SHAQ-FU Valve AND their DRM

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tsunami_bomb3r

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I hate valve. I hate DRM. I hate e-mail customer support.

after my 2nd message, they CLOSED the support thread. wtf? since when was customer service allowed to hang up on you? I mean, aren't they there to HELP you? also, that last line is GOLDEN.
[quote name='Steam Support']

1 Message by you on Wed, 6th Feb 2008 4:37 pm
my computer is a macbook pro. i installed bootcamp then installed steam then installed the orange box. for various reasons technical, personal, and idiotic, i deleted my vista partition. for the forseeable future, i have no plans on resinstalling vista, so i wanted to give my copy of the orange box to a friend of mine to use. the trouble is that i read in the support database that cd keys are locked to an account. This is trouble for two reasons -- i have no idea what my steam login information is/was, and i don't know if my friend will be able to successfully install and play the copy of the game he would have legiitmately obtained from me.

any help would be very much appreciated, and i look forward to your response.

vicente lopez
2 Message by Herschel on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 11:05 am
Hello Vicente Lopez,

Unfortunately, used CD Keys (whether resold by an individual or a store selling used goods) cannot be reset.

Please see the Steam Subscriber Agreement and the CD Key Reset Process FAQ if you would like more information:

Steam Subscriber Agreement
http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=subscriber_agreement

Title: CD Key Reset Process
URL: http://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1673-IDGK-4694
3 Message by you on Thu, 7th Feb 2008 7:45 pm
So i'm sitting on coasters right now that i cannot give to anybody for any reason whatsoever unless they use MY account information (fraud/identity theft).

I think this is unacceptable. I have my purchase reciepts, a physical copy of the game, and the dvds that it came with and i see no reason why i would not be able to pass them on to somebody else who WANTS to play them.

understand that for a second -- somebody else WANTS to experience your product, and the person telling them "No" is you.

I wish to either have this resolved in a timely manner, or to be reffered to a supervisor or (even better) a phone number that i can call.
4 Message by you on Fri, 8th Feb 2008 2:06 pm
The equivalent of hanging up on a support customer just occurred.

I've been patient, but now i want immediate service. I want a phone number to call, and i want to have this matter resolved PROFESSIONALLY.
5 Message by Herschel on Fri, 8th Feb 2008 2:54 pm
Hello Vicente A Lopez,

Unfortunately, used CD Keys (whether resold by an individual or a store selling used goods) cannot be reset.

If your friend would like to play the game, then he will have to purchase his own license, on his own account.

Please consider the matter closed for further discussion.
emphasis mine
[/quote]
 
since when was customer service allowed to hang up on you? I mean, aren't they there to HELP you?
Click to expand...


No. Consider the matter closed for further discussion.

Mods, please lock this thread.
 
on what grounds?

and that's exactly what customer service is there to do -- to satisfy customers within reasonable means. nevermind what they actually do.

this thread isn't some long winded diatribe about grave injustices or irreverent ranting -- it's a factual account of events from one side (anybody else from valve is welcome to register and post in this thread) about the frustrations of the state of modern computer gaming and it's current and foreseeable repercussions.

we also, mind you, have a trading forum that is directly effected by such arcane and consumer-unfriendly policies -- not to mention that similar threads of discussion have popped up in the past.

if the thread is in the wrong place, move it. if it's inappropriate, SAY why. otherwise, i feel there is great discussion material in the topic that the community can address/air their own concerns.
 
You can recover the game if you just try to remember what your login was. It shouldn't be that hard to put in your email address and one of the four passwords that you regularly use. Steam does not tie the game to your partition, only your account. If you can't remember your account then it's your own fault.
 
[quote name='phreak5k']You can recover the game if you just try to remember what your login was. It shouldn't be that hard to put in your email address and one of the four passwords that you regularly use. Steam does not tie the game to your partition, only your account. If you can't remember your account then it's your own fault.[/QUOTE]

the point being, of course, why i should have to deal with virtual account information to GIVE AWAY a physical copy of the game -- and, barring that, why

keep in mind that steam cannot decouple the game from your account. from what i understand, it's tied there i.e, even if i own a physical copy of the game as well as have all my login information, i cannot "lend" the game to anybody in any form -- much less give it away.
 
[quote name='tsunami_bomb3r']the point being, of course, why i should have to deal with virtual account information to GIVE AWAY a physical copy of the game -- and, barring that, why

keep in mind that steam cannot decouple the game from your account. from what i understand, it's tied there i.e, even if i own a physical copy of the game as well as have all my login information, i cannot "lend" the game to anybody in any form -- much less give it away.[/quote]

You have to deal with this because piracy is killing the pc game market. Steam is absolutely painless if you use it correctly. If you wanted to "lend" it to your friend all you would need to do is change your password to something temporarily and change it back when your friend is finished.
 
which isn't exactly working WITH the steam EULA.

and the point is i don't want to lend it, i want to give it away.

there have been no credible studies published anywhere that matters about the effects of piracy on the computer games market, or whether or not it even IS failing -- there have been numbers thrown around on both sides as to what is healthy and what is failing.

even still, the lowering cost and rising power of dedicated gaming consoles have also been attributed to any "failing" of the PC games market -- nevermind the fact that the orange box is available on the PS3 and the 360.

please, be a little more thoughtful in your responses.
 
[quote name='tsunami_bomb3r']the point being, of course, why i should have to deal with virtual account information to GIVE AWAY a physical copy of the game -- and, barring that, why

keep in mind that steam cannot decouple the game from your account. from what i understand, it's tied there i.e, even if i own a physical copy of the game as well as have all my login information, i cannot "lend" the game to anybody in any form -- much less give it away.[/quote]

Be a little more clear on whether you want to give away your copy of let someone borrow it, and you should take the "gift" off of your trade list:


PICTURAS AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST. they will be, however, taken with a webcam.

Looking to Sell/Trade:
most if not all my current :xbox:

:gba:
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance - complete - $20

:segacd:
Sewer Shark Jewel Case
WWF Rage in the Cage - Longcase missing front cover/manual

:ps2:
Mana Khemia LE pre-order (SOLD OUT AT ROSENQUEEN) - $130
Phantom Brave Double Jump Strategy Guide - $20

:pc:
Half-Life 2 Orange Box - Used, installed once, then got rid of my Vista partition - $30 shipped Pending
Disc-only Oblivion w/ Uriel Septum coin - $5
Click to expand...
 
If you have all of your login info you can easily let a friend play it. Before I had Steam, my friend used to always come over and install games that I didn't own and play them through Steam. You can go a friend's, login, download a game you own, and play it there.

But... anyway... the CSR was a little rude, but you were far more hostile without just cause.
 
[quote name='phreak5k']Be a little more clear on whether you want to give away your copy of let someone borrow it, and you should take the "gift" off of your trade list:[/QUOTE]

that's not in line with the discussion. i will not disclose whether this was result of a trade or sale on CAG, ebay, or even a casual gift to a friend (and just to reflect a point, any other game on that list can freely change hands physically for a theoretically infinite number of times). for the record, i'm changing my trade list after this post comes up to reflect my error in leaving it up for longer than it should have been. i've just had some things on my mind.

again, i ask that you contribute something to the conversation rather than take whatever jabs at me. i do not think that we're on opposing sides in the matter, so please stop acting like it is so.

think about Valve's Steam EUL Agreements that create an environment so ironically hostile towards sharing and word of mouth promotion of titles with a heavy focus on online play? Do you think that whatever 'piracy' (and the term is used loosely, as it has many negative connotations and denotations) that is being committed justifies the treatment of the entire user base as 'pirates'?

I am obviously not a 'pirate' for giving away a copy of a game i own to a friend, and he not for using it. So why, then, is it necessary to treat us as such? And how is it possible that we cannot be exempt from such treatment?

i'm don't mean to put you on the spot, but it's something that everybody really needs to think about when going to retail or even more so downloading from distribution channels. we're paying the same amount of money for the same games, so where exactly is our money going? do we own what we buy? i obviously have only invested some share of money in valve -- no, invest is the wrong word. I didn't gain any sort of capitol, anything with monetary resell value. i gave them money and got their word in return.

these are very real questions to the gaming community, questions that we are NOT getting adequate answers to. i happen to think the situation i found myself in reflects a capitulation of the problem in the gaming industry right now.



But... anyway... the CSR was a little rude, but you were far more hostile without just cause.
Click to expand...
I don't consider any of my responses hostile -- demanding, maybe, but not hostile. I think hostile would have been resorting to improper language, straying from the point, and getting malicious.

and regarding your comments about giving someone my user name/password to play under: I think that violates steams Terms of Use, and it isn't exactly safe, considering credit card information--basically anything involving money--could create a hazardous environment for myself, steam, and my friend, and defeats the purpose of creating a unique handle under which you can be identified in online games. There's a reason the steam rep didn't just tell me to give my information to my friend and be done with -- they don't want me to do that (or at least they shouldn't).
 
Yeah, that's why I don't like Steam. If Valve decides to close your account for some reason -- legitimate or not -- then you're screwed. What recourse do you have in recovering hundreds of dollars worth of games? That's what happens when your lock yourself in to one system run by one company; there's no guarantee they'll let you access your stuff.

And I know there's some supposed quote from Gabe saying something like if Valve goes under, the last thing they'll do is release a code to untie all of your games or something. But as far as I know, that isn't reflected in the ToS.

Once Steamworks takes off, we can all grab our ankles for Steam...while also grabbing our ankles for MS Windows, which is required to legimately use Steam. Sometimes I wonder how the hell we as consumers let this happen.
 
if valve goes under i highly doubt a massive act of gaming philanthropy will be their last -- chances are they'll be worrying about liquidating assets to recoup the costs of a failing business.
 
Out of curiosity, can you play Steam games while offline? Ideally, if I had games on Steam, I'd like to be able to just save an image of all the related data and back that shit up. If I can't make a backup of some sort that doesn't require me to conform to Steam's draconian policies, then I'm going to bother with anything on there.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']Out of curiosity, can you play Steam games while offline?[/quote]

[quote name='Steam Help']
Offline Mode allows you to play games through Steam without reconnecting to the Steam Network every time you wish to play - this is particularly useful if you do not plan on playing over the internet and would prefer not to download new updates for your single-player games. Please note that you must connect to the Steam Network and test each of the games you would like to use in Offline Mode at least once to set up your account and configure Offline Mode on your machine.[/quote]

Yes, but an internet connection is required to establish offline mode. Hmmm.

You can also backup your games via Steam, but Steam will need to authorize the backups for them to function.

Another reason why digital distribution kinda sucks: the games are unbelievably expensive. For example, I purchased a sealed copy of Batttlestations: Midway from eBay for $7 shipped. But on Steam it's $30. Yeah, like manufacturing the box, disc, and packaging and then sending them across country is less expensive than sending a couple of gigs straight to my hard drive. :roll:

If I wasn't lazy, I'd do the math and see how many joules it takes to mail Battlestations from Minnesota to San Francisco. (Not that it would mean anything that scientific, but still.)

Here's the best part: I can still register Battlestations on Steam AND have a physical copy in case Steam craps out.

Recapping:
*Saved $23
*Own a physical copy
*Can still register it over Steam, providing me with the good aspects of the service: tying the game to my account so I can download it on any computer

So unless you love increasing the profit margins of third-party devs, I see no reason to purchase many of their games over Steam, unless you're impatient or have money to blow. And given that prices depreciate slowly over Steam, you're still better off waiting for B&M, eBay, or Amazon deals.
 
[quote name='Serik']Yes, but an internet connection is required to establish offline mode. Hmmm.

You can also backup your games via Steam, but Steam will need to authorize the backups for them to function.

Another reason why digital distribution kinda sucks: the games are unbelievably expensive. For example, I purchased a sealed copy of Batttlestations: Midway from eBay for $7 shipped. But on Steam it's $30. Yeah, like manufacturing the box, disc, and packaging and then sending them across country is less expensive than sending a couple of gigs straight to my hard drive. :roll:

If I wasn't lazy, I'd do the math and see how many joules it takes to mail Battlestations from Minnesota to San Francisco. (Not that it would mean anything that scientific, but still.)

Here's the best part: I can still register Battlestations on Steam AND have a physical copy in case Steam craps out.

Recapping:
*Saved $23
*Own a physical copy
*Can still register it over Steam, providing me with the good aspects of the service: tying the game to my account so I can download it on any computer

So unless you love increasing the profit margins of third-party devs, I see no reason to purchase many of their games over Steam, unless you're impatient or have money to blow. And given that prices depreciate slowly over Steam, you're still better off waiting for B&M, eBay, or Amazon deals.[/quote]

And you hit one of the top reasons why I dislike digital distribution. There are never clearances.
 
Yep. I wish digital distributors would adopt Wal-Mart's policy: sell more for less.

I'd buy tons of games over Steam, its problems be damned, if they were dirt cheap. CoD4 for $20!? Every Civ game ever released for $40!? Those prices would drive hordes of gamers to Steam.

And it's not just Steam. Amazon's failed UnBox (or whatever the hell it was called) charged people $20 for some crappy quality movie download loaded with DRM.

I just don't see physical storage continuing forever. Hell, I can buy a 1TB Western Digital HD from Costco for pretty cheap, yet the studios are (were?) squabbling over some pissant physical format because they're still afraid of digital distribution.

From a purely physics perspective, it doesn't make sense to expend energy creating storage containers for a compilation of 0s and 1s that can easily be transmitted over the internet.

I'm not opposed to digital distribution; I'm opposed to the way it's currently handled.

But I digress.
 
I've said this before: If the distributors of recorded media disks would use reasonably sized packaging (similiar to the old CD ROM jewel cases), this wouldn't be such an issue. There's no reason to package a single DVD ROM game disk in a double thickness DVD clamshell case. They just take up too much shelf space. Make cases out of the same plastic, but only as high and wide as the old jewel cases, and maybe 1/8" thicker for larger instruction manuals.
 
[quote name='Apossum']No. Consider the matter closed for further discussion.

Mods, please lock this thread.[/QUOTE]

:rofl: Something went over someone's head . . . like really high.
 
[quote name='tsunami_bomb3r']on what grounds?

and that's exactly what customer service is there to do -- to satisfy customers within reasonable means. nevermind what they actually do.

this thread isn't some long winded diatribe about grave injustices or irreverent ranting -- it's a factual account of events from one side (anybody else from valve is welcome to register and post in this thread) about the frustrations of the state of modern computer gaming and it's current and foreseeable repercussions.

we also, mind you, have a trading forum that is directly effected by such arcane and consumer-unfriendly policies -- not to mention that similar threads of discussion have popped up in the past.

if the thread is in the wrong place, move it. if it's inappropriate, SAY why. otherwise, i feel there is great discussion material in the topic that the community can address/air their own concerns.[/QUOTE]


1) wow, you really missed that one...

2) Like any store, Steam has policies about their merchandise. you didn't read their policy and now you're acting like it doesn't apply to you. Wow, another unjustified annoying customer rant. just what cag needs. Btw, Steam rants are so 4 years ago and everything you've complained about is true of every digital distribution system. Like it or not, a big reason Steam exists is to counter piracy and increase revenue in PC sales. Customer service should be about technical issues or serious account problems-- they don't prioritize the $30 you want to make off their game very high.


and to those who say they never have sales-- that's not true at all. They had a couple great sales over the past few months. Got Peggle and Vampire Bloodlines for $10 each. Also got $5 off the Orange Box with a couple weeks of TF2 beta play before it came out. They have price drops and sales. Not as dramatic as B+M stores, but their prices compete a bit.
 
$5 off isn't a big deal when best buy sold it for 24.99 around black friday.

digital distribution means lockdowns on competition, and i think you're missing the point here -- i don't think their policies don't apply to me. i think they should change.
 
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