The 2008 MLB Season Thread (Update: Phillies Won)

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[quote name='kill3r7']I'm sorry, do you have any stats to back that up your opinion because simply shooting off the hip doesn't make something true. You would have a hard time finding a better catcher in baseball than Pudge, over the past 15 years. He's won everywhere he's been. Here are his fielding stats:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2523&context=fielding[/QUOTE]
And fielding stats represent what part of pitch selection again? A lot of pitchers don't like throwing to him. He likes to call for pitches that are easy for him to catch and throw to 2nd when there are runners on, with little regard for the batter. He's the opposite of a guy like Jason Varitek, who doesn't garner attention but calls a great game.
 
[quote name='Chitown021']I know when Farnsworth was with the Cubs he would struggle at times getting his off speed pitches over for a strike. Hitters would then just sit on fastball and tee off.

EDIT: Sounds like trade talks might be heating up between the Marlin and Red Sox for Manny. The big question is do the Marlins deserve a player like him? If not what teams do? :lol:[/quote]

Sadly, SportCenter highlights (and to a lesser extent bloopers) don't do Manny's incredible talent justice. He is an absolutely brilliant hitter. He sets up pitchers the way they set up hitters. I won't get into his defense (we know it ain't good, lol)

Some of his antics have been overblown. The hustle angle is ridiculous. Half the players in the league dog it down to first base. It's a league wide problem.

OTOH, he SHOULD have been suspended for shoving the traveling secretary.
 
Would the Marlins give a 36 year old an $100 million plus contract?

Is a very young and very talented corner outfielder like Hermida worth a rental like Manny when who knows if the Marlins are even going to make the playoffs and if they do how far can their starting pitching take them?
 
As for Manny... The Sox have to put everything aside and make the best baseball decision. What they get back in a trade has to outweigh Manny's performance down the stretch and in the playoffs, and outweigh the two 1st round draft picks they'd get for not picking up the option.

No hard feelings and no sentimentality. Just do whats best for the team and thats that. Its going to be very hard to make a trade that replaces the value they get just by keeping him.
 
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The big key is do the Sox want the distraction of Manny being an asshole to destroy the team down the stretch?

And I think the real winner in this trade will be the Pirates. They get 3 specs and Hermida. But I guess it depends on who the specs are. Thats also what has me thinking that this is a bad trade for the Sox, depending on the specs they move. They are trading Manny and specs to upgrade, that doesn't seem right, but it may be worth getting ready of Manny and the headaches he has caused this season.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']And fielding stats represent what part of pitch selection again? A lot of pitchers don't like throwing to him. He likes to call for pitches that are easy for him to catch and throw to 2nd when there are runners on, with little regard for the batter. He's the opposite of a guy like Jason Varitek, who doesn't garner attention but calls a great game.[/QUOTE]

Varitek is not even in the conversation... Dude, Pudge is Johnny Bench good. Varitek isn't even as good as Mike Piazza. And how the hell do you know that he calls pitches that are easy for him to catch and throw to 2nd. Most scouts and baseball people who are worth their salt would tell you, that Pudge was/is one of the best catchers in baseball and by far the best catcher of last 15 years.
 
[quote name='kill3r7']Varitek is not even in the conversation... Dude, Pudge is Johnny Bench good. Varitek isn't even as good as Mike Piazza. And how the hell do you know that he calls pitches that are easy for him to catch and throw to 2nd. Most scouts and baseball people who are worth their salt would tell you, that Pudge was/is one of the best catchers in baseball and by far the best catcher of last 15 years.[/QUOTE]
I didn't claim that Varitek was a great defensive catcher, but he works with pitchers well and calls a great game, something Pudge was never known for.

Its sexy, but there is more to defense than throwing to 2nd base. He has long had a reputation for being preoccupied with the running game and showing off his arm to the detriment of his pitching staff. You could count on seeing lots of fastballs with men on, and sit on a fastball in a running count. Its for this reason that you'll probably see Molina catch Mussina.

He's clearly on the downside now anyway.
 
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Brewers swept the Cards, and hopefully, Cubs will be sweeping the Brewers tomorrow.

Love this after seeing that 7 game win-streak, or whatever it was.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']I didn't claim that Varitek was a great defensive catcher, but he works with pitchers well and calls a great game, something Pudge was never known for.

Its sexy, but there is more to defense than throwing to 2nd base. He has long had a reputation for being preoccupied with the running game and showing off his arm to the detriment of his pitching staff. You could count on seeing lots of fastballs with men on, and sit on a fastball in a running count. Its for this reason that you'll probably see Molina catch Mussina.

He's clearly on the downside now anyway.[/QUOTE]

My argument was not that Pudge is a good defensive catcher because of his throwing ability, but rather because he has a high fielding %, great CERA, and on top of that a rocket for an arm. Also, last time I checked most major league catchers call for mostly fastballs when there are men on base. Case and point, last night Sherill threw 7 straight fastballs to Giambi in the bottom of the 9th with two men on base, or last year when A-Rod touched up Papelbon he threw heat the entire time.

Pudge knows how to catch, he excelled with Texas, the Marlins and Detroit. As a Yankee fan I'm glad we got him.
 
[quote name='ph33r m3']I didn't even mention the Giants....but anywhoo i'm not claiming the Giants have great young pitchers...they do have one aka Teh Franchise/Lincecum....if you don't think the guys one of the top 5 pitchers in the game...you're crazy.

I totally agree that management is key.....Billy Beane is the best GM and it's not even close......but since the ownership doesn't want to spend money....Duscherer will be gone after the year....it's basically a rinse...wash...dry repeat.

In the late 90's/Early 00's they had Chavez, Tejada, Zito, Mulder, Hudson, Giambi....very good team....all of them in the PRIME of there careers...Zito/Mulder/Hudson was one of the best 1-3 i've ever seen...rivals Smoltz/Maddux/Glavine....they had a 3-5 of Giambi/Tejada/Chavez....had they had the money (or ownership who wants to spend money) and been able to re-sign Giambi/Tejada they wouldn't have won a WS? Granted they made some great trades with Mulder/Hudson....but that's what they HAVE to do...

Do you think the Yanks/Sox/Cubs/Dodgers/Mariners (top spending teams right now) would ever let these guys walk away? Hell no.[/quote]

Billy Beane is overrated.. yeah they had great talent..but if he was so great the A's would have won a WS or 2.. his methods might get you to the playoffs but it doesn't get you any farther...the marlins won with less..
 
[quote name='DJSteel']Billy Beane is overrated.. yeah they had great talent..but if he was so great the A's would have won a WS or 2.. his methods might get you to the playoffs but it doesn't get you any farther...the marlins won with less..[/QUOTE]

Have you read Moneyball? His system worked fine, it was really a statistical oddity that they lost those games.
 
really?? because what I saw was a team chalk full of talent couldn't even get to the LCS and they took advantage of a bad division at the time..
 
Ya, if you look at their statistics for the games, they scored more runs than their season average, but their pitching staff (namely the big 3, Bradford, and Foulke (I think at the time)) had an ERA of like 7 or 8 compared to like a 3 during the season. It was basically a series of poor pitching performances that lost them the series.
 
Moneyball only works if you are lucky with your draft picks.. i'd love to see Moneyball fail in Pittsburgh.. because it won't work here...
 
[quote name='Rig']Brewers swept the Cards, and hopefully, Cubs will be sweeping the Brewers tomorrow.

Love this after seeing that 7 game win-streak, or whatever it was.[/quote]

Hell yeah! As hot as the Brewers were coming in and as poorly as the Cubs had been playing especially on the road I was hoping we'd just split this series. To have a shot at the sweep with Harden taking the mound tonight is awesome! I just hope we're able to score a few runs for the guy. It's sick that he has a 1.00 ERA with 30 K's in his first 3 starts and has an 0-1 record to show for it.
 
[quote name='DJSteel']Moneyball only works if you are lucky with your draft picks.. i'd love to see Moneyball fail in Pittsburgh.. because it won't work here...[/QUOTE]

I think that Moneyball argues that luck has nothing to do with it, it's all stat-based.
 
The Palm Beach Post says a tentative agreement has been reached, despite Gammons' comments. Here's the deal:Marlins get: Manny Ramirez, cash, prospect from Red Sox
Red Sox get: Jason Bay, John Grabow
Pirates get: Ryan Tucker, Jeremy Hermida, one prospect from Red Sox, perhaps another prospect from Marlins
 
[quote name='nyprimus4']The Palm Beach Post says a tentative agreement has been reached, despite Gammons' comments. Here's the deal:Marlins get: Manny Ramirez, cash, prospect from Red Sox
Red Sox get: Jason Bay, John Grabow
Pirates get: Ryan Tucker, Jeremy Hermida, one prospect from Red Sox, perhaps another prospect from Marlins[/QUOTE]

:whee:
 
[quote name='lordwow']I think that Moneyball argues that luck has nothing to do with it, it's all stat-based.[/quote]


stat based huh..I don't think that works...
 
[quote name='nyprimus4']The Palm Beach Post says a tentative agreement has been reached, despite Gammons' comments. Here's the deal:Marlins get: Manny Ramirez, cash, prospect from Red Sox
Red Sox get: Jason Bay, John Grabow
Pirates get: Ryan Tucker, Jeremy Hermida, one prospect from Red Sox, perhaps another prospect from Marlins[/quote]


:bomb:

we've officially become a AAA franchise...
 
Here's the latest on the Manny Ramirez-Jason Bay-Jeremy Hermida three-way deal talks. At this time, the AP is saying there is no tentative agreement between the Red Sox, Pirates, and Marlins.

From out of nowhere, the White Sox have acquired Ken Griffey Jr. Ken Rosenthal says the deal awaits Junior's approval. The fit is unclear, as the Sox have Carlos Quentin and Jermaine Dye in the corners and Jim Thome at DH. Perhaps they'll try Griffey at first base?
 
a couple people have posted that the redsox would also be sending prospect in the trade. I have not seen that anywhere on the major sites ie espn,yahoo or the local talk radio station. I don't understand why the sox would need to do that. Not only are they trading manny, but they are paying his contract. For a team in contention that should be a good 3 - 4 players. Hermedia and 3 prospects to the pirates should be enough for turnbow and bay considering the trade they made with the yanks recently.

IMO it is mandatory for the sox to move him now. If he remains on the team, they will not make the playoffs and become a distant 3rd place team. He has pissed off the ownership (who used to love him), pissed off theo, pissed of francona and pissed of his teamates. He is a selfish duche and not only will he tank it at times the rest of the way, the sox will continue to spiral downward with him in the clubhouse. Not even his friends on the team (cora, lowell, big pappi) are coming to his rescue like they have in the past.

As for the pudge discussion. Yes I think he is a solid defensive catcher. He does have a rocket of an arm but no he doesn't call a good game. No it won't show up anywhere in the stat sheets, but the fact that his own pitching staff was sick of him should be enough of a reason to believe he didn't know how to call a game. The fact that he has played with several teams over his career and he hits like he does should also point to the fact that he must do something wrong to not be kept. Freaking brandon inge is wanted by both the tigers manager and the tigers pitching staff to call the game then pudge. That should send up a red flag for you.

Whoever compared jason varitek to piazza is a fucking idiot. He is one of the best playcalling catchers in the game. He only got voted onto the allstar game this year, by other mlb players because with his stats he didn't deserve it and if francona had a say in it, he would have taken lowell over varitek. Curt schilling is know to be one of the most well researched pitchers in the game. He jots down notes every inning, he had a plan of attacking hitters. He always called his own game. After coming to boston and pitching one minor league game, he let varitek call the game. Does varitek have the best arm, no it is avg. He doesn't let many balls get by him, his throwing accuracy is avg. A lot of the sb throughout his career in boston has had a lot to do with how slow some of the pitchers are to the plate. I don't care who is catching, when the runner has an extra 2 - 3 steps because of the slow movement to the plate, it is damm near impossible to get them.
 
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maybe so maybe not, but we are giving up the best player by far in the deal. In a report on jason starks blog, the marlins are the ones getting turnbow or whatever his name is (lefty reliver)

I guess the current issue is the pirates want more from florida. Florida doesn't want to give up more, and wants the sox to add into the mix. I don't know what the marlins front office is smoking, but I would like some. If you get a lefty reliver, and manny ramirez for 3 - 4 prospects how in the hell could you say no. You current roster is stacked with young kids, so most of those prospects won't play in florida. You are getting a big bat and bullpen help out in the deal and at the end of the year you let manny walk and get 2 sandwich picks from the first/2nd round. So in theory you get 2 very young prospects, manny and a lefty for 3 - 4 mid/top level prospects. Florida please pass the duchie to the left hand side
 
jason bay has been having a solid year before you really couldn't count on him to come up big, but this year his becoming more and more clutch
 
I not complaining about getting bay...i am complaining that the marlins would be making out like bandits in the deal...toss in the prospects necessary to get the deal done...
 
Deal is dead according to Gammons. Here's what the stipulations were to the post above (940)

The Marlins wanted $9M, $7M to pay Manny and $2M to spend
The Pirates wanted 2 prospects, one of which was more likely than not Clay Buckholtz.

Thus the Bosox would give up: Manny, Buckholtz, a prospect and $9M for Bay and Grabow
 
as steep as a price that is, if they want to contend this year they have to do it...and the fucking marlins really should step up and add some of there prospects...

I never have been a big fan of buckholtz...he is really thin and I don't like tall lanky guys that throw hard, as I fear for there long term health. That and the fact he has stunk up the place this year would let me trade him. He is still very young, but he like craig hanson are in the AAAA limbo. They dominate aaa players, but suck as in the mlb level.
 
Yeah, just heard that the Manny deal is officially dead.

The Griffey trade is rather confusing to me. The White Sox are pretty much set in the outfield, shouldn't their main concern be pitching right now? Don't get me wrong, what the Sox gave up for him is practically a steal. But there's more to be worried about besides the offense.

Keepin' an eye on my Cubbies, the rumor going around is that the Yankees and the Red Sox are looking at Scott Eyre. Don't particularly know what'll come from that, I'm kinda iffy on the Cubs trading him to begin with.
 
swisher can play 1b and griffey can play cf...paul konerko has been sucking ass all season.

Also the whitesox are looking to shore up the bullpen as they are in talks for huson street...he would setup jenks...as liderbrink is recovering from his DL stint


as for deals being dead, you never know..still 2 hours left...
 
[quote name='ryanbph']Also the whitesox are looking to shore up the bullpen as they are in talks for huson street...he would setup jenks...as liderbrink is recovering from his DL stint[/quote]

To what I've been hearing on ESPN, the A's are saying that Huston Street isn't going anywhere.
 
anything is possible...as the deadline nears, those poker faces will drop as teams needing shit will be more desperate..

For the redsox it is a tough situation..they need to drop him imo or they are done for the season...but you can tank this season, let some younger players get more playing time and take the 2 draft picks in the offseason...
 
The mets are prepared to be stagnant at the deadline which is understandable since we have no prospects left to deal at all. Although i would like to see ibanez...but i heard the mariniers hated the mets proposal and we are out of the ibanez sweepstakes.

As for the manny deal...I think it too should get done. The way he is acting, he will tank the rest of the season for them. Might as well try and get some good players out of him. how deep are the sox' farm? would giving up bucholz hurt their farm?
 
very deep...for next season they will have buckholtz, masterson (who had 9 quality starts this season at the mlb level) and bowden competing for 1 or 2 spots...they have another 2 - 3 pitchers in single A that are equally as talented...they have a ton of pitchers in AA/AAA that with other ballclubs might be on the MLB roster. They are also loaded with bullpen pitchers in the minors...

IMO, losing buckholtz isn't the issue...it is the fact of the matter that we only get bay and the lefty reliver for manny, buckholtz, 1 - 2 other prospects and $9million. It will set a bad precendent for future trades. The flip side, it will set a precedent to the young players who have seen manny act like a duche and realize that it is unacceptable to act like that in boston
 
Finally, the Sox do something good at the trade deadline! Griffey's nowhere near what he used to be, but he's still solid and the Sox barely gave up anything (Nick Masset and Danny Richar) for him!
 
[quote name='Matt Young']Finally, the Sox do something good at the trade deadline! Griffey's nowhere near what he used to be, but he's still solid and the Sox barely gave up anything (Nick Masset and Danny Richar) for him![/quote]

Ken Griffey Jr. is a 4th outfielder on most contending teams. A 4th outfielder who can no longer play center.



Ryan, it's Buchholz, and the Marlins are greedy. An additional $2 Million? I can see the $7M to offset Manny's contract. Theo should have told them to spend their revenue sharing money before crying poor again.
 
Sox get Jason Bay

Dodgers get Manny Ramirez

Pirates get Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, Andy LaRoche, Bryan Morris (P, Dodgers 1st round pick in 06)


The Sox gave up Manny, Moss, and Hansen, AND pay Manny's salary, and all they got back was Jason Bay? Terrible deal. Jason Bay isn't that good.
 
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Horrible trade for the Sox. They should have gotten a prospect in addition to Bay, he's no Manny Ramirez. Especially if they're paying Manny's damn salary too.
 
And how bad do the Marlins look... They killed the original deal when they wanted Manny's salary and MORE money on top of that.
 
Ya, now all it boiled down to for the first deal was $2M, since it was the same exact deal for the sox, except they'd have got another reliever.
 
[quote name='lordwow']Ya, now all it boiled down to for the first deal was $2M, since it was the same exact deal for the sox, except they'd have got another reliever.[/quote]

And they should've thrown in the money for that deal. Grabow would probably have been more useful than the 2 mil
 
Its preposterous that they'd ask for the extra $2 million for Loria's back pocket. They're getting $30 million from revenue sharing, they're getting the national TV money, MLB.com money, and merchandising money, which are split equally between all 30 teams, and they're getting whatever little they're paid for local TV and radio rights, and their gate.

Preposterous. The Marlins wanted the money, and Grabow.
 
Ya, the Marlins ownership were looking for a bonus paycheck. And they weren't willing to give up another prospect to get it.
 
Don't forget new stadium deal in the works.

But seriously, Sox didn't get at least another prospect?

I don't mind losing Hansen, but Moss going kinda sucks.
 
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