Struggling to Get By On 250K

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The rhetoric in Washington about taxes is about millionaires and the super rich, but the relevant dividing line between millionaires and the middle class is pegged at family income of $250,000. (I’m not a math professor, but last time I checked $250,000 is less than $1 million.) That makes me super rich and subject to a big tax hike if the president has his way.
I’m the president’s neighbor in Chicago, but we’ve never met. I wish we could, because I would introduce him to my family and our lifestyle, one he believes is capable of financing the vast expansion of government he is planning. A quick look at our family budget, which I will happily share with the White House, will show him that like many Americans, we are just getting by despite seeming to be rich. We aren’t.
...
Like most working Americans, insurance, doctors’ bills, utilities, two cars, daycare, groceries, gasoline, cell phones, and cable TV (no movie channels) round out our monthly expenses. We also have someone who cuts our grass, cleans our house, and watches our new baby so we can both work outside the home. At the end of all this, we have less than a few hundred dollars per month of discretionary income. We occasionally eat out but with a baby sitter, these nights take a toll on our budget. Life in America is wonderful, but expensive.

Link

Alot of good stuff it the article.

I feel bad for the guy. As he says, if his tax breaks get repealed, who is going to pay for his luxury house, mow his lawn, clean his house, or watch after his new baby? Just think about what his life would be like without tax breaks - a classic Greek tragedy.

The guy has already cut back - he doesn't order movie channels with his cable TV how much more do you want Obama? How much more do you want????
 
While I will agree that $250k is NOT rich, I will have to say that this guy definitely isn't living as poor as he says he is. Try living with a house and 2 kids, with another at college, on only $60k. Because that's what my dad is going through, and I wouldn't even consider him to be 'JUST getting by'.
 
[quote name='camoor']I feel bad for the guy. As he says, if his tax breaks get repealed, who is going to pay for his luxury house, mow his lawn, clean his house, or watch after his new baby? Just think about what his life would be like without tax breaks - a classic Greek tragedy.

The guy has already cut back - he doesn't order movie channels with his cable TV how much more do you want Obama? How much more do you want????[/QUOTE]

But how do you expect him to trickle down money to all of the poor people if THE GOVERNMENT is taking all of it?!?

Won't anybody think about the poor (legal) Mexican immigrant mowing his yard or the (legal) immigrant from Poland that cleans his house???

- edit This article is interesting to read. http://www.samefacts.com/2010/09/economics/the-whining-of-the-rich/

And this one http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/20/opinion/20krugman.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=general
 
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Mixed feelings on this one. Of course $250k salary is a lot, but your lose a fair bit in taxes. You also don't reap the benefits of any social services your taxes go to support. Your kids aren't getting grants to universities, you're paying hundreds of dollars a month for poor health care. You choose to pay your debts, including mortgages. It also depends on where you live. $250k pre-tax doesn't go as far in large cities, as it does in the suburbs.

I'm not saying they're spending months eating Ramen and drinking Kool-Aid. I've been there, that's real poverty, but singling one group out as exempt from tax cuts doesn't seem right to me.
 
Our combined income exceeds the $250,000 threshold for the super rich (but not by that much), and the president plans on raising my taxes.

If their income is just barely above the $250k mark, how much more in taxes are they really going to be paying? It's my understanding from posts here that only income past the $250k earned in a year would be subject to taxes in that bracket. I mean, yeah, it still means less money than they're earning now, but is it really going to be so much that it'd require firing their help, canceling cell phones, canceling "some cable channels" (guess they'll still be able to afford Bravo and Lifetime...), pulling their child out of art class, selling their cars, and selling their house?

Regardless, I can't see this guy getting too much sympathy from average Americans, at least not with the way that article is written. I'm sure there are tons of families who would love to be able to hire someone to clean their house or mow their lawn. Considering the way he talks, he makes it sound like it'd be impossible to live on anything less than what he has now. According to his page on the University of Chicago website, he graduated in 1998, so how did he make it before the Bush tax cuts?
 
It's silly, but it just shows the notion of relative deprivation.

People get used to a certain standard of living, luxuries start to seem like necessities etc. etc. Many people who are well off for a while lose perspective and their priorities get mixed up.

I do ok for myself, but no where near that income, and I could take a tax increase % wise of what someone making just over $250K would get without any hardships. Just a matter of living under your means, instead of at your means.
 
I've only read the bit of the article in the OP, but the dude seems to be missing that point that he lives a lifestyle that the majority of people in the world can only dream of. His big issue seems to be not having a huge amount of disposable income at the end of each month, he's not exactly struggling to make ends meet on his 250k.
 
I just actually read the whole article in the OP and the guy is a fucking moron as expected. Reasons why:

-He bitches about not being able to afford a CPA on $250k of income and claiming that his taxes are high because of this. Bullshit. CPAs do not cost that much money, especially compared to his income and the fact that he claims he pays over $100k in taxes. With his income and the amount of taxes he currently pays I'm sure a CPA could save their dumb asses more than the fee.

-$250,000 in med school loans. Give me a farking break. Do I need to say anything more about this? With an income of $250k they should be able to pay this down faster than the payment plan, if they didn't have a ton of other ridiculous expenses.

-The mortgage. They do not say how much it is but it's obviously a lot consider how big their asses are and the fact that the house is in Chicago. It was their choice to buy a big house in Chicago, no one else's. They could have saved money by getting a smaller house, living in a less expensive area, or renting. But they chose not to. Don't blame your lack of responsibility and common sense on our President.

-Private school. el oh el. Yet another needless expense this guy is bitching about. Newsflash: You do not need to send your farking elementary school kid to a $15k/yr private school, period.

-They also employ house cleaners and lawn mowers. Another needless expense if they are actually hurting, which they aren't.

-Then they claim they will sell their house and car if their taxes are raised. What a bunch of drama queens. With 250k a year income you are not going to sell your fucking house and car. Don't lie to attempt to garner sympathy from neocons.

The whole post was ridiculous and as this guy actually posted this with his real name, he should be publicly shamed. What a fucking moron.
 
If you click on that first link I posted, somebody figured out that for him to paying the taxes he claims to be paying, he is actually making more around $400,000 total.

Because Obama proposes to let the Bush tax cuts expire only on “incomes above $250K”, I was surprised that Prof. Henderson expected to be importantly worse off under the president’s plan, so I went here and plugged in what seemed to be reasonable numbers. He says his family’s “combined income exceeds the $250,000 threshhold for the super rich (but not by that much)” . I tried $140,000 each for him and his wife, $5000 in charitable deductions, and a 5% mortgage on a million-dollar house, which is what would cost about $15K in property tax per year in Chicago, with 80% 20% down [thanks JHA]: $40,000 per year in mortgage interest.

Under Obama’s plan, his federal tax would be $48,333, and his Illinois tax about $8400 (3% of AGI). Under current law (Bush tax cuts), $55,600 + $8400. Oops; what happened? Obama will greatly ease his AMT hit, and his taxable income is less than the $250,000 cutoff. If all the Bush tax cuts expire, his income taxes will be the same as now, $55,600, again because of AMT changes.

But wait a minute: he says he’s paying “nearly $100,000″ in state and federal taxes, not including sales tax; let’s say $95,000. Leaving out his property tax, that’s $80,000 in income tax. How much income would lead to this kind of tax hit? I had to experiment with the calculator a little, but it’s a little less than $170,000 apiece. So his pretax family income exceeds $250,000 by at least $90,000. But this doesn’t include tax-free contributions to their 401Ks: anything they are socking away for retirement adds to his actual income; unless they’re at the $33,000 limit they must just like to pay taxes, or are too stupid to be walking around professing and treating sick kids. So we’re pretty close to $400K gross income, and on top of that their employers are surely putting money into their retirement funds. I guess $150,000 is “not that much” in some circles.

He is also whining about his and his wife’s education loans, $500,000, which are costing them about $50K per year in interest. Let’s just sketch out the family budget here:

Taxes $100,000

Housing* $65,000 mortgage + 15,000 insurance & maintenance = $80,000

Two really nice cars $.70/mile x 15,000** miles = $10,500

Student loan payments (20 year amortization at 10%) = $60,000

*Why a couple with a half-million dollars of debts decides it needs a million-dollar house in Chicago, where the Hyde Park average price ” near their work” is a third of that, is not entirely clear. Also note that $25,000 of this is going into their own pockets, building equity in their house.

**They live near their work, so this is probably generous.

This leaves about $90,000, a lousy $245 a day, for food, clothes, vacations, cable TV, and like that. You can walk into Nordstrom’s on Upper Michigan and spend that in a minute, and for stuff you really need. Really, I don’t know how these people get by; their adaptive skills, economical habits, and modest living style is an inspiration to all of us. Perhaps they are careful to tip no more than 15% at the Sizzler when they splurge.

So how does our third-of-a-million-a-year law prof/doctor couple and their three kids, barely scraping by already and falling before our eyes to the very bottom of the top 1% of US families by income, make out under Obama’s rapacious soak-the-rich commie attack on all that is holy and American and fine? Wait for it; take a guess before the jump:


His taxes will go down $3700; he can buy one of those ties every two weeks! And this guy is threatening to fire the gardener and the house cleaner, take the kid out of art class, turn off his cell phones, and try to raise competent adults with only basic cable. Prof. Henderson, I’m ashamed to share my profession with you.

Henderson’s lying isn’t limited to misrepresenting his income and what the Obama tax plan really means for rich people like him (though I wonder if he actually knows what any of the numbers in his family finances really are). He also blithely says ” The biggest expense for us is financing government.” No it isn’t: their biggest expense, and it’s three times larger, is financing their private consumption. Any budget can be sliced up so the piece you want to look big is the biggest; Henderson is obviously dividing his private expenses up like the budget I constructed above, but choosing not to divide his public expenses into, say: education, policing, national defense, fire protection, keeping his street paved, subsidies to corn farmers and oil companies, etc. etc. If he did that to “financing government”, his largest expense would certainly be his housing. This is a familiar trick, but no less disreputable for that.

The next time you come upon a Chicago law professor in his scuffed Gucci loafers and tattered Armani on the sidewalk, holding up his libertarian down-with-government sign and shaking his tin cup to get his doctor wife and hollow-eyed waifs through another tough week in their million-dollar hovel, please don’t just walk by. Remember, it could be you. Be a mensch: throw a nice shiny 3/8″ washer and couple of nickel slugs in there, with my blessings.
 
Your post made me realize that he has the same last name as me and my husband. I am personally ashamed to even be associated with this fellow even though I doubt very much my husband is related to him (as it is such a common last name).
 
Like most working Americans

This is where the author of the piece gets it dead wrong. dmaul's spot on w/r/t relative deprivation.

As Paul Krugman stated at the end of his last column:
And when the tax fight is over, one way or another, you can be sure that the people currently defending the incomes of the elite will go back to demanding cuts in Social Security and aid to the unemployed. America must make hard choices, they’ll say; we all have to be willing to make sacrifices.

But when they say “we,” they mean “you.” Sacrifice is for the little people.

It doesn't get any more true than that.
 
http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/31/pf/work_only_part_time.moneymag/index.htm


Ah ha! Now here is something I can chime in on.

These fucktards work for Fairfax County Public Schools.

The dude is the Director of Student Activities and Athletics for Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology
http://www.tjhsst.edu/supportingtj/leadership/dsa.php
NOT an assistant principal (was, but not an AP now)

The chick is a Title I SULA Tchr, ES , which from what I can see is a Language Arts teacher for kids who don't speak English very well..could be wrong since I haven't worked with one of those before. She works at
Woodley Hills ES in a title 1 school.

There have been budget cuts in this county because of their poor planning, overspending and frankly bad staff members in the school's HQ, who don't know what the hell they are doing/not qualified, yet being paid 60k+ for it :bomb:

I am really surprised they are cutting her hours considering what is said around the county, "If you work as a teacher or staff member at a title 1 school, then your job is safe because Title 1 schools get the most money and support from the county"...

I've worked at Title 1 schools before....and the biggest problems they have are students with major behavioral problems and students who come from low income families. No one wants to work at a title one school because of this. Yea you can have a heart, but when the little fuckers give you shit for trying to teach them...then they can go fuck themselves.


Back to these fuck tards...

Bottom line is this:

They are using the media to try to save her job.
I personally know Fairfax County won't tolerate being put on the spot like this. They are very strict on how their employees talk to the media. They are both going to get into a lot of shit for this.

Anyone know how I can relay this real information to CNN so they have the real facts?:cool:
 
[quote name='ITDEFX']http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/31/pf/work_only_part_time.moneymag/index.htm


Ah ha! Now here is something I can chime in on.

These fucktards work for Fairfax County Public Schools.

The dude is the Director of Student Activities and Athletics for Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology
http://www.tjhsst.edu/supportingtj/leadership/dsa.php
NOT an assistant principal (was, but not an AP now)

The chick is a Title I SULA Tchr, ES , which from what I can see is a Language Arts teacher for kids who don't speak English very well..could be wrong since I haven't worked with one of those before. She works at
Woodley Hills ES in a title 1 school.

There have been budget cuts in this county because of their poor planning, overspending and frankly bad staff members in the school's HQ, who don't know what the hell they are doing/not qualified, yet being paid 60k+ for it :bomb:

I am really surprised they are cutting her hours considering what is said around the county, "If you work as a teacher or staff member at a title 1 school, then your job is safe because Title 1 schools get the most money and support from the county"...

I've worked at Title 1 schools before....and the biggest problems they have are students with major behavioral problems and students who come from low income families. No one wants to work at a title one school because of this. Yea you can have a heart, but when the little fuckers give you shit for trying to teach them...then they can go fuck themselves.


Back to these fuck tards...

Bottom line is this:

They are using the media to try to save her job.
I personally know Fairfax County won't tolerate being put on the spot like this. They are very strict on how their employees talk to the media. They are both going to get into a lot of shit for this.

Anyone know how I can relay this real information to CNN so they have the real facts?:cool:[/QUOTE]

ITDEFX actually posts something completely relevant and worthwhile in a thread? Holy shit. Nice find there. I don't think you need to relay the facts to CNN though, because any reasonable person reading that article would know these people are dipshits.

From what I understand Fairfax Cty can be an expensive place to live since it's near DC. I'm sure these retards got a nice 500k+ house in a swanky area with luxury SUVs to cart their crotchfruit around and lots of crap for themselves and their house to keep up with the Joneses and now they are complaining they "can't live" on $100k a year. fuck these morons.
 
Huh?

From what I read it's an article about her considering the option of going to a half time position to spend more time with her kids and whether they can maintain their lifestyle with that income reduction.

I don't see anywhere that says her job is at risk, that she's being forced to go halftime. Just that the school is willing to let her go to half time if she decides to do so.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It's silly, but it just shows the notion of relative deprivation.

People get used to a certain standard of living, luxuries start to seem like necessities etc. etc. Many people who are well off for a while lose perspective and their priorities get mixed up.[/QUOTE]

Frankly, I wish more of the 250K+ people spoke up like Mr. Henderson. It would go a long way to dispelling the "Joe the Plumber" mythology cooked up by Palin and her ilk.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']ITDEFX actually posts something completely relevant and worthwhile in a thread? Holy shit. Nice find there. I don't think you need to relay the facts to CNN though, because any reasonable person reading that article would know these people are dipshits.

From what I understand Fairfax Cty can be an expensive place to live since it's near DC. I'm sure these retards got a nice 500k+ house in a swanky area with luxury SUVs to cart their crotchfruit around and lots of crap for themselves and their house to keep up with the Joneses and now they are complaining they "can't live" on $100k a year. fuck these morons.[/QUOTE]

Why was that a compliment DoK? ;)

Yea Fairfax County (and Loudon County) are two fucking expensive counties to live in. The more east in the county you are, the more expensive it is.
if you google map his address..it shows his house...go to street view
256 Burgess Ave Alexandria, VA 22305

I am like, they are bitching about this?!?!?!?!
 
[quote name='camoor']Frankly, I wish more of the 250K+ people spoke up like Mr. Henderson. It would go a long way to dispelling the "Joe the Plumber" mythology cooked up by Palin and her ilk.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. And they try to say democrats are out of touch, elitist, latte sippers etc. :roll:

[quote name='ITDEFX']
I am like, they are bitching about this?!?!?!?![/QUOTE]

Doesn't look that great to me for the price. I'm so glad to be out of the DC area. Most places are like that, pay through the nose for a crummy townhouse, or live really far away and suffer some of the worst traffic in the country to afford a house.

Just one of the most absurdly overpriced places to live in the country when you factor in price plus quality of life.
 
[quote name='camoor']Link

Alot of good stuff it the article.

I feel bad for the guy. As he says, if his tax breaks get repealed, who is going to pay for his luxury house, mow his lawn, clean his house, or watch after his new baby? Just think about what his life would be like without tax breaks - a classic Greek tragedy.

The guy has already cut back - he doesn't order movie channels with his cable TV how much more do you want Obama? How much more do you want????[/QUOTE]

Sounds like the extra money was giving jobs to the people mowing his lawn, cleaning his house and watching his baby.
 
I understand his point about not making enough money to really be considered welathy but I honestly do not give a shit about how he bitches about things and complains its not enough.

My household has two people and total income is roughly 58-60k a year. Yet we managed to pay off a decently nice house, own 2 cars, have broadband, multiple computers, air conditioning, food on the table, clothes, a nice tv setup in the living room, games to play, dvds to watch and so on. Yes more money would be nice but we manage to live a lot better than a lot of people in this country all on roughly 1/4 of what he makes. Even with his big tax cut he still has a hell of a lot more than we do.
 
[quote name='ITDEFX']Why was that a compliment DoK? ;)

Yea Fairfax County (and Loudon County) are two fucking expensive counties to live in. The more east in the county you are, the more expensive it is.
if you google map his address..it shows his house...go to street view
256 Burgess Ave Alexandria, VA 22305

I am like, they are bitching about this?!?!?!?![/QUOTE]
Holy shit that house looks like a ripoff. Barely 1k square feet, over 50 years old, and worth $400k! WTF
 
When unemployment is this high, I can't believe that this dipshit would dare stick his neck out like that. He's complaining about paying more taxes when he makes $250k a year, and there are millions of people who are unemployed and can't find work?

fuck him.
 
Yay for some good, ol' fashioned wealth envy!

Although, such a story would have been better had they gotten a small business owner who's "$250,000" income is their business' income.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Holy shit that house looks like a ripoff. Barely 1k square feet, over 50 years old, and worth $400k! WTF[/QUOTE]

That's the DC metro area for you!

Like I said, one of the biggest rip offs in terms of cost of living and quality of life in the country.
 
Something just dawned on me, Bob is kind of our Uncle Ruckus. Not in a racial way, but in a economic way.
 
Between my wife and I, we make very decent money (> $200k). We intentionally chose a city that had an extremely low cost of living. We rent. Our student loan debt will be gone by the end of the year. We paid cash for our first new car two months ago, and paid less than 10% of our annual net for it. We're saving 50% for our down payment.

I mow our fucking lawn (took 9 weeks for the mower to pay for itself). We clean our house together. We don't have cable. We pay $30 for internet and Netflix combined. Steam sales (Borderlands and CoH ftw) and PS3 game shares are about the extent of my splurges. Any of those games in my sig come out in the last year or so? Risk is the only one, no? My wife uses a 40% off coupon to pick up a book every other week at Borders.
Sounds like the extra money was giving jobs to the people mowing his lawn, cleaning his house and watching his baby.
He won't stop any of those things. He's just the quintessential American shitbag incarnate.
 
There is a very similar story in the LA Times this week about a guy making 250k that's thinking about leaving the country because things are tough.

Glen Esnard, a Newport Beach executive for real estate services firm Grubb & Ellis, went to bat in the Wall Street Journal last week for high-income-earners who believe it’s unfair that their tax rates should rise on Jan. 1, as President Obama proposes.

Esnard also suggested that the answer might be for the better-heeled to find a new country.

In a letter to the newspaper, Esnard wrote that although he includes himself in the population earning more than $250,000 a year:

My family isn't wealthy. I have no funded retirement plan save Social Security, if it is there when I need it. I have no guarantee of permanent health care. I am paying off school loans for our three children. A meaningful number of my friends have lost their jobs, and all who are still employed, including my family, have taken significant pay reductions. . . . This is a classless recession, at least in my experience. It is hitting everyone.

Yet those of us who make $250,000 or more are vilified and held accountable for solving our government's penchant for spending more than it takes in so that politicians can buy votes. We already pay more in taxes than 98% of the population, particularly the nearly 50% of eligible voters who pay no federal income tax. The president wants us to pay more, and he frames it in a way that casts us as not yet carrying our fair share of the burden.

He then goes on to say that the $250K+ class might just vote with their feet:

Apparently our president thinks that living in America is so wonderful that we will never leave, despite being directly attacked and held responsible for the political class's inability to constrain its desire to buy votes with our money. He should think again.

Esnard's letter caught the eye of Reuters blogger Felix Salmon, who wasn’t exactly sympathetic.

I emailed Esnard to ask if he seriously expected high-income-earners to think of leaving the country because their tax rate would rise to 39.6% from 35% (their dividend and capital gains tax rates also would jump), and/or because of Obama's "vilification" campaign, as Esnard put it.

He responded: "Although I am not an expert, I think it is a real issue. No different than people leaving states for more hospitable locations." He also said he has received a "surprising number of resonant e-mails and voicemails."

There is only one more thing this thread needs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0
 
[quote name='Clak']Something just dawned on me, Bob is kind of our Uncle Ruckus. Not in a racial way, but in a economic way.[/QUOTE]

Damn straight. He's a self-hating po' boy.
 
Leaving the country over this is equivalent to taking your ball and going home. Hell, if anything shouldn't it be the poorer people leaving the country and fleeing to some evil socialist country?
 
[quote name='Clak']Leaving the country over this is equivalent to taking your ball and going home. Hell, if anything shouldn't it be the poorer people leaving the country and fleeing to some evil socialist country?[/QUOTE]
More like fuck you, got mine.;)
 
You all act like he doesn't pay a greater share in taxes already.

Even if he is taxed at the same rate as someone making 25,000 he pays more than 50 times more. ( I don't feel like calculating the exact amount for you guys AGAIN)
Even if he is taxed at the current higher rate he pays even more.
But now you all are saying "oh you can still get by comfortably?" well here, let us take some more, its for the good of the country, by golly dontcha know.

And don't give me the "its only 4 percent, its not socialism" bs, if some of you had your ways he would be paying 90% tax.

I mean damn, when are you guys going to realize the guy isn't exactly skimping on paying taxes as it is.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']There is a very similar story in the LA Times this week about a guy making 250k that's thinking about leaving the country because things are tough.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't read the article yet but I read the quote. How the fuck does someone making 250k+ a year not have any money in retirement? Does he bathe in 100 dollar bills or something? Or did he just piss it all away on a luxury house, luxury cars for the whole family, private elementary and secondary schooling for his crotchfruit, a maid/nanny/other household help, and a bunch of other crap no one needs? Both maybe?
 
Yeah, that's just mindblowing. How you can have that income and be that irresponsible with it and not be putting anything toward retirement is just absurd.
 
Yeah, I had that thought as well. Where can he move that's offers a similar quality of life that he's used to and has lower taxes?

Maybe Asia I guess. My g/f is from Taiwan and taxes are lower there despite having universal health care etc. But that would be a pretty big culture shock.
 
[quote name='gargus']My household has two people and total income is roughly 58-60k a year. Yet we managed to pay off a decently nice house, own 2 cars, have broadband, multiple computers, air conditioning, food on the table, clothes, a nice tv setup in the living room, games to play, dvds to watch and so on. Yes more money would be nice but we manage to live a lot better than a lot of people in this country all on roughly 1/4 of what he makes. Even with his big tax cut he still has a hell of a lot more than we do.[/QUOTE]

But you live in Cincinnati! (EDIT: You also don't have kids - they are expensive little shits). You'd find it nearly impossible to live in NYC on that amount and still have all of the things you mentioned. I think the reason people complain about the tax increases at $250,000 is because it is a hard number that doesn't take into consideration the cost of living, which is idiotic.
 
[quote name='Cantatus']Sorry, but I won't be tilting at your strawman.[/QUOTE]

The argument that he already pays quite a bit in taxes is a strawman argument? I know you all don't like to admit that these people DO pay taxes but come on.
 
A lot of big companies in Asia (Singapore, Hong Kong, etc) do pay very nice salary + other benefits for foreign executives. The already pay more than what they would make in the US as it is the only way they can get people to leave their country. So that means if someone wants to make more money in a foreign country, they can already do that.
 
[quote name='javeryh']But you live in Cincinnati! (EDIT: You also don't have kids - they are expensive little shits). You'd find it nearly impossible to live in NYC on that amount and still have all of the things you mentioned. I think the reason people complain about the tax increases at $250,000 is because it is a hard number that doesn't take into consideration the cost of living, which is idiotic.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, cost of living should be factored in.

Though at the same time, it's a choice to live in a high cost of living area--especially when the salary difference doesn't make up the cost of living difference between what you could make in a city with a lower COLA.

Again, I was happy as hell to get out of the DC area. I pay less to live in a super nice condo in a nice part of Atlanta than I paid to live in a crappy apartment in a crappy area in the DC suburbs.

Some cities just aren't worth living in due to COLA.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The argument that he already pays quite a bit in taxes is a strawman argument? I know you all don't like to admit that these people DO pay taxes but come on.[/QUOTE]
Law of marginal utility. fucking google it.

Also, let's not go crazy with this fabled COLA. $250k can put you Very comfortably right smick in the middle of Boston and almost every single nice suburb within 20 miles while owning 2 mid-level luxury cars, kids, and the whole kaboodle. Mind you, Boston has some of the most expensive real estate in the country. In NYC, you can go less than 15 miles from the city and find a place in which you don't need to be a millionaire to live like that family. This phenomenon exists by every major city in the country.

It seems as if a couple of you here truly don't understand the scale of how much $250k really is. It's an ASSLOAD of money to make every year. These people are not poor or struggling. Cash poor does not equal asset poor.
 
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[quote name='Knoell']The argument that he already pays quite a bit in taxes is a strawman argument? I know you all don't like to admit that these people DO pay taxes but come on.[/QUOTE]

In the way you presented it? Yes, it is. If you want to bring up the fact that he already pays a lot in taxes, go for it, but to imply that people are "act[ing] like he doesn't pay a greater share in taxes already" is building up an argument no one has made just so you can tear it down. People are arguing against his claims of hardship at his taxes increasing. No one has made the argument one way or the other about what share of taxes he is paying. And really, some, like berzirk and myself, have actually addressed what he loses in taxes.

And your second sentence is just patently ridiculous. No one in this thread has suggested he doesn't pay taxes. Make your own arguments. Stop trying to shove arguments into other people's mouths.
 
Fact is income taxes almost have to be progressive. A flat tax--while it sounds fair on the surface, really isn't.

For instance, its a lot more burden for someone making $20K a year to pay 25% taxes than someone making $200K.

It's a pretty major quality of life difference between $15K and $20K. Much less between $200K and $175K. The first is struggling even more to get buy, the second is maybe cutting back on some big luxuries.

So if we want to have this absurd defense budget, maintain infrastructure, have good public education etc. we need a progressive tax systems as the highest a flat tax could be for the lower brackets wouldn't raise near enough money.

Now yes, there's bloat that could be cut--especially defense spending--but a lot of cuts should just be redistribution to education, health care, social security, research and development to keep the US competitive etc. rather than outright cuts. Not to mention the obligation to pay down national debt. Point being spending isn't going down. The rate of growth could maybe be slowed, but that's it realistically.
 
You know, it isn't even Knoell's ideas, it's how he comes about them. "Well 25% of their income is more than 25% of a lower income!" No shit dude, we can handle basic math. We also know that taking 25% of $50k means taking someone's income down to $37.5k, big difference. $250k - 25% = $187.5K, oh my gosh how will they ever live?

I'm not even against people making large amounts of money, I'd like to be one myself some day, but I promise you all if it ever happens, I won't bitch about having to cut back on cleaning services or having to cut my own yard. Of course, I'd also be smart enough to not live beyond my means either.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']For instance, its a lot more burden for someone making $20K a year to pay 25% taxes than someone making $200K.

It's a pretty major quality of life difference between $15K and $20K. Much less between $200K and $175K. The first is struggling even more to get buy, the second is maybe cutting back on some big luxuries.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. And by the same logic, someone making over $250K in North Dakota doesn't feel the tax increase as much as the guy making $250K in NYC. This is why people who appear to be making an "assload" of money complain about the tax increase. To me, the $250K threshold isn't high enough. If they set the bar at $750K or even $500K that would make a lot more sense.
 
[quote name='javeryh']Exactly. And by the same logic, someone making over $250K in North Dakota doesn't feel the tax increase as much as the guy making $250K in NYC. This is why people who appear to be making an "assload" of money complain about the tax increase. To me, the $250K threshold isn't high enough. If they set the bar at $750K or even $500K that would make a lot more sense.[/QUOTE]
False equivalency. It would depend on where in North Dakota. I'm sure there's at least one community in which there is a similar COLA as NYC.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Fact is income taxes almost have to be progressive. A flat tax--while it sounds fair on the surface, really isn't.

For instance, its a lot more burden for someone making $20K a year to pay 25% taxes than someone making $200K.

It's a pretty major quality of life difference between $15K and $20K. Much less between $200K and $175K. The first is struggling even more to get buy, the second is maybe cutting back on some big luxuries.

So if we want to have this absurd defense budget, maintain infrastructure, have good public education etc. we need a progressive tax systems as the highest a flat tax could be for the lower brackets wouldn't raise near enough money.

Now yes, there's bloat that could be cut--especially defense spending--but a lot of cuts should just be redistribution to education, health care, social security, research and development to keep the US competitive etc. rather than outright cuts. Not to mention the obligation to pay down national debt. Point being spending isn't going down. The rate of growth could maybe be slowed, but that's it realistically.[/QUOTE]

I wonder about more money being put into education and health care--as far as I know there's been cries for that sort of thing in my state for 20 years. So there's more financial aid for college students--that just means universities have a new baseline to set tuition at. Now financial aid is a given, and if you're not getting it you're at a serious disadvantage (i.e. getting ripped off). In health care it's the same thing, insurance is a given. The only difference here is that an individual might be paying for their insurance--provided by companies that can easily deny or obstruct a claim when it is needed.

So here what you have is bloat presented in the guise of assistance and affordability.
 
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