Stupidity - the industry must change

d510r9

d510r9

CAGiversary!
Wombat and Cheapy,

A product that costs millions of dollars to develop (such as Manhunt) should not reach going gold status before getting feedback from international censors/classification boards.

Surely developers can follow a standardised checklist that enables them to have a very good idea of the final rating they will receive? If I had invested money in a product that weeks before release would require major reworking and even then may still receive a total ban from major retailers/formats I would be pretty fuck ed off.

How can a company put so much work into a product while not taking into consideration the possibility that they may never be able to sell it?

Richie
xxx
 
The only concession that media censorship opponents have won recently is from the courts, on the (patently obvious) ruling that profanities such as fuck and shit do not necessarily refer to reproductive and scatological bodily functions.

The fundies have been setting the clock back on free expression for too long - the tide of censorship is beginning to turn but we've still got a long way to go.
 
Let us not forget you're referencing a game from Rockstar.. the company that made its name and its business almost solely based on pushing the boundries. In all honesty, Grand Theft Auto was not nearly as good a game and never should have been as profitable a franchise as it turned out to be.. the media coverage made it become what it is.

If pushing the envelope sold three editions of GTA, Manhunt and Bully.. it should do the same for Manhunt 2, they just have to push a little more each time to keep people going.
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb']Let us not forget you're referencing a game from Rockstar.. the company that made its name and its business almost solely based on pushing the boundries. In all honesty, Grand Theft Auto was not nearly as good a game and never should have been as profitable a franchise as it turned out to be.. the media coverage made it become what it is.

If pushing the envelope sold three editions of GTA, Manhunt and Bully.. it should do the same for Manhunt 2, they just have to push a little more each time to keep people going.[/quote]

Exactly, god damn well said.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they already had a toned down version ready to go, and pulled this stunt so now everyone will go out and buy the M version to see what's missing and to play the game that got banned by the world. This also drives people to defend rockstar, and builds their fanbase without even having to release a game.
 
Bet those review copies would sell for lots of $$$ on ebay.

And this isn't the first time games have gone gold and been stopped from release for one reason or another.

It's not like this was going to be some great game or something.
 
Lets start with baby steps. How about having new games in stores on a specific date like movies.
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb']Let us not forget you're referencing a game from Rockstar.. the company that made its name and its business almost solely based on pushing the boundries. In all honesty, Grand Theft Auto was not nearly as good a game and never should have been as profitable a franchise as it turned out to be.. the media coverage made it become what it is.[/QUOTE]
Riddiculous. GTA III was a great game, and absolutely revolutionary.

Rockstar will not make ANY money off of this Manhunt 2 fiasco.
 
[quote name='Halo05']Um... I think that already happens. Maybe my sarcasm detector is broken.[/QUOTE]
I think he's refering to street dates, which is how movies and music do things. Rather than just saying "Oh it ships on this day, and gets to stores when it gets there."
 
[quote name='d510r9']Surely developers can follow a standardised checklist that enables them to have a very good idea of the final rating they will receive?[/QUOTE]

Instead of a checklist they use the precedents set by the game that came before them. If the ESRB rates Mario stomping on a goomba E the precedent is set and they can't go back and suddenly say that it is T for your similar game.

That's why it's important to push the boundary and define it - especially in an industry that would rather cave to public pressure and does not hold the same standards as other media.

I believe that is why why R* was surprised by the decision because they thought that they had already established that the Hostel-like movie violence that they used in Manhunt, which recieved an M, was acceptable again in Manhunt 2.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I think he's refering to street dates, which is how movies and music do things. Rather than just saying "Oh it ships on this day, and gets to stores when it gets there."[/QUOTE]

Ooh... Okay. I've generally always been able to get what I want the day after the ship date (if it's something I want ASAP) but I guess in different parts of the world, it's different.
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb']Let us not forget you're referencing a game from Rockstar.. the company that made its name and its business almost solely based on pushing the boundries. In all honesty, Grand Theft Auto was not nearly as good a game and never should have been as profitable a franchise as it turned out to be.. the media coverage made it become what it is.

If pushing the envelope sold three editions of GTA, Manhunt and Bully.. it should do the same for Manhunt 2, they just have to push a little more each time to keep people going.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but you're out of your fucking tree thinking that GTA was nothing more than media hype. It was well and truly one of the AAA titles released during the last generation and was perhaps the game with the most influence (admittedly both positive and negative) over the previous generation.

And as for Bully, you, like Jack Thompson, have painted it with the "Rockstar=Bad" brush. The content in Bully is perhaps even more tame than Skool Daze, a game released more than 20 years ago!

I'm not wading into this debate as a universal Rockstar defender. They have made some very stupid mistakes and if I were a shareholder, I would be upset about some of the moves that they have made in the past. But let's not rewrite history or assume that all of Rockstar's output is just fired from the same cannon.
 
[quote name='nativetongue88']another manhunt 2 thread jesus....will everyone just relax.....the game is going to come out, dont worry.[/QUOTE]
This is true as well.

I'm in the boat that thinks that this is probably either:

a. Rockstar wanting to get some publicity out of the game that more than likely, due to being released on an also-ran handheld, a previous-gen system and the only current-gen system whose market runs absolutely perpendicular to the content in the game, will not sell all that well. (Congrats if you made it through THAT sentence)

b. Using the old trick of submitting something to the ratings board with far more gratuitous content than they actually plan on releasing with, so that post- the board's recommendations, they can cut the extraneous content and be left with an M rated game with all of their desired content intact.
 
The only reason I don't believe that they submitted an amped up version of Manhunt 2 is that Take Two is reportedly trying to sell itself. Bad publicity won't help that at all.
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb']Let us not forget you're referencing a game from Rockstar.. the company that made its name and its business almost solely based on pushing the boundries. In all honesty, Grand Theft Auto was not nearly as good a game and never should have been as profitable a franchise as it turned out to be.. the media coverage made it become what it is.

If pushing the envelope sold three editions of GTA, Manhunt and Bully.. it should do the same for Manhunt 2, they just have to push a little more each time to keep people going.[/quote]

Man you're just too cool for school, huh? GTAIII was revolutionary to many people. Yeah, some of its fans are just wannabe thugs but that doesn't take away from the quality game that it was. It has minor issues but overall it is the defining console game from last generation. Maybe all the GTA clones have blinded you to the quality of the GTA series?
 
[quote name='dragonreborn23']Man you're just too cool for school, huh? GTAIII was revolutionary to many people. Yeah, some of its fans are just wannabe thugs but that doesn't take away from the quality game that it was. It has minor issues but overall it is the defining console game from last generation. Maybe all the GTA clones have blinded you to the quality of the GTA series?[/QUOTE]

Not at all.. and as much as I hate people who talk poorly of the major franchises (ala Final Fantasy, mainstream music, etc) simply because it "makes them look cool and independant".... I found the entire GTA series quite boring, it was fun to play around with for around 1-2 hours and then it was pure boredom.

I know I'm not alone in that opinion of it either./
 
Cornfedwb,

I am with you there. I will give it a bit more than 1-2 hours but its actually pretty repetitive game, theres just lots of places to do the same stuff at. Sometimes it brings a different outcome, but for the most part its much more confined game than you would initially think.

I myself grew bored of it rather quickly. This has been discussed to death though and no one is going to convince the other to change their mind.
 
[quote name='furyk']The only reason I don't believe that they submitted an amped up version of Manhunt 2 is that Take Two is reportedly trying to sell itself. Bad publicity won't help that at all.[/quote]Ah, but a calculated risk to increase awareness and therefore sales of its then M-rated title wouldn't be too shabby. Adding another solid franchise to "the guys who make GTA" couldn't hurt their value, could it? I don't necessarily believe it, but I don't consider it unlikely.
 
Two different boats sir. It's like saying an R movie can do as well as a PG-13 movie, therefore a NC-17 movie can do as well as a R movie.
 
[quote name='furyk']Two different boats sir. It's like saying an R movie can do as well as a PG-13 movie, therefore a NC-17 movie can do as well as a R movie.[/quote]I'm just sayin' the free pub for their rerated M title will get it a lot more sales than if the thing had just glided out to retail with an M off the bat.
 
[quote name='botticus']I'm just sayin' the free pub for their rerated M title will get it a lot more sales than if the thing had just glided out to retail with an M off the bat.[/QUOTE]

And I disagree. The only people who are paying attention to this are gaming nerds and lawyers. Furthermore, there'll be more then one gaming nerd who'll turn around and not buy Manhunt 2 because it's been censored because of this.

Case of differing opinions I suppose. Time will tell and all that jazz.
 
[quote name='botticus']Ah, but a calculated risk to increase awareness and therefore sales of its then M-rated title wouldn't be too shabby. Adding another solid franchise to "the guys who make GTA" couldn't hurt their value, could it? I don't necessarily believe it, but I don't consider it unlikely.[/QUOTE]

Why do people believe such ridiculous things? Do you know how much money T2 is going to lose editing Manhunt 2? Do you know how much they lost recalling and editing SA? Do you know how many gamers decided to hate T2, R* and GTA because of Hot Coffee?

I see no reason why they would purposely do those things to themselves. For a little bit of press? No way.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']Why do people believe such ridiculous things? Do you know how much money T2 is going to lose editing Manhunt 2? Do you know how much they lost recalling and editing SA? Do you know how many gamers decided to hate T2, R* and GTA because of Hot Coffee?

I see no reason why they would purposely do those things to themselves. For a little bit of press? No way.[/QUOTE]

We know they lost a decent bit of money with San Andres, but only the nerdiest of nerdy gamers declared "I'll never buy a Take Two game again" because of Hot Coffee, and we have no clue how much money, if any, it'll cost because of Manhunt 2. It could very well be that Take Two did send the ESRB a trumped up game as a publicity stunt. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Rockstar to develop a game knowing full well it'll get rated AO unless it's either a publicity stunt or they're trying to raise the bar because GTA 4 is "worse" then previous GTAs in terms of adult content.
 
Let's just put it this way: if the AO rating is based on an authentic planned-to-distribute version of the game, then either a) T2/R* are idiots for thinking whatever they put out would get through with an M rating or b) ESRB made the decision to make a borderline game AO. But none of this will ever be answered unless we see the rated footage.

And Scrubking, please read the last sentence of the post of mine that you quoted.
 
[quote name='furyk']...they're trying to raise the bar because GTA 4 is "worse" then previous GTAs in terms of adult content.[/quote]

Judging from the GTAIV news today, it will most definitely be more realistic: bullet holes are visible in place of impact, and AI responds adequately to wounds (e.g. leg wound - character limps). Supposedly running people over with a vehicle will be "a lot more disturbing" in accordance to a Turkish gaming magazine.

This post of mine means nothing and agrees with nobody. I don't want to be a part of the "publicity stunt vs. not" argumentation.
 
[quote name='furyk']And I disagree. The only people who are paying attention to this are gaming nerds and lawyers. Furthermore, there'll be more then one gaming nerd who'll turn around and not buy Manhunt 2 because it's been censored because of this.

Case of differing opinions I suppose. Time will tell and all that jazz.[/quote]


i beg to differ. especially during the instances when a game makes the news for causing a controversy. the people that see it become interested. parents see it and disapprove so then their kids want it more. the general public eats controversies up. i know when something is banned in some country i definatly want to see why.

but as you said, only time will tell on this one...
 
Blah blah blah everytime a game is on the horizon these topics come up... Its one side versus the other and it's simple... Buy the game or don't buy it.. I bet alot of the people on here harking this game are going to purchase it and people bashing GTA owned at least two of them...


Your keeping the buzz going and adding onto the hype to this game with having these threads...

This is not the first time a game has hit a console like this..

Aren't these games AO or were toned down for the cosoles?

Leisure suit Larry
Playboy the Mansion
BMX XXX
The Guy Game....

Im sorry but some of the things that people see in movies is alot worse than what you see in a game for the real factor considering something digital on your TV or PC.. people that these games effect and act on are people that were sick in the noodle to begin with.


So bottom line buy it or don't buy it and shut up !!! :lol: lol im done now..
 
[quote name='jer7583']It sure worked to get you guys talking..[/QUOTE]
Much MUCH smaller things have had the internets ABLAZE.
 
Uh, guys, maybe you didn't notice, but Rockstar is also built on excess. Take Bully for instance: Nearly every character in the game had dialogue for combat taunts, for being nailed hard with a slingshot, for even taking one to the crotch. The shopkeepers, the girls, the adults...

The problem is that you don't get to fight the shopkeepers, girls, teachers, or adults. The former kick you out of the store. The latter three groups will spawn an army of angry authority figures the instant you attack. Hell, girls just run away from all but the rare, glitchy instances of combat.

Hell, the teachers don't even show up around campus.

Rockstar usually delivers so much more content for their games than is necessary (Even beyond an immersion/improvement into really good range threshold), and a great deal of it ends up getting cut or not used.

Hell, they could have cut the environmental chatter in both Bully and Warriors by half and it would have hardly affected the game.

I guess they save on engine reuse, but still... their business model is hardly economical.
 
[quote name='jer7583']It sure worked to get you guys talking..[/QUOTE]

Like I said earlier (in one of the four other threads), the only people paying attention to this are gaming nerds. :)
 
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