Socialism & The Public Option

[quote name='tivo']^that's irrelevant.

but talking to myke, if getting tougher on crime -as you see it- does nothing to decrease crime, what do you propose? or are you just a critic against law enforcement and blame criminal actions not on the criminal, but on the environment/state of the country (racism + poor education + low income + other bull, etc. etc.)[/QUOTE]

reduce sentences to save money/reduce prisonization effects.

eliminate sentences for drug users; focus on rehabilitation programs/fines

develop restorative justice programs for nonviolent offenders

eliminate determinate sentencing laws, "truth in sentencing" laws, three strikes laws

bring back good time credit and indeterminate sentencing for low-risk offenders

decriminalize marijuana and tax the fuck out of it

...as a start. the philosophy that "this punishment doesn't work, so it clearly means we aren't being harsh enough" is broken and disproven by the past 3 and a half decades of crime and incarceration trends.
 
[quote name='tivo']^that's irrelevant.

but talking to myke, if getting tougher on crime -as you see it- does nothing to decrease crime, what do you propose? or are you just a critic against law enforcement and blame criminal actions not on the criminal, but on the environment/state of the country (racism + poor education + low income + other bull, etc. etc.)[/QUOTE]

Awww, all that tough guy talk and I can't even get an answer? Can't say I'm surprised.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']reduce sentences to save money/reduce prisonization effects.

eliminate sentences for drug users; focus on rehabilitation programs/fines

develop restorative justice programs for nonviolent offenders

eliminate determinate sentencing laws, "truth in sentencing" laws, three strikes laws

bring back good time credit and indeterminate sentencing for low-risk offenders

decriminalize marijuana and tax the fuck out of it

...as a start. the philosophy that "this punishment doesn't work, so it clearly means we aren't being harsh enough" is broken and disproven by the past 3 and a half decades of crime and incarceration trends.[/QUOTE]

No, you don't understand, rehabilitation is for hippies and sissies Myke. You need to give them a manly punishment.
 
[quote name='docvinh']No, you don't understand, rehabilitation is for hippies and sissies Myke. You need to give them a manly punishment.[/QUOTE]
It definitely has to involve ass stuff.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']reduce sentences to save money/reduce prisonization effects.

eliminate sentences for drug users; focus on rehabilitation programs/fines

develop restorative justice programs for nonviolent offenders

eliminate determinate sentencing laws, "truth in sentencing" laws, three strikes laws

bring back good time credit and indeterminate sentencing for low-risk offenders

decriminalize marijuana and tax the fuck out of it

...as a start. the philosophy that "this punishment doesn't work, so it clearly means we aren't being harsh enough" is broken and disproven by the past 3 and a half decades of crime and incarceration trends.[/QUOTE]

we're not talking about the low-risk, non-violent offenses. I thought it was pretty clear that the talking points covered the hard crimes like those involving murder and rape. What do you think about those crimes and the punishments they incurr? reduce sentencing? rehibilitation? more or less "ass stuff"?
 
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[quote name='tivo']we're not talking about the low-risk, non-violent offenses. I thought it was pretty clear that the talking points covered the hard crimes like those involving murder and rape. What do you think about those crimes and the punishments they incurr? reduce sentencing? rehibilitation? more or less "ass stuff"?[/QUOTE]

No we are not. We're talking about crime reduction in general, because neither you nor I specified anything other than that in this thread thus far. So you don't get to dispute a point by throwing in caveats after the fact.

Moreover, non-violent, low-risk offenders go to prison. Don't think that prison = violent offender, because that's a very, very, very inaccurate statement.
 
i would hope for a refutation for what I've offered thus far if you disagree with it.

That way I don't feel like I'm talking to myself and being ignored.

Murderers are the least likely risk of reoffense, believe it or not.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']

Murderers are the least likely risk of reoffense, believe it or not.[/QUOTE]

But is this because they are just less likely to re-offend, or because they typically have less opportunity to re-offend?
 
alright, well, you said....

[quote name='mykevermin']reduce sentences to save money/reduce prisonization effects.

eliminate sentences for drug users; focus on rehabilitation programs/fines

develop restorative justice programs for nonviolent offenders

eliminate determinate sentencing laws, "truth in sentencing" laws, three strikes laws

bring back good time credit and indeterminate sentencing for low-risk offenders

decriminalize marijuana and tax the fuck out of it

...as a start. the philosophy that "this punishment doesn't work, so it clearly means we aren't being harsh enough" is broken and disproven by the past 3 and a half decades of crime and incarceration trends.[/QUOTE]

I've heard all this before numerous times and I sort of agree: when only one person is harming himself, make the monetary fines higher and the prison sentencing shorter (mainly for illicit drug use) with probation and/or mandatory rehibilitation/check-ups paid for by the individual. But moving up the ante, as soon as criminal involves an innocent citizen in his crime (burglary, assault, kid napping, negligence, etc.) then take them out of society and place them in a prison in accordance with the crime + pain inflected + tack on a few years for their stupidity where they'd be doing community service for years to pay back their debt to society. As for murder, the most traumatizing and unforgivable offense a person can make against society, it should be met with the death penalty in most cases. Then for rape, if its against a child then instant death penalty. If there's some questioning of when she/he said "No," as in the Kobe Bryant case, then maybe just a $$$ fine but leave it up to the individual case - women can't really lead on a guy until the last second. Finally, if you plead insanity, you'd be in a mental hospital for min. 15 years before starting your sentence in prison if you regain sanity.

and obviously my stance on anything involving illegal aliens is that it needs to be harder- i.e. huge fines if you employ an illegal alien (+ prison if things aren't by the books, i.e. mistreatment) and deportation of anyone who isn't a US citizen or doesn't hold a work permit.
 
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[quote name='tivo']I've heard all this before numerous times and I sort of agree: when only one person is harming himself, make the monetary fines higher and the prison sentencing shorter (mainly for illicit drug use) with probation and/or mandatory rehibilitation/check-ups paid for by the individual. But moving up the ante, as soon as criminal involves an innocent citizen in his crime (burglary, assault, kid napping, negligence, etc.) then take them out of society and place them in a prison in accordance with the crime + pain inflected + tack on a few years for their stupidity where they'd be doing community service for years to pay back their debt to society. As for murder, the most traumatizing and unforgivable offense a person can make against society, it should be met with the death penalty in most cases. Then for rape, if its against a child then instant death penalty. If there's some questioning of when she/he said "No," as in the Kobe Bryant case, then maybe just a $$$ fine but leave it up to the individual case - women can't really lead on a guy until the last second. Finally, if you plead insanity, you'd be in a mental hospital for min. 15 years before starting your sentence in prison if you regain sanity.[/QUOTE]

Harsh punishments and longer prison sentences, reduction in amenities to prisoners, coincided with *simultaneous* growth in both incarceration rates and also prison populations. Please explain to me, theoretically, why you think treating prisoners even harsher will work at reducing crime if, given past experience over the course of your lifespan, policies of treating prisoners more harshly did not work?

How punitive do you have to become for you to discover that punishment isn't the only appropriate, useful, non-counter-productive option we have? Why not community corrections?

[quote name='spmahn']But is this because they are just less likely to re-offend, or because they typically have less opportunity to re-offend?[/QUOTE]

Mostly because murders aren't as indiscriminant as you would think. If you're feuding with someone, and you kill them, the feud's over at that point. You have no more motive to kill. It's easy to broadbrush people who kill other human beings as "murders," and think of them as all identical. Which ignores the obvious fact that for many people, murder is an option but still not an easy option to decide upon.
 
Doesn't prison turn non-violent offenders into violent ones? The guy that goes into jail for selling weed has to join a gang or get killed. Then to prove he's a real member of the gang, he has to kill a rival gang member. This gets drilled in over and over and before you know it, you've got a "soldier" ready to die for the cause.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Harsh punishments and longer prison sentences, reduction in amenities to prisoners, coincided with *simultaneous* growth in both incarceration rates and also prison populations. Please explain to me, theoretically, why you think treating prisoners even harsher will work at reducing crime if, given past experience over the course of your lifespan, policies of treating prisoners more harshly did not work?
[/QUOTE]

its not just to prevent future actions, its due punishment for the crime committed. If you take an innocent life, expect your own to be taken. simple as that. we aren't animals. there are laws to live by in society.

[quote name='mykevermin']How punitive do you have to become for you to discover that punishment isn't the only appropriate, useful, non-counter-productive option we have? Why not community corrections?
[/QUOTE]

we have numerous programs aimed at reducing crime through education, awareness, etc. what community corrections do you propose that don't already exist? its easy to talk in generalalities. And obviously, we all want to lower crime, so don't think of me as some sort of bad guy for wanting to try more.
 
I'll repeat what I said earlier. Overcrowded prisons create more violent offenders. Drug dealers/users and petty thieves shouldn't be in the same place as rapists, armed robbers, and murderers.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Doesn't prison turn non-violent offenders into violent ones? The guy that goes into jail for selling weed has to join a gang or get killed. Then to prove he's a real member of the gang, he has to kill a rival gang member. This gets drilled in over and over and before you know it, you've got a "soldier" ready to die for the cause.[/QUOTE]

They don't have to join a gang. They could leave their teeth at the door and join the exciting field of rape victim.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']They don't have to join a gang. They could leave their teeth at the door and join the exciting field of rape victim.[/QUOTE]

And that's the kind of person we eventually release to become a member of "society". They're either hopelessly violent or hopelessly damaged. But that's OK because the time fit the crime.
 
[quote name='tivo']If you take an innocent life, expect your own to be taken. simple as that. we aren't animals.[/QUOTE]

That's quote worthy material right there.
 
[quote name='tivo']its not just to prevent future actions, its due punishment for the crime committed. If you take an innocent life, expect your own to be taken. simple as that. we aren't animals. there are laws to live by in society.[/quote]

yes, yes, general deterrence. I know. I didn't say to not punish them at all, and you're reacting to the idea that I said or implied as such. I did no such thing, so you're reacting to something that isn't there.

we have numerous programs aimed at reducing crime through education, awareness, etc. what community corrections do you propose that don't already exist? its easy to talk in generalalities. And obviously, we all want to lower crime, so don't think of me as some sort of bad guy for wanting to try more.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you know what community corrections encompasses. Please read into CC policies before reacting negatively. Have a foundation to stand on if you disagree with me.
 
Tivo, you don't argue with myke about aspects of criminology. You just don't. Unless you also want to argue with Steve Jobs about overpriced electronics or argue with Richard Gere about rodents.
 
[quote name='numbier_wun']Oh my God, this has gone a long way from the original point of the thread.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Yes it has.

Probably my fault as I went to the Bahamas for a week after making the thread.

~HotShotX
 
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