panzerfaust
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blackouts tonight 
SOPA anyone?
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joeboosauce
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Wow, someone who looks at the big picture and is getting caught up in yet another boogey man... Is piracy simply an inflated problem (much like terrorism) that masks much deeper flaws which serves to push through other freedom restricting agendas? The internet is a Pandora's Box that is not working out in the way the ruling establishment wants.
Tim O’Reilly: Why I’m fighting SOPA
By Colleen Taylor Jan. 13, 2012, 5:00am PT
http://gigaom.com/2012/01/13/tim-oreilly-why-im-fighting-sopa/
As the debate about the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) rages on from Silicon Valley to Washington DC, a number of the technology industry’s most influential leaders have come out againstthe proposed legislation, which would give the government and private corporations unprecedented powers to remove websites from the internet for any alleged copyright infringement. On Thursday, I interviewed Tim O’Reilly about why he believes SOPA is wrong and what the tech industry can do to stop it. His concerns fell into five main categories:
Piracy is not a real problem
Tim O’Reilly: Why I’m fighting SOPA
By Colleen Taylor Jan. 13, 2012, 5:00am PT
http://gigaom.com/2012/01/13/tim-oreilly-why-im-fighting-sopa/
As the debate about the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) rages on from Silicon Valley to Washington DC, a number of the technology industry’s most influential leaders have come out againstthe proposed legislation, which would give the government and private corporations unprecedented powers to remove websites from the internet for any alleged copyright infringement. On Thursday, I interviewed Tim O’Reilly about why he believes SOPA is wrong and what the tech industry can do to stop it. His concerns fell into five main categories:
Piracy is not a real problem
The way I see it, there’s a lack of need for any legislation at all. As a publisher, I have a very deep experience here, and the fact is that piracy is not a significant problem. Yes, there are people who are pirating my books, there are people who are sharing links to places where they can be downloaded. But the vast majority of customers are willing to pay if the product is widely available and the price is fair. If you have a relationship with your customers, and they know you’re doing the right thing, they will support you.
The people who are pirating are most likely the people who would never give you a nickel to begin with. Piracy serves people on the fringes who are not being served adequately by legitimate markets. Frankly, if people in Romania can download my books and enjoy them, more power to them. They weren’t going to pay me anyway.
SOPA protects the wrong peopleThe people who are pirating are most likely the people who would never give you a nickel to begin with. Piracy serves people on the fringes who are not being served adequately by legitimate markets. Frankly, if people in Romania can download my books and enjoy them, more power to them. They weren’t going to pay me anyway.
I talked with Nancy Pelosi about SOPA the other day, and she said that the experience with piracy is different for people in the movie industry. Maybe — I’m not a movie producer. But I do know that right now the entire content industry is facing massive systemic changes, and to claim that declining sales are because of piracy is so over the top. Any company that is providing great content online in a way that’s easy to use with a fair price has a booming business right now. The people who don’t are trying to fight that future.
So here we have this legislation, with all of these possible harms, to solve a problem that only exists in the minds of people who are afraid of the future. Why should the government be intervening on behalf of the people who aren’t getting with the program?
SOPA ignores historySo here we have this legislation, with all of these possible harms, to solve a problem that only exists in the minds of people who are afraid of the future. Why should the government be intervening on behalf of the people who aren’t getting with the program?
If you look at it from a historical perspective, the American book publishing industry as a whole began with piracy; there are lots of documents of Charles Dickens and the like taking a stand against these American pirates who were stealing their work. But America went on to become the largest publishing and copyright market in the world. Once the market matures, the pirates go away. They always do. Legitimate markets work better than pirate markets.
More recently you can see this in what happened with the music industry. For a while, music companies were fighting peer-to-peer file sharing. But once Apple came out with iTunes, which was an alternative that was easy to use and fairly priced, it became a huge business. Our policy makers need to encourage the people who get it right, not protect people who clearly didn’t get it right. They need to protect our future.
Tech and lobbying don’t mixMore recently you can see this in what happened with the music industry. For a while, music companies were fighting peer-to-peer file sharing. But once Apple came out with iTunes, which was an alternative that was easy to use and fairly priced, it became a huge business. Our policy makers need to encourage the people who get it right, not protect people who clearly didn’t get it right. They need to protect our future.
Certainly, the tech industry needs to do a lot more lobbying in Washington, DC. But the whole notion of lobbying is anathema to so many tech people, and for good reason. We’re used to a world in which people design products that have a purpose, where your work speaks for itself. So yes, the tech industry should try to communicate more with the people in DC, but at the same time, congresspeople need to use more of their own independent judgement.
[Update: O'Reilly has expanded upon the topic of tech industry lobbying in a Google+ post, which can be found here. A portion of his additional comments has been added below.]
For example, when I talked with Nancy Pelosi at [San Francisco] Mayor Ed Lee’s inauguration on Sunday, she assured me that she was opposed to SOPA, but that the bill couldn’t just be voted down because of the concerns of the movie industry. I had this bizarre image of the Google Search Quality team meeting with content farms before rolling out the Panda search update to “take into account their concerns.” In the end, Google was making changes that they knew were in the best interest of their users, and the fact that this would hurt the business of various companies producing low-quality content shouldn’t (and presumably didn’t) enter into the equation.
… This isn’t a matter of simply weighing the concerns of one set of lobbyists against those of another, but using a standard of care and independent judgment about what is best for our society. If Congress isn’t knowledgeable enough to make that determination, they need to be consulting independent experts, not lobbyists for one side or the other.
The US needs tech innovation[Update: O'Reilly has expanded upon the topic of tech industry lobbying in a Google+ post, which can be found here. A portion of his additional comments has been added below.]
For example, when I talked with Nancy Pelosi at [San Francisco] Mayor Ed Lee’s inauguration on Sunday, she assured me that she was opposed to SOPA, but that the bill couldn’t just be voted down because of the concerns of the movie industry. I had this bizarre image of the Google Search Quality team meeting with content farms before rolling out the Panda search update to “take into account their concerns.” In the end, Google was making changes that they knew were in the best interest of their users, and the fact that this would hurt the business of various companies producing low-quality content shouldn’t (and presumably didn’t) enter into the equation.
… This isn’t a matter of simply weighing the concerns of one set of lobbyists against those of another, but using a standard of care and independent judgment about what is best for our society. If Congress isn’t knowledgeable enough to make that determination, they need to be consulting independent experts, not lobbyists for one side or the other.
Laws like SOPA make us sclerotic as a country, where we have all these extra burdens that provide little benefit. In general it makes America less competitive. If SOPA goes through, it could very well force certain innovative companies to go offshore. There are incumbent industries that will always protest every new technology; but any forward-looking country needs to protect its emerging industries.
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joeboosauce
CAGiversary!
This is relevant to this discussion and demonstrates where all this stuff is leading...
Homeland Security Hired Contractor to Monitor Websites
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/1/17/headlines#7
Newly released government documents have revealed the Department of Homeland Security hired the military contractor General Dynamics to monitor postings of U.S. citizens on dozens of websites. Sites monitored included Facebook and Twitter, as well as several news sites including the New York Times, Wired and The Huffington Post. General Dynamics was asked to collect reports that dealt with government agencies including the CIA, FEMA and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Ginger McCall of the Electronic Privacy Information Center said the documents show the Department of Homeland Security was "monitoring political dissent online."
If you aren't familiar with Sonoma State University's Project Censored, check them out and their annual listing. No, they would never use this on the US public. Never!
US Military Manipulates the Social Media
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/2-us-military-manipulates-the-social-media/
The US military is developing software that will allow it to secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda. A Californian corporation has been awarded a contract with US Central Command (CENTCOM), which oversees US armed operations in the Middle East and Central Asia, to develop an “online persona management service” that will allow one US serviceman or woman to control up to ten separate identities based all over the world. The CENTCOM contract stipulates that each fake online persona must have a convincing background, history and supporting details, and that up to 50 US-based controllers be able to manage false identities from their workstations.
The multiple persona contract is thought to have been awarded as part of a program called Operation Earnest Voice (OEV), which was first developed in Iraq as a psychological warfare weapon against the online presence of al Qaeda supporters and other extremists resisting the US military and political presence in Iraq. This effort proved successful and is now being used elsewhere in the Middle East and beyond with assurances that none of these interventions would happen here at home, as it would be unlawful to “address US audiences” with such technology.
Source:
“Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media,” Nick Fielding and Ian Cobain, Guardian, March 17, 2011.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
Student Researcher: Michael Smith, San Francisco State University
Faculty Evaluator: Ken Burrows, San Francisco State University
Student Researcher: Wend-Kouni Deo-Gratias Nintiema
Faculty Evaluator: Julie Andrzejewski, St. Cloud State University; Mickey Huff, Diablo Valley College
Homeland Security Hired Contractor to Monitor Websites
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/1/17/headlines#7
Newly released government documents have revealed the Department of Homeland Security hired the military contractor General Dynamics to monitor postings of U.S. citizens on dozens of websites. Sites monitored included Facebook and Twitter, as well as several news sites including the New York Times, Wired and The Huffington Post. General Dynamics was asked to collect reports that dealt with government agencies including the CIA, FEMA and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Ginger McCall of the Electronic Privacy Information Center said the documents show the Department of Homeland Security was "monitoring political dissent online."
If you aren't familiar with Sonoma State University's Project Censored, check them out and their annual listing. No, they would never use this on the US public. Never!
US Military Manipulates the Social Media
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/2-us-military-manipulates-the-social-media/
The US military is developing software that will allow it to secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda. A Californian corporation has been awarded a contract with US Central Command (CENTCOM), which oversees US armed operations in the Middle East and Central Asia, to develop an “online persona management service” that will allow one US serviceman or woman to control up to ten separate identities based all over the world. The CENTCOM contract stipulates that each fake online persona must have a convincing background, history and supporting details, and that up to 50 US-based controllers be able to manage false identities from their workstations.
The multiple persona contract is thought to have been awarded as part of a program called Operation Earnest Voice (OEV), which was first developed in Iraq as a psychological warfare weapon against the online presence of al Qaeda supporters and other extremists resisting the US military and political presence in Iraq. This effort proved successful and is now being used elsewhere in the Middle East and beyond with assurances that none of these interventions would happen here at home, as it would be unlawful to “address US audiences” with such technology.
Source:
“Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media,” Nick Fielding and Ian Cobain, Guardian, March 17, 2011.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
Student Researcher: Michael Smith, San Francisco State University
Faculty Evaluator: Ken Burrows, San Francisco State University
Student Researcher: Wend-Kouni Deo-Gratias Nintiema
Faculty Evaluator: Julie Andrzejewski, St. Cloud State University; Mickey Huff, Diablo Valley College
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[quote name='Clak']Ripping movies is only illegal if they contain software which prevents their copying. Which unfortunately most do. Now I'm sure somewhere out there a MPAA lawyer would disagree with me and say it's illegal across the board, but then I'd expect that.[/QUOTE]
I know. I was just saying that while I'm very anti-piracy, I'm also against DRM.
I don't think publishers or creators should be able to keep people who buy a legitimate copy of their work from making copies of it for personal use like we can with music. They should just be prohibited from distributing copies or keeping a copy if they get rid of the original.
DRM does nothing to thwart pirates who are generally tech savvy types and have no problems getting around, and thus just limits what should be legitimate fair use of the content for people who legally buy the content.
I know. I was just saying that while I'm very anti-piracy, I'm also against DRM.
I don't think publishers or creators should be able to keep people who buy a legitimate copy of their work from making copies of it for personal use like we can with music. They should just be prohibited from distributing copies or keeping a copy if they get rid of the original.
DRM does nothing to thwart pirates who are generally tech savvy types and have no problems getting around, and thus just limits what should be legitimate fair use of the content for people who legally buy the content.
panzerfaust
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Few pirates are very tech savvy at all, or even know what DRM means.
I guess the monster uploaders probably are though.
I guess the monster uploaders probably are though.
Back in the heyday of napster, I would dl music like a I was a pirate on the high seas at 3kps on dial up or go into server rooms on AOL chat. It was great! Mislabeled tracks at 96 bitrate encodes that took 30 minutes to get. Nowadays, I spend my time looking for 10+ year old obscure progressive house remixes that were released only on vinyls that are impossible to buy(and impossible to download too). What's an old fist pumper supposed to do when he needs to get his fist pump on!
But yeah, I'm with joeboosauce and clak on this one. The problem runs deeper than people pirating the latest Britney single. Although, I find it interesting that the government is only now using 30 year old marketing techniques for social control, but I guess social media didn't exist like it does until recently. The whole dabacle has less to do with piracy and more to do with information control, which is why the government along with the slight push of multi-national media conglmerates(who am I kidding, they're practically the same at this point) are looking to get more involved.
But yeah, I'm with joeboosauce and clak on this one. The problem runs deeper than people pirating the latest Britney single. Although, I find it interesting that the government is only now using 30 year old marketing techniques for social control, but I guess social media didn't exist like it does until recently. The whole dabacle has less to do with piracy and more to do with information control, which is why the government along with the slight push of multi-national media conglmerates(who am I kidding, they're practically the same at this point) are looking to get more involved.
[quote name='panzerfaust']Few pirates are very tech savvy at all, or even know what DRM means.
I guess the monster uploaders probably are though.[/QUOTE]
Can't agree with that. It takes some level of tech savvy ness to figure out bit torrent programs. Find the torrent you want. Have to deal with .RAR compression a lot of the times, even for legit content like live albums from bands that allow fan taping and trading of shows.
So a pirate either has to be savvy enough to strip DRM, or at least savvy enough to find the torrents with the content they want with DRM already stripped.
As far as I know, it's not nearly as easy/automated as in the Napster days. Maybe I'm just old and outdated on tech though. I always struggle everytime I attend a DMB show and want to get a fan taping afterwards with figuring out how to use a torrent program, finding a program to unzip RAR files, convert FLAC to MP3 etc. etc.
Wish they'd just sell soundboard recordings of every live show like Pearl Jam does. I'd rather pay than go through all that hassle!
I guess the monster uploaders probably are though.[/QUOTE]
Can't agree with that. It takes some level of tech savvy ness to figure out bit torrent programs. Find the torrent you want. Have to deal with .RAR compression a lot of the times, even for legit content like live albums from bands that allow fan taping and trading of shows.
So a pirate either has to be savvy enough to strip DRM, or at least savvy enough to find the torrents with the content they want with DRM already stripped.
As far as I know, it's not nearly as easy/automated as in the Napster days. Maybe I'm just old and outdated on tech though. I always struggle everytime I attend a DMB show and want to get a fan taping afterwards with figuring out how to use a torrent program, finding a program to unzip RAR files, convert FLAC to MP3 etc. etc.
Wish they'd just sell soundboard recordings of every live show like Pearl Jam does. I'd rather pay than go through all that hassle!
[quote name='dohdough']Back in the heyday of napster, I would dl music like a I was a pirate on the high seas at 3kps on dial up or go into server rooms on AOL chat. It was great! Mislabeled tracks at 96 bitrate encodes that took 30 minutes to get. Nowadays, I spend my time looking for 10+ year old obscure progressive house remixes that were released only on vinyls that are impossible to buy(and impossible to download too). What's an old fist pumper supposed to do when he needs to get his fist pump on!
But yeah, I'm with joeboosauce and clak on this one. The problem runs deeper than people pirating the latest Britney single. Although, I find it interesting that the government is only now using 30 year old marketing techniques for social control, but I guess social media didn't exist like it does until recently. The whole dabacle has less to do with piracy and more to do with information control, which is why the government along with the slight push of multi-national media conglmerates(who am I kidding, they're practically the same at this point) are looking to get more involved.[/QUOTE]
Sure the problem runs deeper. As I stated earlier, it goes back to controlling information and how it is disseminated = economic power. These companies are looking to earn money by creating new licensing revenues and getting a piece of that advertising pie. This is why the AP has been taking Google to court for a few years now.
Having said all that, at the end of the day stealing is stealing, and these companies are entitled to their money but they have to give us our day in court (due process).
But yeah, I'm with joeboosauce and clak on this one. The problem runs deeper than people pirating the latest Britney single. Although, I find it interesting that the government is only now using 30 year old marketing techniques for social control, but I guess social media didn't exist like it does until recently. The whole dabacle has less to do with piracy and more to do with information control, which is why the government along with the slight push of multi-national media conglmerates(who am I kidding, they're practically the same at this point) are looking to get more involved.[/QUOTE]
Sure the problem runs deeper. As I stated earlier, it goes back to controlling information and how it is disseminated = economic power. These companies are looking to earn money by creating new licensing revenues and getting a piece of that advertising pie. This is why the AP has been taking Google to court for a few years now.
Having said all that, at the end of the day stealing is stealing, and these companies are entitled to their money but they have to give us our day in court (due process).
[quote name='panzerfaust']Few pirates are very tech savvy at all, or even know what DRM means.
I guess the monster uploaders probably are though.[/QUOTE]
Oh I see, so you vilify the folks who provide all the pirated content (the true pillars of that community) but not the individuals who download said content. At the end of the day it has nothing to do with how tech savy one is because ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.
I guess the monster uploaders probably are though.[/QUOTE]
Oh I see, so you vilify the folks who provide all the pirated content (the true pillars of that community) but not the individuals who download said content. At the end of the day it has nothing to do with how tech savy one is because ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.
[quote name='kill3r7']What decades of law? You mean the decades of law that required you to delete your backup copy upon selling the original. Or do you mean the industries response to piracy by create shrink wrap licenses (which are abhorring). We did this to ourselves.
P.S. public use exception might still protect teachers today although I assume most companies require a multi licenses today.[/QUOTE]
No shit Sherlock, I'm not new to the rodeo. And you missed my point entirely about making backups. It isn't an issue of having multiple licenses, every backup copy had it's own original it was copied from. My point is that today, making those backups probably wouldn't even be possible.
And bullshit we brought it on ourselves.
P.S. public use exception might still protect teachers today although I assume most companies require a multi licenses today.[/QUOTE]
No shit Sherlock, I'm not new to the rodeo. And you missed my point entirely about making backups. It isn't an issue of having multiple licenses, every backup copy had it's own original it was copied from. My point is that today, making those backups probably wouldn't even be possible.
And bullshit we brought it on ourselves.
[quote name='Clak']
And bullshit we brought it on ourselves.[/QUOTE]
Well I think it partly was brought on by consumers. If people stuck with making back up copies for themselves while keeping the original there wouldn't have been much need for DRM and all this nonsense. If no one ever pirated anything, there'd be no need for copy protection.
But more than that it was just the rise of the internet and broadband, and the invention of digital media files. It's just much easier to create perfect copies and distributed them to unlimited numbers of people than it was when things had to be copied to a disc or CD etc.
With the movie to the digital age, piracy became a much bigger threat as it was easy and anyone with some computer knowledge could easly upload and download copyrighted material.
In any case, these threads always go in circles and I really don't know why I let myself always get sucked into them. I guess because I'm so anti-piracy and so strongly supportive of copyright laws that protect a creators right to control and profit from their creations during their lifetime.
But it's still a waste of time. Immoral shit stains who pirate stuff are going to pirate stuff. Just an unfortunate fact of life in the digital age, and makes me damn glad I'm not trying to make money selling any kind of media product.
And bullshit we brought it on ourselves.[/QUOTE]
Well I think it partly was brought on by consumers. If people stuck with making back up copies for themselves while keeping the original there wouldn't have been much need for DRM and all this nonsense. If no one ever pirated anything, there'd be no need for copy protection.
But more than that it was just the rise of the internet and broadband, and the invention of digital media files. It's just much easier to create perfect copies and distributed them to unlimited numbers of people than it was when things had to be copied to a disc or CD etc.
With the movie to the digital age, piracy became a much bigger threat as it was easy and anyone with some computer knowledge could easly upload and download copyrighted material.
In any case, these threads always go in circles and I really don't know why I let myself always get sucked into them. I guess because I'm so anti-piracy and so strongly supportive of copyright laws that protect a creators right to control and profit from their creations during their lifetime.
But it's still a waste of time. Immoral shit stains who pirate stuff are going to pirate stuff. Just an unfortunate fact of life in the digital age, and makes me damn glad I'm not trying to make money selling any kind of media product.
[quote name='Clak']No shit Sherlock, I'm not new to the rodeo. And you missed my point entirely about making backups. It isn't an issue of having multiple licenses, every backup copy had it's own original it was copied from. My point is that today, making those backups probably wouldn't even be possible.
And bullshit we brought it on ourselves.[/QUOTE]
Actually I prefer Watson but I didn't miss your point. I was just covering all my bases. The reason you can't copy most of the content out there today is because these companies lobbied to have the law changed as a response to piracy, be it real or not. Thus
ing up copyright law for perpetuity. They would have never had any grounds to change the law but for our actions.
And bullshit we brought it on ourselves.[/QUOTE]
Actually I prefer Watson but I didn't miss your point. I was just covering all my bases. The reason you can't copy most of the content out there today is because these companies lobbied to have the law changed as a response to piracy, be it real or not. Thus
ing up copyright law for perpetuity. They would have never had any grounds to change the law but for our actions.
panzerfaust
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Can't agree with that. It takes some level of tech savvy ness to figure out bit torrent programs. Find the torrent you want. Have to deal with .RAR compression a lot of the times, even for legit content like live albums from bands that allow fan taping and trading of shows.
[/QUOTE]
Download movie? Done.
Music? Unzip.
That's two of the biggest mediums right there and involve skills that everyone already has. If you can figure iTunes out, then you can definitely manage to drag and drop a file into uTorrent. Kids downloaded their music when I was in highschool, I can only imagine how much they know these days. Yeah Napster/Limewire are dead, but there's tons of software out there that do the same thing and better (no torrent applications involved). Pull any student aside and see if their 3,000 mp3s on their iPhone were actually bought with $3,000. Any student.
Truly un-tech savvy people will google "how do i download a youtube song" and bam, they get the program to do it -- albeit a really shitty one. If you're talking about mounting images and using cracks, that is a little more advanced, but most people have figured out how to look through comments/search engines to find the simple steps necessary. I think it's on yahoo answers.
Hope I don't sound condescending, technology moves very fast these days, so it's understandable if you've been out of the loop. But pretty much every person is downloading a TV series, a movie, whatever. Years ago when Windows 7 came out, people on my dorm floor just walked around handing that shit out. Didn't even ask for it, but it was a nice gift.
[quote name='kill3r7']Oh I see, so you vilify the folks who provide all the pirated content (the true pillars of that community) but not the individuals who download said content. At the end of the day it has nothing to do with how tech savy one is because ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.[/QUOTE]
Wut.
I was just admitting that if you're some guy who manages to upload Skyward Sword to the web the night it comes out, you probably know a thing or two -- whereas pirates consuming files just click away without having any idea how things actually function.
And I don't wish to vilify anyone, I'm pretty happy that pirating can exist.
[/QUOTE]
Download movie? Done.
Music? Unzip.
That's two of the biggest mediums right there and involve skills that everyone already has. If you can figure iTunes out, then you can definitely manage to drag and drop a file into uTorrent. Kids downloaded their music when I was in highschool, I can only imagine how much they know these days. Yeah Napster/Limewire are dead, but there's tons of software out there that do the same thing and better (no torrent applications involved). Pull any student aside and see if their 3,000 mp3s on their iPhone were actually bought with $3,000. Any student.
Truly un-tech savvy people will google "how do i download a youtube song" and bam, they get the program to do it -- albeit a really shitty one. If you're talking about mounting images and using cracks, that is a little more advanced, but most people have figured out how to look through comments/search engines to find the simple steps necessary. I think it's on yahoo answers.
Hope I don't sound condescending, technology moves very fast these days, so it's understandable if you've been out of the loop. But pretty much every person is downloading a TV series, a movie, whatever. Years ago when Windows 7 came out, people on my dorm floor just walked around handing that shit out. Didn't even ask for it, but it was a nice gift.
[quote name='kill3r7']Oh I see, so you vilify the folks who provide all the pirated content (the true pillars of that community) but not the individuals who download said content. At the end of the day it has nothing to do with how tech savy one is because ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.[/QUOTE]
Wut.
I was just admitting that if you're some guy who manages to upload Skyward Sword to the web the night it comes out, you probably know a thing or two -- whereas pirates consuming files just click away without having any idea how things actually function.
And I don't wish to vilify anyone, I'm pretty happy that pirating can exist.
joeboosauce
CAGiversary!
[quote name='panzerfaust']Download movie? Done.
Music? Unzip.
That's two of the biggest mediums right there and involve skills that everyone already has. If you can figure iTunes out, then you can definitely manage to drag and drop a file into uTorrent. Kids downloaded their music when I was in highschool, I can only imagine how much they know these days. Yeah Napster/Limewire are dead, but there's tons of software out there that do the same thing and better (no torrent applications involved). Pull any student aside and see if their 3,000 mp3s on their iPhone were actually bought with $3,000. Any student.
Truly un-tech savvy people will google "how do i download a youtube song" and bam, they get the program to do it -- albeit a really shitty one. If you're talking about mounting images and using cracks, that is a little more advanced, but most people have figured out how to look through comments/search engines to find the simple steps necessary. I think it's on yahoo answers.
Hope I don't sound condescending, technology moves very fast these days, so it's understandable if you've been out of the loop. But pretty much every person is downloading a TV series, a movie, whatever. Years ago when Windows 7 came out, people on my dorm floor just walked around handing that shit out. Didn't even ask for it, but it was a nice gift.
Wut.
I was just admitting that if you're some guy who manages to upload Skyward Sword to the web the night it comes out, you probably know a thing or two -- whereas pirates consuming files just click away without having any idea how things actually function.
And I don't wish to vilify anyone, I'm pretty happy that pirating can exist.[/QUOTE]
Most people I know are not tech savvy enough to download movies, etc. Most people have never heard the word torrent in my experience. Most people think that it is dangerous and have not idea how to download. Especially Apple users who are pretty much prevented from anything other than point and click. iTunes really does a good job hamstringing the user and most are content within that controlled environment. Its so easy to click and buy they won't bother with go to this torrent site, then... LOST EM! Seriously, there are studies that most people will quit after 3 clicks. When computers crash or have problems people ask me for help and simple problem solving skills are missing. "How about you Google that?" Then a shrug of shoulders. I think you are overestimating the end user. Anyhow, piracy is does not provide the economic impact that these industries claim. Its just a way to offset their own crappy industry. Read the article above I posted. We shouldn't even be concerned with THEIR issue of "piracy."
Music? Unzip.
That's two of the biggest mediums right there and involve skills that everyone already has. If you can figure iTunes out, then you can definitely manage to drag and drop a file into uTorrent. Kids downloaded their music when I was in highschool, I can only imagine how much they know these days. Yeah Napster/Limewire are dead, but there's tons of software out there that do the same thing and better (no torrent applications involved). Pull any student aside and see if their 3,000 mp3s on their iPhone were actually bought with $3,000. Any student.
Truly un-tech savvy people will google "how do i download a youtube song" and bam, they get the program to do it -- albeit a really shitty one. If you're talking about mounting images and using cracks, that is a little more advanced, but most people have figured out how to look through comments/search engines to find the simple steps necessary. I think it's on yahoo answers.
Hope I don't sound condescending, technology moves very fast these days, so it's understandable if you've been out of the loop. But pretty much every person is downloading a TV series, a movie, whatever. Years ago when Windows 7 came out, people on my dorm floor just walked around handing that shit out. Didn't even ask for it, but it was a nice gift.
Wut.
I was just admitting that if you're some guy who manages to upload Skyward Sword to the web the night it comes out, you probably know a thing or two -- whereas pirates consuming files just click away without having any idea how things actually function.
And I don't wish to vilify anyone, I'm pretty happy that pirating can exist.[/QUOTE]
Most people I know are not tech savvy enough to download movies, etc. Most people have never heard the word torrent in my experience. Most people think that it is dangerous and have not idea how to download. Especially Apple users who are pretty much prevented from anything other than point and click. iTunes really does a good job hamstringing the user and most are content within that controlled environment. Its so easy to click and buy they won't bother with go to this torrent site, then... LOST EM! Seriously, there are studies that most people will quit after 3 clicks. When computers crash or have problems people ask me for help and simple problem solving skills are missing. "How about you Google that?" Then a shrug of shoulders. I think you are overestimating the end user. Anyhow, piracy is does not provide the economic impact that these industries claim. Its just a way to offset their own crappy industry. Read the article above I posted. We shouldn't even be concerned with THEIR issue of "piracy."
panzerfaust
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Perhaps you have experience in an older age group? I'm talking the college crowd. I would guess most people start to look down on pirating (or quit using it) when they enter a steady career. These people have money and will support what they like.
[quote name='Clak']Provide a better service than the pirates, piracy goes away.[/QUOTE]
Now, from all the things in this post that caught my attention, this one wins the cake (there's no cake).
I'm curious, what service could be better than completely free, completely unlimited music, whatever artist you want, whatever genre you want, whatever era you want, whenever you want it, for as long as you want it, with no licensing agreements or restrictions of any kind to get in the way - all with virtually no downside?
Because if you could come up with a profitable service that's better than that, you need to stop wasting time here on CAG and register your business.
Now, from all the things in this post that caught my attention, this one wins the cake (there's no cake).
I'm curious, what service could be better than completely free, completely unlimited music, whatever artist you want, whatever genre you want, whatever era you want, whenever you want it, for as long as you want it, with no licensing agreements or restrictions of any kind to get in the way - all with virtually no downside?
Because if you could come up with a profitable service that's better than that, you need to stop wasting time here on CAG and register your business.
panzerfaust
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True story: New Kanye album? Time to downlo -- oh, $1.99 on amazon for the whole thing? Sure.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's how a lot other people think. Just look at Steam sales.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's how a lot other people think. Just look at Steam sales.
[quote name='kill3r7']Actually I prefer Watson but I didn't miss your point. I was just covering all my bases. The reason you can't copy most of the content out there today is because these companies lobbied to have the law changed as a response to piracy, be it real or not. Thus ing up copyright law for perpetuity. They would have never had any grounds to change the law but for our actions.[/QUOTE]
Actually the reason you can't copy most media is because they've done everything they can to prevent you from doing it by using protective software. But again, I'm calling bullshit on you "we brought it on ourselves argument". Let me put it this way, would a company rather you be forced to buy another copy of something because yours was damaged, or would they rather you be able to make a backup? Even if piracy wasn't a problem, they'd still rather you buy another copy to replace a broken one, and if piracy vanished tomorrow, you think they'd remove the copy protection preventing you from backing it up?
ing up copyright law for perpetuity. They would have never had any grounds to change the law but for our actions.[/QUOTE]Actually the reason you can't copy most media is because they've done everything they can to prevent you from doing it by using protective software. But again, I'm calling bullshit on you "we brought it on ourselves argument". Let me put it this way, would a company rather you be forced to buy another copy of something because yours was damaged, or would they rather you be able to make a backup? Even if piracy wasn't a problem, they'd still rather you buy another copy to replace a broken one, and if piracy vanished tomorrow, you think they'd remove the copy protection preventing you from backing it up?
[quote name='Clak']Actually the reason you can't copy most media is because they've done everything they can to prevent you from doing it by using protective software. But again, I'm calling bullshit on you "we brought it on ourselves argument". Let me put it this way, would a company rather you be forced to buy another copy of something because yours was damaged, or would they rather you be able to make a backup? Even if piracy wasn't a problem, they'd still rather you buy another copy to replace a broken one, and if piracy vanished tomorrow, you think they'd remove the copy protection preventing you from backing it up?[/QUOTE]
Of course they would prefer for you to buy a new copy every time your old copy was damaged, but they couldn't force you. They never had any legal grounds previously to have DRM (or any other protection) implemented. With napster we opened the door for them. After napster they lobbied hard and congress allowed them to take measures to protect their product. That's how all of this shit started. Back in the day there were no protective measures placed on audiotapes. Hence why I keep saying we brought this upon ourselves.
Of course they would prefer for you to buy a new copy every time your old copy was damaged, but they couldn't force you. They never had any legal grounds previously to have DRM (or any other protection) implemented. With napster we opened the door for them. After napster they lobbied hard and congress allowed them to take measures to protect their product. That's how all of this shit started. Back in the day there were no protective measures placed on audiotapes. Hence why I keep saying we brought this upon ourselves.
[quote name='kill3r7']With napster we opened the door for them. After napster they lobbied hard and congress allowed them to take measures to protect their product. That's how all of this shit started. Back in the day there were no protective measures placed on audiotapes. Hence why I keep saying we brought this upon ourselves.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='panzerfaust']Perhaps you have experience in an older age group? I'm talking the college crowd. I would guess most people start to look down on pirating (or quit using it) when they enter a steady career. These people have money and will support what they like.[/QUOTE]
This was kind of my point. The younger crowd is more computer savvy and can easily do all this stuff you take for granted. So that's part of the piracy spreading problem. It's so easy now with computers etc., vs. the old days where you had to make a lower quality tape, or hassle with burning a CD on a computer with only one disc drive etc.
As technology has spread, it's became super easy to make copies and illegally distribute them. And things like DRM have no impact as there are enough computer savvy people out there to strip it and upload it so even less tech savvy people can easily download illegal copies.
This was kind of my point. The younger crowd is more computer savvy and can easily do all this stuff you take for granted. So that's part of the piracy spreading problem. It's so easy now with computers etc., vs. the old days where you had to make a lower quality tape, or hassle with burning a CD on a computer with only one disc drive etc.
As technology has spread, it's became super easy to make copies and illegally distribute them. And things like DRM have no impact as there are enough computer savvy people out there to strip it and upload it so even less tech savvy people can easily download illegal copies.
The only thing we brought upon ourselves is that we let our government pass laws that favor businesses over everyone else. Nobody even knows what the hell the DMCA is (I should know, I gave a speech once...), so it was passed without any outrage. That was back before these types of internet protests really started unfortunately. Now when something like SOPA comes up, people lose their shit.
Trancendental
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[quote name='panzerfaust']Perhaps you have experience in an older age group? I'm talking the college crowd. I would guess most people start to look down on pirating (or quit using it) when they enter a steady career. These people have money and will support what they like.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe that at all.
Right or wrong, I think people feel like the music labels shit on them for a long time and payback is a bitch. The only reason old people don't pirate as much is because they typcially have a fulltime job and real responsibilities.
I don't believe that at all.
Right or wrong, I think people feel like the music labels shit on them for a long time and payback is a bitch. The only reason old people don't pirate as much is because they typcially have a fulltime job and real responsibilities.
Ch33pSh33p
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Man if Google shut down 100% it'd be the first time a lot of people resort to Yahoo/Bing.
With that said, surprised CAG doesn't have some sort of awareness banner like how most sites are doing.
With that said, surprised CAG doesn't have some sort of awareness banner like how most sites are doing.
[quote name='Clak']The only thing we brought upon ourselves is that we let our government pass laws that favor businesses over everyone else. Nobody even knows what the hell the DMCA is (I should know, I gave a speech once...), so it was passed without any outrage. That was back before these types of internet protests really started unfortunately. Now when something like SOPA comes up, people lose their shit.[/QUOTE]
This^. We finally agree on something.
This^. We finally agree on something.
[quote name='camoor']I don't believe that at all.
Right or wrong, I think people feel like the music labels shit on them for a long time and payback is a bitch. The only reason old people don't pirate as much is because they typcially have a fulltime job and real responsibilities.[/QUOTE]
I think it's a combo of things that make piracy less common among the older set.
Less tech savvy, worry about viruses etc.
Busy with work and family and not into music, movies etc. as much as when younger when they had more time for hobbies, so just no interest in pirating.
Making real money so they're able to afford all the music, movies etc. they want so no financial incentive to pirate.
I've always been against piracy and never even did in college when Napster was all the rage. I've always been an album listener so never had an interest in grabbing songs, and always felt guilty about the idea of stealing albums of my favorite bands.
But all the stuff above does factor in now. Even if I didn't have the moral guilt over piracy, I probably wouldn't bother for the reason above.
I hate dealing with viruses and spyware, so worry over that would make me hesitant to search for illegal material, and as I posted over I always struggle with the torrent programs, rar programs etc. when trying to download legal files.
And the other two combine to give me no real incentive. I don't have nearly as much hobby time as before, and make ok money, so I have no problems buying all the albums, movies (do supplement there with Netflix since that's where most my free time goes) and games that interest me enough for me to make time to consume.
Right or wrong, I think people feel like the music labels shit on them for a long time and payback is a bitch. The only reason old people don't pirate as much is because they typcially have a fulltime job and real responsibilities.[/QUOTE]
I think it's a combo of things that make piracy less common among the older set.
Less tech savvy, worry about viruses etc.
Busy with work and family and not into music, movies etc. as much as when younger when they had more time for hobbies, so just no interest in pirating.
Making real money so they're able to afford all the music, movies etc. they want so no financial incentive to pirate.
I've always been against piracy and never even did in college when Napster was all the rage. I've always been an album listener so never had an interest in grabbing songs, and always felt guilty about the idea of stealing albums of my favorite bands.
But all the stuff above does factor in now. Even if I didn't have the moral guilt over piracy, I probably wouldn't bother for the reason above.
I hate dealing with viruses and spyware, so worry over that would make me hesitant to search for illegal material, and as I posted over I always struggle with the torrent programs, rar programs etc. when trying to download legal files.
And the other two combine to give me no real incentive. I don't have nearly as much hobby time as before, and make ok money, so I have no problems buying all the albums, movies (do supplement there with Netflix since that's where most my free time goes) and games that interest me enough for me to make time to consume.
I just tried using Lamar Alexander's contact page, and apparently it's being overloaded, I can't submit my letter. This is great.[quote name='Clak']What would old people even pirate anyway? Gershwin and Paula Dean cook books?
[/QUOTE]
I'm just talking people 30 and up. Not senior citizens!
People my age (33) were in college when Napster hit, so they have experience with the technology and pirating in the past. I don't know any who still do it though as they just don't have the time to listen to a ton of music etc. anymore and have money to just buy whatever they want now (unlike when a broke college student).
That said, I'm sure lots of people in their 30s, 40s etc. still pirate stuff. Just saying I don't know any and I'm sure it's less common than in the 20s and under crowd for the reasons I posted above.
[/QUOTE]I'm just talking people 30 and up. Not senior citizens!
People my age (33) were in college when Napster hit, so they have experience with the technology and pirating in the past. I don't know any who still do it though as they just don't have the time to listen to a ton of music etc. anymore and have money to just buy whatever they want now (unlike when a broke college student).
That said, I'm sure lots of people in their 30s, 40s etc. still pirate stuff. Just saying I don't know any and I'm sure it's less common than in the 20s and under crowd for the reasons I posted above.
Illini Jeeper
CAGiversary!
I sent out emails to my Rep. and Senator Mark Kirk. Dick Durbin's site is being slammed and isn't loading. Here's the format of what I sent (feel free to copy and paste it to send to yours):
(Senator/Representative ________________):
It is of extremely urgent importance that you consistently vote "No" on all forms of the Stop Online Piracy Act and the Protect IP Act. These two bills are the most dangerous pieces of legislation to have come before Congress in years, as they threaten the very core of our First Amendment freedoms.
While I do not endorse piracy of any sort, the ability to blacklist and destroy an individual's content at will is unacceptable. Thomas Jefferson himself wrote, "The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them." The internet is the modern day interpretation of Mr. Jefferson's newspapers. Do not destroy our "marketplace of ideas."
If you vote yes for any iteration of either of these bills, I will not support you and will vote against you in the next election. Stop any and all forms of SOPA and PIPA. Don't censor the internet.
(Senator/Representative ________________):
It is of extremely urgent importance that you consistently vote "No" on all forms of the Stop Online Piracy Act and the Protect IP Act. These two bills are the most dangerous pieces of legislation to have come before Congress in years, as they threaten the very core of our First Amendment freedoms.
While I do not endorse piracy of any sort, the ability to blacklist and destroy an individual's content at will is unacceptable. Thomas Jefferson himself wrote, "The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them." The internet is the modern day interpretation of Mr. Jefferson's newspapers. Do not destroy our "marketplace of ideas."
If you vote yes for any iteration of either of these bills, I will not support you and will vote against you in the next election. Stop any and all forms of SOPA and PIPA. Don't censor the internet.
kainzero
CAGiversary!
[quote name='UncleBob']I'm curious, what service could be better than completely free, completely unlimited music, whatever artist you want, whatever genre you want, whatever era you want, whenever you want it, for as long as you want it, with no licensing agreements or restrictions of any kind to get in the way - all with virtually no downside?[/QUOTE]
There's a group called AKB48 in Japan that had five singles that hit the million sales mark last year. Before that the last single to hit one million sales was sometime in 2000-2002.
How did they do it?
-multiple versions of the single with different b-side tracks
-handshake tickets, where you can bring the ticket to a handshake event, shake your favorite member's hand and say a few words to them
-inclusion of trading cards, spawning a trading card industry as well
-inclusion of DVD with bonuses+music video for each song including the b-side
-buying from different shops have different bonuses; posters, clearfiles, etc.
You don't buy a piece of plastic with some music on it. You buy an item with multiple collectibles and all sorts of value. The fans are relatively cultish too so they really feel like they're supporting the group and their favorite member when they buy the CD.
That's how you create service that beats piracy. You innovate, you don't make legislation so that you can block innovation and continued on a tired path that people are abandoning.
There's a group called AKB48 in Japan that had five singles that hit the million sales mark last year. Before that the last single to hit one million sales was sometime in 2000-2002.
How did they do it?
-multiple versions of the single with different b-side tracks
-handshake tickets, where you can bring the ticket to a handshake event, shake your favorite member's hand and say a few words to them
-inclusion of trading cards, spawning a trading card industry as well
-inclusion of DVD with bonuses+music video for each song including the b-side
-buying from different shops have different bonuses; posters, clearfiles, etc.
You don't buy a piece of plastic with some music on it. You buy an item with multiple collectibles and all sorts of value. The fans are relatively cultish too so they really feel like they're supporting the group and their favorite member when they buy the CD.
That's how you create service that beats piracy. You innovate, you don't make legislation so that you can block innovation and continued on a tired path that people are abandoning.
A good number of people pirate things because it's the only way to get the things in the way they want. The official options for digital copies of movies sucks, and that's why I rip them myself or download a copy, because it's the only way I can watch the movie in an unrestricted way. This is for movies I own btw.
There are definitely things that can be done to encourage sales for sure.
But that doesn't mean that steps aren't need to try to cut down on the people breaking the law by illegally uploading and downloading things. It just needs to be done in a way that doesn't restrict internet freedom, strip people of their due process rights etc.
And, as I've said before, musicians have an easier time of being creative on that front that do the movie and book industry. They can make money through touring and selling merchandise. Putting out B-sides etc. helps, but those B-sides get pirated too so pirates can still get that stuff for free. But yeah some extra stuff like collectable items with albums etc. can help spur sales.
It's harder to do that with something like an e-book. Most people don't really care about meeting authors or buying merchandise related to their favorite book beyond the huge pop culture hits like Harry Potter or Twilight. The same is pretty much true of movies. Something huge like Star Wars or LOTR can sell merchandise etc., but even really popular movies like Inception don't have much of a way to make money other than getting people to buy theater tickets and DVDs/Blurays as people aren't really interested in merchandise. And DVDs/Blurays already have tons of extra features you don't get if you just pirate a rip of the film, so those aren't enough incentive to thwart piracy. Most people don't care about watching documentaries about the making of a film etc.
So, kind of ironically given all the bitching labels and some musicians have done, the music industry has the easiest time adapting to piracy due to the ability to make money from touring and merchandise that most authors and filmmakers don't have.
But that doesn't mean that steps aren't need to try to cut down on the people breaking the law by illegally uploading and downloading things. It just needs to be done in a way that doesn't restrict internet freedom, strip people of their due process rights etc.
And, as I've said before, musicians have an easier time of being creative on that front that do the movie and book industry. They can make money through touring and selling merchandise. Putting out B-sides etc. helps, but those B-sides get pirated too so pirates can still get that stuff for free. But yeah some extra stuff like collectable items with albums etc. can help spur sales.
It's harder to do that with something like an e-book. Most people don't really care about meeting authors or buying merchandise related to their favorite book beyond the huge pop culture hits like Harry Potter or Twilight. The same is pretty much true of movies. Something huge like Star Wars or LOTR can sell merchandise etc., but even really popular movies like Inception don't have much of a way to make money other than getting people to buy theater tickets and DVDs/Blurays as people aren't really interested in merchandise. And DVDs/Blurays already have tons of extra features you don't get if you just pirate a rip of the film, so those aren't enough incentive to thwart piracy. Most people don't care about watching documentaries about the making of a film etc.
So, kind of ironically given all the bitching labels and some musicians have done, the music industry has the easiest time adapting to piracy due to the ability to make money from touring and merchandise that most authors and filmmakers don't have.
[quote name='Clak']A good number of people pirate things because it's the only way to get the things in the way they want. The official options for digital copies of movies sucks, and that's why I rip them myself or download a copy, because it's the only way I can watch the movie in an unrestricted way. This is for movies I own btw.[/QUOTE]
And that's more of a gray area. As I said, I have no problem with people ripping movies they own on DVD/Bluray. I don't like that there is copy protection on movie discs and laws against breaking it. That needs to be changed and people should be able to make copies of movies they own just like we can with music CDs. Same with ebooks.
As for pirating something not available for sale in your country, that's less ok than making a copy of something you own for sure. But still a gray area. I don't have a huge issue with that, provided people are buying the content when/if it does become available in their country.
The only area that's 100% wrong is pirating something that is available for purchase in your country. That's never justifiable IMO. I'm mean it's not some huge, grave wrong tht means someone is an awful person. But it is a moral and legal wrong, and it drives me nuts when people brag about it and try to justify it through BS excuses.
And that's more of a gray area. As I said, I have no problem with people ripping movies they own on DVD/Bluray. I don't like that there is copy protection on movie discs and laws against breaking it. That needs to be changed and people should be able to make copies of movies they own just like we can with music CDs. Same with ebooks.
As for pirating something not available for sale in your country, that's less ok than making a copy of something you own for sure. But still a gray area. I don't have a huge issue with that, provided people are buying the content when/if it does become available in their country.
The only area that's 100% wrong is pirating something that is available for purchase in your country. That's never justifiable IMO. I'm mean it's not some huge, grave wrong tht means someone is an awful person. But it is a moral and legal wrong, and it drives me nuts when people brag about it and try to justify it through BS excuses.
panzerfaust
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You can't just look at every reasonable person that says "I pirate because..." and plug your ears and start singing "doesn't make it right, not justified, no no no!" every time. It's not about justification, it's about understanding what's going on with the other side. People who rally around the criminal argument are the ones doing things like SOPA and PIPA, loading things with DRM, etc... It's people who look at the amount of illegal downloads for their product and somehow make a correlation to millions in lost profit.
I know you're not for those methods dmaul, but in a world with a free internet, piracy will always be a natural offshoot, so what can possibly be proposed that wouldn't piss a ton of people off? And can you really walk up to someone at the gym and say "shame on you!" for having downloaded his playlist off the internet? Is banning this behavior really going to solve the problems of their respective industries? Is it going to help even a little? Could it even possibly hurt an industry?
It's not even a moral issue at this point, that's probably the least important aspect. The question is why does it occur? And that's something to be open minded towards, especially if someone speaks from the perspective of the pirating culture.
I know you're not for those methods dmaul, but in a world with a free internet, piracy will always be a natural offshoot, so what can possibly be proposed that wouldn't piss a ton of people off? And can you really walk up to someone at the gym and say "shame on you!" for having downloaded his playlist off the internet? Is banning this behavior really going to solve the problems of their respective industries? Is it going to help even a little? Could it even possibly hurt an industry?
It's not even a moral issue at this point, that's probably the least important aspect. The question is why does it occur? And that's something to be open minded towards, especially if someone speaks from the perspective of the pirating culture.
kainzero
CAGiversary!
[quote name='dmaul1114']It's harder to do that with something like an e-book. Most people don't really care about meeting authors or buying merchandise related to their favorite book beyond the huge pop culture hits like Harry Potter or Twilight. The same is pretty much true of movies. Something huge like Star Wars or LOTR can sell merchandise etc., but even really popular movies like Inception don't have much of a way to make money other than getting people to buy theater tickets and DVDs/Blurays as people aren't really interested in merchandise.
The only area that's 100% wrong is pirating something that is available for purchase in your country. That's never justifiable IMO. I'm mean it's not some huge, grave wrong tht means someone is an awful person. But it is a moral and legal wrong, and it drives me nuts when people brag about it and try to justify it through BS excuses.[/QUOTE]
The only e-book piracy I can see becoming huge is textbooks, which is another problem by itself.
I believe that the spread and contribution of an idea is more valuable than not purchasing it at all. And the people who don't purchase it can create a hype wave that makes other people purchase it and support the idea.
I pirated a lot of stuff when I was in high school/college. Now, stuff I would pirate before, I buy nowadays. I pour in support because I want to see them keep doing this stuff. I vote with my dollar, sometimes when other people can't. I'm okay with that. In the end, I really believe that when people want something, they will find ways to support it and keep it going.
This, to me, is okay. We're forcing people to innovate by trying to sell us things in other ways. The old model is broken and people need to think of a new model instead of trying to protect the old broken one. If anything, searching for these new models is what will bring us to the future and spur growth and the economy.
(And I still feel the need to point at the enormous salary discrepancy between a film studio chief and the guy who runs the lights on movies. Guess who they base the anti-piracy commercials on?)
The only area that's 100% wrong is pirating something that is available for purchase in your country. That's never justifiable IMO. I'm mean it's not some huge, grave wrong tht means someone is an awful person. But it is a moral and legal wrong, and it drives me nuts when people brag about it and try to justify it through BS excuses.[/QUOTE]
The only e-book piracy I can see becoming huge is textbooks, which is another problem by itself.
I believe that the spread and contribution of an idea is more valuable than not purchasing it at all. And the people who don't purchase it can create a hype wave that makes other people purchase it and support the idea.
I pirated a lot of stuff when I was in high school/college. Now, stuff I would pirate before, I buy nowadays. I pour in support because I want to see them keep doing this stuff. I vote with my dollar, sometimes when other people can't. I'm okay with that. In the end, I really believe that when people want something, they will find ways to support it and keep it going.
This, to me, is okay. We're forcing people to innovate by trying to sell us things in other ways. The old model is broken and people need to think of a new model instead of trying to protect the old broken one. If anything, searching for these new models is what will bring us to the future and spur growth and the economy.
(And I still feel the need to point at the enormous salary discrepancy between a film studio chief and the guy who runs the lights on movies. Guess who they base the anti-piracy commercials on?)
[quote name='panzerfaust']You can't just look at every reasonable person that says "I pirate because..." and plug your ears and start singing "doesn't make it right, not justified, no no no!" every time. It's not about justification, it's about understanding what's going on with the other side. People who rally around the criminal argument are the ones doing things like SOPA and PIPA, loading things with DRM, etc... It's people who look at the amount of illegal downloads for their product and somehow make a correlation to millions in lost profit.
I know you're not for those methods dmaul, but in a world with a free internet, piracy will always be a natural offshoot, so what can possibly be proposed that wouldn't piss a ton of people off? And can you really walk up to someone at the gym and say "shame on you!" for having downloaded his playlist off the internet? Is banning this behavior really going to solve the problems of their respective industries? Is it going to help even a little? Could it even possibly hurt an industry?
It's not even a moral issue at this point, that's probably the least important aspect. The question is why does it occur? And that's something to be open minded towards, especially if someone speaks from the perspective of the pirating culture.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, it's just not something I'm open minded about at all. It's wrong. Yes it's going to happen--just like all crimes do. But that doesn't change that it's wrong. And it's 100% a moral issue. People who pirate stuff available for purchase in their region have clear moral failings.
My idea on how to try to address the issue is the same as I've posted before. Make piracy a criminal rather than civil matter. Make it a minor misdemeanor punishable with fines that are the MSRP of the material pirated plus 25% or whatever, plus court costs.
Still will be hard to enforce. People will still do it in large numbers. But maybe being a misdemeanor crime that goes on your criminal record will help change the wide spread belief that there's nothing wrong with pirating things and help stigmatize it as the form of theft that it is. One of the big functions of the legal system is to delineate what types of behaviors are views as "wrong" in society.
At the same time, such a system would get away from absurdly disproportionate punishments that are coming from civil courts currently. So it's not just something beneficial to copyright holders, it's also more lenient on those who break the law and get caught, while hopefully at the same time helping shift moral beliefs of the wrongness of the act.
And yes, none of that changes the fact that the industries need to keep innovating and coming up with ways to at least encourage real fans to spend money on their material. But at the same time, society and the government needs to do more to try to at least reduce piracy somewhat and protect people's intellectual property rights.
It's going to take a very multi-facted approach to find the right balance between protecting creators intellectual property rights and balancing the rights of consumers who legitimately purchase content while continuing to promote innovation.
[quote name='kainzero']The only e-book piracy I can see becoming huge is textbooks, which is another problem by itself.
[/QUOTE]
Just not true. It's already very easy to find pirated copies of any popular e-book. And that will continue to grow as e-books continue to surge in popularity. Read an article the other day that they're already up to 20% of the fiction market, up from like 8% a year or two ago.
I know you're not for those methods dmaul, but in a world with a free internet, piracy will always be a natural offshoot, so what can possibly be proposed that wouldn't piss a ton of people off? And can you really walk up to someone at the gym and say "shame on you!" for having downloaded his playlist off the internet? Is banning this behavior really going to solve the problems of their respective industries? Is it going to help even a little? Could it even possibly hurt an industry?
It's not even a moral issue at this point, that's probably the least important aspect. The question is why does it occur? And that's something to be open minded towards, especially if someone speaks from the perspective of the pirating culture.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, it's just not something I'm open minded about at all. It's wrong. Yes it's going to happen--just like all crimes do. But that doesn't change that it's wrong. And it's 100% a moral issue. People who pirate stuff available for purchase in their region have clear moral failings.
My idea on how to try to address the issue is the same as I've posted before. Make piracy a criminal rather than civil matter. Make it a minor misdemeanor punishable with fines that are the MSRP of the material pirated plus 25% or whatever, plus court costs.
Still will be hard to enforce. People will still do it in large numbers. But maybe being a misdemeanor crime that goes on your criminal record will help change the wide spread belief that there's nothing wrong with pirating things and help stigmatize it as the form of theft that it is. One of the big functions of the legal system is to delineate what types of behaviors are views as "wrong" in society.
At the same time, such a system would get away from absurdly disproportionate punishments that are coming from civil courts currently. So it's not just something beneficial to copyright holders, it's also more lenient on those who break the law and get caught, while hopefully at the same time helping shift moral beliefs of the wrongness of the act.
And yes, none of that changes the fact that the industries need to keep innovating and coming up with ways to at least encourage real fans to spend money on their material. But at the same time, society and the government needs to do more to try to at least reduce piracy somewhat and protect people's intellectual property rights.
It's going to take a very multi-facted approach to find the right balance between protecting creators intellectual property rights and balancing the rights of consumers who legitimately purchase content while continuing to promote innovation.
[quote name='kainzero']The only e-book piracy I can see becoming huge is textbooks, which is another problem by itself.
[/QUOTE]
Just not true. It's already very easy to find pirated copies of any popular e-book. And that will continue to grow as e-books continue to surge in popularity. Read an article the other day that they're already up to 20% of the fiction market, up from like 8% a year or two ago.
panzerfaust
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Once again, you aren't open minded to the moral argument which I'm asking you to put aside, you're just concerned on enacting punishment on people doing something "wrong," even though no such punishment can exist in a practical form, and would be targeting a culture that has little effect on company profits. I think you're out of touch if you really believe some kid with a downloaded playlist should be ashamed of himself. He's a thief, it's wrong, but it's much more than that.
And a misdemeanor for every case of piracy? Do you know how many resources you would be asking for? I don't even think that's humanly possible. And considering we can already track pirates easily, it's obvious why no one acts up on it -- not worth it, and unpredictable ramifications.
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Crazy analogy attempt -- abortion. Right or wrong? Probably wrong. Ban it tomorrow? Uhhh, I don't think so. Morals aren't relevant there, people should be concerned on why it happens. You can save a lot more babies by taking steps other than restricting the act of abortion itself.
And a misdemeanor for every case of piracy? Do you know how many resources you would be asking for? I don't even think that's humanly possible. And considering we can already track pirates easily, it's obvious why no one acts up on it -- not worth it, and unpredictable ramifications.
--
Crazy analogy attempt -- abortion. Right or wrong? Probably wrong. Ban it tomorrow? Uhhh, I don't think so. Morals aren't relevant there, people should be concerned on why it happens. You can save a lot more babies by taking steps other than restricting the act of abortion itself.
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Someone with a downloaded playlist absolutely should feel guilty about it. They have a copy of music they enjoy and they didn't compensate the artist for it. The whole problem with this segment of society is they have no guilt over stealing things they enjoy. That's what needs to change. Will it? Probably not. Society sucks, and younger generations are just pretty much ing worthless.
As for enforcement, there would never be any way to catch and punish every act of piracy. But that's true of any crime. Even serious crimes like burglary and robbery have clearance rates of 10-20% most places. Minor crimes like shoplifting have much lower detection and arrest rates.
The point isn't to catch everyone. It's to have it labeled a crime to help stigmatize the act, and to at least have the threat of capture and punishment there to deter at least some people from doing it.
Resource wise, I don't think it's a huge problem. Enforcement would probably just focus on big uploaders to go after the supply side. The media industry should be tasked with most of the investigation stuff. Just like a store has to monitor for shoplifting and gather evidence to turn over to the police, they could pay for people to identify big uploaders, and turn information over to law enforcement to investigate and issue citations where applicable. Ideally the money from the fines would cover the extra law enforcement personnel needed.
ing worthless.As for enforcement, there would never be any way to catch and punish every act of piracy. But that's true of any crime. Even serious crimes like burglary and robbery have clearance rates of 10-20% most places. Minor crimes like shoplifting have much lower detection and arrest rates.
The point isn't to catch everyone. It's to have it labeled a crime to help stigmatize the act, and to at least have the threat of capture and punishment there to deter at least some people from doing it.
Resource wise, I don't think it's a huge problem. Enforcement would probably just focus on big uploaders to go after the supply side. The media industry should be tasked with most of the investigation stuff. Just like a store has to monitor for shoplifting and gather evidence to turn over to the police, they could pay for people to identify big uploaders, and turn information over to law enforcement to investigate and issue citations where applicable. Ideally the money from the fines would cover the extra law enforcement personnel needed.
panzerfaust
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I'm sorry you feel that way, a lot of bright and motivated people make up this generation, and some of them happen to download things they wouldn't otherwise buy. Not an excuse, stop saying it is, I'm just telling you how people work.
They've been trying this for the past decade. Doesn't work. Well, it scares the shit out of older people who have kids -- that I'm sure of. Anyone younger knows it's just for show, knows they won't get caught unless they're stupid. Making a bunch of smaller cases would only make it more expensive to pursue, and less intimidating to other pirates. If it was a practical way to enforce the law then it would of been done years ago, because they really do love their fines. You say it would cover the expenses or even be profitable, if this were true then they would be doing it. Look at marijuana.
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Just not true. It's already very easy to find pirated copies of any popular e-book. And that will continue to grow as e-books continue to surge in popularity. Read an article the other day that they're already up to 20% of the fiction market, up from like 8% a year or two ago.[/QUOTE]
it might be easy but i hardly ever hear people talk about pirating books.
as books are becoming an ancient form of entertainment the only people left are people who need to support it lest it become extinct.
it might be easy but i hardly ever hear people talk about pirating books.
as books are becoming an ancient form of entertainment the only people left are people who need to support it lest it become extinct.
panzerfaust
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No, but some people do think money should be spent hiring and training a new branch of law enforcement to constantly monitor the internet and hand out tickets to kids downloading Game of Thrones.
[quote name='kainzero']it might be easy but i hardly ever hear people talk about pirating books.
as books are becoming an ancient form of entertainment the only people left are people who need to support it lest it become extinct.[/QUOTE]
Just depends on who you're associating with.
It's a pretty frequent topic on e-book dedicated forums for instance.
Sure, the volume will never be that of piracy of music and movie as people today are regressing intellectually and most don't have the attention span for books....and you're going to see more of that on a site like this that's dedicated to something like video games. The book threads on here are pretty dead. But there are very active book forums out there, and piracy is a recurrent and hot topic on there. Especially with things like DRM, agency pricing etc. being a hassle for legitimate purchasers of e-books.
In any case, piracy is still a major issue for authors trying to make a living. The market for books is possibly shrinking, or at least not growing like other media, thus sales lost to piracy may be an even bigger threat to their livelihood as it further shrinks and already diminishing market. And they don't have the luxury of concerts to make money etc. So authors are really in a tough spot currently.
as books are becoming an ancient form of entertainment the only people left are people who need to support it lest it become extinct.[/QUOTE]
Just depends on who you're associating with.
It's a pretty frequent topic on e-book dedicated forums for instance.
Sure, the volume will never be that of piracy of music and movie as people today are regressing intellectually and most don't have the attention span for books....and you're going to see more of that on a site like this that's dedicated to something like video games. The book threads on here are pretty dead. But there are very active book forums out there, and piracy is a recurrent and hot topic on there. Especially with things like DRM, agency pricing etc. being a hassle for legitimate purchasers of e-books.
In any case, piracy is still a major issue for authors trying to make a living. The market for books is possibly shrinking, or at least not growing like other media, thus sales lost to piracy may be an even bigger threat to their livelihood as it further shrinks and already diminishing market. And they don't have the luxury of concerts to make money etc. So authors are really in a tough spot currently.
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panzerfaust
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bread's done