'Teacher of Year' tell tells brat student to “Go back to Mexico”

[Spokker]

[quote name='docvinh']Yep, I would willingly boot social studies and american history at any time.[/QUOTE]No, an American citizen needs to know how our political and legal systems work on, at the very least, a basic level.

Economics is also very much overlooked at the high school level. There was only one semester of economics where I went to school.

I don't see why we need completely separate ethnic studies classes. I went to public school in California and there was no shortage of local history in which non-whites were the focus. I want real history, not a divisive curriculum filtered through the lens of La Raza and MEChA.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Soodmeg']Before I would answer that I would have to ask how does looking at a vacuum add to the conversation? Its one school out of a million schools country wide. They are a thousand different reasons that could have happened in that instants. With a dozen more fact that need to be included to even think about it.

Thats kind of a hallow point.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for making my point. Now that you get it, are you still going to use the anecdote of you getting out and applying it across the board?

Plus, you cant be that, excuse the pun, black and white on the issue. CLEARLY 1 situation doesnt represent every situation on the planet. One group of smart Mexicans doesnt magically make 10 million others irrelevant.

Right again! The funny thing is that most of the students are considered "high risk," so they weren't all exactly what you would call the brightest of the bunch.

I dont know DD, you seem to have the position that everything has to have a greater conspiracy behind it linking it directly back to race. I dont see how that can be good for anyone.

It's not some kind of conspiracy where it's a handful old white guys think up ways to screw some brother on the street and I try not to characterize it as such. It's just a bunch of societal norms that perpetuate itself. Just because I name it doesn't make it so. I could argue classism and do on occasion, but I'm not that well versed in Marx and am much more familiar with race. Whether you interpret knowing and talking about the marginalized history of people of color as "good" or "bad" is something you need to wrestle with on your own because I don't see you really being interesting in discussing it, only that it "feels" "bad."

Its one thing to understand how race plays a part in the world its another to use it as direct reasoning for everything that happens to you. Especially here in America...where there is very few ethic cleansing going on. Have I been followed around in a store before? Yes...but I didnt hold a grudge so big that it ruled my life for the next 5 years.

Ethnic cleansing has happened for longer than you think. Native American women have been systematically sterilized up until the 1970's as well as having their children taken away from them so the kids could more easily "assimilate" into white culture.

Also, it's not just about being followed in stores; it's about the whole cummulative process of having to deal with and experience discrimination. Being followed around a few times is one thing; being followed a vast majority of the time along with your peers having similar experiences says something completely different.

[quote name='Spokker']It has nothing to do with Mexican Studies. Look at the story of Jaime Escalante. It was liberal policies that held him and his program back and it eventually led to his ouster.

A few good bits about his life are here: http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/31/jaime-escalante-rip

There's much more at this link: http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited/singlepage

He also opposed bilingual education.[/QUOTE]
One man can't change a system? No ing shit. Posting libertarian bullshit is certainly a way to get me engaged though. Being an exceptionally good math teacher does not mean that he's some ubermensch that understands all things. I know a lot about race; does that make me an expert on how a theoretical physicist should solve a string theory equation?

Run like the school system like an Escalante and you measure success based on results and treat students like human beings, not political pawns in which to score points with. Mexican kids don't need Mexican Studies, they need Plain Old Studies. All ethnic studies classes are a waste of time. They need math, science, writing and reading.

So who's history are we learning in "plain old studies?" And how are we learning math, science, and writing? I guess pedagogy and historiography(that's for you dmaul) aren't big issues with you considering your lack of ability to critically think about these issues.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']Of course there's discrimination. The black and Hispanic applicants for employment, housing and loans are less qualified on average. Groups like National People's Action and ACORN think traditional lending practices are discriminatory toward the poor and non-whites. Their solution is to simply lower standards and that'll pump up numbers in the short run and make everybody feel good, but in the long run it will devastate the very people it is meant to help. The same is true for affirmative action.[/QUOTE]
It's about making homes and jobs more accessible and if you want to assign some personal responsibility, you should also blame the banks for making those loans under less than honest methods. Either way, all you're harping about is how this one thing or that one thing isn't magically lifting long marginalized people out of poverty. Well no ing shit Sherlock...systemic problems aren't solved by half-assed measures that are constantly being sliced and diced into oblivion? Color me surprised!

[quote name='dmaul1114']It's not a jargon issue. It's a conceptual issue.

Hating someone for their race, hating someone for being foreign, hating someone for being an immigrant and so on are all different things. No jargon is needed to talk about these things.

It's as simple as realizing that telling someone that keeps saying "I'm Mexican" or "I'm insert whatever foreign country ethnic term" to move back there if it's so much better than the US doesn't have to involve any racial hate. Hell it doesn't have to even involve any ethnic hate. It can be as simple as being overly patriotic/jinogistic and thinking everyone that lives here should love the US, consider it their home and consider themselves Americans or they should leave.

Similarly, someone can just hate illegal immigrants and have no other racial or cultural bias. Hence Hispanics who immigrated legally and hate those who came illegally for jumping the line and giving them all a bad rap etc.

So it's not jargon and you don't have to use fancy five dollar academic words to keep these types of concepts separate, nor to talk about how they often intertwine (but not always) etc.

Talking about things more realistically has a lot more meaning and impact, even on a silly forum like this, than just crying "racism!" at every story like this. It's one example of something people on the left do that's nearly as annoying as those on the rights constant crying of "socialism!" Once that happens, any chance of arguing the nuances of the situation are gone as no one on the other side is going to listen to anything you have to say on the topic after that remark.[/QUOTE]
This is all well and good, but I at no point said that this teacher was RACIST! or racist, but that there's probably some shit going on underneath the surface. We can't separate this from the context and look at it in isolation. Like I also said before, intentionality is irrelevant when the result is the same. I'm a little miffed that after explaining this pretty thoroughly that you lump me in with those that cry SOCIALISM! and explain it with COMMIES! It's like you think I just say it for the of it.

OT: Shit this thread is moving faster than I can respond.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']
So who's history are we learning in "plain old studies?"[/QUOTE]

I don't know for sure, but it's not going to be designed primarily for one ethnic group, promote racial resentment or advocate racial solidarity because that would put it in violation of the law. If you want to teach stuff like La Raza or white nationalism at home, knock yourself out.

 

[Msut77]

spokker is a bit sick in the head.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']I don't know for sure, but it's not going to be designed primarily for one ethnic group, promote racial resentment or advocate racial solidarity because that would put it in violation of the law. If you want to teach stuff like La Raza or white nationalism at home, knock yourself out.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, curriculum is so chock full of Asian, black, native, latino, women, and queer contributions to the US that it would be redundant right? Herp. Derp. pr0n haul 2012!

I guess we shouldn't talk about slavery either because it'll make black people collectively loose their damn ing minds and start hating white people because

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='Spokker']No, an American citizen needs to know how our political and legal systems work on, at the very least, a basic level.

Economics is also very much overlooked at the high school level. There was only one semester of economics where I went to school.

I don't see why we need completely separate ethnic studies classes. I went to public school in California and there was no shortage of local history in which non-whites were the focus. I want real history, not a divisive curriculum filtered through the lens of La Raza and MEChA.[/QUOTE]

Why, they just need to know what laws to follow, they don't need to know the whole history of the United States. If they want to know more, they can go to their local library and learn on their own.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']
I guess we shouldn't talk about slavery either because it'll make black people collectively loose their damn ing minds and start hating white people because[/QUOTE]

We teach slavery but we don't teach reparations and read poems about taking down capitalism.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']No, an American citizen needs to know how our political and legal systems work on, at the very least, a basic level.

Economics is also very much overlooked at the high school level. There was only one semester of economics where I went to school.[/QUOTE]
Obviously it wasn't since you're a libertarian.

I don't see why we need completely separate ethnic studies classes. I went to public school in California and there was no shortage of local history in which non-whites were the focus. I want real history, not a divisive curriculum filtered through the lens of La Raza and MEChA.

The school you went to isn't typical of most schools in the country and eventhough I doubt your lack of shortage, you wouldn't know real history if Thomas Jefferson bent you over and raped you like he raped his slaves while writing the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']you wouldn't know real history if Thomas Jefferson bent you over and raped you like he raped his slaves while writing the Declaration of Independence.[/QUOTE]That's all well and good as long as it isn't the justification for why you get 10 extra credit points on your college application if you have the right skin color.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']We teach slavery but we don't teach reparations and read poems about taking down capitalism.[/QUOTE]
Yup. We enslaved them, kept them in vicious poverty for hundreds of years, but no, they don't deserve shit and if they want to be moving on up, they're on their ing own because we're equal now. Who cares if other people got ahead on their backs. Herpa. Derpa.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']Yup. We enslaved them, kept them in vicious poverty for hundreds of years, but no, they don't deserve shit and if they want to be moving on up, they're on their ing own because we're equal now. Who cares if other people got ahead on their backs.[/QUOTE]Correct. Government programs have already done more to destroy the black family than slavery has. Well-intentioned policies may not have created a permanent black underclass, but they insure that it continues.

 

[Msut77]

Does spokker think someone can use the phrase race traitor and not come off like a creepy wannabe nazi?

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']That's all well and good as long as it isn't the justification for why you get 10 extra credit points on your college application if you have the right skin color.[/QUOTE]
You must be talking about white people because East Asians tend to outscore white students on standardized testing. Are you going to tell me that colleges accept students on more than high scores too? I guess it's easy to bitch about the handful of black kids that get in compared to disproportionate legacy admits.

You're punching way above your weight class here buddy.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']Correct.[/QUOTE]
So what does being equal mean to you then?

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']You must be talking about white people because East Asians tend to outscore white students on standardized testing.[/quote]East Asians and Jews are overrepresented in institutions of higher learning. This must be corrected for the sake of equality.

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='Spokker']East Asians and Jews are overrepresented in institutions of higher learning. This must be corrected for the sake of equality.[/QUOTE]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/educat...sian-students-college-applications/51620236/1

It's already happening.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='docvinh']http://www.usatoday.com/news/educat...sian-students-college-applications/51620236/1

It's already happening.[/QUOTE]Now that's social justice.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']Correct. Government programs have already done more to destroy the black family than slavery has. Well-intentioned policies may not have created a permanent black underclass, but they insure that it continues.[/QUOTE]
Stealth edit huh? But you couldn't be more wrong. In an era where people were treated as less then chattel, you think that families were more cohesive back when they were sold off en masse and purposely separated from their families to prevent any kind of uprising? Is this the "real" history you're talking about?

[quote name='Spokker']Now that's social justice.[/QUOTE]
Yeah...it's ok for under-qualified white students to get in but those n****rs. AMIRITE? 884EVR

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']Stealth edit huh? But you couldn't be more wrong. In an era where people were treated as less then chattel, you think that families were more cohesive back when they were sold off en masse and purposely separated from their families to prevent any kind of uprising? Is this the "real" history you're talking about?[/QUOTE]
The black family is in shambles as fatherlessness continues to remain an epidemic and it has gotten worse over the years. In 1940 the illigitamacy rate among blacks was around 19 percent. In 1960 it was 22 percent and by 2005 it was 70 percent.

After the end of slavery, the black family made remarkable progress. Walter Williams explains in a 2005 column.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams060805.asp

A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia shows that three-quarters of black families were nuclear families, comprised of two parents and children. In New York City in 1925, 85 percent of kin-related black households had two parents.

He blames victimhood and I agree. The breakdown of the black family was not caused by a system of phantom racism and white nationalist boogeymen. It was well-intentioned policies that discouraged traditional family structures. Yes, people, including black people, respond to incentives.

[quote name='dohdough']
Yeah...it's ok for under-qualified white students to get in but those n****rs. AMIRITE? 884EVR[/QUOTE]
It's time to end preferential treatment for Asians in college admissions. All people are equal and there is no way that Asians can be so qualified to be disproportionately represented in school like that. It's not their work ethnic, strong cultural respect for education and intelligence, it's something more sinister going on in places like UC Berkeley's engineering department.

What we really need to go is take the blacks who are currently serving disproportionate prison sentences and give them admission to UCLA, and then throw the Asian students in prison. That would really be social justice.

 

[Msut77]

No one cares what Walter Williams thinks.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']The black family is in shambles as fatherlessness continues to remain an epidemic and it has gotten worse over the years. In 1940 the illigitamacy rate among blacks was around 19 percent. In 1960 it was 22 percent and by 2005 it was 70 percent.

After the end of slavery, the black family made remarkable progress. Walter Williams explains in a 2005 column.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams060805.asp



He blames victimhood and I agree. The breakdown of the black family was not caused by a system of phantom racism and white nationalist boogeymen. It was well-intentioned policies that discouraged traditional family structures. Yes, people, including black people, respond to incentives.[/QUOTE]
Yup. Just like how the GI Bill, FHA, and SS destroyed the white family unit. The was no white middle-class flight to the suburbs either because those 3 important programs never created a white middle-class. Instead, those programs went towards blacks to make up for slavery. Do I have that right?

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']Yup. Just like how the GI Bill, FHA, and SS destroyed the white family unit. The was no white middle-class flight to the suburbs either because those 3 important programs never created a white middle-class. Instead, those programs went towards blacks to make up for slavery. Do I have that right?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the FHA should start handing out reparations too. Your example is all the more reason why the government should get out of housing, social security and other programs entirely. Blacks would be the largest beneficiaries of modern libertarian and free market reforms if they were to be instituted.

But those injustices were still not enough to break up the black family the way it has been broken up today. Instead of saying, "You know, government isn't really working out and we have all these disparate policies and such," guilty progressives said, "We need even MORE government to correct government's injustices." It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you just leave families alone, they will prosper if they have the capability to do so.

 

[Soodmeg]

DD, I guess I dont understand what your end game is. What do you want? It seems like you are advocating the pacification of certain races. I cant change what happened during slavery, I cant change the how much my parents and grandparents were discriminated against but how does it help anyone to constantly live in the "woe is me and my race" realm. There is understanding of what happened and there is letting it control you. You seem to be of the point of letting it control every facet of your life.

I guess if you have nothing, its seems to me that it should be more important to spend your time looking forward on the things that you can control than looking backwards on things you cant. At some point you are going to have to get the over it and get on with your life. You have acknowledged that I came from the same hood these people do....so would you rather have more of me or more hoods walking around with their hands out with no hope of getting out of that cycle?

What I am saying is that the programs created are good and well intentioned but we need more emphasizes on using the programs as a tool for excelling and closing the gap than a handout that is deserved.

 

[Spokker]

Very well said, Soodmeg!

Since we are talking about education here, here's a related story.

http://m.startribune.com/news/?id=139557938&c=y

Here we have a teacher telling the school board like it is and getting nowhere.

St. Paul fifth-grade teacher Aaron Benner is fed up with administrators who are reluctant to suspend black students and who tell him to accept their behavior as cultural misunderstanding.

In a passionate speech to the board of education midway through the school year, Benner said it is not the responsibility of teachers, administrators or even board members to lower the suspension rate. That responsibility rests with parents and the community leaders who allow a disrespectful culture to fester, he said.

It's rare for individual teachers to speak against district policy and Benner, who is black, has been the lone public voice among his peers. He says frustration drove him: "It's a black problem and I want to help solve this."

The emotional and contentious issue of black student suspension has been debated for decades between St. Paul's black community and St. Paul school employees. Fifteen percent of the district's black students were suspended at least once last year -- five times more than white students.

School board members just throw more money at the problem.

The district has spent close to $2 million since 2009 to implement a Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports (PBIS) program, which requires administrators and teachers to regularly evaluate their school rules and determine which ones call for suspensions and which call for lesser punishments. They're also encouraged to be more explicit about what is expected of students in order to be successful at school. There are full-time behavior specialists and administrators who focus on the issue.

"You have to have the right attitude to fix a problem like this," said James Walker, a behavior specialist at Obama Elementary. "It doesn't work without the teachers on board."

The district also spent $350,000 in 2010 on cultural proficiency training that helps teachers and administrators recognize their racial biases.

While the rate of suspended black students steadily dropped between September 2006 and June 2010, it spiked during the past school year. (Note: This is on top of the practice of being reluctant to suspend black students, which is what the teacher was complaining about in the first place.)

It's not working. Get these problem students out of the classroom because they are ruining the education for all other students, including other black students.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']Yeah, the FHA should start handing out reparations too. Your example is all the more reason why the government should get out of housing, social security and other programs entirely. Blacks would be the largest beneficiaries of modern libertarian and free market reforms if they were to be instituted.

But those injustices were still not enough to break up the black family the way it has been broken up today. Instead of saying, "You know, government isn't really working out and we have all these disparate policies and such," guilty progressives said, "We need even MORE government to correct government's injustices." It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you just leave families alone, they will prosper if they have the capability to do so.[/QUOTE]
The effects of discrimination wasn't seen overnight? No ing shit. Do you think the suburbs just appeared out of thin air too? Of course not. The results of systematic racism we see today took decades to appear. And MORE help sure as hell helped the white suburban middle-class. How is it that affirmative action for white folks for hundreds of years is ok, but just a modicum of the SAME benefits towards black folk is enslaving them, breaking up their families, and making things worse? If you're going to half-ass social programs, of course the initiatives are going to ing fail. And when you cut them down some more, do you expect the opposite to happen?

[quote name='Soodmeg']DD, I guess I dont understand what your end game is. What do you want? It seems like you are advocating the pacification of certain races. I cant change what happened during slavery, I cant change the how much my parents and grandparents were discriminated against but how does it help anyone to constantly live in the "woe is me and my race" realm. There is understanding of what happened and there is letting it control you. You seem to be of the point of letting it control every facet of your life.[/QUOTE]
Let's say that I can snap my fingers and make racism go away in any form right this second. Would that change the economic status of the poor? Would all those broken families finally be reunited? Would the people that were wrongly imprisoned be let out? We're still connected to the past because what happened in the past still effects us Today. Wiping the slate clean only helps those in already privileged positions and does nothing for those that are barely living.

As for my goal, I want people to be treated equitably. But guess what, no one has any idea what that will look like. Know why? Because it has never ever existed. You might as well ask a blind person to compare hues of red.

I guess if you have nothing, its seems to me that it should be more important to spend your time looking forward on the things that you can control than looking backwards on things you cant. At some point you are going to have to get the over it and get on with your life. You have acknowledged that I came from the same hood these people do....so would you rather have more of me or more hoods walking around with their hands out with no hope of getting out of that cycle?

Cutting someone off and telling them to pull up their bootstraps is not a solution after you've taken their straps and about to mug them for their boots. Why do you expect people that have been shit on for generations to somehow be better or out-game those that were never in a shitty position to begin with? You might as well tell a paraplegic to "get over it" and start break dancing.

What I am saying is that the programs created are good and well intentioned but we need more emphasizes on using the programs as a tool for excelling and closing the gap than a handout that is deserved.

Hey, did you know that kids of middle-class black parents with household incomes of over $70k have SAT scores that are equivalent to kids of white families that make under $10k? How do you explain that?

[quote name='Spokker']Very well said, Soodmeg!

Since we are talking about education here, here's a related story.

http://m.startribune.com/news/?id=139557938&c=y

Here we have a teacher telling the school board like it is and getting nowhere.

School board members just throw more money at the problem.

It's not working. Get these problem students out of the classroom because they are ruining the education for all other students, including other black students.[/QUOTE]
Throwing money at schools doesn't help? No ing shit here too. Throwing money at schools doesn't magically give them a stable home that's food secure and safe. It's almost as if we have to address other problems that interfere with their ability to do well in school too! I wonder what those problems could be and how they were caused! If you want to blame the parents, you have to blame the ing system too.

It's also a well established fact that black kids are punished more harshly than white students for the same disciplinary issues.

Goddamn libertarians...I swear to ing Xenu.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']
It's also a well established fact that black kids are punished more harshly than white students for the same disciplinary issues.[/QUOTE]Schools are bending over backwards not to give the black students suspensions. Instead they are throwing money at the things you believe in, eradicating teachers of their secret racism, and not getting results.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']Schools are bending over backwards not to give the black students suspensions. Instead they are throwing money at the things you believe in, eradicating teachers of their secret racism, and not getting results.[/QUOTE]
Hey, did you know that kids of middle-class black parents with household incomes of over $70k have SAT scores that are equivalent to kids of white families that make under $10k? How do you explain that?

edit: Oh wow..lookitdat! http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...en-as-whites/2011/12/23/gIQA8WNQNP_story.html

 

[Spokker]

these posts

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']Hey, did you know that kids of middle-class black parents with household incomes of over $70k have SAT scores that are equivalent to kids of white families that make under $10k? How do you explain that? [/quote]It's also true for the kids of Asian families. Asian kids from families making less than 10k do better than blacks from families making 70k. Hispanics don't beat blacks until the 30-40k range.

I'm Hispanic but I scored in the Asian/40k household income range. *fist pump*

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Spokker']It's also true for the kids of Asian families. Asian kids from families making less than 10k do better than blacks from families making 70k. Hispanics don't beat blacks until the 30-40k range.[/quote]
Sure they do...and it doesn't make the results any less problematic.

I'm Hispanic but I scored in the Asian/40k household income range. *fist pump*

Uhhh...good for you?

 

[GBAstar]

[quote name='dohdough']Hey, did you know that kids of middle-class black parents with household incomes of over $70k have SAT scores that are equivalent to kids of white families that make under $10k? How do you explain that?

edit: Oh wow..lookitdat! http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...en-as-whites/2011/12/23/gIQA8WNQNP_story.html[/QUOTE]


Priorities?

But it's much more fun to blame it on everyone else although we all know that they (the man) designed the SAT's so that black students would not excel on them.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='GBAstar']Priorities?

But it's much more fun to blame it on everyone else although we all know that they (the man) designed the SAT's so that black students would not excel on them. [/QUOTE]
So a solidly middle-class black family somehow has lower educational priorities and expectations than a white family that earns less than $10k a year. In what universe does that make any sense that isn't racist?

Beyond the fact that standardized tests have all been guilty of cultural bias in numerous studies, what does that have to do with black children being disciplined more than white students?

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='GBAstar']Priorities?

But it's much more fun to blame it on everyone else although we all know that they (the man) designed the SAT's so that black students would not excel on them. [/QUOTE]

I'm a fan of standardized tests, but it's a well known fact that the SAT is not a great predictor of academic success, it's just the best one at the moment, so using SAT as a sole source of academic success is silly anyway.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='GBAstar']
But it's much more fun to blame it on everyone else although we all know that they (the man) designed the SAT's so that black students would not excel on them. [/QUOTE]
At lower incomes (10k-50k), Asian students do worse than white students on the reading section. I don't hear very much about this. I don't hear calls for investigations or intervention.

What happens is that a lot of these Asian students come with disadvantages. Perhaps English is a second language or something like that.

But these students still do better than black students in reading in the same and higher income brackets. Why? Because they are active on campus. They go to the reading center. They get help using resources that are already available. Their parents, who may not speak a lick of English, tell them that they have to do their best at English. There is a culture there that prizes hard work and education.

The black students are American-born. They have every advantage over these Asian students when it comes to English-language skills, but the culture that prizes education is not there. It is every bit the truth that black culture in the inner city despises academic excellence as a white trait. Speaking properly is also acting white. They don't stay and participate in after school programs and their parents are generally present in name only. The father is generally not in the picture.

It boggles the mind as to how the test could be designed to disenfranchise black students but not Asian students. The reading scores reflect actual English language skills.

Here's the classic example of bias:

RUNNER: MARATHON ::
A) envoy: embassy
B) martyr: massacre
C) oarsman: regatta
D) referee: tournament
E) horse: stable

Oh boo-hoo, I don't know what a regatta is. I never went to Yale. What these people miss is that you can eliminate the other answers by realizing that a runner trains for a marathon, and that an envoy doesn't train for an embassy and a martyr doesn't train for a massacre and so on. On your test you would cross out A, B, D and E with a pencil and you're left with the correct answer.

I never took an SAT prep class (edit: I never took a paid SAT prep class, I mean). My public school, which was 90% Hispanic/Latino at the time and is probably 99% Hispanic currently, spent tax payer money to offer FREE SAT prep classes (which I did take) to anyone who wanted them. This is real life. You just have to take advantage of these opportunities. But some people want to tell blacks that covert racism is to blame for their lot in life.

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='Spokker']At lower incomes (10k-50k), Asian students do worse than white students on the reading section. I don't hear very much about this. I don't hear calls for investigations or intervention.

What happens is that a lot of these Asian students come with disadvantages. Perhaps English is a second language or something like that.

But these students still do better than black students in reading in the same and higher income brackets. Why? Because they are active on campus. They go to the reading center. They get help using resources that are already available. Their parents, who may not speak a lick of English, tell them that they have to do their best at English. There is a culture there that prizes hard work and education.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I don't remember too many Asians going to the reading center. They do prize education more, sometimes to an insane extent. I know some people think this is great, but when you start seeing students commit suicide because they can't live up to their parents' inflated expectations, it's not so great anymore.

 

[Spokker]

Maybe it was just my school, but the Asian students, who weren't too numerous in the first place, were always involved in campus activities. My friend used to do all that shit even though he didn't feel like he needed to. He just felt as if he had to represent or something. The teachers and administrators felt he was a model student and pushed him to participate in a lot of things. Not that they were wrong about his academic abilities and talent. He ended up being a successful engineer.

 

[dohdough]

Holy ing Cthuhu...more stereotypes?

[quote name='Spokker']At lower incomes (10k-50k), Asian students do worse than white students on the reading section. I don't hear very much about this. I don't hear calls for investigations or intervention.

What happens is that a lot of these Asian students come with disadvantages. Perhaps English is a second language or something like that.

But these students still do better than black students in reading in the same and higher income brackets. Why? Because they are active on campus. They go to the reading center. They get help using resources that are already available. Their parents, who may not speak a lick of English, tell them that they have to do their best at English. There is a culture there that prizes hard work and education.[/quote]
Holy balls again. They go to a reading center...and they're from higher income brackets you say? And they don't speak a lick of ing english, yet they're making a decent amount of money? I can shoot down every single one of these ignorant-assed mentions, but goddamn it, the whole thing is a total failure of simple logic.

The black students are American-born. They have every advantage over these Asian students when it comes to English-language skills, but the culture that prizes education is not there. It is every bit the truth that black culture in the inner city despises academic excellence as a white trait. Speaking properly is also acting white. They don't stay and participate in after school programs and their parents are generally present in name only. The father is generally not in the picture.

Lemme guess. It's not that black people are dumb, lazy, and don't value education; it's black culture, so now, it's not racist.

FYI, Southeast Asian students tend to meet the same achievement gaps as black and Latino students. But I'm guessing you probably don't know anything about that.

It boggles the mind as to how the test could be designed to disenfranchise black students but not Asian students. The reading scores reflect actual English language skills.

Here's the classic example of bias:

Oh boo-hoo, I don't know what a regatta is. I never went to Yale. What these people miss is that you can eliminate the other answers by realizing that a runner trains for a marathon, and that an envoy doesn't train for an embassy and a martyr doesn't train for a massacre and so on. On your test you would cross out A, B, D and E with a pencil and you're left with the correct answer.

I never took an SAT prep class. My public school, which was 90% Hispanic/Latino at the time and is probably 99% Hispanic currently, spent tax payer money to offer FREE SAT prep classes to anyone who wanted them. This is real life. You just have to take advantage of these opportunities. But some people want to tell blacks that covert racism is to blame for their lot in life.

Please familiarize yourself with the Milgram Experiment and stereotype threat. Not to mention that a vast majority of low-tax base and urban schools don't have the resources for SAT prep classes OR the same type of resources a more affluent districts.

And while I have your attention, which one of your sources from the other thread was incorrect?

 

[nasum]

now don't go setting fire to anything for this, it honestly puzzles me.

If you're from a shitty part of town, why not try to make it better? Why all the demand for "programs" when blight removal has more to do with community involvement than anything else? It reminds of the "don't snitch" thing. Snitch. Snitch like a motherer because it helps to remove the problem. Historical situations driving people to X because of factor Y aside, there needs to be some work done within shitty communities to make them better.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']They go to a reading center...and they're from higher income brackets you say? And they don't speak a lick of ing english, yet they're making a decent amount of money?[/quote]No, I'm talking about Asians in the lower brackets. They still do a lot better than black students and they may have language difficulties. This is going to be a cohort that does better than their parents, and their children will do better than them, and so on.

FYI, Southeast Asian students tend to meet the same achievement gaps as black and Latino students. But I'm guessing you probably don't know anything about that.

Southeast Asian cohorts are more recent arrivals. That's probably going to change in the future just as it's going to change for Latinos. Each generation is going to do better than their parents. We continue to have a lot of poor people with little skills arriving, but their children and children's children are in a better position to succeed. Look at the Hispanic or Vietnamese enclaves, for example. They generally aren't as bad in terms of crime as the typical black city.

And the white-Latino gap is not as wide as the black-white gap. In the context of the SAT test, blacks continue to do a lot worse than people of Mexican, Puerto Rican and American Indian descent. This is why I'm not so down on things like the Dream Act. I don't support its passage out of principle but I hope it actually does some good if it does become law.

Hispanics lag in total educational attainment but, again, I think they will catch up because they do better in performance. I do fear that welfare dependence and fatherlessness is going to become an even more severe problem among Latinos, but all I can really do is speak out when I can.

Not to mention that a vast majority of low-tax base and urban schools don't have the resources for SAT prep classes OR the same type of resources a more affluent districts.

I didn't go to an affluent district, and some of the higher per pupil spending happens in largely black communities and schools. They might as well cut these people a voucher and let them go to a private school of their choosing because the public thing isn't working out.

 

[BigT]

[quote name='Spokker']At lower incomes (10k-50k), Asian students do worse than white students on the reading section. I don't hear very much about this. I don't hear calls for investigations or intervention.

What happens is that a lot of these Asian students come with disadvantages. Perhaps English is a second language or something like that.

But these students still do better than black students in reading in the same and higher income brackets. Why? Because they are active on campus. They go to the reading center. They get help using resources that are already available. Their parents, who may not speak a lick of English, tell them that they have to do their best at English. There is a culture there that prizes hard work and education.

The black students are American-born. They have every advantage over these Asian students when it comes to English-language skills, but the culture that prizes education is not there. It is every bit the truth that black culture in the inner city despises academic excellence as a white trait. Speaking properly is also acting white. They don't stay and participate in after school programs and their parents are generally present in name only. The father is generally not in the picture.

It boggles the mind as to how the test could be designed to disenfranchise black students but not Asian students. The reading scores reflect actual English language skills.

Here's the classic example of bias:

Oh boo-hoo, I don't know what a regatta is. I never went to Yale. What these people miss is that you can eliminate the other answers by realizing that a runner trains for a marathon, and that an envoy doesn't train for an embassy and a martyr doesn't train for a massacre and so on. On your test you would cross out A, B, D and E with a pencil and you're left with the correct answer.

I never took an SAT prep class. My public school, which was 90% Hispanic/Latino at the time and is probably 99% Hispanic currently, spent tax payer money to offer FREE SAT prep classes to anyone who wanted them. This is real life. You just have to take advantage of these opportunities. But some people want to tell blacks that covert racism is to blame for their lot in life.[/QUOTE]

Good post... it's nice to see that some people still are able to think clearly.

* The whole argument about the SAT being racist or culturally biased is silly. Does this also apply to the math section? Does 2+2 != 4 in some cultures? For the verbal section questions, we are testing standard English grammar, vocabulary, and logic. I guess that an argument can be made that people would be at a disadvantage if they are not exposed to this from childhood. But, then we would have to account for everything that happened to a person prior to taking the test, which is impossible. Plus, people can develop this knowledge with reading and practice. I immigrated to the US, started school unable to speak any English, but still did well on the SAT (>1500/1600 without any prep courses). The main point is that rather than bashing the tests, we need for people to have good role models and a strong internal desire to succeed.

* Arguing that a test is unfair is not a useful strategy. It is part of our current system and it would be difficult to change quickly... the best strategy would be to put in hard work and learn what is required for the test... there are plenty of relatively cheap resources and practice tests that can be used for this. I agree that the way we evaluate people through multiple choice tests is kind of silly... but I can't think of a less biased system that is feasible to implement on a large scale... plus the tests don't stop coming... so it's good practice: GRE/MCAT/LSAT/USMLE steps 1-3 licensing exams, etc.

*I'm not sure why dohdough is bringing up the Milgram experiment... isn't that mainly about obedience and conformity? I am not that familiar with the literature on stereotype threat, but it seems like a relatively minor factor that would likely have quite a bit of variability between people of different temperaments.

 

[Spokker]

Using the SAT test as a sole predictor of college performance is silly, but it does have some predictive power. When you combine it with high school GPA, background, goals and a proxy for ability, what else is there?

There is something to be said, however, for beating what is expected of you. My prospects were not so great. From a purely statistical standpoint, I probably should not have achieved as much as I have.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='nasum']now don't go setting fire to anything for this, it honestly puzzles me.

If you're from a shitty part of town, why not try to make it better? Why all the demand for "programs" when blight removal has more to do with community involvement than anything else? It reminds of the "don't snitch" thing. Snitch. Snitch like a motherer because it helps to remove the problem. Historical situations driving people to X because of factor Y aside, there needs to be some work done within shitty communities to make them better.[/QUOTE]
Of course there needs to be work done. The question is what kinds of resources will be given to the community to make it better? Giving schools more money doesn't help matters outside of school. Investing in locally owned businesses will only enrich a few and take resources back outside the community. Having higher wages doesn't do anything if the schools and housing is falling apart and thus removes resources again. Improving housing doesn't solve the above either and if you don't have a long-term plan to keep the current residents in the community, you'll just have gentrification which starts the entire cycle all over again somewhere else and happens all too often.

The problem with snitching is also multifaceted. Snitching doesn't actually solve the issue of preventing crime, but just stops that particular person from committing that particular crime. If they were a drug dealer that got locked up, there'll just be another one to take their place. You also have the original offender going off to jail/prison, who will eventually be released. Last time I checked, people aren't sent to prison to be rehabilitated, so they aren't exactly coming out better people.

What it really comes down to is that the people that have the power and resources to do something don't really give shit about those communities. No amount of bootstrapping by local residents will help because those communities don't have the resources to make systemic changes even within their own communities to begin with.

[quote name='Spokker']No, I'm talking about Asians in the lower brackets. They still do a lot better than black students and they may have language difficulties. This is going to be a cohort that does better than their parents, and their children will do better than them, and so on.[/QUOTE]
Teachers treat white, black, Asian, and Latino kids differently just as racism effects them differently. And shit, with socio-economic mobility the way it is, that's a pretty bold statement to say that they'll do better than their parents.

Either way, you still don't explain how it works at the higher income bracket beyond some bullshit like "culture."

Southeast Asian cohorts are more recent arrivals. That's probably going to change in the future just as it's going to change for Latinos. Each generation is going to do better than their parents. We continue to have a lot of poor people with little skills arriving, but their children and children's children are in a better position to succeed. Look at the Hispanic or Vietnamese enclaves, for example. They generally aren't as bad in terms of crime as the typical black city.

That's nice of you to think that about ethnic enclaves, but what the does that have to do with "culture."

And the white-Latino gap is not as wide as the black-white gap. In the context of the SAT test, blacks continue to do a lot worse than people of Mexican, Puerto Rican and American Indian descent. This is why I'm not so down on things like the Dream Act. I don't support its passage out of principle but I hope it actually does some good if it does become law.

principles. They're a crutch for ideologues. Why are you avoiding talk about "culture?"

Hispanics lag in total educational attainment but, again, I think they will catch up because they do better in performance. I do fear that welfare dependence and fatherlessness is going to become an even more severe problem among Latinos, but all I can really do is speak out when I can.

Hispanics or Latinos? You're starting to use them interchangeably and it's starting to bug me because I know the difference.

I didn't go to an affluent district, and some of the higher per pupil spending happens in largely black communities and schools. They might as well cut these people a voucher and let them go to a private school of their choosing because the public thing isn't working out.

Good thing I didn't say you went to an affluent district and if public schools are failing, why is that?

I'd still rather beat you up over your use of "culture" though, so feel free to address that first, but I know you won't because you know there's no way to discuss it without you sounding like a white supremacist.

 

[davo1224]

She told some kid who repeatedly said, "I'm Mexican" to go back to Mexico, and the problem is?

It's the equivalent of saying "I'll give you [insert word]" when a kid keeps asking about it over and over.

He didn't say "I read/need Spanish" over and over, only for her to say "Well then go back to Mexico".


And I'm all about equality and engrained bigotry but dohdough is ing annoying in this thread. You know what's also socially engrained and acceptable bigotry? The fact that there are numerous rap records out there where $$$$$$ is still on the edited version. Nice to know that while "the man" is holding Young Jeezy down (despite the fact that he is better off than a lot of Americans), he can continue to belittle another minority and not see the ing irony.

As far as Spokker's post, he shut you the down and you call his post full of stereotypes? Aside from his anecdotes, he is pulling from hard data. My mother came to this country as a non-English speaking factory worker and became a single mom. I graduated with a degree in English. I have friends from all different backgrounds who did wonderful things in life? How? Because they tried at something. It doesn't matter if they're running a company's online division or running a food truck in the hood, they succeeded because they valued success over dumb shit like sneakers. The common thread amongst my successful friends was that they took any opportunity given to them, even if it was only one, while others got hundreds. I have a friend who is a white female who smokes a ton of pot and is unemployed. She lives in an affluent neighborhood. She's been given every opportunity possible and chose to pass all of them over to get high and do nothing at 30, whilst living with her parents.

You're right in that no matter how many programs and funding is given to inner cities, there will always be a problem. That's how the world is and that's how people make it. It's not a black thing.

 

[Spokker]

[quote name='dohdough']
I'd still rather beat you up over your use of "culture" though, so feel free to address that first, but I know you won't because you know there's no way to discuss it without you sounding like a white supremacist.[/QUOTE]

If anything, I am a Jewish and Asian-American supremacist Whites are not the top performers in America and have not been for a long time.

Speaking of mobility, it's probably going to be the offspring of white Baby Boomers that do worse than their parents. They are already complaining about it. Recent immigrant groups have room for growth, especially if the Dream Act passes. But hey, that's just my optimism. I think they will see more growth than blacks.

I think this is a good essay on the black vs. Hispanic dynamic that has and will play out in America: http://www.fredoneverything.net/HispanicsBlacks.shtml

It's well-written and very, very controversial, but these conflicts are already playing out in places like South Los Angeles. It's a very real issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SNBUe52zYc

That's the gang angle. The latter part of this video has more about the political struggles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX7gna122HA

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='Spokker']Using the SAT test as a sole predictor of college performance is silly, but it does have some predictive power. When you combine it with high school GPA, background, goals and a proxy for ability, what else is there?

There is something to be said, however, for beating what is expected of you. My prospects were not so great. From a purely statistical standpoint, I probably should not have achieved as much as I have.[/QUOTE]

There should be a better test. Grades by itself is a better predictor, which says something about the SAT. I'm not saying that we shouldn't use standardized tests at all, but we need to improve on the test a bit, or create a new test entirely.

 

[Soodmeg]

Hey guys just for my own curiosity, how many blacks from the inner city are currently in this discussion? Other than me.

I have no point to the questions, just wanted to know.


Anyway, like I said before I just dont get want DD end game is although I am trying to understand. Do you know who sunni and shiite's are? Do you understand that they try to ethical cleanse each other every couple years? I just dont see how an American born ___(insert race here) can bitch so hard about things. At the very least its not normal for someone to walk into your hut and machete you in the face. Mexico? The cartel is shooting people in the street for shits sake.

Ooohh noes the man followed me around in the store...I can never excel I guess the only thing I can do is sell drugs on the corner and collect welfare.

When I go outside I might get hassled but at least I am not getting dogs sicked on me like my father did when he was coming up.

I 100 percent agree that the programs we have now are needed though. There is still a large gap that was created back in those times again both minorities AND white women (they seem to always get lost in the shuffle in these discussions, they had very harsh restrictions set on them also) I think the mindset has to different. Use the tools to close the gap but dont use them as a crutch.

Now that doesnt mean I like the fact that many upper middle class whites seem to think there should be no programs whatsoever. I mean you cant screw over several races for that many years and then wash your hands of it. So I understand what DD is saying there.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='davo1224']She told some kid who repeatedly said, "I'm Mexican" to go back to Mexico, and the problem is?

It's the equivalent of saying "I'll give you [insert word]" when a kid keeps asking about it over and over.

He didn't say "I read/need Spanish" over and over, only for her to say "Well then go back to Mexico".


And I'm all about equality and engrained bigotry but dohdough is ing annoying in this thread. You know what's also socially engrained and acceptable bigotry? The fact that there are numerous rap records out there where $$$$$$ is still on the edited version. Nice to know that while "the man" is holding Young Jeezy down (despite the fact that he is better off than a lot of Americans), he can continue to belittle another minority and not see the ing irony.[/QUOTE]
Black people calling each other n***as doesn't cause the racial achievement gap OR bigotry; systemic generational discrimination DOES. Competition between people of color is nothing new either. Instead of focusing on intra-racial conflict, you'd be better served to look at who benefits from it...and I'm not talking about people like Young Jeezy.

As far as Spokker's post, he shut you the down and you call his post full of stereotypes? Aside from his anecdotes, he is pulling from hard data. My mother came to this country as a non-English speaking factory worker and became a single mom. I graduated with a degree in English. I have friends from all different backgrounds who did wonderful things in life? How? Because they tried at something. It doesn't matter if they're running a company's online division or running a food truck in the hood, they succeeded because they valued success over dumb shit like sneakers. The common thread amongst my successful friends was that they took any opportunity given to them, even if it was only one, while others got hundreds. I have a friend who is a white female who smokes a ton of pot and is unemployed. She lives in an affluent neighborhood. She's been given every opportunity possible and chose to pass all of them over to get high and do nothing at 30, whilst living with her parents.

Pulling data and interpreting them are two different things, but it's nice to know that both your anecdotes prove that some people make it and most people don't because they're lazy.

You're right in that no matter how many programs and funding is given to inner cities, there will always be a problem. That's how the world is and that's how people make it. It's not a black thing.

You misunderstood what I said. I meant that programs are half-assed and not given the resources to be truly effective.

[quote name='Spokker']If anything, I am a Jewish and Asian-American supremacist Whites are not the top performers in America and have not been for a long time.

Speaking of mobility, it's probably going to be the offspring of white Baby Boomers that do worse than their parents. They are already complaining about it. Recent immigrant groups have room for growth, especially if the Dream Act passes. But hey, that's just my optimism. I think they will see more growth than blacks.

I think this is a good essay on the black vs. Hispanic dynamic that has and will play out in America: http://www.fredoneverything.net/HispanicsBlacks.shtml

It's well-written and very, very controversial, but these conflicts are already playing out in places like South Los Angeles. It's a very real issue.[/QUOTE]
Well-written my ass. It's a racist screed that's a variation on the Model Minority stereotype. Latinos experience discrimination differently from black people and have a different history in the US. Like I said above, this is nothing new.

[quote name='Soodmeg']Hey guys just for my own curiosity, how many blacks from the inner city are currently in this discussion? Other than me.

I have no point to the questions, just wanted to know.[/QUOTE]
Even if your point was to say that all we are is a bunch of privileged s that never had to live through what you did, so we shouldn't have shit to say about it, it'd be a valid one that I would agree with to a certain extent. And to be honest, it's something that I've struggled with for a long time, but when you see prejudice, discrimination, or racism, you just gotta confront it. I won't allow silence to be interpreted as tacit approval.

Anyway, like I said before I just dont get want DD end game is although I am trying to understand. Do you know who sunni and shiite's are? Do you understand that they try to ethical cleanse each other every couple years? I just dont see how an American born ___(insert race here) can bitch so hard about things. At the very least its not normal for someone to walk into your hut and machete you in the face. Mexico? The cartel is shooting people in the street for shits sake.

We don't live in Iraq and we don't live in Mexico. We can bitch about these things because they effect us. Should we not complain about minimum wage being too low because people in China literally work themselves to death for less? Should black people have not complained about anything because of apartheid in South Africa? I'm not fighting for people that make $200k a year that bitch about not being able to buy a boat or go on a 2 week long European vacation with a family of four or not being as rich as their boss.

Ooohh noes the man followed me around in the store...I can never excel I guess the only thing I can do is sell drugs on the corner and collect welfare.

C'mon...you know better than that.

When I go outside I might get hassled but at least I am not getting dogs sicked on me like my father did when he was coming up.

Of course not. And hopefully your kids won't have to deal with all the racist bullshit you had to go through either, but it doesn't mean racism won't manifest itself differently for them.

I 100 percent agree that the programs we have now are needed though. There is still a large gap that was created back in those times again both minorities AND white women (they seem to always get lost in the shuffle in these discussions, they had very harsh restrictions set on them also) I think the mindset has to different. Use the tools to close the gap but dont use them as a crutch.

Ironically enough, white women are actually the greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action as they saw the highest gains. Funny how that works.

Maybe you should go deeper into tools and crutches.

Now that doesnt mean I like the fact that many upper middle class whites seem to think there should be no programs whatsoever. I mean you cant screw over several races for that many years and then wash your hands of it. So I understand what DD is saying there.

Exactly.

 

[dmaul1114]

[quote name='dohdough']And to be honest, it's something that I've struggled with for a long time, but when you see prejudice, discrimination, or racism, you just gotta confront it. I won't allow silence to be interpreted as tacit approval.
[/QUOTE]

Just curious, do you do this in real life? You talk about activism, so I just wondered if you do anything on this front in the real world. If so, great. If not, you should as you're very passionate about it and are well informed on the issues (even if I don't always agree with your views), and hopefully you do more with that than argue with game nerds on CAG!

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='dmaul1114']Just curious, do you do this in real life? You talk about activism, so I just wondered if you do anything on this front in the real world. If so, great. If not, you should as you're very passionate about it and are well informed on the issues (even if I don't always agree with your views), and hopefully you do more with that than argue with game nerds on CAG! [/QUOTE]
Haha...thanks, but my philosophy on activism is that it has to take place in the spaces you inhabit whether its friends, family, on the street, fast food restaurant, or an internet forum devoted to getting cheap videogames.

But yeah, I keep myself in the mix IRL.:lol: