Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void

Apologize for playing a race with four detectors, HotShot.

EDIT: "Let's ignore for the time being that banshees are imbalanced fucking bullshit..." - Day[9]

The reason I was ranting on Bnet was because I've been trying to incorporate DTs into my pvt - they drop marines and SCVs in one hit, they force people to waste energy on scans or minerals on turrets, etc. But... then terrans have four different fucking detectors. And even if they don't do that, their invisible guys fucking fly, and what the shit do my little sword guys do against that?

And a dark shrine still takes longer to make than a nexus.
 
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That's why I rarely do DT against terran. If you do it fast enough it may work, but it's so easy to get detected.
 
DT are good target practice for terran and zerg units.

I sincerely don't understand the purpose of splitting the DTs and HTs into different buildings. Would it really make the protoss all that overpowered if they could make both with one building? I don't think it would.
 
A DT is nowhere near a battlecruiser or collosus in terms of power, which are the other units that have a building for just one unit and the dark shrine offers no upgrades - it just exists for no reason.

I get that cloaking is powerful and DTs don't need to research it, but a DT still takes a lot longer to build than any race's form of detection.

While I'm complaining, There needs to be more units than the thor that deal AOE AA damage. Also, cancer is bad.
 
Well, there are a decent pile of units that have buildings just for them - greater spire for brood lords, archives for HT, academy for ghosts, ultralisk cavern for ultras...

But all of those things are way better than DTs.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Well, there are a decent pile of units that have buildings just for them - greater spire for brood lords, archives for HT, academy for ghosts, ultralisk cavern for ultras...

But all of those things are way better than DTs.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected. It's been a month and change since I've gotten any SC2 in, so I didn't really think that through before I posted it.

But Yeah... Of all the units with the high tech requirements, DTs have the least overall utility.
 
And cloaking is pretty shitty unless your opponent just has no detection built.

edit- Little debate here: Protoss, they wear pants or no?
 
And the same build time as a nexus for the shrine (100 seconds).

Twice as long as an archives. 35 seconds longer than the robotics bay, fusion core, and ultra cavern. A full minute longer than the 40 second ghost academy (which provides a mobile detector unit in itself). The only "big tech structure" that is equal to it is the greater spire.

You can get a robo bay with the robotics facility up 15 seconds before a dark shrine is in, albeit at a bit more mineral and gas cost.
 
Protoss without pants are OP because they give protoss more mobility and require less resources, they should add them back on.

As for DTs...
I lost to a DT rush last week, but it's purely my fault. I just don't have all the preventative measures down quite yet.

In BW, I only see DTs when they try an all-in in PvT, or if someone tries Sair-DT in PvZ. And in the PvZ matchup, Sair-DT is only used to harass and gain a small edge so that the Protoss can exploit it later. They go Stargate then Templar Archives.

SC2 PvT I can see some utility in certain situations, but I just don't think they're a good unit to mass or even scatter in your army anyway. I don't know any other Protoss matchups other than that.
 
SC2-wise, I've been trying to use them to do a bit of harass and gain a lot of map control against terrans, but it just encourages the use of ravens and especially ghosts, which scare the shit out of me to begin with.

They're mostly useless against protoss, as we generally either just run basic gateway units into each-other until the other person dies (in which case, going for DTs will put you slightly behind another gateway-using protoss) or we go for mass colossus fights, in which case, hey, obs are already out.

In theory, DTs could work against zerg in a style similar to Bisu's corsair-DT from Brood War, but in all of the games in which I have gone for early phoenixes against zerg - which is pretty much all of them - they just spore their asses up, anyway. Yes, the DTs could pin back their army, but you know what else could? A bunch of fucking colossii or HTs.

DTs seem to exist to let you harass and keep the enemy away until you get your big, tough AoE units operational, but they take pretty much as long to make as those big, tough units, anyway.
 
Protoss I think have an easier time with detecting, at least in bases. Cannons are quick and cheap to produce and can attack ground or air. Suck throwing up AA missiles to detect ground units.
 
If DT and HT came from the same building, I would honestly think they're powered about right. With the unique building for the single unit, they're a terrible investment.
 
Yar. Then DTs would provide you with a way to delay your opponent while waiting for the research to make HTs useful.

EDIT: Also, the next Funday Monday challenge is to do a full-out attack every five minutes with a battle cry. Anyone wanna help me practice a good build for it?
 
Bah.

I just got burned by the forced use of battle.net... I'm at work doing the yearly DR test, which requires me to do 5 minutes of work at the very beginning, then wait around for 4+ hours for people to their parts based on my first 5 minutes. Fun stuff. I figured I'd be clever and play some SC2 offline while I waited for kicks.

Apparently, i neglected to log into SC2 on this laptop while I was ON a network, and I can't connect to it from the company wireless, so I can't actually play it even though I own the game and I get to stand around for the next 3 hours SC2-less.
 
Not to sound like an insensitive jerk, but all zerg look alike. Zerg teammate + Zerg enemy = Uhhh...which is which?
 
[quote name='Clak']Not to sound like an insensitive jerk, but all zerg look alike. Zerg teammate + Zerg enemy = Uhhh...which is which?[/QUOTE]
This reminds me of the time my friend and I were playing.
We were Terran Protoss, opponent was dual Protoss.

We decided to rush one guy, so we sent our armies up to their base. My friend build a pylon to warp units in.

Well, it scared the crap out of me because I expected the opponent's ally to save him... so I started focus firing my friend's stalkers. -_-;

Later in the game he was retreating his Colossi and I got scared and I killed one of them. -_-;
 
[quote name='Oktoberfest']alt+f for the win![/QUOTE]
The problem with that is if you play a team game against a team with 2 of the same kind, it makes it hard to keep track of an individual player's economy/army.

And it makes it harder to call out who to attack. =)
 
So I'm starting to enjoy PvT a bit more now.

It's just PvP I'm confused as tits about. What the fuck do I do? Heavy early pressure > 4gate > tech builds > heavy early pressure. fuckin' rock paper scissors.

EDIT:
UgXOV.gif
 
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It seems like a lot of tournaments are ending up with the finals being TvT. I must admit, the games do look pretty fun as TvT, but I would love to see PvP and ZvZ a bit more.

I've recently gotten back into SC2 just from watching some games and tournaments, but I'm still pretty bad online (at least I think I am). It'd be great to play some matches with you guys!

Also, Crotch, nice .gif
 
Yeah, I can handle Pv anything but other Protoss. It seems like fighting another protoss is like running up against a brick wall. Many times my first fight ends up being zealot vs zealot, which is just ridiculously bad. It just seems like every time I attack I get countered with an equal force, it's a basically a tie every skirmish. The only thing that seems to tip the scales is upgrades and whether or not each player is keeping up with them.
 
Blech. Lost a PvT 'cause of a super-late twilight council. I know I could have beaten his army, but my ten million stalkers were stuck moving down an itty-bitty ramp when he showed up instead of just blinking beside his tanks.

Blech!
 
Maybe I need to learn to sue blink better, some of the videos I've seen are crazy, but I don't have that level of control. I usually use it to just blink up a cliff and surprise an enemy.
 
Just played around 5 matches with friends, was a pretty good way to get back into the game. I play Zerg, but not really using any official build, kind of trying to refine my own build at the moment. A little nervous to play 1v1's since my placement matches back in August got me to gold, but it's been awhile since I've actually played...
 
Do eeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

EDIT: So I had a lot of ladder losses today. Just in this last game have I figured out why: I haven't been hearing the "We cannot hold!" and what-not that usually accompanies your guys fighting off-screen. I don't know what part of the sound menu changes that - there's no obvious option like "voices" - so I've just bumped everything way the fuck up. The main menu is pretty loud, but it works out in game.

At least I managed to win that game where ten stalkers and an immortal died and I didn't even notice until I had regrouped my whole army. Suck it, guy with an inferior number of colossii!
 
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lol Im such a scrub at this game =P

played sum 2v2 with Sukokokoko, we got pwned to the moon,

I jus got done with some 1v1, I won my match but Im feeling all nervous and shakey... even still ^_^;;

this game is stress lol

EDIT: man I wanna play another match but Im still all tense lol.

experience will come with time ^_^v
 
It's kind of messed up how the colossus can be hit by air units, but not shoot back. It's like the protoss haven't figured out how to shoot upward.
 
This game is very stressful and usually people are stressed and scared of their opponent especially in 1v1's, so the key is to be relaxed and calm. Just think of another loss as another way to get better.
 
[quote name='Droenixjpn']This game is very stressful and usually people are stressed and scared of their opponent especially in 1v1's, so the key is to be relaxed and calm. Just think of another loss as another way to get better.[/QUOTE]
What stresses me out is that there's so much crap that can go wrong, and I hate losing because "Oh I forgot to scout" or "Oh I forgot the timing for DTs" or something like that. Or how you can spend 18 minutes playing a decent game, but then your army gets caught in a bad position and gets wiped out and you lose the game.
When a careless mistake can wipe out the last several minutes of your life, yeah, it's stressful. -_-;

[quote name='JEKKI']lol Im such a scrub at this game =P

played sum 2v2 with Sukokokoko, we got pwned to the moon,

I jus got done with some 1v1, I won my match but Im feeling all nervous and shakey... even still ^_^;;

this game is stress lol

EDIT: man I wanna play another match but Im still all tense lol.

experience will come with time ^_^v[/QUOTE]
Let's go to a lan cafe and play! I'll teach you.
 
[quote name='Clak']It's kind of messed up how the colossus can be hit by air units, but not shoot back. It's like the protoss haven't figured out how to shoot upward.[/QUOTE]
We still use swords.

Damn straight we have trouble shooting up. fuck the colossus; poor immortal. He actually lost the ability to shoot up some time in the last few years.
 
[quote name='Clak']It's kind of messed up how the colossus can be hit by air units, but not shoot back. It's like the protoss haven't figured out how to shoot upward.[/QUOTE]

That's the only way to make them balanced o_O.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']We still use swords.

Damn straight we have trouble shooting up. fuck the colossus; poor immortal. He actually lost the ability to shoot up some time in the last few years.[/QUOTE]
That would have kicked ass.
 
[quote name='kainzero']Let's go to a lan cafe and play! I'll teach you.[/QUOTE]yeay go to Dreamlab!

they got these GT5 setups there with the wheel and the chair and the flat HDTV and it's so sick!!!

might as wel go too since Ima RMA my ram and have no computer for like a few weeks unable to play the game -_-
 
Thoughts on team games (because I've been playing random 3s so much lately):

1- People tend to leave too early and react poorly once a person is rushed.

In a 3v3, once someone is attacked, they usually call for help right away while trying to push them out.

There's an art to helping someone. If you help too early, your army will get wiped out by three, especially if they decide to stream in reinforcements. Also, the defender usually makes the mistake of trying to engage in a lost battle before asking for help. That's not the right response... if you can't win at the moment, you need to rally troops to the back of your base and try to delay them hitting the army for as long as possible. That way you can attack with as many as troops as you can once it becomes desperate and inflict as much damage as possible. If possible, attempt to delay them until your teammates come; naturally, they'll be surrounded and will die.

Let's say that one of your partners gets completely taken out... you actually have an advantage, but if you press too early you'll lose it. Don't rush out right away and counter with a conventional attack; either systematically take out their remaining army after your partner died, or wait about 2 minutes and claim your small tech advantage and/or superior army size. When you attack right away, you won't do enough damage to take them out because your tech or size advantage hasn't manifested yet, and their backup troops are usually enough to prevent you from doing significant damage.

The exception is if your tech advantage is a harass they can't counter (DTs/Mutas are usually the main ones, drops might work too), in that case, you want to press them immediately with it.

Bottom Line: Don't attack if you know you can't win, and unless you have uncounterable stuff, wait a few minutes before you counter.

2: The bigger the team game, the less important harassing their economy is.

Harassing is more effective if they have multiple expansions, because you want to catch their army out of position. This rarely happens in team games, because 1-base play is the norm. In addition, denting one person's economy by a few workers doesn't have the same effect. In 1v1, you take out 6 workers, you're up 6 workers. In 3v3, you take out 6 workers, that still means that you're tied with the other 2 economies on the other team. Unless you do some insane play like double dropping the same guy with blue flame hellions (and challenging his ability to multitask), tiny damage doesn't add up in big team games.

There are exceptions of course... like if they're obviously not prepared. If you can read your opponent and you know he can't defend mutas / DTs / small drops, then go right ahead... but generally the amount of money you put into your harassment costs more than the damage done in a big team game.

Bottom Line: Small harass isn't as effective as it is in 1v1, and it grows with more people. Harass needs to be devastating in order for it to be effective (either 10+ workers or destruction of Nexus/Hatch/CC).

3: If there isn't an early rush, the most important battles come with every expansion.

The expansion is the most important timing in a team game. While I said that harass isn't important, what IS important is completely wiping out expansions, which can be done easily. One person can send their army there and clean it up, maybe a drop or something. And once you displace their army while that player helps himself, you can ambush their reinforcements with the other players. Having the ability to hit and run is important, because if you can't take out their base, you want to at least move the opponent's army around to see what they have or to catch them out of position.

With that said, prepare accordingly. If you can take an expansion and are successful in defending it, it's a won game. Don't let your teammates lose their expansions carelessly and work tirelessly to deny them theirs. Depending on the map, the key battle might be the one for the first expansion or the second one.

Also, don't ignore the second expansion. A lot of people aren't aggressive with expanding and it usually costs people in the game. It's also easier to hold expansions earlier in the game... towards the end when everyone's desperate for resources it becomes a fierce battle for the few remaining expansions, but by expanding relatively quickly and ahead of typical expansion timing, it's easier to hold it.

Bottom Line: Games are usually decided by battles for expansions. Therefore, always try to take and defend them, and deny them when you can. The smaller the force you use to take out an expansion, the better.
 
[quote name='kainzero'][T]he defender usually makes the mistake of trying to engage in a lost battle before asking for help. That's not the right response... if you can't win at the moment, you need to rally troops to the back of your base and try to delay them hitting the army for as long as possible.[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. You generally want to pull back against ranged units, but staying at your ramp against melee units can be better than running, especially if you have a sentry.

Though most team-based maps have enormous fucking ramps, so your ability to hold a choke is somewhat compromised and much depends much more on building placement than it normally would.

Also, I'm REALLY fuckING COLD RIGHT NOW.

Warming mah toes on my laptop's power brick.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Yes and no. You generally want to pull back against ranged units, but staying at your ramp against melee units can be better than running, especially if you have a sentry.

Though most team-based maps have enormous fucking ramps, so your ability to hold a choke is somewhat compromised and much depends much more on building placement than it normally would.

Also, I'm REALLY fuckING COLD RIGHT NOW.

Warming mah toes on my laptop's power brick.[/QUOTE]

How cold is it there??!

It's 54 degrees where I'm at :)
 
These last few days have been warmer. It's only 14 fahrenheit right now, which ain't so bad. The clouds are really helping.

Heat's just starting to come back on.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Yes and no. You generally want to pull back against ranged units, but staying at your ramp against melee units can be better than running, especially if you have a sentry.[/QUOTE]
Well, if you can stay at your ramp safely, it's not a lost battle then. =)
 
Eh. 1000 zerglings against ten zealots is still a losing battle, but it's one I'd much rather do at my ramp than anywhere else.

My point is, retreating can keep your units alive until allies arrive, but it can also mean a total loss of production and giving your numerically superior opponents the choice of where to fight - deeper in your base, where they can get a better surround on you, or using your own choke against your allies if/when they come to help you.

EDIT: I've been playing horribly lately. I think Bnet is taking pity on me now. After a series of losses, I got a guy who went 6pool (took out zero probes and zero structures) and then tried to tech straight to brood lords. I destroyed his main as his greater spire was half-done, and he had six corruptors floating uselessly in the sky.
 
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[quote name='The Crotch']Eh. 1000 zerglings against ten zealots is still a losing battle, but it's one I'd much rather do at my ramp than anywhere else.

My point is, retreating can keep your units alive until allies arrive, but it can also mean a total loss of production and giving your numerically superior opponents the choice of where to fight - deeper in your base, where they can get a better surround on you, or using your own choke against your allies if/when they come to help you.

EDIT: I've been playing horribly lately. I think Bnet is taking pity on me now. After a series of losses, I got a guy who went 6pool (took out zero probes and zero structures) and then tried to tech straight to brood lords. I destroyed his main as his greater spire was half-done, and he had six corruptors floating uselessly in the sky.[/QUOTE]
Either way, the point is to use the best stall tactic available. Retreating might be it, it might not be, it depends on your base layout. All the bnet pub noobs get mad at me when I don't wall in, even though my base is tightly packed with no way to get surrounded.
 
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