Student Faces Expulsion for Criticizing Formation of Gays In Non-University Forum

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Duquesne U. student punished for remarks about gays

Thursday, October 27, 2005

AP
A Duquesne University sophomore said he will risk being expelled for expressing his view that homosexuality is "subhuman" rather than write a 10-page essay the university has called for.

Ryan Miner, 19, of Hagerstown, Md., was sanctioned by the university for posting his view on an online forum not related to the university.

He opposed an effort by other students to form a Gay-Straight Alliance group, an issue still being debated by the Catholic university.

"I believe as a student that my First Amendment rights in the Constitution were subverted and attacked," said Miner, who is Catholic.

After his comments appeared online, some students complained to the school. After a hearing, the office of judicial affairs found Miner guilty of violating the University Code which prohibits harassment or discrimination based on, among other groups, sexual orientation. The paper was assigned as punishment, which Miner said he will appeal.
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This is just unbelieveable. If this was a University sponsored online message board, posting, forum etc. they may have a case. It wasn't, so they don't.

If any of you are University students can you imagine being brought up on any kind of school related charges from what you may post online here, DU, FR or any other political message board?

How on Earth can they justify this? This is making the rounds on talk radio and the blogs this morning. Duquesne is bringing down a real shit storm on themselves today.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']This is just unbelieveable. If this was a University sponsored online message board, posting, forum etc. they may have a case. It wasn't, so they don't.

If any of you are University students can you imagine being brought up on any kind of school related charges from what you may post online here, DU, FR or any other political message board?

How on Earth can they justify this? This is making the rounds on talk radio and the blogs this morning. Duquesne is bringing down a real shit storm on themselves today.[/QUOTE]
Eh, the kid's just being a douche. The University wants a paper on it, and he's refusing to do it. They didn't just come out and expell him, they gave him a chance to explain himself (which he denied). It's not like he would've been graded on it or anything either, he could've just BS'd it and filled it with quotes.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']Eh, the kid's just being a douche. The University wants a paper on it, and he's refusing to do it. They didn't just come out and expell him, they gave him a chance to explain himself (which he denied). It's not like he would've been graded on it or anything either, he could've just BS'd it and filled it with quotes.[/QUOTE]

If they could expell you for not doing or not wanting to do a paper, we would have a lot less people in our colleges.
 
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. It wasn't on a forum affiliated with the university, so he shouldn't be punished for it.

If it was a university forum, though, action could be warranted. "Subhuman"? Come on. People who think like that are no better than people who says other aces are "subhuman".
 
[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']If they could expell you for not doing or not wanting to do a paper, we would have a lot less people in our colleges.[/QUOTE]
You say that as if it's a bad thing. ;)
 
Had he qualifed "Bush" or "Christians" as subhuman no one would have said boo.

The University has no business governing speech outside its ranks. Period. I fail to see how he's being a douche. Why should he acquiesce and bow down to the school when they have no authority over the forums in which this was done?
 
Doesn't matter if it's public or private. Would you like to face academic sanctions or discipline for what you may write here? What are the grounds?
 
He's a douche for calling millions of people "subhumans".

Just a question for clarity, Was he using the university's computers or ISP to post his knuckle-dragging comments? Or was this completely separate from them?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Had he qualifed "Bush" or "Christians" as subhuman no one would have said boo.

The University has no business governing speech outside its ranks. Period. I fail to see how he's being a douche. Why should he acquiesce and bow down to the school when they have no authority over the forums in which this was done?[/QUOTE]
It has something to do with the University being a private establishment, and as such it has the right to choose who/what it associates itself with.

When you write something on the internet, it becomes public. Now, it's not like the University has a special-ops team sweeping the internet looking for this stuff. They got complaints, and they acted accordingly.

It's kind of like how restaurants put "We have the right to refuse service to anyone" on their menus. It doesn't happen often, but if you come into the place with a big swastika on your shirt, don't expect to be seated.

Free speach doesn't mean freedom from consequences.
 
Wait, since it's a private school, it all depends on what their code of conduct says about these matters. If there is some provision that allows them to discipline students for conduct or speech engaged in outside of school, then there's no problem here, as the student agreed to be governed by said code of conduct when he enrolled.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']What difference does it make what ISP he used? BFD, irrelevant.

I guess academic freedom only goes so far huh.[/QUOTE]
If the University is providing the internet access, they have an interest in not fostering hate speech which in today's litigious society, they could be held responsible for.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']When you write something on the internet, it becomes public.[/QUOTE]

Bingo. There was a blog article (ironically written, as you will see) by the chair of a university dept. I read a month or so back, pointing out that university hiring practices have begun to include searches for blogs and other internet forms of "airing dirty laundry." To do so under your real name (not to blog, per se, but to use it as a public means of expressing your work-related displeasures or otherwise speak bad of your university) will, in this day and age, immediately write you off of the list of job potentials. You simply aren't worth the risk.

It's very different to say the same thing of students, however. The debate is *not* closed as to whether they should be treated similarly or differently. I'm opposed to trying to silence students or faculty completely, yet I'm opposed to allowing every prissy little fuckwad that thinks they are the center of the universe to air their pretentious greivances.

However, simply calling homosexuals "subhuman" does not lie on either of those extremes. I don't agree with his sentiment, but he does not deserve to be expelled. What I recommend is this: let him continue on, have him write the paper. If "subhuman" is the best he can muster, then I can only imagine how cogent his paper will look. :roll: Fail him if he deserves it (that includes a poorly written paper as well as refusing to do it), pass him if he deserves it. It's not the school's obligation to indoctrinate; if this shitball is afraid to intellectually open his mind to entertaining thoughts and ideas contrary to his (for the obvious fear of being proven wrong on each and every point), that is unfortunate, yet not grounds for expulsion.

As a personal example, I had a student this summer who attended class pretty often, tried to do their best, and still did very poorly on the final exam as well as my research project. They attempted to discuss their effort on the paper and the exam, and failed to realize that we had a mutual acquaintance. Both of us happen to have this person as a "friend" on myspace, so I accidentally (I swear to this) stumbled across the student's myspace page via our acquaintance. The page was a veritable itinerary of how much drinking, partying, and getting high was going on during the time this class was going on. There was little to debate, in the end. So, there is a lesson to be learned by being careful how much you divulge about your "real life" online. It can affect you outside of PAD calling you various homophobic activities.
 
Universities should be bastions of the first amendment (no surprise to me that a Catholic university would not agree).

As long as students are not advocating physically harming an innocent individual or group of individuals, I see no reason for them to be expelled.

Besides, in this case threatening expulsion will only make this bigot more radical while giving him a platform of self-rightousness.
 
[quote name='camoor']Universities should be bastions of the first amendment (no surprise to me that a Catholic university would not agree).

As long as students are not advocating physically harming an innocent individual or group of individuals, I see no reason for them to be expelled.

Besides, in this case threatening expulsion will only make this bigot more radical while giving him a platform of self-rightousness.[/QUOTE]

It's a PRIVATE university. The rules are different than at a public one.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']if this shitball is afraid to intellectually open his mind to entertaining thoughts and ideas contrary to his (for the obvious fear of being proven wrong on each and every point), that is unfortunate, yet not grounds for expulsion.[/QUOTE]

Catholic university Mikey... I think you can actually go for a masters in close minded biggotry. :lol:
 
Private universities can do whatever they please for the most part. If they don't want you in the school, they can kick you out or whatever as long as the school doesn't break the law in doing so.
 
[quote name='rabidmonkeys']True, but it is his right to do so.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. I will never argue with that right to freedom of expression. But in exercising that right, you open yourself to being called a "douche" when you are, in fact, acting like one.

And there is no First Amendment arguement here since the private university, and not the government, is involved. He's not being expelled because of his comments. He's being expelled for refusing to do the paper. Hairsplitting perhaps, but there is a difference. He could write his own manifesto and still be in school.

Are there any other articles on this? I couldn't find any. I'm curious how the university found out about his comments. Was he posting under his real name online? Was he using university equipment to post it or was this something he did completely separate from the university? Any comments from his parents?
 
[quote name='Kayden']Catholic university Mikey... I think you can actually go for a masters in close minded biggotry. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Just like you can get at Stanford, SUNY, Brown, Harvard, Columbia, Yale and countless other schools! You know, under those "Women's Studies", "African Studies" and "Social Justice" cirriculums that lay the blame for every problem in the world at the feet of white European males.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']"I believe as a student that my First Amendment rights in the Constitution were subverted and attacked," said Miner, who is Catholic.

After his comments appeared online, some students complained to the school. After a hearing, the office of judicial affairs found Miner guilty of violating the University Code which prohibits harassment or discrimination based on, among other groups, sexual orientation. The paper was assigned as punishment, which Miner said he will appeal.[/QUOTE]

Well, the university has a policy against descrimination against sexual orientation. There was a hearing that showed the student's guilt (most likely, he testafied on the order of saying those comments). His first amendment rights were not attacked, but one can't say whatever they want and not expect people to react otherwise. Not to mention, by being accepted to the university, he agrees not to say disparaging things about homosexuals. he has all the rights in the world to say negative things about homosexuals, however, he doesn't have the right to say things and go to a school that doesn't tolerate hate speech if they wish to not accept him.

The paper was assigned to him as punishment. By refusing to do the paper, he risks expulsion.

This isn't him going into a civics class, being assigned a paper and refusing to do it.

Also, many other students complained to the university staff about the student's comments on Homosexuality. So, the university didn't seek him out until after students complained. The student most likely admitted to it, or irrefutable evidence shows that he posted the message and violeted their anti hate speech rule.

The university is wholly in the right if they plan on enforcing anti hate speech rules they have set up.
 
Ani-hate speech rules have no place in any academic institution, period.

You cannot have discourse on sensitive topics without offending someone. You can't further debate without offending people or their held beliefs. Earth is round and you're Galileo? Hate speech. Evolution before Darwin? Hate speech. DNA is a double helix before Crick and Watson? Hate speech. You challenged conventional wisdom with all of those.

Now I am not equating distateful statements about gays with scientific theories and facts. However if you're not willing to have open and honest discourse about all issues at hand you're defeating the purpose of a University. "I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.". "Hate" speech is contrary to every academic freedom argument that's ever been put forth.

Secondary to that argument and debate though is that the University has no right to have jurisdiction over forums which it does not sponsor, endorse or provide. We had marchers at a Catholic school that went to the Mall every anniversary of Roe v. Wade that marched for choice. None of them faced academic sanction. I fail to see how this is any different.
 
In some countries he may have a case, but free speech is limited in educational institutions in the u.s. As to the extent of college free speech, the answer to what is acceptable doesn't seem to have a definitive answer from the little bit of googling I did. But, this being a private institution, they can do what they want essentially. Therefore, I don't see how he's going to win this one.

Really PAD, aren't you one of the people who wants more private institutions? If you can't tolerate stuff like this, then I suggest changing your mind on that part.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Ani-hate speech rules have no place in any academic institution, period.

You cannot have discourse on sensitive topics without offending someone. You can't further debate without offending people or their held beliefs. Earth is round and you're Galileo? Hate speech. Evolution before Darwin? Hate speech. DNA is a double helix before Crick and Watson? Hate speech. You challenged conventional wisdom with all of those.

Now I am not equating distateful statements about gays with scientific theories and facts. However if you're not willing to have open and honest discourse about all issues at hand you're defeating the purpose of a University. "I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.". "Hate" speech is contrary to every academic freedom argument that's ever been put forth.

Secondary to that argument and debate though is that the University has no right to have jurisdiction over forums which it does not sponsor, endorse or provide. We had marchers at a Catholic school that went to the Mall every anniversary of Roe v. Wade that marched for choice. None of them faced academic sanction. I fail to see how this is any different.[/QUOTE]

Well, now we're getting beyond what is legal and what you feel is right. To me, I would rather people be able to say what they please, but I have no problem for the person getting caught by a University's anti-hate speech policy.
 
>>A Duquesne University sophomore said he will risk being expelled for expressing his view that homosexuality is "subhuman" rather than write a 10-page essay the university has called for.

That is just beyond the fucking pale.

Im all for free speech and shit but fuck this asshat.

Let him got to Bob Jones University.

P.s. was he using the schools computer?
 
[quote name='Msut77']>>A Duquesne University sophomore said he will risk being expelled for expressing his view that homosexuality is "subhuman" rather than write a 10-page essay the university has called for.

That is just beyond the fucking pale.

Im all for free speech and shit but fuck this asshat.

Let him got to Bob Jones University.

P.s. was he using the schools computer?[/QUOTE]

THere's a quote feature. Use it.
 
People at universities should feel safe from hate so that they can study.

The university did the right thing punishing that bastard.
 
[quote name='evanft']It's a PRIVATE university. The rules are different than at a public one.[/QUOTE]

Just because something is legal, it does not make it ethically right.

It's disturbing to me that whenever we have a conversation about ethics, someone always turns it into a legal discussion. Everything that is permissable under US law is not necessarily ethically or morally correct!
 
[quote name='camoor']Just because something is legal, it does not make it ethically right.

It's disturbing to me that whenever we have a conversation about ethics, someone always turns it into a legal discussion. Everything that is permissable under US law is not necessarily ethically or morally correct![/QUOTE]
To be fair, PAD didn't frame his original argument as an ethical or moral debate.
This is just unbelieveable. If this was a University sponsored online message board, posting, forum etc. they may have a case. It wasn't, so they don't.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']To be fair, PAD didn't frame his original argument as an ethical or moral debate.[/QUOTE]

My comment wasn't directed at PAD - it was more of a general comment on the way that conversations seem to turn out.
 
[quote name='Msut77']evanft

>>THere's a quote feature. Use it.

Eat poop.[/QUOTE]

What are you, retarded? If you want to quote someone, use the god damn quote button. It's there for a reason. It makes the posts look nicer and easier to read.
 
>>What are you, retarded?

Nope, cant say that I am.

>>>It makes the posts look nicer and easier to read.

Ask me if I care.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']block'd![/QUOTE]

Been there, done that; I'm sure that Msut has *something* to offer, but trying to read their posts had become such a tedious ordeal that I just put them on my ignore list.

23 and counting.
 
Private school

The conservatives love to argue that businesses can do whatever or say whatever they want on their own property.

Well, he's going to get expelled from a private school for being a bigoted P.O.S. I like the school's decision personally, but I don't like freedom of speech being trampled on. It's not right for a university, like someone said, "a bastion of free speech", to come down on people for stuff like this. But it's a private organization that can keep whoever they want, as long as they aren't discriminating.

Sounds like a public university is where he needs to go if he wants real freedom of speech.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']And they're the first to whine when conservative speech is limited.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, it should read:

"The conservatives love to argue that businesses can do whatever or say whatever they want as long as it doesn't offend the conservative ideology on their own property."

and

"The conservatives love to argue that states should have broader rights when it comes to writing legislation as long as it doesn't offend the conservative ideology."

... there are plenty more, but you get the idea.
 
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