story. If you simplify them to the lowest common similarties of saving the world, love story or orphen child yes. But just for an example using FFX which we have been discussing. [spoilers]Point out the many other games that reveal the main charcter is just a dream and the society he came from is also but a dream[/spoilers]

Games share similarties but are different on many ends. And some like FFX, VII, Planescape Torment and using one of yours Xeno truly do their own thing.
 
I don't think you need spoilers for FFX. The game has been out for nearly seven years. If anyone hasn't played it yet, they won't anytime soon.

Is Final Fantasy too easy? Probably. I think it's easier for me because I'm more familiar with the spells, summons, and items. Esuna has cured status ailments for as long as I can remember and it's easy to pick up any new gameplay mechanics like the Gambit system in XII and the Sphere Grid in X.

DQVIII seemed hard before even getting to the meat and potatoes. If all I can do is attack, use the simplest magic, and most basic items, the first boss shouldn't be a big challenge. For some reason, the first boss in DQVIII was for me. I even had a friend of mine try it out and he got blasted on the way to the boss. We finally beat the boss after grinding an hour to level everyone up so we didn't have someone die in the first minute of the boss battle. That's not difficulty, that's broken gameplay.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I don't think you need spoilers for FFX. The game has been out for nearly seven years. If anyone hasn't played it yet, they won't anytime soon.

Is Final Fantasy too easy? Probably. I think it's easier for me because I'm more familiar with the spells, summons, and items. Esuna has cured status ailments for as long as I can remember and it's easy to pick up any new gameplay mechanics like the Gambit system in XII and the Sphere Grid in X.

DQVIII seemed hard before even getting to the meat and potatoes. If all I can do is attack, use the simplest magic, and most basic items, the first boss shouldn't be a big challenge. For some reason, the first boss in DQVIII was for me. I even had a friend of mine try it out and he got blasted on the way to the boss. We finally beat the boss after grinding an hour to level everyone up so we didn't have someone die in the first minute of the boss battle. That's not difficulty, that's broken gameplay.[/QUOTE]

And thats the problem with DQ. The options early game and even late game less you grind like crazy are just so limited. It means there is no real depth to the gameplay. Its just conserve mp vs expend it, conserve items or expend them and a very small handfull of skills or weapons to choose between. Lack of options should not be considered depth.
 
[quote name='pete5883']What fucking genre are you playing? The last time someone attempted a "mindblowing plot with a billion twists" was maybe Xenogears or Chrono Cross. 90% of RPGs have the same story.[/quote]
Maybe "mindblowing plot" was a bit of hyperbole but it seems like all the JRPGs lead up to a bunch of plot twists that aren't really interesting. The last RPGs I've played were VP2 and SO3, both of which went for epic and twisted plots.

[quote name='MSI Magus']Im so tired of hearing that 90% of RPGs have the same story. If you simplify them to the lowest common similarties of saving the world, love story or orphen child yes. But just for an example using FFX which we have been discussing.
Point out the many other games that reveal the main charcter is just a dream and the society he came from is also but a dream
[/quote]
FF 10?
Well there's the global fetch quest that results in you actually fetching for the enemy. It's a really common theme.
There's the whole "the church is evil" thing which has been done since Breath of Fire 2 and repeated in Xenogears and Grandia 2.
Oh and the part about you being a dream? Yeah. They did that. In Dragon Quest 6.
Here's the thing. I liked FF 10. It's not about how many cliches you can throw in the game, but how it's executed. FF 10 did a great job with the story. Tales of Symphonia, nearly a carbon copy of FF10, I liked even more.

[quote name='pete5883']Forcing you to not use your interesting skills, and hit Attack all the time until you get to the boss is not complexity. Taking away the ability to revive a teammate easily is, IMO, a punishment, not a challenge.[/quote]
[quote name='depascal22']DQVIII seemed hard before even getting to the meat and potatoes. If all I can do is attack, use the simplest magic, and most basic items, the first boss shouldn't be a big challenge. For some reason, the first boss in DQVIII was for me. I even had a friend of mine try it out and he got blasted on the way to the boss. We finally beat the boss after grinding an hour to level everyone up so we didn't have someone die in the first minute of the boss battle. That's not difficulty, that's broken gameplay.[/quote]
[quote name='MSI Magus']And thats the problem with DQ. The options early game and even late game less you grind like crazy are just so limited. It means there is no real depth to the gameplay. Its just conserve mp vs expend it, conserve items or expend them and a very small handfull of skills or weapons to choose between. Lack of options should not be considered depth.[/quote]
I'll address the battle system.
Pete: And why not use your skills? It's about MP conservation. If I'm gonna hit a group of 6 mummies, you damn well better believe I'm casting my fireball spell because if I don't, my healer will be wasting a bunch of MP casting healing spells. As for the death part, it's finely balanced. Having someone die is not something that'll make you reset the game, as opposed to Fire Emblem where if someone dies they're gone forever.

Depascal: The first boss was kinda hard, but again you can do a lot with the tools they give you. The defend command is so underrated in DQ and it allows you to survive a lot of things that would otherwise kill you. That, combined with some psyche ups to increase your heal power can get you through.

Magus: Early game, fine, you might need to grind. But late game grinding? Really? When you hit midgame the game becomes much easier than early game. Your skills begin to round out and overpower the enemies. As for options and depth, I'll just say that Street Fighter 2 Turbo is considered one of the deeper fighting games out there, whereas Alpha 3 with all its various -isms, alpha counters, airblocking, etc is not.
 
[quote name='kainzero']Tales of Symphonia, nearly a carbon copy of FF10, I liked even more.[/quote]

ToS is not even close to being a copy of FF10. Did you really play both games?
 
That's the problem though. A game should get harder as you get into the game instead of right off the bat.

Case in point, you don't have any (or very minimal) healing magic at the beginning of most FFs. And really, all you need is Cure at the beginning. Then, the monsters get more difficult and you need Cura and Esuna because they start casting Poison or Silence. The games build up in difficulty but they give you the tools needed to succeed.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']ToS is not even close to being a copy of FF10. Did you really play both games?[/quote]

Story wise they're pretty close. Colette and Yuna are nearly clones. Both are "saviors" that are being manipulated by their religions. Both decide to rebel in the end and are helped by young guys that are in way over their head (Lloyd, Tidus).

Again, these games shouldn't need spoilers because they've been out for more than five years. If you're in the RPG thread and haven't played ToS or FFX, turn off the computer, and go play them ASAP.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']ToS is not even close to being a copy of FF10. Did you really play both games?[/QUOTE]

He seems to generalize plot down to incredibly stupid points based on any shared similarity to any other RPG. They both have a plot involving religion so forget the whole 2 planets thing, forget the whole im just a dream thing, forget everything you know about either plot because they both contain religion as tools!

I saw his post earlier and figured it was best to just ignore it.....I would just let him live in the dream world he seems to want to live in......
 
[quote name='depascal22']Story wise they're pretty close. Colette and Yuna are nearly clones. Both are "saviors" that are being manipulated by their religions. Both decide to rebel in the end and are helped by young guys that are in way over their head (Lloyd, Tidus).

Again, these games shouldn't need spoilers because they've been out for more than five years. If you're in the RPG thread and haven't played ToS or FFX, turn off the computer, and go play them ASAP.[/QUOTE]

On spoilers. Id still be careful. There are so many good games that come out anymore that it can be hard to keep up with them all. On story, again they share alot of similarties but the overall plot is quite a bit different.
 
[quote name='MarkMan']If it matters any.

I think Persona 3 trumped both recent FF and DQ entries (FF XII and DQ VIII respectively)...

Word.[/QUOTE]
So true. Though Tales beats them all.
 
[quote name='MarkMan']If it matters any.

I think Persona 3 trumped both recent FF and DQ entries (FF XII and DQ VIII respectively)...

Word.[/quote]

Indeed.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']So true. Though Tales beats them all.[/QUOTE]

Depends on how recently we are looking at. Personally id say

FFX > or is = ToS(its hard to call this but I give a slight edge to X) > Persona 3 > ToA > FFXII > ToL

Overall series wise its hard to call. ToA and ToS were great but ToL was really a stinker which brought the series down a notch or two IMO. Persona only had 1 entry so hard to fairly call that. FFX I think was a defining game this generation(as was ToS)however XII was just an average entry.
 
I didn't really find anything "definitive" about Final Fantasy X, it just put a prettier skin on the PS1 formula. The Sphere Grid was basically just a visual representation of standard leveling bonuses.

The funniest thing about FF X is that the random encounters never grew more complicated than the initial tutorial fights. Red monsters always died when ice spells hit them, etc.
 
Yeah, FFX wasn't exactly innovative outside of the sheer number of cinematics it had, but I still thought it was a really, really enjoyable game. But it is annoying when people pretend like it's one of the most inventive RPGs ever or something like that.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I didn't really find anything "definitive" about Final Fantasy X, it just put a prettier skin on the PS1 formula. The Sphere Grid was basically just a visual representation of standard leveling bonuses.

The funniest thing about FF X is that the random encounters never grew more complicated than the initial tutorial fights. Red monsters always died when ice spells hit them, etc.[/QUOTE]

1. The Sphere grid was more then just the basic level up formula. It let you determine how you would grow both by busting into others grids as well as choosing a few different routes. It also made you choose which spheres to use at times for skills or other stuff. For instance warping panels or learn a skill thats already been learned. It wasnt the most amazing skill system ever, I think materia was still better was were non FF entries such as SO2. But the Sphere grid was a great way of learning skills and leveling, and for this gen one of the best.

2. The battles offered more then that. Elemental attacks and breaking came into play, and later in the game you had to decide if you wanted to bother with these or power level extra charcter skills or weapon skills to not have to bother with the switching in and out(which was another nice feature). Personally I ended up with a party only consisting of 3 charcters who focused on Hasterga/Quick hit combo vs a rotation stratagy.

3. The charcters and the story in X are unrivaled. Gameplay and skill system wise we can argue back and forth between it and certain other entries such as Persona and ToS(both of which were great and I might even give them a nod over FFX). However objectivly FFX brought more charcter development to the table then not just any game this gen but pretty much any game ever. Only a handful of games iv ever played such as CT and FFVI had even close to as many scenes dealing with characters backgrounds or having charcters work through complex emotions which make you understand who they are. While ToS I might understand giving a nod to here over FFX(its a hell of a debate if you try and do it objectivly)Persona does not even compete. On the story front there really is no competition this gen.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']Yeah, FFX wasn't exactly innovative outside of the sheer number of cinematics it had, but I still thought it was a really, really enjoyable game. But it is annoying when people pretend like it's one of the most inventive RPGs ever or something like that.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was inventive. Just damn good.
 
The best thing about FFX was the ability to swap characters out during a battle. It's the most realistic approximation to real combat. It never made sense to me that a group of people would be walking around some dangerous areas but only 3 or 4 could take part in battle. Either tell me that they can't leave the central location like KOTOR or let me use them all in battle like FFX. Are there any other RPGs that do that? If not, it makes FFX's battle system a little inventive.
 
[quote name='depascal22']The best thing about FFX was the ability to swap characters out during a battle. It's the most realistic approximation to real combat. It never made sense to me that a group of people would be walking around some dangerous areas but only 3 or 4 could take part in battle. Either tell me that they can't leave the central location like KOTOR or let me use them all in battle like FFX. Are there any other RPGs that do that? If not, it makes FFX's battle system a little inventive.[/QUOTE]

Not common but not inventive. Several games like BoF IV had done it before. Hell im pretty sure going all the way back to the early 90s that the first BoF did it.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']

3. The charcters and the story in X are unrivaled. Gameplay and skill system wise we can argue back and forth between it and certain other entries such as Persona and ToS(both of which were great and I might even give them a nod over FFX). However objectivly FFX brought more charcter development to the table then not just any game this gen but pretty much any game ever. Only a handful of games iv ever played such as CT and FFVI had even close to as many scenes dealing with characters backgrounds or having charcters work through complex emotions which make you understand who they are. While ToS I might understand giving a nod to here over FFX(its a hell of a debate if you try and do it objectivly)Persona does not even compete. On the story front there really is no competition this gen.[/QUOTE]
I really liked FFX, but I'm going to have to disagree here. Legendia destroys FFX when it comes to characters. More than half of the game is devoted to just developing the characters and their backgrounds.

Scenes like when Chloe stabs Senel, the man she loves, as he tries to stop her from killing the man who ruined her family and her life or even Norma's backstory where you learn that the reason she acts the way she does is to honor her dead mentor.
 
You should definitely give the series a try.

I prefer IV, and overall I think its the highest-rated entry. III has a bad control scheme (no camera control, digital only) if that's a problem. III also lacks party switching.

If you play games really often then start with the first.
 
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