The Auto Industry Bailout Thread

[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, we've had discussions on this here several times. Electric cars will probably never appeal to me due to the limited ranges. Especially these early one's with such small ranges.

I like the peace of mind of being able to drive however far I want and knowing there's tons of gas stations along the way to refuel. Electric cars/quick charging/battery swapping etc. is a long way from offering the same kind of convenience/accessibility if they ever get there.

Now decent plug in hybrids I'd be interested in for sure. Could use no gas on my commute to and from work, but can drive however far I want on gas at other times.[/quote]

So what they need to do is make this electric car cheap enough for everyone to buy into, and this becomes your work vehicle. Other times, you can drive whatever you're driving now.

I really can't see why they couldn't do this years ago, unless the cost of the car would be too huge. I would love a vehicle that just runs on pure battery to go from work and home... that's all I do, every day.
 
[quote name='xycury']So what they need to do is make this electric car cheap enough for everyone to buy into, and this becomes your work vehicle. Other times, you can drive whatever you're driving now.

I really can't see why they couldn't do this years ago, unless the cost of the car would be too huge. I would love a vehicle that just runs on pure battery to go from work and home... that's all I do, every day.[/QUOTE]

I'd still prefer to just have one car and have it be a plug in hybrid that would be electric only for my work commute and gas otherwise.

Silly to have to cars and pay insurance on both, have to find parking for both (easy for some, harder if you're in a city and live in a building that only gives you one spot or has no parking and your paying monthly at a garage etc.).

Now I'm not saying they shouldn't make such cars. Just that I have no interest in them as convenience comes first for me.
 
They're failing because everyone is buying foreign (better) cars. Capitalism is a bitch, but if we're going socialist, let's bailout the dudes starving in the streets via public works and invest in education. What a novel idea...

Due to factory assembly and manufacturing I believe it's currently better for the environment to just drive a used 25 MPG sedan.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well in many ways our own government has created an atmosphere, or, more like allowed one to be created, where the automakers can not really compete with foreign car company's. The unions have them by the short and curly's and they can't make any headway on any negotiations. Their only choice is to outsource more and more to mexico etc, but they know that they will get little government help if they do that. They are really in a no win situation, and even with bailout money they will likely still fail - unless the unions are somehow forced to make massive concessions.

There are plenty of auto plants in this country doing just fine (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, etc), they just aren't American owned and they aren't in Michigan. So something is rotten in Denmark, so-to-speak. Something about the way American car company's choose, or are forced to, operate, just isn't working.[/quote]

All those other auto makers are doing fine in America because they have been given massive tax breaks and numerous other advantages. States built the infastruture, educated the work force, and did everything short of sucking dick to get these companies here. They are part of the problem. They got all this shit handed to them and then they wonder why others can't compete.

And anyone hating on them for making SUV's needs to look in the mirror. These auto makers understood that the profit margins on these vehicles was greater and so the public ate them up. Solely blaming them when we as a culture have a fascination with heavy duty vehicles doesn't make much sense to me.
 
It's not my fault, or any Joe Public's fault, for the big three not having mechanisms in place to remain profitable on sales of automobiles that weren't SUVs. I'm with you: fuck the recklessness of people who buy SUVs and giant trucks. I've said that for over a decade now. fuck 'em with a hybrid 10-foot pole.

But if people stop buying them, the company has to have plans to remain profitable by other means, or die. Not to not have a plan and then get government funding to avoid the death they deserve.

But, hey, I'm not against the bailout, really. Everyone should be bailed out. Give the big 3 $70 billion, twice their asking price. Should keep them alive for 8 more months. Give every American $250,000 in a bailout. I could pay off my student loans and debts, and also buy a nice sized house. I'll be economically solvent. Why does GM deserve it when I don't? We're ultimately, like we have been for 28 years now, spending money we don't have and don't care about paying back (remember how Bush became popular as a candidate because of Clinton's success, by taking the budget surplus we had and offering back to the public, who felt they deserved it, instead of beginning to pay back the $5.80 Trillion in debt we had accumulated since 1980?). Dick Cheney was right: deficits don't matter. Keep printing money. Bail me out. Bail GM out. Bail the Olmstead public school district out. Bail AIG out. Keep printing money. Keep adding to the deficit. It doesn't matter anyway. Keep printing money. Bail out and bring back the Cincinnati Stingers hockey team. Keep printing money. Bail everyone out for everything. Bail me out for that crappy "World Wrestling All-Stars" PPV I bought back in 2000. That show was total bullshit, and I made a mistake buying it. Gimmie my $20 back.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']All those other auto makers are doing fine in America because they have been given massive tax breaks and numerous other advantages. States built the infastruture, educated the work force, and did everything short of sucking dick to get these companies here. They are part of the problem. They got all this shit handed to them and then they wonder why others can't compete.

And anyone hating on them for making SUV's needs to look in the mirror. These auto makers understood that the profit margins on these vehicles was greater and so the public ate them up. Solely blaming them when we as a culture have a fascination with heavy duty vehicles doesn't make much sense to me.[/QUOTE]

I never owned an SUV and looked down on those that owned them while they were a fad. They tore up the fucking roads, cost way too much and were gas guzzlers. Just because America is fascinated with something doesnt mean the rest of us who realize how stupid it is should be punished whenever the fascination ends and they realize they owned an SUV and were bopping their heads to Britney Spears and thinking Eminem was hard.
 
I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.
 
[quote name='speedracer']I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.[/QUOTE]

But a big chunk of it IS labors fault. Just because big business is fucking up doesn't mean the American consumers and unions are not as well. The union was getting like $75-$100 per hour per worker when you take benefits into consideration which is just insane. You cant expect a business to run long with shit like that happening. Again my fiancee works in automotive and her company predicted this some time ago because of the insane benefits the union guys get....they just thought it would happen a few years from now.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I never owned an SUV and looked down on those that owned them while they were a fad. They tore up the fucking roads, cost way too much and were gas guzzlers. Just because America is fascinated with something doesnt mean the rest of us who realize how stupid it is should be punished whenever the fascination ends and they realize they owned an SUV and were bopping their heads to Britney Spears and thinking Eminem was hard.[/quote]

Indeed, SUVs are the bane of the roads, that and monster trucks... people made awful choices and it's not my fault.

I can understand Minivans, but not Dualie Trucks on the road/highways... or 1 person People buses that they like to call SUV...

[quote name='speedracer']I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.[/quote]

indeed, it's not the laborers fault for making SUVs that drink gas like it's water.

Though the unions that think they get 100/hour with the benefits need to look at it.... and that's probably the reason of why some plants ship to MEXICO...

it's time I think the Gov to step in and fire the top 1/3 and start with the guy right below them... make them smaller.
 
Save Chrysler and Ford...fuck GM

[quote name='speedracer']I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.[/QUOTE]

gmtoyotawagecomparedt9.jpg
 
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Shit I need to get a job with GM after they get bailout money.

Nobody is blaming the Unions for everything, speedracer. But they are not guiltless in this mess either. It's a multi-faceted problem. And it could be argued that the government ultimately created the problem with the banks by forcing them to give risky loans, just as it can be argued that the government ultimately helped create the problems for the auto makers through all their meddling.

There is blame to go around in every direction here. The question is, what, if anything, should be done about it.
 
So, everybody's guilty.

Consumers are guilty for their obsession with SUVs despite the consequences.
Labor is guilty for demanding high salaries and benefits despite limited growth and improvement.
Capital is guilty for not adapting to changing markets.
Government is guilty for trying to make an example of automakers without addressing the issues.

We're so damn fucked.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Agreed. It's really damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'd rather just let them fail. If they didn't want to be in this situation they shouldn't have been making cars that were inferior to foreign auto makers (I didn't even bother going to any of these dealer's when shopping for my last two cars--bought a Subaru in 1999 and a Mazda last year, as nothing caught my eye on their sites or the review sites) and been smarter with their money.

But it's a lot of jobs lost, effects suppliers of parts to their factories etc. etc. so they may well be too big to fail.[/QUOTE]Pretty much.

I'll admit I'm very upset with GM and other automakers and feel they deserve to fail.

However, many people in my area are employed by GM. There are also many plants in my area and surrounding area that make parts for GM. If GM goes under, my entire area goes down the drain (with tons of GM job losses) and all other companies who make stuff for GM would go under. There are a lot of companies in my state that tie in with the auto industry, and them failing would put us in the biggest depression ever. One of my old friends is a Mechanical Engineer at GM, and I'd be really sad to see him lose his job.
 
"Too big to fall" is 100% legit

"They're shit at their job, fuck them over" is 100% legit

The solution is to take over their companies, kick out the worthless sacks of shit, nullify their golden parachutes, fine them, bust the unions and start fresh. Break shit. Break everything. But don't just let it fall, the US auto industry cannot be allowed to fall, it is not an option.
 
[quote name='Koggit']
The solution is to take over their companies, kick out the worthless sacks of shit, nullify their golden parachutes, fine them, bust the unions and start fresh. Break shit. Break everything. But don't just let it fall, the US auto industry cannot be allowed to fall, it is not an option.[/quote]


There's something I can agree with.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Shit I need to get a job with GM after they get bailout money. Nobody is blaming the Unions for everything, speedracer. But they are not guiltless in this mess either.[/quote]
See, this is the part I don't get. If I pay you to do work and I as the business owner screw the pooch, is it your fault my business sucks?

And those Toyota numbers are shit for a number of reasons, not the least of which... surprise! Management. Toyota was chosen for comparison rather than a composite of foreign producers because its management has been arguably the best of the last 20 years. Their transition to just-in-time across all their business processes are the model for the entire business world in virtually all facets. They slashed their costs even as they produced more product through their techniques.

So yea, keep those garbage ass charts and data out of this thread unless it's put in context and relevant. I wonder why the chart didn't use Mitsu, or Kia.

And since it's the gold standard, how is Toyota doing? It's lost half its market cap in the last twelve months and its bonds were just down graded two weeks ago.

Nice chart though.

[quote name='Koggit']The solution is to take over their companies, kick out the worthless sacks of shit, nullify their golden parachutes, fine them, bust the unions and start fresh. Break shit. Break everything. But don't just let it fall, the US auto industry cannot be allowed to fall, it is not an option.[/QUOTE]

Given the fact you were arguing that America was going to get its money back on the AIG deal, I have to say I have difficulty taking your "bust the unions" (or any of the rest of your righteous indignation) seriously. Where was this when AIG was hat in hand?

Nobody's hands are clean here, but we're looking at (what everyone agrees is) three of the worst managed firms in America (outside of the financial industry) and we can't help but demand that the guy with the screw driver on the shop floor eat some crow. I don't get it.
 
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[quote name='speedracer']Given the fact you were arguing that America was going to get its money back on the AIG deal, I have to say I have difficulty taking your "bust the unions" (or any of the rest of your righteous indignation) seriously. Where was this when AIG was hat in hand?

Nobody's hands are clean here, but we're looking at (what everyone agrees is) three of the worst managed firms in America (outside of the financial industry) and we can't help but demand that the guy with the screw driver on the shop floor eat some crow. I don't get it.[/QUOTE]

AIG is infinitely better run than GM, and volatility of the company would have no impact on other businesses

AIG needs to remain stable and is in fine shape, GM can stand to be shaken up and needs a fresh slate

It's pretty sad that I've got to spell out the difference for you
 
[quote name='Koggit']AIG is infinitely better run than GM, and volatility of the company would have no impact on other businesses

AIG needs to remain stable and is in fine shape, GM can stand to be shaken up and needs a fresh slate

It's pretty sad that I've got to spell out the difference for you[/QUOTE]
Quoted for lollers. AIG > GM = Hilarious.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']fixed.

I want one of these:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Think_City_2007.jpg/759px-Think_City_2007.jpg

Norway: the new dominant force in the auto industry.

[/QUOTE]

Go ahead and drive your kids around in that . Be real careful not to get hit by an SUV when you're driving it . ;)

[quote name='Sporadic']Save Chrysler and Ford...fuck GM

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/433/gmtoyotawagecomparedt9.jpg[/QUOTE]

Wow , do you know how many retirees GM has compared to Toyota ?
Check out their legacy costs in comparison .

And as far as what an American car is , I'd say it's one that is sold by a company that is listed in the U.S. stock market .
 
[quote name='speedracer']Quoted for lollers. AIG > GM = Hilarious.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is correct: AIG > GM and GM = hilarious
 
Screw Ford and GM......Ferrari only sold 92 cars last month, down from an average of 600. With the US market being their primary market, they should apply for bailout funds as well with the promise of making 4 or 5 hybrid F430's a year.;)

The exotic car market is falling off a cliff and needs our taxpayer dollars!
 
[quote name='Koggit']Yes, that is correct: AIG > GM and GM = hilarious[/QUOTE]
Please, please, please explain to me how AIG is a better run company than GM. Please include references to the $135b already invested in AIG, the taxpayers' "stock" in AIG dropping $9bil since the infusion (you remember that stock, it's the one you said we'd make money on right?), and the credit default swaps still sitting on AIG's books.

Thanks in advance.
 
To be fair, no one said anything about making money on AIG right away. This was not a short term investment. The theory is that over the next 10-15 years AIG will prove to be a profitable investment and obviously it is way to early to say this has been a failed investment.
 
[quote name='BillyBob29']To be fair, no one said anything about making money on AIG right away. This was not a short term investment. The theory is that over the next 10-15 years AIG will prove to be a profitable investment and obviously it is way to early to say this has been a failed investment.[/QUOTE]

I think the automotive industry can be just as profitable if not more so.....but the car guys need to start moving forward. America is still number 1 despite Globalization and will be for some time because of what we invest in science and technology(even if its not enough we still doing more). However the car industry has been one of the industries that hasn't moved forward. The American auto industry has rested on its name, its clout and the fact that when it comes to cars for some reason Americans have this idea that we must buy American. This has meant that foreign car companies have not only passed the US ones but pretty much lapped them.

Carlos Mencia has a joke that when America and Russia went to the moon we realized we couldnt write in space with current pen technology. Russia said fuck it and used the pencil where as the US invested millions to make a pen that could write in space. Its funny and if true its sad......but this kind of thinking is what the automotive industry needs. If foreign car companies are going to invent a car that gets 70 MPG then we need to say up yours and invest enough to find a way to make it 100 mpg. If foreign car companies say cars that can hover are the wave of the future we need to say cars that can fly are the wave of the future. The American auto industry must start looking not just at what is selling but at what the competition is doing and then 1 up it.
 
I agree but the problem is that these companies are facing getting this loan is the lack of faith that they will actually change anything.

We have watched these companies go through dozens of restructuring processes over the past decade and NOTHING has really changed as a result. They keep making the same mistakes over and over again and now we want guarantees of real change this time. We don't want to give them money to keep them operating as is for another year. The money needs to be used for dramatic and immediate change.
 
[quote name='BillyBob29']I agree but the problem is that these companies are facing getting this loan is the lack of faith that they will actually change anything.

We have watched these companies go through dozens of restructuring processes over the past decade and NOTHING has really changed as a result. They keep making the same mistakes over and over again and now we want guarantees of real change this time. We don't want to give them money to keep them operating as is for another year. The money needs to be used for dramatic and immediate change.[/QUOTE]

They COULD put huge strings in place, demand new execs and all sorts of other stuff. Will they? Probably will claim to but in reality no.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I think the automotive industry can be just as profitable if not more so.....but the car guys need to start moving forward. America is still number 1 despite Globalization and will be for some time because of what we invest in science and technology(even if its not enough we still doing more). However the car industry has been one of the industries that hasn't moved forward. The American auto industry has rested on its name, its clout and the fact that when it comes to cars for some reason Americans have this idea that we must buy American. This has meant that foreign car companies have not only passed the US ones but pretty much lapped them.

Carlos Mencia has a joke that when America and Russia went to the moon we realized we couldnt write in space with current pen technology. Russia said fuck it and used the pencil where as the US invested millions to make a pen that could write in space. Its funny and if true its sad......but this kind of thinking is what the automotive industry needs. If foreign car companies are going to invent a car that gets 70 MPG then we need to say up yours and invest enough to find a way to make it 100 mpg. If foreign car companies say cars that can hover are the wave of the future we need to say cars that can fly are the wave of the future. The American auto industry must start looking not just at what is selling but at what the competition is doing and then 1 up it.[/quote]


Indeed, it's embarrassing... we made the car yet we're fallen at least 10 years behind other companies outside the US.

If it wasn't for how big they are, they should just bite the dust.

But with clost to a million or so people, that initial hit to unemployment would bankrupt that and hurt job markets all over.

It's a horrific wave of utter failure... and if the big 3 can't produce a selling product, there isn't any hope.

They need to shrink, and get smaller to turn a profit.... no way around that.
 
[quote name='BillyBob29']To be fair, no one said anything about making money on AIG right away. This was not a short term investment. The theory is that over the next 10-15 years AIG will prove to be a profitable investment and obviously it is way to early to say this has been a failed investment.[/QUOTE]
Ok. It's $9bil in the tank already but ok. Outside of the theory of it you really think this isn't going to be a failed investment? I mean hell, theoretically every investment makes money. Reality disagrees.

And their real liability, the credit default swaps, haven't even hit yet.
 
[quote name='Richlough']
Wow , do you know how many retirees GM has compared to Toyota ?
Check out their legacy costs in comparison .[/QUOTE]

And I think that's where the domestic car companies struggle to compete. How many thousands of dollars do retiree costs add to the price of each vehicle?

Public perception of poor quality has hurt them a lot too. They have made leaps and bounds in quality and reliability over the last decade, but people still think of the last POS American car they bought and won't even consider another. I have two GMs in my driveway that are 6 & 9 years old, and they have both been incredibly reliable. If GM manages to survive I won't hesitate to buy another one.

I don't want to see the taxpayers bail out these companies though. If they can't make it in the market then they need to restructure or liquidate, just like so many other publicly-held corporations have done before them.
 
The bailout as it is currently structured is basically the worst possible solution, in a scenario where there arent any particularly great solutions.

We're stringing them along when they are going to fail anyway, only we've thrown a lot of additional bad money after good. With that money we could've bought them outright.

In the bigger picture, there are tax, trade, social and fiscal policies of the country that are the problem. We can start by protecting our domestic industry again, and bringing in national health care for starters. Secondarily, pay at the top needs to not be loaded with stock, so they can start thinking like business owners again and not shareholders. Personal income tax on the top brackets needs to go back up to where it was when we had a strong manufacturing industry. It pushes people to keep money reinvested within the company rather than taking it for salary and moving it elsewhere.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Ok. It's $9bil in the tank already but ok. Outside of the theory of it you really think this isn't going to be a failed investment? I mean hell, theoretically every investment makes money. Reality disagrees.

And their real liability, the credit default swaps, haven't even hit yet.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, its way to early to tell but I personally think that at best we will end with a breakeven situation in 10-15 years.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I think the automotive industry can be just as profitable if not more so.....but the car guys need to start moving forward. America is still number 1 despite Globalization and will be for some time because of what we invest in science and technology(even if its not enough we still doing more). However the car industry has been one of the industries that hasn't moved forward. The American auto industry has rested on its name, its clout and the fact that when it comes to cars for some reason Americans have this idea that we must buy American. This has meant that foreign car companies have not only passed the US ones but pretty much lapped them.

Carlos Mencia has a joke that when America and Russia went to the moon we realized we couldnt write in space with current pen technology. Russia said fuck it and used the pencil where as the US invested millions to make a pen that could write in space. Its funny and if true its sad......but this kind of thinking is what the automotive industry needs. If foreign car companies are going to invent a car that gets 70 MPG then we need to say up yours and invest enough to find a way to make it 100 mpg. If foreign car companies say cars that can hover are the wave of the future we need to say cars that can fly are the wave of the future. The American auto industry must start looking not just at what is selling but at what the competition is doing and then 1 up it.[/QUOTE]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen

They used pencil, but it was $128.89 mechanical pencils. Still an insane amount of money in the 60s.
 
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[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']The bailout as it is currently structured is basically the worst possible solution, in a scenario where there arent any particularly great solutions.

We're stringing them along when they are going to fail anyway, only we've thrown a lot of additional bad money after good. With that money we could've bought them outright.

In the bigger picture, there are tax, trade, social and fiscal policies of the country that are the problem. We can start by protecting our domestic industry again, and bringing in national health care for starters. Secondarily, pay at the top needs to not be loaded with stock, so they can start thinking like business owners again and not shareholders. Personal income tax on the top brackets needs to go back up to where it was when we had a strong manufacturing industry. It pushes people to keep money reinvested within the company rather than taking it for salary and moving it elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Most people are against the goverment owning major enterprises though. Dont get me wrong I say fuck it whatever means the most jobs and services for the least tax payer dollar I am happy with. Buy out the big 3 then restructure keeping jobs and then flip the companies later putting the money back in tax payer pockets, or dont but let tax payers enjoy the boom in stocks.
 
I think MSI brings up a good point. I have been a staunch supporter of purchasing older, used cars outright with my money. I think it's the best bang for my buck, as long as you inspect the car carefully. But if these car companies had pulled their head out of their asses and gotten out of the bed with the oil companies and made a car that had 70-100 MPG, I'd buy a new car immediately.
 
I wonder how the 2-3 million people in the US, whose jobs are literally hanging by a thread, feel about their elected leaders basically doing nothing but playing petty political games with their futures.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/business/13auto.html?_r=1&hp

It's dead (or just sleeping).

$700 Billion to big banks? No questions asked. Rush that dude through.

$25/34/14 Billion to the auto industry? Kill it and blame the unions, and just the unions, for causing its demise.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention that the main point of the $700 billion bail out was that without it banks would stop lending to business. If the damn loan did what it was supposed to in the first place this bail out probably wouldn't even be an issue.

Edit - The one thing I will add though is that I would be interested to see what the steep cuts that Republicans demanded of salaries were though. If they said that Auto Wokers are makign like $20-$30 an hour now and maybe they should go down to $15ish I would compltly agree and understand. Though I would still be disgusted they didnt do the same for bank workers and demmand that the execs stop getting paid 300 gazalion a year. Pretty disgusting that they are always willing to make the common man take cuts(even if they are justified)but I cant recall the last time I heard of a Republican fighting to have a rich persons pay cut.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Not to mention that the main point of the $700 billion bail out was that without it banks would stop lending to business. If the damn loan did what it was supposed to in the first place this bail out probably wouldn't even be an issue.

Edit - The one thing I will add though is that I would be interested to see what the steep cuts that Republicans demanded of salaries were though. If they said that Auto Wokers are makign like $20-$30 an hour now and maybe they should go down to $15ish I would compltly agree and understand. Though I would still be disgusted they didnt do the same for bank workers and demmand that the execs stop getting paid 300 gazalion a year. Pretty disgusting that they are always willing to make the common man take cuts(even if they are justified)but I cant recall the last time I heard of a Republican fighting to have a rich persons pay cut.[/QUOTE]

It is my understanding that there is roughly a $30 per hour difference between the average UAW worker for the Big 3 and the average worker for the foreign automakers. I believe the goal is to cut that difference in half. However, I do believe that $30 difference is not just salary but the combined value of salary + benefits.
 
They're going to get it. Don't believe the bullshit that the auto industry is doomed because they didn't get their money today. They'll get it by Monday. And it'll be just as bad as the big bailout bill. The reason why this one was held up was because of the whole 'must comply to all fuel emission standards' line that was added in so late (meaning they have to comply with State Regulations as well as Federal Regulations). But they'll never tell you who put that in there, but I know who it was.

People need to open their eyes. This is all Government is now. Tape, tape, tape. This isn't a phenomena. It's standard. As far as auto workers 'ruining companies' it's not the ones who are currently working. It's the legacy costs of all those retired workers. Those costs are what's hurting these companies.
 
[quote name='BillyBob29']It is my understanding that there is roughly a $30 per hour difference between the average UAW worker for the Big 3 and the average worker for the foreign automakers. I believe the goal is to cut that difference in half. However, I do believe that $30 difference is not just salary but the combined value of salary + benefits.[/QUOTE]

Ya after figuring out their benefits as well its like $70-$100 an hour they are making. I completely agree as I said in my last post that they need to cut these guys pay/benefits by as much as half(though I think this should be a processe where they loose like 20% a year vs all at once). The problem I have is as I said that Republicans are always up for stuff like this or keeping the minumn wage nice and low. But where were they when it came to cutting CEO and Exec pay when all these banks were failing? Where were they years ago when we bailed out the auto industry? Where have they been at as Wall street groups make more and more? And where were they when they were voting to raise their own damn pay and reduce gifts they can take from lobbyists? Time and time again they stand up to fight for the rich and themselves and the only time they talk needed pay cut is when it comes to the common man and poor.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']They're going to get it. Don't believe the bullshit that the auto industry is doomed because they didn't get their money today. They'll get it by Monday. And it'll be just as bad as the big bailout bill. The reason why this one was held up was because of the whole 'must comply to all fuel emission standards' line that was added in so late (meaning they have to comply with State Regulations as well as Federal Regulations). But they'll never tell you who put that in there, but I know who it was.

People need to open their eyes. This is all Government is now. Tape, tape, tape. This isn't a phenomena. It's standard. As far as auto workers 'ruining companies' it's not the ones who are currently working. It's the legacy costs of all those retired workers. Those costs are what's hurting these companies.[/QUOTE]

Yes heaven forbid they have to make more fuel effiencent cars. Lets just keep pumping out the SUVs that no one is buying and that got them into this mess and America into the oil mess we have today! Again gotta love that Republican agenda!
 
I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?[/QUOTE]

My fiancee works at an assembly plant that runs itself extreamly well and has bought out a few that didnt. She said that the figures break down to something like $20-$30 an hour as far as actual income but then when you figure in benefits its often an additional $50-$75 an hour meaning it costs like $70-$100 an hour for most of those guys.

Funny thing is one of the biggest ways that her factory cuts costs is through liberal policies that have been so opposed by conservatives and business alike. They do stuff like weight loss benefits(such as paying $20 less a month for their health insurance)and paying for people to stop smoking. They also give workers a cut of profit based on performance every 3 months.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?[/QUOTE]

Apparently they reason the number is so high is that pension and healthcare etc. being paid out for those who are already retired are thrown into the calculation, which is fucked if you ask me.
 
Yeah, I'd like to see the breakdown as well. Fringe benefits are always costly, I do a lot of budgeting for the reasearch grants I've worked on and hired people on.

Ours comes to around 30% of salary for people that have health insurance, retirment etc. and 8% for hourly people without those who are just getting social security and medicare contributions. And these are for people considered state employees, and the benefits are pretty decent.

So it's seems very sketchy to have the fringe benefits in these auto plants be great than 100% of their salaries. Though if pension etc. is included as Msut says, then that makes more sense. But that shouldn't be included in a figure of the hourly calculation of current employees.

Going forward, pensions should become totally a thing of the past, with employers just having 401ks and other retirment accounts available that they contribute to while the person is working for them. When the person retires they live off of that and social security rather than staying on the company's pay roll on a pension.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?[/QUOTE]

I don't think the Japanese companies are unionized, are they?
 
Thanks for that factcheck article, spazx.

Countdown to the "factcheck has a liberal bias" from the right. Not from people here, but from the right blogosphere and Fox News.
 
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