Socialist America Sinking

[quote name='speedracer']What is it with the ultra fetishist belief that if you "back" money with an otherwise worthless but shiny piece of metal, it has value? Nothing about that makes sense to me. [/QUOTE]
For over 6,000 years gold and silver have held their value. Since we went off the gold standard the dollar has lost 94% of its purchasing power. If you think gold and silver are worthless, let me tell you something. The rest of the world disagrees with you. Just look at the gold and silver prices now compared to 1964, 1933, or 1971.
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Really? This is amazing news! Oh wait.
http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=435
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Notice how the debt is kept at a low level, and paid off when it is accumulated by the civil war. Until 1913. Then it starts to become higher, and isn't paid off as much, or as often. Now, we never pay off our debt.

I don't disagree that government is too big and that corporations are too powerful. Does anyone anywhere believe that? I certainly disagree that this is a new phenomena. We've been wrestling with it for our entire existence. Happy fun quote time!

"I see in the future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of the war." -Lincoln, 145 years ago.
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What Lincoln is talking about there is something that has plagued our nation for a long time. From the time of our country being created, to 1913, we had struggled to keep a central bank away from the US. We had seen what happened to countries that had central banks, and did not want that for us. Unfortunately in 1913, we ended up with a private central bank in the form of the federal reserve. Since then, our money has largely become worthless,and the government has been pretty much taken over by the large corporations. Politicians have become bought and paid for, using their power to do what their financiers want, not what the people want. They have grown the Federal government into a huge corporation owned pile of bullshit. No longer do politicians care what the people want, they just care what the people who give them money want. Almost every politician today is a career politician who makes a living off screwing over the people of this country.
 
I would recommend looking at this editorial that I found too:
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/hodges/2006/0106.html

[FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]Inflation in my adult years increased average prices 1,000% or more:
[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]a postage stamp in the 1950s cost 3 cents; today's cost is 39 cents - 1,300% inflation;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]a gallon of full-service gasoline cost 18 cents before; today it is $2.28 for self-service - 1,267 % inflation;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]a new house in 1959 averaged $14,900; today it's $282,300 - 1,795% inflation (+1,510% if quality-adjusted);[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]a dental crown used to cost $40; today it's $740 - 1,750% inflation;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]an ice cream cone in 1950 cost 5 cents; today its $2.50 - 4,900% inflation;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]monthly government Medicare insurance premiums paid by seniors was $5.30 in 1970; its now $88.50 - 1,664% inflation;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]several generations ago a person worked 1.4 months per year to pay for government; he now works 5 months.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]and in the past, one wage-earner families lived well and built savings with minimal debt, many paying off their home and college-educating children without loans. How about today?[/FONT]
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[quote name='fullmetalfan720']For over 6,000 years gold and silver have held their value. Since we went off the gold standard the dollar has lost 94% of its purchasing power. If you think gold and silver are worthless, let me tell you something. The rest of the world disagrees with you. Just look at the gold and silver prices now compared to 1964, 1933, or 1971.[/quote]
Absolutely. I'd be the first to tell you everyone around me disagrees. But it doesn't address the issue at hand. The Europeans won and now everyone thinks of it as a base value. But how is that belief different than "believing" in dollars or beads or grains of sand? We've all internalized the somehow amusing idea of Native Americans wanting beads. The naivete of its primitive nature is cute but unrealistic. I don't get how gold is different.

This is my biggest issue with those that want to go screaming back to the days before Bretton. Aren't we just substituting naive assignments of value? We lose our minds at the thought of the central bank being the scumbags they are and essentially deciding the value of money at their own whim. It's BS (really, it is and I agree)! But how does trading paper for a rock help in real terms?
Notice how the debt is kept at a low level, and paid off when it is accumulated by the civil war. Until 1913. Then it starts to become higher, and isn't paid off as much, or as often. Now, we never pay off our debt.
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The Christians call it original sin. If we're going to get all huffy about it, our nation was born with this economic original sin. I'm down with your position that it's getting "worse", but I don't think it could reasonably end any other way and don't see the need to distinguish today from yesterday as a result.

That makes sense in my head, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes for a reader. Give me the benefit of the doubt on that position. I'm just trying to get an idea across there.
What Lincoln is talking about there is something that has plagued our nation for a long time. From the time of our country being created, to 1913, we had struggled to keep a central bank away from the US. We had seen what happened to countries that had central banks, and did not want that for us. Unfortunately in 1913, we ended up with a private central bank in the form of the federal reserve. Since then, our money has largely become worthless,and the government has been pretty much taken over by the large corporations. Politicians have become bought and paid for, using their power to do what their financiers want, not what the people want. They have grown the Federal government into a huge corporation owned pile of bullshit. No longer do politicians care what the people want, they just care what the people who give them money want. Almost every politician today is a career politician who makes a living off screwing over the people of this country.
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This is one of my core problems with capitalism. Capital will always position itself in a manner that enriches and enshrines its position to the detriment of others. It's the only rational, natural way for it to move. Of course it was going to infect its host government and corrupt its leaders. Of course it's going to take the cheap way every time. How can it not? Its own leaders are chucked at the first whiff of less than 5% annual returns.

I have a business degree. I find business and capital endlessly fascinating. But let's call a spade a spade here.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']
What Lincoln is talking about there is something that has plagued our nation for a long time. From the time of our country being created, to 1913, we had struggled to keep a central bank away from the US. We had seen what happened to countries that had central banks, and did not want that for us. Unfortunately in 1913, we ended up with a private central bank in the form of the federal reserve. Since then, our money has largely become worthless,and the government has been pretty much taken over by the large corporations. Politicians have become bought and paid for, using their power to do what their financiers want, not what the people want. They have grown the Federal government into a huge corporation owned pile of bullshit. No longer do politicians care what the people want, they just care what the people who give them money want. Almost every politician today is a career politician who makes a living off screwing over the people of this country.[/QUOTE]
You've seen money masters, haven't you?

For further proof of what you are saying, one only needs to count how many government positions, especially in the treasury, that are manned by former execs of banks and investment firms. It's a rotating door, and it's a huge conflict of interest that nobody really pays any attention to.
 
[quote name='speedracer']That's where I was going with that. Most people are most proud of our most "liberal" moments socially (and with damn good reason). Nobody is "most proud" of our economic liberalism. That's what I meant when I said, to paraphrase, the whole "everything sucked" thing. We all have this need to romanticize our history. I don't get it. 1800s America was a nasty place to be. Most of the 1900s America was a nasty place to be. Today we're proud most specifically of the changes we've recently (relatively speaking) made from the first 200 or so years.[/QUOTE]

Well, yes, 1800s America was pretty nasty. Anywhere in the world was pretty nasty at that time, overall. Does this mean we shouldn't be proud of our forefathers' successes? Obviously not.

Of course people are proud of progress. Who wouldn't be (other than a few reactionary types)? That's why it's called "progress." The real issue is what constitutes progress. I would say more overbearing government, higher taxes, curtailing of personal freedoms and such are hardly "progress."
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Well, yes, 1800s America was pretty nasty. Anywhere in the world was pretty nasty at that time, overall. Does this mean we shouldn't be proud of our forefathers' successes? Obviously not.

Of course people are proud of progress. Who wouldn't be (other than a few reactionary types)? That's why it's called "progress." The real issue is what constitutes progress. I would say more overbearing government, higher taxes, curtailing of personal freedoms and such are hardly "progress."[/QUOTE]
I guess that's where the fork in the road is. I think the progress is made up largely of regulation. I look at China and their horrific work conditions, badly treated population, and god awful product and think that we would look identical today without even the piss poor regulation we have today.
 
imagine work conditions in the 20th Century had "The Jungle" never been written, and how that would reflect on what our life is like currently.
 
Myke, I already wrote about that a couple pages back. Nobody seems to care. For some people, free market enterprise is Jesus, sex, and Friday night football all wrapped into one. It's Americana at it's purest.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Myke, I already wrote about that a couple pages back. Nobody seems to care. For some people, free market enterprise is Jesus, sex, and Friday night football all wrapped into one. It's Americana at it's purest.[/QUOTE]
That's what our country was founded upon. Freedom.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']That's what our country was founded upon. Freedom.[/QUOTE]
I always thought the freedom part was kind of an accident foisted on us by political necessity. It seems to me that freedom only really became a strong part of our identity around the middle of the last century. We all love Jefferson's soaring language and Franklin's almost mythical nobility, but was the end result was far from what we know today as freedom, wasn't it?

Lest my ankles be nipped at by thrust again, I'm just talking about the reality of life in America for the first 200 or so years.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']That's what our country was founded upon. Freedom.[/QUOTE]

You're joking right? Then how come blacks were only considered three fifths of a person and women didn't get to vote until 1920? America was founded so that white businessmen and farmers could make money without sending it back to England.
 
[quote name='speedracer']I always thought the freedom part was kind of an accident foisted on us by political necessity. It seems to me that freedom only really became a strong part of our identity around the middle of the last century. We all love Jefferson's soaring language and Franklin's almost mythical nobility, but was the end result was far from what we know today as freedom, wasn't it?

Lest my ankles be nipped at by thrust again, I'm just talking about the reality of life in America for the first 200 or so years.[/QUOTE]
What do you think we had thought police back then? We had actual freedom back then, not this police state bullshit we have now. There was no No-Fly list, no terrorist watch list, we didn't have idiotic presidents that said "you're either with us or against us," we didn't have politicians trying to say you can't own a gun, there was no income tax, you could use your own silver and gold as currency, now if you try that you will be arrested, and sent to federal prison. When idiots created central banks, they were abolished, our representatives weren't bought and paid for, there was no such thing as rendition, or gitmo, if you tortured a British soldier during the Revolutionary War, you were prosecuted. People actually cared about following laws, now politicians don't care that they exist. They wiretap you, they violate Posse Comitatus, we have free speech zones, no fly no buy bills, the cyberbullying bill, and the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, and 10th amendments are no longer cared about. So, sure the was no freedom back then.
Back when Andrew Jackson was president, someone tried to assassinate him. He beat the fucker up with his cane. I don't think any president today is that badass.
 
Fullmetal, when you say we, you really mean white land owning males. That's our problem. There wasn't a thought police but freedom only applied to a segment of the population. Freedom should apply to everyone but it didn't and there's no way you can possibly say that.

Oh, and Andrew Jackson was a racist bastard that turned the White House into a drinking club. Did you forget about the Back Door Cabinet?

Oh, and I just thought of one other thing. I'd much rather have the government tapping my phone than the KKK running amok lynching people like it's going out of style. I'd much rather have a no-fly list than being on a town's witch list and being burnt at the stake. I'd much rather have certain religious/political groups under observation instead of just banning them and/or forcing everyone in them to move to the territories like we did with the Mormons.
 
[quote name='depascal22']You're joking right? Then how come blacks were only considered three fifths of a person and women didn't get to vote until 1920? America was founded so that white businessmen and farmers could make money without sending it back to England.[/QUOTE]
Was there other places in the world where this was any different? That's just how things were back then. When we actually follow our Constitution, we have liberty, and freedom, when we don't we have little freedom, and despotic rulers.
 
That's just how it was? You can take that freedom and shove it up your ass.

They had to amend the Constitution to ban slavery and give women the right to vote. They were following the Constitution and it only allowed white land owning males to vote. It wasn't about despotic rulers. It was just ignorant fools trying to preserve an economic system. Free market capitalism ruled over liberty and it always will in this country.
 
[quote name='depascal22']That's just how it was? You can take that freedom and shove it up your ass.
[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately that's how it was. During that time some people thought of minorities, and women as second class citizens. However, it wasn't the government back then that was lynching black men, and it wasn't the government calling people witches. It was people. Now we have the government murdering people, and putting them on "terrorist" lists. No where in the Constitution does it say "Go out and kill black men, and beat up women." It also does not say "you can put people you don't like on a terrorist watch list, and hide them in secret prison camps." Yes, the Constitution did originally allow only white men to vote, but it has been amended to allow every citizen over 18 to vote.
 
[quote name='depascal22']That's just how it was? You can take that freedom and shove it up your ass.

They had to amend the Constitution to ban slavery and give women the right to vote. They were following the Constitution and it only allowed white land owning males to vote. It wasn't about despotic rulers. It was just ignorant fools trying to preserve an economic system. Free market capitalism ruled over liberty and it always will in this country.[/QUOTE]

Are you being serious?

Yes there were oppressed groups of people at the founding of this country.
No it was not a perfect country at it's beginning.
Yes things needed changing, and they got changed.

But we have lost nearly every GOOD and unique thing about the founding and intent of this country. I think that's what Fullmetalfan means. We've taken just about every aspect of this country that COULD be used for liberty, freedom for everyone, and truly letting ANYONE excel as far as they want to according to their own efforts and dreams and we have converted it to they holy grand arbiter of fairness and equalizing.

What's sad is you make it sound like you would prefer it be changed even more than it has. And not in a good way.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']You've seen money masters, haven't you?
[/QUOTE]
Yes
[quote name='thrustbucket']Are you being serious?

Yes there were oppressed groups of people at the founding of this country.
No it was not a perfect country at it's beginning.
Yes things needed changing, and they got changed.

But we have lost nearly every GOOD and unique thing about the founding and intent of this country. I think that's what Fullmetalfan means. We've taken just about every aspect of this country that COULD be used for liberty, freedom for everyone, and truly letting ANYONE excel as far as they want to according to their own efforts and dreams and we have converted it to they holy grand arbiter of fairness and equalizing.

What's sad is you make it sound like you would prefer it be changed even more than it has. And not in a good way.[/QUOTE]That's exactly what I mean. All the things that made our country great are mostly gone.
 
You know what I like about the Fed Fearmongers?

Their solution to all the world's problems is to abolish the Fed and then do nothing to change capitalism - except decrease government oversight and responsibility.

It would be silly if it weren't for the fact that it's just positively fucking insane.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You know what I like about the Fed Fearmongers?

Their solution to all the world's problems is to abolish the Fed and then do nothing to change capitalism - except decrease government oversight and responsibility.

It would be silly if it weren't for the fact that it's just positively fucking insane.[/QUOTE]
How is it insane to want to abolish the Fed so we can have a sound monetary policy? Additionally most people who want to abolish the Fed want government responsibility. Also, what is it you want to change about Capitalism?
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Yes
That's exactly what I mean. All the things that made our country great are mostly gone.[/QUOTE]

What does that even mean?

No. I'm just tired of all of you acting like it never happened. Fullmetal said and I quote, "This country was founded on freedom." I brought up examples of how it wasn't a free country. He then brought up examples of things that are bad today (thought police and no fly list) and how they weren't in the past. How can you even compare the enslavement and disenfranchisement of a large segment of the population with a super super small percentage of the country that can't board an airplane?

But now it's not all about that. It's about how this country has changed. That's not what he said. He said it was founded on freedom and I counter that it was founded on free market capitalism. This nation was founded so the money that was made could stay here instead of going across the Atlantic.

What was the Boston Tea Party about? You think there would have been as many people on the American side if it was all about freedom? You think they would've signed on if there was no mention of taxes?

What almost made this country fall apart during the Articles of Confederation? Slavery? Noone gave a fuck about some damn dirty Negros. The states couldn't agree on money. Who had the right to print money. What was it worth. Self-centered white men couldn't agree how to split up the pie and we nearly self-destructed because of it.

You romanticize the past and then, when called out, you say that it's all gone now. Everything is different.

A country founded on freedom should've been free for everyone. I keep hearing how Jefferson and Madison thought slavery should be outlawed but did any of the Founding Fathers give their slaves their freedom? Not one decided to take a personal step for freedom and liberty. They paid it lip service but then proceeded to do what every politician has done since our founding. Please stop saying that they were all about freedom and liberty when their ACTIONS prove the opposite. Words on a paper don't mean shit when you continue to hold slaves.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Also, what is it you want to change about Capitalism?[/QUOTE]
I'm going to test a thesis of mine. What would *YOU*, a defender of capitalism, change about American capitalism? Leave out the parts reasonable people agree on (Goldman is too powerful, business is too entwined in politics, etc.).

Fullmetal, I think you'd concede that blacks don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that women don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that Asians (particularly Chinese (though aren't they all Chinese or whatever hardy har har)) don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that Native Americans don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that non-Christians see American history differently than Christians do.
Hispanics probably fit in here somewhere, though I guess an argument could be made that it wasn't *as* institutional as the rest of the list (not that I agree with that).

So who's left?
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']How is it insane to want to abolish the Fed so we can have a sound monetary policy?[/quote]

Do you equate "sound monetary policy" with the gold standard?

Also, what is it you want to change about Capitalism?
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It isn't so much Capitalism as it is the Sith Capitalism that is being pushed by so many as "free markets".
 
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[quote name='depascal22']What does that even mean?

No. I'm just tired of all of you acting like it never happened. Fullmetal said and I quote, "This country was founded on freedom." I brought up examples of how it wasn't a free country. He then brought up examples of things that are bad today (thought police and no fly list) and how they weren't in the past. How can you even compare the enslavement and disenfranchisement of a large segment of the population with a super super small percentage of the country that can't board an airplane? [/QUOTE]
Both are forms of tyranny.
But now it's not all about that. It's about how this country has changed. That's not what he said. He said it was founded on freedom and I counter that it was founded on free market capitalism. This nation was founded so the money that was made could stay here instead of going across the Atlantic.
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I suppose you know nothing about the Enlightenment?
What was the Boston Tea Party about?
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Unfair taxes.
You think there would have been as many people on the American side if it was all about freedom?
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It was about freedom. We were sick and tired of being ruled by the crown, and we decided to try and create our own country based on the ideas of the great philosophers of the Enlightenment.
You think they would've signed on if there was no mention of taxes?
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Taxes were a major cause of the American revolution, but not the only one.
What almost made this country fall apart during the Articles of Confederation? Slavery? Noone gave a fuck about some damn dirty Negros. The states couldn't agree on money. Who had the right to print money. What was it worth. Self-centered white men couldn't agree how to split up the pie and we nearly self-destructed because of it.
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Yup, damn white people. They always fuck everything up. Nevermind that the articles of Confederation gave the Federal government no real power.
You romanticize the past and then, when called out, you say that it's all gone now. Everything is different.
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It is. We live in a police state for all intents and purposes.
A country founded on freedom should've been free for everyone. I keep hearing how Jefferson and Madison thought slavery should be outlawed but did any of the Founding Fathers give their slaves their freedom?
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Well, I guess by your logic, we should just forget about all of the advances in civilization over the past 1000s of years. fuck you Egyptians, you had slaves. fuck you Greeks and Romans, you're worthless, and contributed nothing because you had slaves. You've got to realize that slavery was a practice that had gone on for thousands of years. After our country was set up, it took about 30 years to ban the salve trade. 90 to emancipate the slaves. However, I guess we shouldn't care what our founding documents say. We shouldn't care that they created the freest civilization to date. I should think the Magna Carta is a piece of shit, because I'm Irish and the British took over our land.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety, and Happiness."
Unfortunately, I guess we can't follow that anymore because some people who wrote it owned slaves.
Come on now, should we really throw this great document out the window because when it was written, it was common for people to own slaves? I suppose we should just forget that the entire history of the world happened, because slavery has existed?
Not one decided to take a personal step for freedom and liberty. They paid it lip service but then proceeded to do what every politician has done since our founding. Please stop saying that they were all about freedom and liberty when their ACTIONS prove the opposite. Words on a paper don't mean shit when you continue to hold slaves.
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Jefferson was so far in debt he couldn't free his slaves. They would have just gone to the people who he owed his debt to. Before he died, he did free 5 of his slaves, as that was all he could do. He fought against slavery when he was in politics. Madison was also so far in debt, he couldn't free his slaves.
[quote name='speedracer']I'm going to test a thesis of mine. What would *YOU*, a defender of capitalism, change about American capitalism? Leave out the parts reasonable people agree on (Goldman is too powerful, business is too entwined in politics, etc.).[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see the break-up of this monopoly capitalist system that we have today. We have too many huge companies that dominate industry, because they have had regulations passed that make it hard for people to compete against them.
I would like to see the Federal Reserve abolished, and with it the IRS, Federal Income Tax, and the 16th Amendment. Instead of the Federal Reserve Notes, gold and silver would become legal tender. This would force the government to once again live within its means.
I would like to see term limits on Congress, so it would become harder for special interests to gain control of politicians.
I would like to see the end of this legalized bribery that exists in politics.

Fullmetal, I think you'd concede that blacks don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that women don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that Asians (particularly Chinese (though aren't they all Chinese or whatever hardy har har)) don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that Native Americans don't see American history the same way you do for obvious reasons.
I think you'd concede that non-Christians see American history differently than Christians do.
Hispanics probably fit in here somewhere, though I guess an argument could be made that it wasn't *as* institutional as the rest of the list (not that I agree with that).

So who's left?
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We made some big mistakes in this country. We as humans have also made some big mistakes. It is the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence that can make us free though. If you will read both documents through, you will see that they speak of a great foundation. At the time they were written, there were some major atrocities going on around the world, and in America. Today there are major atrocities going on in the world and America. If we just look past these things, and use the foundation that our Forefathers have given us, we can create a better country than the one we have now. One where everyone is free, everyone is equal and everyone has the unalienable rights that they were born with. That is what the framers of the Constitution wanted.
[quote name='Msut77']Do you equate "sound monetary policy" with the gold standard? [/QUOTE]
No, I equate a sound monetary policy with one where the government can't print unlimited currency.

It isn't so much Capitalism as it is the Sith Capitalism that is being pushed by so many as "free markets".
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I prefer to call it corporatism, crony capitalism, or monopoly capitalism, but Sith Capitalism works.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']How is it insane to want to abolish the Fed so we can have a sound monetary policy? Additionally most people who want to abolish the Fed want government responsibility. Also, what is it you want to change about Capitalism?[/QUOTE]

Your greatest enemy is the collusion of public and private interests. Yet you focus on the former aspect of that as the root problem, and think that unrestrained capitalists will not engage in the same form of unregulated control and oppression in the absence of government control (and collusion)?

That's the most absurd notion I've ever read. Which half of the cigarette gives you cancer?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Your greatest enemy is the collusion of public and private interests. Yet you focus on the former aspect of that as the root problem, and think that unrestrained capitalists will not engage in the same form of unregulated control and oppression in the absence of government control (and collusion)?

That's the most absurd notion I've ever read. Which half of the cigarette gives you cancer?[/QUOTE]
The difference is Goldman Sachs can't point a gun to your head, and tell you to give them $8,000. The government can. With a large government, corporations can also get regulations passed that make it hard for people to compete against them.
 
I haven't really seen anyone advocate for 0 regulation around here. Its the international bank's collusion with (read: ownership of ) our government that is the root of the problem. Corrupt mega-corporations are a symptom.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I haven't really seen anyone advocate for 0 regulation around here. Its the international bank's collusion with (read: ownership of ) our government that is the root of the problem. Corrupt mega-corporations are a symptom.[/QUOTE]
I still never get this question answered. Does anyone really see another rational way for capital to go than to shore up and defend itself in this manner? Isn't it prudent capital to spend to defend one's capital in this way?

In capital-ese, aren't banking cabals good investments?
 
[quote name='speedracer']I still never get this question answered. Does anyone really see another rational way for capital to go than to shore up and defend itself in this manner? Isn't it prudent capital to spend to defend one's capital in this way?

In capital-ese, aren't banking cabals good investments?[/QUOTE]
Just like gangs are beneficial to society. In real capitalism, and not this bullshit monopoly capitalism we have today, there is no central bank. The idea that a central bank is needed is in the Communist Manifesto. It isn't part of capitalism. It allows complete control over the people. Thomas Jefferson explains it very well:
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
That's where we are today.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']The idea that a central bank is needed is in the Communist Manifesto. It isn't part of capitalism. It allows complete control over the people.[/QUOTE]

Pure fallacy. While it is in the communist manifesto, the idea that (1) what we currently have satisfies those conditions Marx set down is false, as is (2) the idea that it's incompatible with Capitalism.

Sorry if it's not your ideal capitalism, but your ideal is a theory that has never existed historically, nor will it ever exist historically. you're the capitalist equivalent of a college-student member of the ISO, who tries to claim communism hasn't worked because it's never been tried properly.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Pure fallacy. While it is in the communist manifesto, the idea that (1) what we currently have satisfies those conditions Marx set down is false, as is (2) the idea that it's incompatible with Capitalism.

Sorry if it's not your ideal capitalism, but your ideal is a theory that has never existed historically, nor will it ever exist historically. you're the capitalist equivalent of a college-student member of the ISO, who tries to claim communism hasn't worked because it's never been tried properly.[/QUOTE]
Well, when we didn't have a Central Bank, from Andrew Jackson's presidency to 1912, money increased its value, and we were the land of opportunity. Now the illegal immigrants are fleeing back to Mexico, our government is trillions in debt, and so are the people, and our dollar is worth less every day.
 
You're not a human being, are you.

You're...what were they called?

Ah, the See N' Say!

Pull the string and get one of 8 unique phrases:

"Centralized banks"

"Federal Reserve"

"Socialism"

"Illegal Immigrants"

"Thomas Jefferson"

and so many more!

Really, you confound virtually everything you disagree with into just about every thread you post in so as to show that you're intellectually incapable of separating out your ideas. You just throw all this shit against the wall and hope something sticks.

Problem of national debt and immigration can be tied to the past 29 years (save for Clinton's last 2) or so. Riddle me this: how old is the Fed? Then why the fuck are you trying to pin all of the world's social ills on one mechanism that predates these problems by nearly three quarters of a fucking century?

"Ron Paul."
 
The Federal Reserve was the absolute victory and culmination of a cancer that had been growing since about 20 years after independence. There is gobs of evidence of the first leaders of this country fighting centralized bankings extremely veracious efforts to take control. A new budding country with it's own economy is like fresh blood to a the banking vampire. What do you think the whole greenbacks debacle was about with Lincoln?

In other words it's not innacruate to say that there has neary been a decade since the founding of this country that the central banks have not crept in to corrupt. The Federal Reserve is nothing but their ultimate takeover, but certainly not their beginning.

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependent on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You're not a human being, are you.

You're...what were they called?

Ah, the See N' Say!

Pull the string and get one of 8 unique phrases:

"Centralized banks"

"Federal Reserve"

"Socialism"

"Illegal Immigrants"

"Thomas Jefferson"

and so many more!

Really, you confound virtually everything you disagree with into just about every thread you post in so as to show that you're intellectually incapable of separating out your ideas. You just throw all this shit against the wall and hope something sticks.[/quote]
It all ties together.

Problem of national debt and immigration can be tied to the past 29 years (save for Clinton's last 2) or so. Riddle me this: how old is the Fed? Then why the fuck are you trying to pin all of the world's social ills on one mechanism that predates these problems by nearly three quarters of a fucking century?

"Ron Paul."
Click to expand...
When you have a horrible monetary policy, you have many problems. Let's say you are born in 1980. Your dad, when you are born puts aside $1,000 that you will get when you turn 21. Fast forward to 2001. Your $1,000 is worth less than half of what is was in 1980. Another example:
You are born in 1930. You grow up, have a successful career, and along the way save some money for retirement. Unfortunately, by the time you are 65, in 1995, your money has lost much of its value. Now you are living paycheck to paycheck off social security, and barely have enough money. 3-5% inflation every year killed your savings. Why is this the way it is? Its because a private bank, owned by all the major banks in the country has a license to print money based on nothing, when they want. The reason we have such a high national debt in this country, is we borrow money from a bank we allow to print money at interest. If there was no debt there would be no money in circulation. The root problems of this depression are the fact that major corporations own the government.
The reason why I talked about immigration, is because I wanted to illustrate the fact that we used to be the land of opportunity. We would have immigrants from all over the world want to come here. Now the illegal immigrants who came here looking for opportunity are fleeing back to their home country. Also, I don't typically call what is going on today socialism, because it isn't.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']When you have a horrible monetary policy, you have many problems. Let's say you are born in 1980. Your dad, when you are born puts aside $1,000 that you will get when you turn 21. Fast forward to 2001. Your $1,000 is worth less than half of what is was in 1980. Another example:
You are born in 1930. You grow up, have a successful career, and along the way save some money for retirement. Unfortunately, by the time you are 65, in 1995, your money has lost much of its value. Now you are living paycheck to paycheck off social security, and barely have enough money. 3-5% inflation every year killed your savings. Why is this the way it is? Its because a private bank, owned by all the major banks in the country has a license to print money based on nothing, when they want. The reason we have such a high national debt in this country, is we borrow money from a bank we allow to print money at interest. If there was no debt there would be no money in circulation. The root problems of this depression are the fact that major corporations own the government.
The reason why I talked about immigration, is because I wanted to illustrate the fact that we used to be the land of opportunity. We would have immigrants from all over the world want to come here. Now the illegal immigrants who came here looking for opportunity are fleeing back to their home country. Also, I don't typically call what is going on today socialism, because it isn't.[/QUOTE]

During the time period of 1930-1995, there would have been a decent return in the stocks, real estate and many businesses. Sticking money into a savings account or CDs has always been a bad idea except for 1929-1945 and 2007-present.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']During the time period of 1930-1995, there would have been a decent return in the stocks, real estate and many businesses. Sticking money into a savings account or CDs has always been a bad idea except for 1929-1945 and 2007-present.[/QUOTE]
You could stick your money into the stock market, or other things, but there is risk in that. Same with CDs. There wasn't risk in having money when it was backed by gold and silver. It simply held steady, or sometimes increased in value. Savings accounts usually cannot keep up with interest.
 
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