Sacre Blue! I wouldn't want to be old and French this summer!

CTLesq

CTLesq

CAGiversary!
I am thankful this isn't part of my healthcare plan:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050621/sc_afp/europeweather_050621203050

Heat, drought back haunting Europe on first day of summer
1 hour, 46 minutes ago



PARIS (AFP) - With tens of thousands of deaths in a sizzling summer of 2003 still fresh on people's minds, Europe suffered in a new heat wave the first day of summer, while farmers warned of a historic drought.

http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12fs735...php?o=US1445&cmp=Yahoo_ntwk&ctv=chalk-300x250In Paris, the health ministry ordered authorities in three counties to activate their heat wave plans after they were informed that "the current wave could present a health risk for the population as of June 21."
Record temperatures for mid-June have been registered in northern France, with the thermometer registering 35.7 degrees Celsius (97 F) on the outskirts of Paris Monday.

The heat has already killed a 41-year-old marathon runner who died in hospital after collapsing during the 24th kilometer (15th mile) of a race at the picturesque Mont Saint Michel in Normandy on Sunday.

Also worried were farmers in Portugal, where rising temperatures are likely to worsen an already stinging drought -- the worse the country has seen in 60 years.

According to the national water institute, as of mid-June 50 percent of mainland Portugal is suffering from extreme drought, and another 30 percent is witnessing a "severe" drought.

The aridity has already caused serious damage to the country's agriculture, with an expected 70 percent drop in cereal production and a 30 to 92 percent fall in fodder and pasture that has pushed up meat prices.

In neighboring Spain, the environment ministry warned that water reserves were barely half full.

The south is particularly hard hit, with rivers flowing at barely 15 percent of their capacity, the ministry said.

Since May, temperatures have often surged above 40 degrees Celsius (104 F), and the national weather institute predicted that "temperatures will be 1 to 2 degrees higher than usual from July to September."

A Spanish government emergency plan -- including a loan of 750 million euros (900 million dollars) to compensate farmers from the effects of the drought -- came into effect Tuesday. Farmers and breeders associations say they have so far suffered a loss of 1.5 billion euros (1.8 billion dollars).

Gardeners were banned from watering their plants in Spain, but also in Belgium where the temperatures rose over 30 degrees Celsuis (86 F) on Monday in the north of the country.

Water is only likely to last until mid-July, farmers in the northern Italian Po Valley warned, while Water UK said Britain had lived through its fourth driest November-to-May period since 1914.

While many Europeans were complaining of the stifling heat, Swedes basked in the first warm rays of sunshine on Tuesday.

Many flocked into parks and outdoor restaurants to enjoy the sun late into the evening, since the sun does not set in June in parts of northern Sweden.

The official start of summer, June 21, is the summer solstice, when the sun is farthest north.

In 2003, some 15,000 people died in France alone in a widespread health emergency sparked by two weeks of stifling temperatures.
 
Death due to heat waves really aren't that terribly uncommon in the US, either. Its pretty stupid to try to use this to criticize the French healthcare system.
 
not the health care system's fault that people over on that side of the world think air conditioning is a window that opens up
 
The aridity has already caused serious damage to the country's agriculture, with an expected 30 to 92 percent fall in fodder and pasture that has pushed up meat prices.

My god, what kind of figure is that?!

So, the livestock is either going to get hit pretty bad, or is totally fucked?
 
[quote name='Ledhed']The aridity has already caused serious damage to the country's agriculture, with an expected 30 to 92 percent fall in fodder and pasture that has pushed up meat prices.

My god, what kind of figure is that?!

So, the livestock is either going to get hit pretty bad, or is totally fucked?[/QUOTE]

I typically turn on my partisan helmet in the VS forums; I admit I didn't notice the statistic. That's great, though.

30 to 90%? :rofl:

myke.
...I'll take those odds. vBookie anyone?
 
[quote name='Drocket']Death due to heat waves really aren't that terribly uncommon in the US, either. Its pretty stupid to try to use this to criticize the French healthcare system.[/QUOTE]

But the difference is Drocket, we don't pretend to take care of our citizens, nor do we lose 15K at the drop of a hat.

Anything to criticize the US?

Viva la France!
 
It's cute reading CTL's staunch belief that French people not owning air conditioners is somehow tied into their healthcare system. :bouncy:
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']It's cute reading CTL's staunch belief that French people not owning air conditioners is somehow tied into their healthcare system. :bouncy:[/QUOTE]

Mon cher ami!

The world has laid the blame of the 15K dead at the feet of the French government for not having a plan to take care of their elderly citizens and you think I view this as a matter of not having central air.....
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Mon cher ami!

The world has laid the blame of the 15K dead at the feet of the French government for not having a plan to take care of their elderly citizens and you think I view this as a matter of not having central air.....[/QUOTE]

France typically does not get heat waves like this. They never needed air conditioners until the past few years. You know how hard it is to get an old person to turn on an air conditioner anyway, much less even open a window?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Mon cher ami!

The world has laid the blame of the 15K dead at the feet of the French government for not having a plan to take care of their elderly citizens and you think I view this as a matter of not having central air.....[/QUOTE]

I'm sure we more than offset France's heat-related deaths with our own gun-related deaths, so we still win. USA! USA! USA! :roll:
 
[quote name='Backlash']Heh, it's been in the upper 90s here (Dallas TX) for weeks. I expect it'll be over 100 pretty soon. Yay AC![/QUOTE]

Frara Jacque, Frara Jacque

And you will survive because you are not old and French depending on the French Government.
 
Depending on the gov my butt. I'll survive b/c I realize that when it's hot out I need A/C. People in Europe that have been able to get by with open windows (it's not just France) need to realize that it is getting hotter out there. Window A/C units aren't that expensive (of course central A/C is better).
 
A couple of years ago, a guy who lived across the street from me died during a heatwave. He was outside mowing his lawn on one of the hottest days of the year, had a heart attack, and died. Technically, he died of a heart attack, but the cause of the heart attack was the heat (and if you'll check the statistics underlying the 15,000 dead in France, you'll find that 'heat-related fatalities' are included, unlike the US who usually only uses heat-stroke deaths in their heat-wave statistics. 400/year, BTW.) Clearly, his death can be put at the feet of the US government - its entirely their fault he was too stupid to go into his air conditioned house and sit down, instead choosing to kill himself because his lawn was 1/2 inch higher than the way he liked it.

As I already said, 400 people per year die in the US due to heat stroke. Clearly, all of those deaths can be blamed on the US goverment. If we get as liberal as the French statistics, using any sort of 'heat-related death' in the count, it rises to tens, if not hundreds, of thousands. In the 2003 heatwave in France, 15,000 people also died in England - clearly also the fault of the French government.

I wrote about 2 paragraphs discussing global warming's impact on this event, but them a government agent from the Bush administration broke in, beat me up and deleted it all, so I'll just skip writing it all out again.
 
Le car.

Drocket you can try to explain away all you want that people die from the heat every day.

The problem is the French lost 15K because their government sucks.

You conviently gloss over that.
 
I'm not making a case for or against the French gov, but isn't the fault of the death for most of those people their own stupidity? Why is it the gov's fault?

We need a lot more personal responsibility in this world - both in the US and other countries. If it's hot, stay somewhere cool and drink lots of water. Not rocket science.
 
[quote name='Backlash']I'm not making a case for or against the French gov, but isn't the fault of the death for most of those people their own stupidity? Why is it the gov's fault?

We need a lot more personal responsibility in this world - both in the US and other countries. If it's hot, stay somewhere cool and drink lots of water. Not rocket science.[/QUOTE]

It was a health crisis and the French have national health "care", so the deaths of those 15,000 inoccent elderly Frenchmen/women are at the feet of Chirac.

I wonder if his presidential accomodations came with A/C?
 
I see what you're saying, but this shouldn't have been a health crisis in the first place - that's my point. If there was some unpreventable natural disaster that left many wounded who later died (a heat wave doesn't qualify IMO) then you could blame it on the gov I guess.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Wow, just 15,000?

That's a very efficient national health care plan that just allows 15,000 people to die during the summer because of heat.[/QUOTE]

Uh, how is it the fault of health care policy that people die of heat stroke and dehydration?
 
Governments have frequently used risk management techniques to identify threats, and control risks at different levels: prevention, damage control etc.

Unfortunately in France the government failed spectacularly from the start, by not confronting politically tough, but conveniently well hidden, issues like labor law, building design and social capital that contributed to the disaster. As the death toll rose their second mistake was to downplay and deny the disaster for the sake of political expediency in a manner that ultimately contributed to even more deaths.
 
So what exactly is the US government doing to prevent the hundreds of thousands of heat-related deaths that occur in the US every single year? The 2003 French heatwave only stands out because France is so commonly a relatively cool country. Far, far more people die in the US every single year from heat-related causes than died in France and are simply shrugged off. If we're going to blame France for not being prepared to deal with an unexpected temperature shift, how much more blame should be put on the US for not being prepared for something that happens here every single year?
 
[quote name='Backlash']I see what you're saying, but this shouldn't have been a health crisis in the first place - that's my point. If there was some unpreventable natural disaster that left many wounded who later died (a heat wave doesn't qualify IMO) then you could blame it on the gov I guess.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps if the Homo-Child-Molesting-Socialist-French-Cheese-Eating-Surrender-Monkey French Government had been responsive to its citizens needs this disaster could have been diverted.

Instead Chirac dreamed of French Napoleonic granduer while his citizens roasted like a Sabret's hot dog at a Yankees game in October.
 
Heh heh. I have nothing against the French but that made me smile.

On another note, I don't usually ever agree with CTL, but the knee-jerk reaction of some of the posters in here to compare the US (in a negative light) to other countries every time something is posted about other countries is getting pretty old.

CTL or PAD: Something has happened in another country. Neener neener.
Drocket, et al: Well, that may be, but the US sucks worse.
 
[quote name='Backlash']Heh heh. I have nothing against the French but that made me smile.

On another note, I don't usually ever agree with CTL, but the knee-jerk reaction of some of the posters in here to compare the US (in a negative light) to other countries every time something is posted about other countries is getting pretty old.

CTL or PAD: Something has happened in another country. Neener neener.
Drocket, et al: Well, that may be, but the US sucks worse.[/QUOTE]

We all have something against the homo-French.

Excellent post.
 
[quote name='Drocket']So what exactly is the US government doing to prevent the hundreds of thousands of heat-related deaths that occur in the US every single year? The 2003 French heatwave only stands out because France is so commonly a relatively cool country. Far, far more people die in the US every single year from heat-related causes than died in France and are simply shrugged off. If we're going to blame France for not being prepared to deal with an unexpected temperature shift, how much more blame should be put on the US for not being prepared for something that happens here every single year?[/QUOTE]


Wait a sec. I was reading that the US averages 400 heat related deaths a year. That's a big difference between 15,000 in a two week period.
 
[quote name='Admiral Ackbar']Wait a sec. I was reading that the US averages 400 heat related deaths a year. That's a big difference between 15,000 in a two week period.[/QUOTE]
Those 400 deaths are the deaths due to heat stroke. The vast majority of deaths are 'heat-related', often heart attacks brought on by the extra stress on the body caused by the high heat.

In terms of saying that 'the US sucks more', I'm just pointing out that its pretty stupid and petty looking to point out the flaws of others when we have the exact same problems here, and don't even consider them worth a mention. The fact that the French government is even trying to do something about the 'problem' (and whether it even is a problem that the government has some responsibility for is debatable) puts them ahead of us.

Anyway, its a case of pot calling the kettle black, people who live in glass houses, he who is without sin, yadda, yadda, yadda...
 
I'm sorry drocket, I think you're factually incorrect. There are clear determinations on what is a heat related death. For example, if it's hot out, and a man has a stroke, that may have been a slight contributing factor but that wasn't necessarily a heat related death. I think you're mistaking people who have heat-related deaths and who died on hot days. A man who dies on a hot day from liver failure wouldn't be classified as a heat related death, even if heat was a slight factor. The cause of death would be liver failure. And I'm sure the French make this distinction as well in tallying their numbers.

And according to the CDC, they don't say heat stroke, they say heat related in quoting the numbers of heat related deaths. And they include both heat stroke and ascerbation of diseases where heat was a contibuting factor. I'm pretty sure that the French would be using similar measuring stiicks for heat related deaths as the US based on international medical standards. Is it the same, not necessarily. But I'm sure there are similarities.

(In the paper I'm referencing, the CDC is using the "International Classifications of Diseases, Ninth Revision (ICD-9), code E900.0" in defining "heat related deaths" and I would think the french medical community would use the same international standards.)

So, if the french are using the same standards as the US, or very similar international standards, and using those same standards the US averages 400 heat related deaths a year while the French have 15,000 in a two week period, then that's a huge problem and you can't just say that the US counts "heat related deaths" differently. It minimizes the seriousness of the problems occuring in France. Which would be nearly forty times worse than our national average.

But let me also say one thing that somewhat bothers me about this thread. I've been speaking in a clinically detached fashion, but I find it dissapointing that there's so much racism against the French people. And the whole point of this thread does not seem to be the discussion of a serious health crisis in europe or to bring attention to how heat can kill the elderly, but basically, to make racist remarks against the french.
 
[quote name='Admiral Ackbar']I'm sorry drocket, I think you're factually incorrect. There are clear determinations on what is a heat related death. For example, if it's hot out, and a man has a stroke, that may have been a slight contributing factor but that wasn't necessarily a heat related death. I think you're mistaking people who have heat-related deaths and who died on hot days. A man who dies on a hot day from liver failure wouldn't be classified as a heat related death, even if heat was a slight factor. The cause of death would be liver failure. And I'm sure the French make this distinction as well in tallying their numbers.[/QUOTE]

Heatstroke =/= stroke.

The US has about 400 heatstroke deaths per year, but has tens of thousands of heat related deaths.

A heat related death is when heat directly causes whatever the person dies of.


Comparing 15,000 heat related deaths in France to 400 cases of heatstroke in the US is like saying people in France are heavy drinkers because they drink more alcohol than we drink wine.

It is irrelevant and stupid.


You are usually smart, but this time you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']the Homo-Child-Molesting-Socialist-French-Cheese-Eating-Surrender-Monkey French [/QUOTE]

From a well-educated lawyer...
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Perhaps if the Homo-Child-Molesting-Socialist-French-Cheese-Eating-Surrender-Monkey French Government[/quote]

I think someone needs a blowjob :whistle2:\" :bouncy: .
 
Hopefully, we'll never have the same problem here in the U.S. but the following scenario could happen. The midwest could beging seeing record heat waves due to global warming (temperatures above 105 F minimum). As pointed out earlier, most logical people will avoid working and simply turn on their air conditioning. Now the electrical grid is suddenly overloaded so roaming brownouts are necessary. Lots of people end up dying over the next couple of weeks. Damn, we better get started on universal health care to help prevent those people from dying! Seriously, though, it is difficult for any country to plan for natural disasters. I'd like to think we are the best in the world in that respect, but we have not truly been tested up to this point.
 
[quote name='Admiral Ackbar']
But let me also say one thing that somewhat bothers me about this thread. I've been speaking in a clinically detached fashion, but I find it dissapointing that there's so much racism against the French people. And the whole point of this thread does not seem to be the discussion of a serious health crisis in europe or to bring attention to how heat can kill the elderly, but basically, to make racist remarks against the french.[/QUOTE]

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure." --- Jacques Chirac, President of France.
"As far as France is concerned, you're right." --- Rush Limbaugh


The French are not a race, therefore one cannot be "racist" towards them.
 
"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure." --- Jacques Chirac, President of France.
Click to expand...

When anyone else makes similar comments it is interpreted to mean, essentially, that all war is bad since all you end up with is people dead. When the french say it you think it has something to do with retreat/surrender etc.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Wow, you just quoted Rush Limbaugh to make a point.

Are you that stupid?[/QUOTE]

Do you not have a sense of humor?

I hate that fat idiot but the quote was amusing.

Today 12:04 PMalonzomourning23
When anyone else makes similar comments it is interpreted to mean, essentially, that all war is bad since all you end up with is people dead. When the french say it you think it has something to do with retreat/surrender etc.

***
Because thats all the French do - retreat to surrender several hundred yards from there they started.
 
[quote name='coffman']Hopefully, we'll never have the same problem here in the U.S. but the following scenario could happen. The midwest could beging seeing record heat waves due to global warming (temperatures above 105 F minimum). As pointed out earlier, most logical people will avoid working and simply turn on their air conditioning. Now the electrical grid is suddenly overloaded so roaming brownouts are necessary. Lots of people end up dying over the next couple of weeks. Damn, we better get started on universal health care to help prevent those people from dying! Seriously, though, it is difficult for any country to plan for natural disasters. I'd like to think we are the best in the world in that respect, but we have not truly been tested up to this point.[/QUOTE]

I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think that particular example would happen. Everyone is already running the A/C once the temp gets above, say, 90 degrees which it does every summer. Maybe if alaska had a freak heat wave or something.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']So, your answer is as bullshit as your interpretation, gotcha.[/QUOTE]

Historically prove me wrong after 1815.
 
Well, germany never did get past france in WW1. Any european country was going to lose to germany in WW2, the u.k. is lucky they were an island. And pretty much every country lost their colonies (and we didn't fare much better in vietnam).

Though you didn't want to mention the whole history of actually helping us become a country though.

Even if they were blown out of the water with every military confrontation, the interpretation of that statement is still bullshit.
 
[quote name='Backlash']I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think that particular example would happen. Everyone is already running the A/C once the temp gets above, say, 90 degrees which it does every summer. Maybe if alaska had a freak heat wave or something.[/QUOTE]

Believe it or not, there are lots of people who don't use their air conditioners unless it gets really hot. Every now and then where I live (PA) when it gets really hot during the summer there are pleas for people to limit their air conditioning use.
 
The amount of electricity air conditioners use is dependant upon the temperature. When its sorta hot, the AC will run for a while, shut off, run again, shut off, etc - its not necessary for it to run continuously. The hotter it gets, the longer it has to run between shutoffs, and if it gets really hot, it may have to run constantly (and if your AC is running constantly on most days, it means you need a bigger AC.)
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Well, germany never did get past france in WW1.[/quote]

But France won nothing in that war. And they were so demoralized from it they failed to act before WWII when they could have put an end to Hitler.

[quote name='alonzomourning23'] Any european country was going to lose to germany in WW2, the u.k. is lucky they were an island. And pretty much every country lost their colonies (and we didn't fare much better in vietnam).[/quote]

What Viet Nam (originally a French Colony) has to do with 190 years of straight French military defeats as it relates to the US is beyond me.

The French still were occupied in WWII right? Do you disput the Maginot line was a joke?

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Though you didn't want to mention the whole history of actually helping us become a country though.[/quote]

Hence my qualification after 1815.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Even if they were blown out of the water with every military confrontation, the interpretation of that statement is still bullshit.[/QUOTE]

And the French military victory (I don't even have to say victories) you would cite to dispute it?
 
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