SON OF A BITCH!: Learned A Lesson The Hard Way About Shipping To Canada!

Chitown021

Chitown021

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Just before Christmas I sold a Wii on eBay to a Canadian bidder (bought the system for my Aunt but she ended up finding one earlier in the week). I forgot that I allowed shipping to Canada as a default setting on my seller account. No big deal I also had the auction set up to charge extra shipping to compensate for that.

I packaged the system up, purchased shipping via UPS, and took the package to the UPS store. It had been awhile since I shipped to Canada and I knew there was probably some sort of declaration form I would need to include. I filled out the form, listed the contents (1 Wii), and listed the value as $325 (ending price of the auction). The buyer received the system and e-mailed me saying they would not release the package to him until he paid $71! I called UPS and they said due to the value of the item it was deemed a taxable commodity. UPS paid the tax of approx $20 then charged a $51 brokerage fee for doing so! WHAT THE fuck!
 
[quote name='Chitown021']Just before Christmas I sold a Wii on eBay to a Canadian bidder (bought the system for my Aunt but she ended up finding one earlier in the week). I forgot that I allowed shipping to Canada as a default setting on my seller account. No big deal I also had the auction set up to charge extra shipping to compensate for that.

I packaged the system up, purchased shipping via UPS, and took the package to the UPS store. It had been awhile since I shipped to Canada and I knew there was probably some sort of declaration form I would need to include. I filled out the form, listed the contents (1 Wii), and listed the value as $325 (ending price of the auction). The buyer received the system and e-mailed me saying they would not release the package to him until he paid $71! I called UPS and they said due to the value of the item it was deemed a taxable commodity. UPS paid the tax of approx $20 then charged a $51 brokerage fee for doing so! WHAT THE fuck![/quote]
Always declare it to be a small electronic device which costs $20. Some auctions for Wii's have closed for that much, and it gets you around large taxes. I've had several Canadian buyers tell me to declare it as something less because of this.

I shipped a Persona 2 to Canada and declared it as computer software that cost $5 (I bought it for $5 from GameCrazy, so I was telling the truth). Didn't tax a thing.
 
[quote name='djkunai']Always declare it to be a small electronic device which costs $20. Some auctions for Wii's have closed for that much, and it gets you around large taxes. I've had several Canadian buyers tell me to declare it as something less because of this.
.[/quote]


qft
 
I will remember that from now on! I think the last few things I sold to Canadian buyers were individual games that were less than $20 so I didn't run into this. I can understand the $20 tax but to then poke me in the pooper by charging $51, a fee 2.5x the cost of the tax, is just wrong!
 
No, it's because you used UPS. Ups suck ass for shipping to Canada, they charge huge brokerage fees, it's ridiculous. If you had shipped with USPS, the most he would get charged is i think $5 plus 10 or 15% of value, and you don't always get charged.

With UPS you always get charged for anything over $20.
 
[quote name='arfin']No, it's because you used UPS. Ups suck ass for shipping to Canada, they charge huge brokerage fees, it's ridiculous. If you had shipped with USPS, the most he would get charged is i think $5 plus 10 or 15% of value, and you don't always get charged.

With UPS you always get charged for anything over $20.[/quote]

I agree UPS is awful. I was hesitant to use them but standard shipping was reasonable and their tracking system is better and updates more often then USPS. Tracking was the main reason I decided to go with them.
 
[quote name='TehMuff1nM4n']Or, was it karma? Trying to get you for jacking up the price of a Wii? :lol:[/quote]

LOL I was waiting for the first "That's what you get for trying to gouge someone on a Wii" post. You win Muffinman! ;)

I didn't jack up the price, the bidders did. Also is $325 really that bad?

I thought about improperly listing the contents of the package when I shipped it but didn't for two reasons:

1) If the package was lost or damaged I didn't want them to send me a check for $20, the "value" of the package
2) I wasn't sure how throughly they checked packages. I didn't want to get busted and slammed with a fine or something for a fraudulent action.

Like I said earlier I can understand that they had to tax the item $20. If I had only been charged the $20 plus $10 for UPS doing this for me I would understand. I just can't believe I was hit with a $51 brokerage fee! When I was talking to the UPS agent she said "Yeah our flat rate shipping does not include any customs taxes. Our expedited/express services do but that would've cost you $150 - $200 so by far you got the better deal".
 
Private carriers have charged brokerage fees for years.

Even if shipping via USPS, the max you can declare an item to be customs-tax free is $10.
 
Is the buyer threatening you with anything? Like filing a dispute to get his money back if you don't pay him back the import tax + fees? I wonder how Paypal would side in a case like this.

If it were me I'd be tempted to risk it and tell the buyer tough cookies.
 
[quote name='mguiddy']Is the buyer threatening you with anything? Like filing a dispute to get his money back if you don't pay him back the import tax + fees? I wonder how Paypal would side in a case like this.

If it were me I'd be tempted to risk it and tell the buyer tough cookies.[/quote]
He's been pretty cool so far considering how many ass clowns are out there. Many would file a dispute first then ask questions. Last night he told me he got the package, the Wii worked great, but they made him pay $71 before he could have it. He asked me to look into it. I called UPS late last night and sent him an e-mail describing what UPS told me. This morning he sent a response saying it was my fault for not understanding how international shipping worked so he should not be stuck paying the fee. I responded offering a compromise. I offered to refund $35 to meet him in the middle.
 
Next time on the item description write "Gift" and then electronics. Only list the value of the item at retail (insure for what ever you want). Write a little note that says "Congratulations" and toss it in the package. Don't mark it with your eBay account name or anything like that.

This was all garnered from an unwanted wedding gift that I sold to a Canuck a while back for a ridiculous profit due to it's complete unavailability at that time in the socialist utopia that is America's hat.

Tell the buyer it's his responsibility to pay any taxes, fees or tariffs incurred by his country's customs dept. You did your due diligence.
 
[quote name='h3llbring3r']Next time on the item description write "Gift" and then electronics. Only list the value of the item at retail (insure for what ever you want). Write a little note that says "Congratulations" and toss it in the package. Don't mark it with your eBay account name or anything like that.

This was all garnered from an unwanted wedding gift that I sold to a Canuck a while back for a ridiculous profit due to it's complete unavailability at that time in the socialist utopia that is America's hat.

Tell the buyer it's his responsibility to pay any taxes, fees or tariffs incurred by his country's customs dept. You did your due diligence.[/quote]

I will add that little note to my auctions from now on.
 
[quote name='Chitown021']This morning he sent a response saying it was my fault for not understanding how international shipping worked so he should not be stuck paying the fee. I responded offering a compromise. I offered to refund $35 to meet him in the middle.[/quote]
He's saying it's your fault because you don't know that "how international shipping worked", what like you should have marked the value as $5 or that UPS charges an insane fee for paying the import taxes?
Did you say you were shipping UPS in the auction or was that an after thought because it was being shipped to Canada?
If it was in the auction it's entirely his fault for not knowing "how international shipping worked."

You should have offered to pay half of UPS's fees. He should know he'd have to pay import taxes.
 
Why do so many people on the forum bitch about people frauding Walmart by returning free/cheap games for store credit but totally advocate lying on customs forms?

You're stealing from the government, if anything, thats worse that stealing from a retailer.

And OP, shipping fees are the responsibility of the buyer. He has to pay the tarrifs as he is the one that purchased the item and wanted it imported. Its not your fault he wants to shortchange Canadia.
 
[quote name='KSHLove']good thing i never ship outside the US[/QUOTE]

Amen to that... there's enough trouble with assholes and scammers located within the US. Shipping internationally is just more fuel to the fire.
 
In future when shipping to Canada, NEVER EVER EVER EVER ship UPS, stick to USPS. The problem lies not in duties, you no duty on a console, you only pay the sales tax for your province along with the federal sales tax. However UPS charges a sliding handling fee based on the value of the item. In the case of the Wii it should of been declared at $250USD (thats what the Wii is in the states correct?). Had the package been sent via USPS instead of UPS the reciever would of paid sales tax + $8CAD upon recieving it. In the case of my provice I think it would of been around $35 due upon delivery. In the case of your buyer what likely happened he was charged $30-$40 tax and then an additonal 30-$40 "handling fee" via UPS.

How did you state you would ship it to Canada in the auction? Anytime I see an auction that states UPS shipping I steer clear. USPS Priority or EMI is my method of choice for stuff that can't go first class or needs insurance.
 
[quote name='mguiddy']He's saying it's your fault because you don't know that "how international shipping worked", what like you should have marked the value as $5 or that UPS charges an insane fee for paying the import taxes?
Did you say you were shipping UPS in the auction or was that an after thought because it was being shipped to Canada?
If it was in the auction it's entirely his fault for not knowing "how international shipping worked."

You should have offered to pay half of UPS's fees. He should know he'd have to pay import taxes.[/quote]

On the auction I did not say that I would ship UPS. I chose UPS because the S&H rate was comparable to that of USPS and I thought UPS had better tracking. It was listed as "Standard international flat rate shipping"

The guy is obviously an eBay rookie because he has two feedback, one of those from me. I made the mistake of giving him a positive feedback because he paid for the auction via paypal so quickly.
 
[quote name='magiic']In future when shipping to Canada, NEVER EVER EVER EVER ship UPS, stick to USPS. The problem lies not in duties, you no duty on a console, you only pay the sales tax for your province along with the federal sales tax. However UPS charges a sliding handling fee based on the value of the item. In the case of the Wii it should of been declared at $250USD (thats what the Wii is in the states correct?). Had the package been sent via USPS instead of UPS the reciever would of paid sales tax + $8CAD upon recieving it. In the case of my provice I think it would of been around $35 due upon delivery. In the case of your buyer what likely happened he was charged $30-$40 tax and then an additonal 30-$40 "handling fee" via UPS.[/quote]

UPS specifically told me it was $20 tax and $51 brokerage fee.
 
If you stated shipping would be USPS in the auction, then i hate to say it, but it is your fault OP. But it's really the UPS fault, i'm sure if the UPS told you the fees they charge, then you would not ship with them.

I can't imagine the complaints those pricks get, and they still don't warn the person shipping. fuck YOU UPS.
 
[quote name='arfin']If you stated shipping would be USPS in the auction, then i hate to say it, but it is your fault OP. But it's really the UPS fault, i'm sure if the UPS told you the fees they charge, then you would not ship with them.

I can't imagine the complaints those pricks get, and they still don't warn the person shipping. fuck YOU UPS.[/quote]
He said he stated the shipping as "Standard International Flat Rate". Not USPS
 
[quote name='Chitown021']UPS specifically told me it was $20 tax and $51 brokerage fee.[/quote]
the brokerage charge if you had of sent it via Priority or EMI through USPS would of been $8

As another example of how bad the brokerage fees can from UPS, I got a package today that was sent UPS, the declared value was $115USD, I had to pay $55CAD at the door to accept it.

The fault definately falls on the buyer as he should of inquired before hand as to how it was being shipped if he knows so much about international shipments. Not everyone knows about UPS' brokerage nonsense, the OP stated he doesnt often ship big things to Canada and as such wouldn't know any better about UPS.
 
[quote name='mguiddy']He said he stated the shipping as "Standard International Flat Rate". Not USPS[/quote]

Sorry, my page wasn't refreshed when i posted my message and i missed that. OP, are you saying that UPS told you before you shipped the package, or after you called?

And what magiic said NEVER USE UPS WHEN SHIPPING TO CANADA.
 
I actually think as a rule never use UPS when shipping internation. I'm pretty sure the brokerage fees apply across the board regardless what country the packaging is being cleared into.
 
UPS is garbage for shipping anywhere but to your next door neighbor.. thats insane.. 71 extra bucks.. looks like you got your money back to the wii and nothing more -_-
 
I've shipped numerous items well over $20 to Canada and this is the first I've heard about this "Tax".

Then again I use USPS, but if what other people are saying is true, then the people receiving the packages would be charged a tax as well.
 
[quote name='arfin']Sorry, my page wasn't refreshed when i posted my message and i missed that. OP, are you saying that UPS told you before you shipped the package, or after you called?

And what magiic said NEVER USE UPS WHEN SHIPPING TO CANADA.[/quote]


UPS did not tell me anything about brokerage fees until after the package had been delivered and the buyer said he had to pay $71 COD before they would release the package to him. That's when he contacted me and asked me to "look into it". I called UPS and the lady on the phone told me thier standard rate shipping to Canada does not include taxes or any other fees associated with the package clearing customs. She also told me the tax was assessed based on the value of the item and there was no way for me to know about the tax or brokerage fees ahead of time.

I printed the UPS label off the internet but I went into the UPS store so I could speak with someone before shipping to make sure I filled out all appropriate forms. Nobody at the store said anything to me about it either. I had no clue this would happen prior to shipping. I hate UPS. I should've went with my instincts and stuck with USPS but I made my decision based on a comparison of the S&H rates of the basic level of services both offered. They are both very close in price. The deciding factor is that UPS's tracking is generally more accurate and up to date so I went with them.
 
[quote name='KingofOldSchool']I've shipped numerous items well over $20 to Canada and this is the first I've heard about this "Tax".

Then again I use USPS, but if what other people are saying is true, then the people receiving the packages would be charged a tax as well.[/quote]

The buyer was charged the entire $71 amount COD. My issue is he's now wanting me to pay him back because he feels it's my responsibility since I didn't know what I was doing when I shipped to Canada. I decided I would be cool about it and I offered to split the burden with him. I offered to refund him $35. I'm still waiting for a response from him.
 
[quote name='Chitown021']The buyer was charged the entire $71 amount COD. My issue is he's now wanting me to pay him back because he feels it's my responsibility since I didn't know what I was doing when I shipped to Canada. I decided I would be cool about it and I offered to split the burden with him. I offered to refund him $35. I'm still waiting for a response from him.[/quote]

Even though you didnt know, its kind of your duty to find out exactly what the taxes would be. He already paid for shipping.. I dont think its fair for him to pay anything else.. Coming from him his side, I do think its fair for you to have to pay the 71, he paid teh shipping and in the auction it does say shipping to canada..

So i guess its kind of implied you would be pay shipping costs, which the tax is included in on -_-V

Sorry :(
 
[quote name='Kayden']
And OP, shipping fees are the responsibility of the buyer. He has to pay the tarrifs as he is the one that purchased the item and wanted it imported. Its not your fault he wants to shortchange Canadia.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree here. The buyer pays any import/duty fees. There's no way around them (if you do what you are supposed to) so it is his responsibility.

The most you could have done for him was to put the value at $250 - that way if it is lost you get at least the purchase price back (there's some question as to whether you would get the 'inflated' value anyway - they may just give you the MSRP of it anyway, so no point putting more down). And perhaps mark it as a gift - see no harm in that (and I don't think it makes much difference anyway). But marking it as $20 or something is not only wrong but will screw you over on the insurance should something happen to it.

I've never sold anything more expensive than a GB player to Canada (and this was at least a year ago) - but I did ship UPS and put the full value on it ($70 or so). I never heard a word from the buyer. I do send games there occasionally and especially if the shipping is via first-class (thus no insurance anyway) I will often put the value at what I paid for it and not at what they may have paid on ebay. I think that is fair.
 
Shipping outside the country kind of puts you between a rock and a hard place when dealing with bigger ticket items like a Wii. I ship stuff every day at my job (I do e-commerce for a lighting retailer), and I would never in a million years trust the United States Postal Service with something like that. I've had them lose or accidentally destroy too many packages. The flipside is that I would also never undervalue something I paid for with UPS (or FedEx or DHL), because if they lost it (and I've had them all lose enough packages to risk shortchanging it), they'd only be liable to give me a hundred bucks out of the $250 I paid for the thing.

So it's a sticky situation, and it kind of sucks for everyone involved. $71 is outrageous, but the flipside is that Canadians who order stuff from the States always have to pay extra for it. My brother-in-law lives in Canada with his girlfriend right now, and we just sent them gift cards for Christmas so they wouldn't have to pay to have their own presents released. It sucks, but that's just the way it is.

I think your offer to pay half is a good compromise on your part. I know you feel bad about it, but you're trying to do right by this person and these things happen, so I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. It's unreasonable for the buyer to expect you to shoulder the entirety of the cost on this, when he should have been expecting to pay something anyways. Maybe not $71, but something.

I would chalk this up as a learning experience and don't ship to Canada anymore. Unless it fits in a padded envelope, it's rarely worth the hassle when there's no shortage of buyers who you don't have to fill out extra paperwork to ship to.
 
[quote name='beefyjr']Shipping outside the country kind of puts you between a rock and a hard place when dealing with bigger ticket items like a Wii. I ship stuff every day at my job (I do e-commerce for a lighting retailer), and I would never in a million years trust the United States Postal Service with something like that. I've had them lose or accidentally destroy too many packages. The flipside is that I would also never undervalue something I paid for with UPS (or FedEx or DHL), because if they lost it (and I've had them all lose enough packages to risk shortchanging it), they'd only be liable to give me a hundred bucks out of the $250 I paid for the thing.

So it's a sticky situation, and it kind of sucks for everyone involved. $71 is outrageous, but the flipside is that Canadians who order stuff from the States always have to pay extra for it. My brother-in-law lives in Canada with his girlfriend right now, and we just sent them gift cards for Christmas so they wouldn't have to pay to have their own presents released. It sucks, but that's just the way it is.

I think your offer to pay half is a good compromise on your part. I know you feel bad about it, but you're trying to do right by this person and these things happen, so I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. It's unreasonable for the buyer to expect you to shoulder the entirety of the cost on this, when he should have been expecting to pay something anyways. Maybe not $71, but something.

I would chalk this up as a learning experience and don't ship to Canada anymore. Unless it fits in a padded envelope, it's rarely worth the hassle when there's no shortage of buyers who you don't have to fill out extra paperwork to ship to.[/quote]

That's basically the way I'm approaching things. I've stayed in constant contact with the buyer since the start and that's why I offered to refund $35 to meet in the middle and resolve the problem. Now I know and as G.I. Joe taught me as a kid "Knowing is half the battle" ;) Lesson learned. I suppose if I wanted to be a real prick I could tell him "Well the auction said I would pay for standard shipping only. I never said anything about paying taxes or brokerage fees" but I don't do business like that.

I'll update the thread once I get a response. My worry now is that my proposed compromise won't be good enough and he's going to go ass ape and demand the whole thing.
 
[quote name='KSHLove']good thing i never ship outside the US[/QUOTE]
except for some items that are not available outside of US, and will go for a lot more from international buyer.
 
[quote name='KingofOldSchool']I've shipped numerous items well over $20 to Canada and this is the first I've heard about this "Tax".

Then again I use USPS, but if what other people are saying is true, then the people receiving the packages would be charged a tax as well.[/quote]

to better explain how the system works on stuff coming into Canada...

If an item is declared at less than $20CAD, it is non taxable. If item has a value over $20CAD it is taxable. However, if an item is marked as a GIFT on the customs form it is tax free up to $60CAD. As an example to better explain the gift option, if an item is declared at $50CAD, no tax is paid. If an item is declared $100, $60 of that $100 is tax free and the remaining $40 is taxed at the provincial and federal tax rates alongside a $5 handling/brokerage fee ($8 for Priority or EMI)

Hope that clears things up. The tax aspect holds true across all carriers however it is the brokerage/handling fee that is up to the carrier, if sending via USPS it is only $5 for First-Class and $8 for Priority & EMI
 
It's certainly a nice gesture OP, but I think the buyer should be responsible for any sort of shipping and taxes charged on the item.

Most of the outrageous cost might be from UPS' handling fee, but if you didn't explicitely said shipping would be done through USPS, and this guy didn't bother to contact you about your shipping method or making arrangements beforehand, then he dropped the ball.

Then again, you might have to just chalk this up if you want to avoid an angst-ridden neg from a newb.
 
[quote name='mrelusive']It's certainly a nice gesture OP, but I think the buyer should be responsible for any sort of shipping and taxes charged on the item.

Most of the outrageous cost might be from UPS' handling fee, but if you didn't explicitely said shipping would be done through USPS, and this guy didn't bother to contact you about your shipping method or making arrangements beforehand, then he dropped the ball.

Then again, you might have to just chalk this up if you want to avoid an angst-ridden neg from a newb.[/quote]


I look at it this way. If I were in the buyers shoes I would be upset. I would've never given UPS the $71. I would have refused the package and contacted the seller to sort it out but I would not want to have to pay $71 on top of the over $300 I agreed to pay at the conclusion of the auction.

I wonder what would've happened if he would have refused the package because of the COD? Would UPS then have returned the package to me and hit me up for the $71?
 
OP, i hope you don't quit shipping to Canada because of this. Just ship via usps and everything should be fine. Some posters say it aint worth it shipping to Canadians, but we really do appreciate it.
 
[quote name='-Never4ever-']note to self, when shipping to Canada, everything is worthless.[/quote]

QFT. Everything I order from Hong Kong/Japan is marked as "Gift" or "Present" and valued at under $10 USD no matter how much I paid.
 
[quote name='Chitown021']

I wonder what would've happened if he would have refused the package because of the COD? Would UPS then have returned the package to me and hit me up for the $71?[/quote]
you wouldn't of had to pay the COD as far as I am aware however you would of had to pay return postage.


One thing I learned the hard way though. If returned merchandise is not properly delclared (ie not tagged as other on the custom form and described as return of goods) it will be taxed and the brokerage fee applied. For example on a $650 item the tax will be about $84, the brokerage fee will be another $100 or so dollars. You will be required to pay this to accept the product you have already exported once.
 
[quote name='arfin']OP, i hope you don't quit shipping to Canada because of this. Just ship via usps and everything should be fine. Some posters say it aint worth it shipping to Canadians, but we really do appreciate it.[/quote]

Most of the stuff I've shipped to Canada before this was small items like single games and a few small accessories. I won't stop shipping to Canada I'll just be better informed about it for next time.

EDIT: I'm still awaiting a response from the buyer following my offer to refund $35.
 
I got a response back from the buyer today. He said "I guess that seems fair. Thank you for doing that, I appreciate it."

I guess in the end I learned a $35 lesson about shipping to Canada. I will be adding a disclaimer to all future auctions making it clear that the amount paid for shipping covers S&H only and that any costs associated with the item clearing customs are the sole responsibility of the buyer.
 
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