The Great College Hoax

Young people are constantly told that college educated people make more money and generally have better lives, isn't it only natural that we'd be more interested in what can help us with our careers? It's a really hard to sell to show how something like music or theater is going to help an computer science student in their career.

Classes like that are for you're own enrichment, i don't see them ever helping you in your career, unless they are part of your major perhaps.

Some people are worried about making money because they need to. If someone comes from a low income family, what do you think they're going to be most worried about? They just want a better life. Personally, I try to see both sides of the coin, try to tell myself that those humanities and social science courses are important, but sometimes it comes down to thinking more economically.

Edit- Just so the grammar nazi's head doesn't explode.
 
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[quote name='JolietJake']It's a really hard to sell to show how something like music or theater is going to help help an computer science student in their career.[/quote]

You'd be amazed at how a simple mastery of grammar can help you in your career, even in a business like IT.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Also, I'm fascinated by the discussion y'all are having of deciphering "worthy" and "unworthy" majors/areas of study in college. It runs right along the lines of Frank Donoghue's argument in his book "The Last Professors." His book basically argues that college and university are becoming more vocational/technical schools and conduits for a career. Not places where people want to study for the sake of knowledge itself, or expanding their minds. In fact, what y'all are saying here really reinforces that the notion is even more extreme: anything that deviates from the functional goal of "job training" courses (since that's how y'all look at it) are a waste of time, nothing to be interested in, and part of the great university scam). [/QUOTE]

To be clear, I have nothing against bullshit degrees -- my opposition is to subsidizing the cost of those degrees with $tax.

Higher education gets tax funding because many degrees benefit society. The engineer and accountant strengthen our economy, the scientist generates American patents (strengthens economy) and improves our quality of life, the medical professional saves lives... the art history major, after college, does things they could have done before Uncle Sam dropped 50k on their "best 4 years of [their] life". Sure, they enjoyed it and are grateful the opportunity was there, but why was it at the cost of the taxpayer?

Humans are innately curious creatures, general knowledge degrees don't need to be subsidized to entice students to enroll. By contrast, useful degrees aren't so interesting and fun to get, but benefit society much more.. they should be more heavily subsidized.
 
[quote name='Koggit']To be clear, I have nothing against bullshit degrees -- my opposition is to subsidizing the cost of those degrees with $tax.

Higher education gets tax funding because many degrees benefit society. The engineer and accountant strengthen our economy, the scientist generates American patents (strengthens economy) and improves our quality of life, the medical professional saves lives... the art history major, after college, does things they could have done before Uncle Sam dropped 50k on their "best 4 years of [their] life". Sure, they enjoyed it and are grateful the opportunity was there, but why was it at the cost of the taxpayer?

Humans are innately curious creatures, general knowledge degrees don't need to be subsidized to entice students to enroll. By contrast, useful degrees aren't so interesting and fun to get, but benefit society much more.. they should be more heavily subsidized.[/quote]

We spend so much tax money on bombs, missles, and guns that destroy. We spend so much tax money on propping up corrupt and inept businesses and executive businessmen so we can (hopefully) avoid a full scale depression.

We spend so little tax money on the creative arts as it is. I can't agree that we should cut funding alltogether for that which uplifts the human spirit and challenges the status quo, in favor of that which destroys and consumes the middle class.
 
A friend of mine thinks we should offer full tuition reimbursement to all students that maintain a 2.5gpa and get a science based degree. He argues that it would push many middling, non-committed students towards a degree that America sorely needs more of (while pressing them to work hard enough to keep their GPA up). He hopes it would also encourage people to double major in a science + (who cares what the other degree is), with the thought being that creating an engineering/math/science based educated base would increase earning power, functional understanding, and innovation in other fields.

I think it's a damn good idea that would pay for itself through increasing the tax base in a pretty straight forward way.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
The short of how I approach class is to say "you're grown ups, so you get to make your own decisions." [/quote]

Only within the framework you set for them, of course. :)

Question for anyone: How often do professors who are bad teachers get fired? Is there any detailed research on this?
 
You're not going to get someone with tenure fired; that's the short of that. Someone without? Depends. There are means of sanctioning, but "firing"? Not that likely. I've seen professors get criticized by entire sections of their classes - they weren't fired, but their teaching style and overall work improved markedly *and* quickly.

There may be some research on professors who are fired, but above the high school level, folks are fighting for tenure, and (here's something I'm sure you'll love) a teacher's promotion and staying on often has so very, very, very little to do with their teaching quality and more with the number (and quality) of their publications over six years.
 
There are countless issues that can be raised with higher education from the cost of books to the way students are now passed through the system getting grades they dont deserve. However there are issues with this article as well. What the fuck were these people doing that they had 2 six figure a year jobs and couldnt pay a $200,000 debt down? Me and my fiancee are saving mad bank making just $32,000 a year. I bet if you gave me a $200,000 debt but a $200,000+ a year salary at the longest I would have the debt paid off in 2 years with a ton of money left over to invest and play with. Chances are these people did the same thing every other stupid American does and went out and got a big house, 2 nice cars, had kids, went on vacation etc etc. Where if they would have just lived in a $300-$700 a month apartment, kept their expenses simple and held off on the kids and vacations for 2 or 3 years they would be living it up.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You're not going to get someone with tenure fired; that's the short of that. Someone without? Depends. There are means of sanctioning, but "firing"? Not that likely. I've seen professors get criticized by entire sections of their classes - they weren't fired, but their teaching style and overall work improved markedly *and* quickly.

There may be some research on professors who are fired, but above the high school level, folks are fighting for tenure, and (here's something I'm sure you'll love) a teacher's promotion and staying on often has so very, very, very little to do with their teaching quality and more with the number (and quality) of their publications over six years.[/QUOTE]

Yep, and the only stipulation I would add is that it's a bit different at small teaching colleges that don't have research. There 're teaching evaluations etc. play more of a role--at some research matters more, at other's teaching (some small ones don't even have research expectations).

But yes, at research universities teaching matters next to nothing for getting tenure. In all my interviews this year no one every outlined what the expect in terms of teaching from junior professors but were very explicit in what their expectations for research, publications and bringing in grants were.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You're not going to get someone with tenure fired; that's the short of that. Someone without? Depends. There are means of sanctioning, but "firing"? Not that likely. I've seen professors get criticized by entire sections of their classes - they weren't fired, but their teaching style and overall work improved markedly *and* quickly.

There may be some research on professors who are fired, but above the high school level, folks are fighting for tenure, and (here's something I'm sure you'll love) a teacher's promotion and staying on often has so very, very, very little to do with their teaching quality and more with the number (and quality) of their publications over six years.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info. That's pretty much what I figured. It's not that I love it...I just know how badly it works.
 
[quote name='camoor']You'd be amazed at how a simple mastery of grammar can help you in your career, even in a business like IT.[/quote]

So i suck at typing, sue me. I apologize that i don't put as much effort into my forum posts as i would a research paper.:roll:
 
Your sentence was awesome-bad though, it reminds me of how I type in Warcraft when I want to start shit (which is 100% of the time)
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']There are countless issues that can be raised with higher education from the cost of books to the way students are now passed through the system getting grades they dont deserve. However there are issues with this article as well. What the fuck were these people doing that they had 2 six figure a year jobs and couldnt pay a $200,000 debt down? Me and my fiancee are saving mad bank making just $32,000 a year. I bet if you gave me a $200,000 debt but a $200,000+ a year salary at the longest I would have the debt paid off in 2 years with a ton of money left over to invest and play with. Chances are these people did the same thing every other stupid American does and went out and got a big house, 2 nice cars, had kids, went on vacation etc etc. Where if they would have just lived in a $300-$700 a month apartment, kept their expenses simple and held off on the kids and vacations for 2 or 3 years they would be living it up.[/quote]


Well, I could go on for hours about such behavior. I'm currently reading a book called " The Millionaire Next Door" and I suggest everyone reads it. It basically proves that the majority of millionaires do not live this high cost lifestyle, they mostly live way below their means, save their money and invest, etc. The percentage of people who just have crazy money (entertainers, those who inherited their funds ) is slim, yet they are covered and sensationalized on TV. Many people do not believe in investing and saving because they believe more in instant gratification. I think college and that culture can go hand in hand (i.e people who think they're entitled to a job because of college ).
 
[quote name='HovaEscobar']Well, I could go on for hours about such behavior. I'm currently reading a book called " The Millionaire Next Door" and I suggest everyone reads it. It basically proves that the majority of millionaires do not live this high cost lifestyle, they mostly live way below their means, save their money and invest, etc. [/QUOTE]
Get Rich Slowly is a killer blog that focuses on this. You should have a read.
 
So what do you all think about this plan for life?

I start working straight out of high school, looking for as much internships and jobs I can get without my degree ( actually start looking before i graduate). I do this for four years and save up all of the money I make and put away 15 percent of that while spending the other on college. I think that would leave me without debt, with a college degree AND a possible foot in the door/ experience in my field. Of course, my mother would bitch about me living at home the whole time, but my brother spent 5 years in college, run up 50,000+ in debt, never saved a dime or tried to pay down debt although he's had various jobs, and he's currently living at home with plans to go to grad school . Couldn't get programs to pay for his extra schooling because his college GPA was so low. The douche tries to give ME information on colleges and life choices , tells ME bullshit about how "valuable" the "college experience" is, and he's done NOTHING with his life. If she really woulds't let me live in her house and work my ass off I'd just seriously be so pissed at her that I, I really don't know what I'd do. I think you can all see now where my harsh feelings toward college may come from.
 
Depends on what kind of jobs you plan on holding out of high school, and what kind of college/university (in terms of cost/scholarships) you plan on attending.
 
I want to get a job in sales which I guess starting out would be like a telemarket job or something in the like? I'd really do odd jobs if I had to. I don't really plan on going to a top tier university or anything.
 
Kinda vague. I'd have more a set amount to save per year than a set %. Find 5-10 colleges you would like to attend, average their tuitions, add 20-30% (books, supplemental costs and fees, etc.) - and you have your first two years covered.

Still, in many cases you're talking about saving a bare minimum $20-30K for two years of education to make sure all ends are covered.
 
Everything that I'm looking at just makes the four years working look like a drop in a bucket and these aren't even particularly special college. *sigh*
 
circus1.jpg


Welcome! One of us! One of us!
 
There is very little need to have education if you're going straight sales.

My wife's methhead GED stepsister makes about half of what we earn selling avon.

Considering her poor hygiene, I think that is amazing.

EDIT: If you're going to run a business, I'm sure there are some college courses that can help.
 
[quote name='HovaEscobar']So what do you all think about this plan for life?

I start working straight out of high school, looking for as much internships and jobs I can get without my degree ( actually start looking before i graduate). I do this for four years and save up all of the money I make and put away 15 percent of that while spending the other on college. I think that would leave me without debt, with a college degree AND a possible foot in the door/ experience in my field. Of course, my mother would bitch about me living at home the whole time, but my brother spent 5 years in college, run up 50,000+ in debt, never saved a dime or tried to pay down debt although he's had various jobs, and he's currently living at home with plans to go to grad school . Couldn't get programs to pay for his extra schooling because his college GPA was so low. The douche tries to give ME information on colleges and life choices , tells ME bullshit about how "valuable" the "college experience" is, and he's done NOTHING with his life. If she really woulds't let me live in her house and work my ass off I'd just seriously be so pissed at her that I, I really don't know what I'd do. I think you can all see now where my harsh feelings toward college may come from.[/QUOTE]
The college "experience" is stupid. You can drink beer and bang chicks anywhere. Focus on your goals and you can succeed no matter what.

Taking on debt to continue education is often a very good idea. Figure out how much you're going to be making in your first years out of a college you can reasonably expect to get into. My major typically paid $60-75k for solid top 25% talent. Before college, I had skills that would have paid me around $15-20$ an hour.

Taking the low ball figure from each, it's easy to decide whether to "invest" in yourself by taking on debt.

Save and then go to school:
=================
$15 * 40 hours * 50 weeks * 4 years of saving = $120,000 (pretax). - 20% taxes, -30% basic purchases over the course of 4 years = roughly $60,000. This could reasonably be expected to pay for most school expenses, so your total bank account after 8 years would be roughly $0 and you would have a college education.

Take on debt to go to school:
===================
Assuming $15k a year for school and expenses, no job or money to start with. $60k in debt immediately upon exiting school. It's a crap economy, so your first job nets you a whopping $45k. Over the next 4 years, you'll make around $180,000 - $65k (loans and interest) - 20% taxes (36k) - 30% expenses which leaves a little over $35,000. At the end of 8 years, you would have around $35,000 (more if you took care of it properly) and four years of working experience in your field, which would mean you're probably ready for your first real promotion.

That's how I see it anyway. YMMV if you go soft science :D
This also does not include internships, etc. offered through the school. My major typically pays >$20 for interns.. so there is additional money out there not necessarily accounted for.
 
[quote name='lordwow']$45 to start? Try $30 if that for soft science.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely, hence the YMMV. If earning power is a primary concern, soft science shouldn't be considered. On the other hand, business, engineering, math, IT, statistics, supply chain management, and management of information systems command considerably higher than $45k to start, so I thought $45k was a nice round figure.

My wife had a 3.9 undergrad, $30k in debt from undergrad, and a journalism degree from a top university that was going to start her at a robust $19k a year. We reassessed the situation and decided that another investment in law school was prudent. She continued to law school where she is a top 5% student at her school. She has multiple offers over $150k and she's still in her second year. At that rate, it's clear that our investment in her continuing education is going to be the best investment we could have possibly made. She's kicking the shit out of the DOW and S&P, that's for sure.

Our total assumption of $75k in debt in her education will be paid in her first year. Hell, she's going to make $30k in 10 weeks this summer as an intern.

Treat yourself like any other stock on the stock market. Realistically assess your abilities and priorities, your overall potential, and the potential for those in the field you're interested in. When you get finished, reassess again.. and do it every year. If you're a genuinely AAA rated security, go all out (like my wife). If you're more of a BBB- student (like myself), adjust accordingly. I took less debt, went to a community college for two years (getting a transfer degree that waived my first two years at university) to lower my overall debt liability (by a significant sum), and majored in something that would help market me in a way that my grades wouldn't be the delimiting factor.

Be honest with yourself and you'll do yourself a great service.
 
[quote name='speedracer']

Taking on debt to continue education is often a very good idea. Figure out how much you're going to be making in your first years out of a college you can reasonably expect to get into. My major typically paid $60-75k for solid top 25% talent. Before college, I had skills that would have paid me around $15-20$ an hour.

Taking the low ball figure from each, it's easy to decide whether to "invest" in yourself by taking on debt.

Save and then go to school:
=================
$15 * 40 hours * 50 weeks * 4 years of saving = $120,000 (pretax). - 20% taxes, -30% basic purchases over the course of 4 years = roughly $60,000. This could reasonably be expected to pay for most school expenses, so your total bank account after 8 years would be roughly $0 and you would have a college education.

Take on debt to go to school:
===================
Assuming $15k a year for school and expenses, no job or money to start with. $60k in debt immediately upon exiting school. It's a crap economy, so your first job nets you a whopping $45k. Over the next 4 years, you'll make around $180,000 - $65k (loans and interest) - 20% taxes (36k) - 30% expenses which leaves a little over $35,000. At the end of 8 years, you would have around $35,000 (more if you took care of it properly) and four years of working experience in your field, which would mean you're probably ready for your first real promotion.

.[/quote]

That makes sense. Never saw it according to time. Honestly, I just want to jump right in to the job market and don't want to go to icky old college.
 
[quote name='speedracer']IT command considerably higher than $45k to start, so I thought $45k was a nice round figure.
[/quote]

Maybe in rupees, but not in dollars. It is very bloated and everything that can be outsourced has or is being outsourced.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Maybe in rupees, but not in dollars. It is very bloated and everything that can be outsourced has or is being outsourced.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. The market for shit programmers is long gone (adios VB motherfuckers!), but the market for half decent coders is ever present. If you're talented, you'll make as much money as ever.

India has cultural constraints that prevent them from upstream competition with American coders. It's just the reality of the situation. They're great for low level crap offloading, but 10 Indian coders aren't worth a single talented American coder when there are real business requirements that must be ironed out and met.

http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=294661&cid=20565831
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=294661&cid=20564707

My favorite quote from that thread:
People who say the profession is dead mean that the profession is no longer supporting as many gross incompetents as it did back during the boom. That's thankfully quite true.
Click to expand...

Just my opinion.

[quote name='evanft']Hova, why didn't you do good enough in high school so that you could simply go to school for free?[/QUOTE]
How far do you have to have your head up your ass to ask a high schooler a question like that? And it's "well enough" you scholarly turd.
 
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[quote name='speedracer'] business, engineering, math, IT, statistics, supply chain management, and management of information systems command considerably higher than $45k to start
[/QUOTE]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Maybe if you're in NYC. Or have a grad degree. I'd say maybe slighter higher than $45k for undergrad for the majors listed, but "considerably" higher is a lie in most areas of the country.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Maybe if you're in NYC. Or have a grad degree. I'd say maybe slighter higher than $45k for undergrad for the majors listed, but "considerably" higher is a lie in most areas of the country.[/QUOTE]
I'm in Houston and it's the reality of the situation here. I know it's similar in NYC, LA, CHI, HOU, SEA, DAL, ATL, RAL, D.C., BOS, and everywhere else that actually matters. No offense, but nobody really gives a shit about anywhere else if you're trying to make money. Obviously North Dakota won't offer the same earning power, or OH, or the rest of the economic drags.

edit: I just saw you were from OH. I didn't do that on purpose, but you get my point. Cleveland ain't gonna get you paid.

At the same time, that was a low ball figure for many of the jobs I listed here in Houston. Over half of those majors can expect a minimum of a 40% premium on my figures if they're talented and even top 25% at their school, which isn't difficult anywhere really.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Maybe if you're in NYC. Or have a grad degree. I'd say maybe slighter higher than $45k for undergrad for the majors listed, but "considerably" higher is a lie in most areas of the country.[/quote]

Anything less than 50-55k for a smart graduating engineer in the major fields with experience would be an insult. So slightly higher. 45k is like internship scale for engineers. Of course, that was BEFORE the world ended.
 
[quote name='evanft']Hova, why didn't you do good enough in high school so that you could simply go to school for free?[/quote]

I was something like 7th out of a class of over 200 and an ACT score of 32. State schools like Mizzou and Rolla offered me loans. Washington University offered me $15,000.

Maybe Hova isn't drop dead poor or valedictorian.
 
[quote name='speedracer']I'm in Houston and it's the reality of the situation here. I know it's similar in NYC, LA, CHI, HOU, SEA, DAL, ATL, RAL, D.C., BOS, and everywhere else that actually matters. No offense, but nobody really gives a shit about anywhere else if you're trying to make money. Obviously North Dakota won't offer the same earning power, or OH, or the rest of the economic drags.

edit: I just saw you were from OH. I didn't do that on purpose, but you get my point. Cleveland ain't gonna get you paid.

At the same time, that was a low ball figure for many of the jobs I listed here in Houston. Over half of those majors can expect a minimum of a 40% premium on my figures if they're talented and even top 25% at their school, which isn't difficult anywhere really.[/QUOTE]

Gotta agree with DoK you're out of your mind.. a little.

Engineering from a top school and accounting if you get in at one of the big companies will each get about what you're proposing (40% more than 45k), but the others.. no way. Maybe if you're at an Ivy League school and have great connections. Otherwise, expect to use that B.A. in math teaching teenagers how to solve linear equations for 30k/yr.

Edit: You didnt even mention accounting.. okay, so engineering is your only realistic claim.
 
[quote name='speedracer']I disagree. The market for shit programmers is long gone (adios VB motherfuckers!), but the market for half decent coders is ever present. If you're talented, you'll make as much money as ever.

India has cultural constraints that prevent them from upstream competition with American coders. It's just the reality of the situation. They're great for low level crap offloading, but 10 Indian coders aren't worth a single talented American coder when there are real business requirements that must be ironed out and met.
[/quote]

My certificates in Visual Basic 6 and .Net are worthless? Oh noes!

I've seen talented programmers before. Upper management tend to stomp on them constantly and scrap them off into the garbage at the first opportunity or the programmer moves onto another company.

I would like to believe 1 talented programmer can outperform ten Indian coders, but management sees the 1 talented programmer putting in 30 snarky hours a week because he/she is awesome while each Indian puts in 70 hours a week and is grateful for new shoes every six months.

Think in terms of football. Are you betting on the team with 11 people on the field while the other team has 220?

[quote name='speedracer']I'm in Houston and it's the reality of the situation here. I know it's similar in NYC, LA, CHI, HOU, SEA, DAL, ATL, RAL, D.C., BOS, and everywhere else that actually matters. No offense, but nobody really gives a shit about anywhere else if you're trying to make money. Obviously North Dakota won't offer the same earning power, or OH, or the rest of the economic drags.[/quote]

And the living expenses in those important areas are astronomical. That just destroys your argument. My wife got her first mortgage in Kentucky when she made less than $30K and never missed a payment while my friend with a JD making $75K in DC struggles to live in a studio apartment.
 
The 75k JD must have a lot of debt.. which is understandable, considering the cost of lol school

But still, really, 75k single is quite comfortable in DC.. my cousin lived there comfortably with his wife & daughter on 55k (electrical engineer, patent examiner at USPTO)
 
[quote name='Koggit']Gotta agree with DoK you're out of your mind.. a little.

Engineering from a top school and accounting if you get in at one of the big companies will each get about what you're proposing (40% more than 45k), but the others.. no way. Maybe if you're at an Ivy League school and have great connections. Otherwise, expect to use that B.A. in math teaching teenagers how to solve linear equations for 30k/yr.

Edit: You didnt even mention accounting.. okay, so engineering is your only realistic claim.[/QUOTE]

I'm an accounting major and I'm getting 47k + 7k total 1st year bonus at the biggest accounting firm on the planet. It's not much more in Seattle, where I also looked. Possibly around $50k is what I heard. So sorry, but that's bullshit at least in Seattle. Apparently the big four doesn't pay much more in big cities because everyone and their mom wants to work there right out of college. And I'd rather pay like $500/month for rent instead of $1500 like in NYC or Seattle and have a 15 minute commute during rush hour for a bit of a salary loss. Also nice 4 bedroom houses are under $200k here if I decide I want to stay.
 
[quote name='Koggit']The 75k JD must have a lot of debt.. which is understandable, considering the cost of lol school

But still, really, 75k single is quite comfortable in DC.. my cousin lived there comfortably with his wife & daughter on 55k (electrical engineer, patent examiner at USPTO)[/quote]

Hmm. My friend and your cousin have probably bumped into each other.

Yep. BS in Chemical Engineering. MS in Electrical Engineering and a JD in Patent Law or something like that. We compared debt levels. They were about the same except mine included a house.

Guy lives alone, dates infrequently, steals Wifi, torrents instead of buys, supervisor tells him to work harder every week or he is getting canned and eats a bunch of antidepressants daily.

As far as 55K with a wife and daughter, how big was their house? How much money did the wife make? How much debt did the couple have?
 
Absolutely father, we make a combined ~$55k (my fiance and I) and we're barely able to pay our bills, and that's after we moved out of the city of Boston and into the cheaper suburbs (before we were paying $1k/month for a studio the size of our closet in our new apt).
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']My certificates in Visual Basic 6 and .Net are worthless? Oh noes![/quote]
heh.

I agree with everything you said. Prima donna programmers are a pain in the ass. A prof of mine loves to ask the question "In war, would you rather have a single "Rambo" or 500 simians with uzis"? At the same time, you can't trust them to be creative in ways an American coder is. It's just the culture.
And the living expenses in those important areas are astronomical. That just destroys your argument. My wife got her first mortgage in Kentucky when she made less than $30K and never missed a payment while my friend with a JD making $75K in DC struggles to live in a studio apartment.
Click to expand...
I thought about that last night and realized I should have said something about that also. Living expenses are dirt cheap here in Houston and I too often transpose our reality on the other big cities. I'm renting a 3 bedroom 2 bath house less than 10 minutes (using surface streets no less) from the downtown-iest spot in downtown Houston for $935. The owner paid $141k for it 5 years ago. Our housing market didn't skyrocket like everyone else's, which only amplifies our earning power.

[quote name='Koggit']Gotta agree with DoK you're out of your mind.. a little.[/quote]
Maybe Houston is such a nice little bubble that the pain being felt elsewhere hasn't gotten here yet. I certainly wouldn't want to be a finance major right now, but statistics, supply chain management, and information systems management grads are starting at $60k+ here right now. I don't know a single person laid off in Houston, nor any offer yanked. They're tightening up for sure, but money is still on the table.
Engineering from a top school and accounting if you get in at one of the big companies will each get about what you're proposing (40% more than 45k), but the others.. no way. Maybe if you're at an Ivy League school and have great connections.
Click to expand...
My brother in law is a EE junior at UH and is getting feelers from local companies that put him well above $50k (and I'm seriously lowballing here).
Otherwise, expect to use that B.A. in math teaching teenagers how to solve linear equations for 30k/yr.
Click to expand...
If earning power is what it comes down to (and what I was basing my arguments on), math wouldn't be vanilla math, but actuarial math. Those guys regularly hit $80k out of school (and again, that's probably lowballing).
Edit: You didnt even mention accounting.. okay, so engineering is your only realistic claim.
Click to expand...
The smart accounting majors I know are doubling up with a supply chain/IT management/statistics degree and are by far the hottest properties in the business school right now. They're an auditor's dream. The most recruited person I know is an accounting/IT management double major and she's accepted an offer for $80k to start with only an internship as experience.
 
[quote name='evanft']Hova, why didn't you do good enough in high school so that you could simply go to school for free?[/quote]

My GPA right now is 3.0+, sorry I don't want to spend so much time studying that I don't have time to plan my life.
 
[quote name='HovaEscobar']My GPA right now is 3.0+, sorry I don't want to spend so much time studying that I don't have time to plan my life.[/quote]

I have a full-time job that has me leaving the house at 7:30 a.m. and getting home at 6:00 p.m., I hang out with friends on weekends, play video games, etc. I readily admit I am not giving my best effort, but I still have a 3.54 GPA at a well respected private college in Pennsylvania. (I go 1/2-3/4 depending on the year), and am considering a community college to get electives out of the way. What I am trying to say is, don't use the social life copout.
 
[quote name='speedracer']
The smart accounting majors I know are doubling up with a supply chain/IT management/statistics degree and are by far the hottest properties in the business school right now. They're an auditor's dream. The most recruited person I know is an accounting/IT management double major and she's accepted an offer for $80k to start with only an internship as experience.[/quote]

I knew there was a reason I have been itching to look into at least a minor in IT.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
And the living expenses in those important areas are astronomical. That just destroys your argument.[/QUOTE]

Well it's really just a lifestyle thing. Cost of living is high. But you can get by on lower salaries than you'd think if you don't mind living in smaller places and living a bit outside of the city.

But it is costly to live in major metropolitan areas. It's one of the many reasons I don't want kids--they're too expensive and I never want to live outside of a major metropolitan area after growing up in WV.

Without kids its easy to live alone (or with a girlfriend/wife) in a condo or town home in a metro area without having to make a ton of money. But yeah, if you want kids, and lifestyle with a house with a nice yard etc. then metro areas are tough to get buy in unless you do very well for yourself or be willing tg have a long commute. Though there are exceptions with a lot of good jobs moving to the suburbs--then you can just live a bit outside the suburb in a more rural area and drive 20-30 minutes to work.
 
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I just saw a commercial where they (colleges) admitted students have to adapt to colleges and that they are stuck on old principles. They vow to adapt to the students now.

Good thing they are doing that now AFTER I'm pretty much out. :roll:
 
That's definitely true from what I've experienced teaching college classes so far. It's just a growing symptom across all facets of society--people just have a sense of entitlement and it seems to be worse among younger generations. Probably because they grew up in solid economic times and were spoiled by parents who wanted to give them all the things they didn't have growing up etc.

So they're used to having everything handed to them without having to work hard, and then they bitch when their half assed or average efforts get D's and C's instead of A's when they get to college.
 
re: grade entitlement, English bitches need to stop crying. My physics classes are all bell curved to 2.8 and filled with 100+ people who were high school valedictorian, shit's brutal. I'm considering dropping physics as a major and doing just EE in order to have a more competitive GPA for lol school.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Hmm. My friend and your cousin have probably bumped into each other.

Yep. BS in Chemical Engineering. MS in Electrical Engineering and a JD in Patent Law or something like that. We compared debt levels. They were about the same except mine included a house.

Guy lives alone, dates infrequently, steals Wifi, torrents instead of buys, supervisor tells him to work harder every week or he is getting canned and eats a bunch of antidepressants daily.

As far as 55K with a wife and daughter, how big was their house? How much money did the wife make? How much debt did the couple have?[/QUOTE]

No debt that I'm aware of.. the wife was a school teacher but took maternity leave almost as soon as my cousin moved up there. They moved back to Louisiana after about 2 years because he couldn't stand the USPTO, he said they were painfully understaffed and had extremely unrealistic quotas that typically resulted in ~10 hrs/wk unpaid work.
 
I didn't need grades to tell me if I was doing good or not. I knew wayyyyyyy before it. This coming from a Subjective major in Industrial Design too.
 
Papers are a tough situation. I never have complained about a grade if I got you know, Bs on the tests or whatever and ended up with a B, I can see clearly what I did wrong and know that I deserve a B.

A lot of the problem with papers I got back from professors (and I wrote a lot in college) was that you'd get a "B-" slapped on top and that was it. No comment, or some inane comment like "Good B." My favorite professor in college wrote probably more than I did on my papers. He questioned my points, he wrote what he liked about what I wrote and what needed improvement. When I got a B- from him on a paper, I knew what I had done wrong.

That being said, I knew plenty of kids who would bitch and moan about getting a B from him even with the comments with the whole "I worked hard" argument. In our production classes, we often did live shoots for grades. You could spend all week working on a shoot only to have something catastrophic happen during the live shoot and your grade would suffer, but I learned a lot from that. Working hard certianly will improve your chances of success, but working hard without creating results is the same as being lazy without creating results. If you turned on the superbowl and couldn't tell what was going on half the time, even if the TV production crew spent all year preparing, it's a failure, and you'd likely be laid off. Our production teacher always said the only thing that matters is what the final product is, no one cares how it gets made. The same is true for papers, if you spent all week writing a paper that ends up completely incoherent or inaccurate, it doesn't deserve a good grade.
 
I think that's a separate issue, monsieur wow. Or, at least, wasn't addressed in the article. And it's something I totally agree about. The burden of work is on the student, and the burden of proof is on the professor to document what was good and what was bad. I actually write less on the excellent papers - but on bad papers, I'll document what needs to change, mark up grammar errors, and provide a summary of why they got the grade they did. I also have a pretty thorough rubric on my syllabi that documents what my standards are. Not exactly a safeguard against the ambiguity of the whole thing, but something I can point to to discuss grades.

That, and I'm balls deep in work right now b/c students have a paper due in a few days, and I told them (as I always do) that I'm happy to look over their work and provide a presubmission critique. With 100 students turning in 5-8 page papers, my weeks' been pretty busy thus far (and that ain't even the half of it). Some of the stuff I've read is quite good, and some of it is stunningly, stunningly, *stunningly* (like I can't comprehend what the fuck you're saying) bad.
 
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