The Great College Hoax

I know how that feels and I know how it feels to be that kid. It definitely has to do with K-12 grade instruction. We are told that education = grade advancement, and for more than half of the time we're in school ( 1-8th ) grades don't really matter for shit. You can easily pass classes without knowing anything simply by using the book to do work or studying the night before a test. I've been a B-A student all of my life and I haven't retained much of anything. That and working hard to us doesn't exactly mean working hard to understand the material, it more so means working hard to turn in work. I remember seeing a guy in a video who argued that people in private schools are used to such a curriculum and it's hard for those in public school to compete. But yeah, I know how it feels to work so damned hard but fucking fail. It's like, somebody throw me a rope.

He said that if students developed a genuine interest in their field, grades would take a back seat, and holistic and intrinsically motivated learning could take place.
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This is another problem. A HUGE problem. You can't expect students to do that in some classes. You just can't. I don't understand why you give someone 8 classes that they have to be deeply into to get good grades in. That's right, grades. So they can get the shit over with. To me it really highlights some issues with colleges and education systems period. The messed up thing is teachers either truly do not understand this or they simply don't care. They're teaching it, so they're obviously deep into it, and they don't understand that some people are mandated to take this shit and really don't want to.
 
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Ya I just really remember this a lot:
“Many students come in with the conviction that they’ve worked hard and deserve a higher mark,” Professor Grossman said. “Some assert that they have never gotten a grade as low as this before.”
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From my classes. Working hard != A good result
 
[quote name='mykevermin']http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/education/18college.html?_r=1

What do y'all think of this?[/quote]

I give you the lowest grade possible: an A-.

wormstrum.jpg
 
[quote name='camoor']The same is true of the workplace.

These damn kids don't know how good they have it, in my day...[/quote]

Thankfully, the recession will teach many humility.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Thankfully, the recession will teach many humility.[/QUOTE]

They'll take that humility right back to campus and assert their right to a "B."

...

...

...

...

#-o
 
I've never complained about a grade to a prof even though I'm very serious about my GPA. I actually, oh, you know, DO MY WORK AND STUDY? I think that's a foreign concept to a lot of college students these days. I also try to avoid asshole professors who are jerks about grading papers and other subjective forms of testing.

Another slice of amusement is when people boast how they did a paper the night before and then bitch to the professor about poor grades. Just about the best thing you can do for your grade on a paper besides fucking the prof is to get another intelligent person to proofread, preferably someone who isn't familiar with the material, to proofread and have the balls to say, "Hey, this doesn't make a lick of sense," and you can fine-tune your paper or completely revamp it in time and get a much better grade.
 
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This must apply to the humanities.

I don't know how someone could demand a good grade for an illogical math proof, incorrectly identified chemical composition, or broken computer program - that's one nice thing about the sciences.
 
[quote name='camoor']This must apply to the humanities.

I don't know how someone could demand a good grade for an illogical math proof, incorrectly identified chemical composition, or broken computer program - that's one nice thing about the sciences.[/quote]

Well you certainly can have problems with grades in math and sciences. Just because the answer might be more definite doesn't mean the question can't be written badly. Still plenty of humanity in the sciences.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/education/18college.html?_r=1

What do y'all think of this?[/QUOTE]

I think this is an inevitable consequence of trying to push everybody through a system that just isn't equipped for it, and I'm not talking about classroom sizes.

Yes, I'm sure some students have an unrealistic sense of entitlement, but has it occurred to anyone that the measures the system uses are not very useful?
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Another slice of amusement is when people boast how they did a paper the night before and then bitch to the professor about poor grades. Just about the best thing you can do for your grade on a paper besides fucking the prof is to get another intelligent person to proofread, preferably someone who isn't familiar with the material, to proofread and have the balls to say, "Hey, this doesn't make a lick of sense," and you can fine-tune your paper or completely revamp it in time and get a much better grade.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of taking this into a direction that's all about me, and all centered on me, and solely focused on me (that's dmaul's turf! ;), I'm totally suffering from this right now. I have a campus visit next week, my dissertation defense on Friday, and I'm swimming with emails from students. I've offered to read their papers prior to the due date to give them a feel for how they're doing. So I'm under dozens upon dozens of paper drafts right now because I said to turn it in by 3PM today (the draft, not the final). But I'm rewarding the "do it on the last day" behavior b/c it's due tomorrow. I am still quite young, and, as a result, very naive (you'd think it'd be the opposite - that I can more distinctly recall how lazy and opportunistic I was; but alas) - so I've learned my lesson as a result: if you want feedback from now on, submit it at least 7 days before the due date.

Shit's etched in my brain. :lol:

[quote name='rickonker']I think this is an inevitable consequence of trying to push everybody through a system that just isn't equipped for it, and I'm not talking about classroom sizes.

Yes, I'm sure some students have an unrealistic sense of entitlement, but has it occurred to anyone that the measures the system uses are not very useful?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I see a relationship between the proportion of poor students and those who negotiate those grades. Anecdotally (I know, I know), the most vociferous grade-negotiators are the "I can't believe I earned a B/C! I've never even earned an A-!" folks, not those who perform more poorly. Care to specify what you're trying to say?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I give you the lowest grade possible: an A-.[/QUOTE]
I thought the death clock got an A--, but it didn't put those whippersnappers in their place.
 
IMO nationally mandated grading would rule. You want accredition? Fine, curve every single one of your classes to 3.0.

Or alternatively, get rid of grades and just use class ranking.

"How are you doing?" "74th percentile"

Means a hell of a lot more than "3.6"

Students could no longer bitch, because instead of them saying "I worked harder than B-!" they'd be stuck with "well.. I guess half the class did better than me, so I should step up my game"
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']I've never complained about a grade to a prof even though I'm very serious about my GPA. I actually, oh, you know, DO MY WORK AND STUDY? I think that's a foreign concept to a lot of college students these days. I also try to avoid asshole professors who are jerks about grading papers and other subjective forms of testing.

Another slice of amusement is when people boast how they did a paper the night before and then bitch to the professor about poor grades. Just about the best thing you can do for your grade on a paper besides fucking the prof is to get another intelligent person to proofread, preferably someone who isn't familiar with the material, to proofread and have the balls to say, "Hey, this doesn't make a lick of sense," and you can fine-tune your paper or completely revamp it in time and get a much better grade.[/quote]

That is interesting. I always had my mother, a friend with strong English skills, or another professor proofread my writing. I never really thought of it like you put it, but it does make sense. They take the accuracy of the paper as a given and only look at the quality of the writing.
 
Actually, i've had teachers tell me they factor effort into grades. It usually isn't hard to tell how much time and effort was put into something. Someone who turns in a research report of a few pages probably didn't do much research. Hell, the two papers i did for my music appreciation class were 10 and 15 pages respectively. They weren't just long crappy papers of course.

In my English class the teacher would take into account if we had gotten help when we needed it. Meaning how much time we'd spent in the language lab at school getting help. Trying to promote good habits more than anything i guess.

One more thing, i get sick of teachers telling me GPA doesn't matter, if that were true, they wouldn't keep track of it. Tell the government my GPA isn't important.
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']I'm not sure I see a relationship between the proportion of poor students and those who negotiate those grades. Anecdotally (I know, I know), the most vociferous grade-negotiators are the "I can't believe I earned a B/C! I've never even earned an A-!" folks, not those who perform more poorly. Care to specify what you're trying to say?[/QUOTE]

Your anecdotal evidence fits what I'm trying to say. We're measuring performance by grades. There are poorly performing students who are used to bad grades and probably won't be begging for better grades all the time. Then there are the grade chasers who, for their entire lives, have been sent the message that getting As is the ultimate goal of their lives for as long as they're students. The students who have adapted themselves to this goal in high school get into college and try to do the same thing there. College professors will typically have different standards. When this fails, they understandably feel hurt.

Also, colleges were originally intended to teach, but their primary business now is to measure students, from grades to degrees. The entire school system now massively overvalues grades, particularly in high school and college, and maybe even in middle school. Grades now matter more than learning, so, again, of course students are going to be begging for better grades.
 
Not sure we need this discussion in two threads.

But the key is to have grades tied to learning.

And that's up tot he teachers/professors to have exams, papers, homework, group projects or whatever that truely tests whether students learned what they were supposed to in the class.

Do that and chasing grades is the same as chasing knowledge.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Not sure we need this discussion in two threads.

But the key is to have grades tied to learning.

And that's up tot he teachers/professors to have exams, papers, homework, group projects or whatever that truely tests whether students learned what they were supposed to in the class.

Do that and chasing grades is the same as chasing knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Do that and chasing grades is the same as chasing the specific knowledge the professor (or whoever else in the system) has deemed important.
 
[quote name='rickonker']Do that and chasing grades is the same as chasing the specific knowledge the professor (or whoever else in the system) has deemed important.[/QUOTE]

Of course, but that's all formal education ever will be or could be.

It's up to students to become life long learners and getting a good education gives them all the tools they need to do so.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Of course, but that's all formal education ever will be or could be.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and that's why universal, standardized grade-based formal education is a serious problem.
 
It wouldn't change with dropping grades.

If I teach and don't give grades I'm still only going to cover what I think is important in the class, while trying to give them a foundation that will help them in future classes in the field or in self leaning more in the field.

Greading how well they learned what I taught doesn't change that at all. And I don't see how a degree would be worth anything with out grades or some equivalent to indicated that people learned what they were supposed to and how well the learned it.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It wouldn't change with dropping grades.[/quote]Sure it would. It would obviously change the behavior of the students and the professor (and not only in negative ways, if that's what you're thinking).

If I teach and don't give grades I'm still only going to cover what I think is important in the class, while trying to give them a foundation that will help them in future classes in the field or in self leaning more in the field.

Greading how well they learned what I taught doesn't change that at all.
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Grades reduce flexibility, both for students and for teachers.
And I don't see how a degree would be worth anything with out grades or some equivalent to indicated that people learned what they were supposed to and how well the learned it.
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As I was saying in the other thread, I read this as, "I don't see how a set of grades would be worth anything without grades."
 
We'll have to agree to disagree.

Without grades I'd teach the same stuff the same ways I do now. I already teach what I think is important in the best way I can think of to get it across. So I wouldn't change a thing.

But I think students would pay much less attention than they already do if they weren't being graded or somehow assessed on how well they'd learned the material and how well they can apply it.

But I'll again give you last word on that if you insist, I have nothing more to add and my opinion isn't going to budge.
 
so I'm sitting here, kinda procrastinating and kinda studying for physics and calculus tests that are most likely going to kick my ass, so I am already bummed and then I read this article and I think about my wonderfully massive loans... I am totally fucked.
 
[quote name='dropbearGSH']so I'm sitting here, kinda procrastinating and kinda studying for physics and calculus tests that are most likely going to kick my ass, so I am already bummed and then I read this article and I think about my wonderfully massive loans... I am totally fucked.[/quote]

You can always drop out.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Ok, so companies should use experience to judge a job candidate instead of a degree. What if the applicant has no experience? Most college grads don't much if any experience, so their degree is all they have. Once they have experience, the degree becomes less and less important.[/quote]
Exactly!! I know 4 people who work for Human Resources for 4 different companies (2 of them are huge). Here's what they told me:

70% of people will get their jobs by who you know (and not an interview).

Most high paying government jobs require a 2-4 year degree. Other government jobs base it off of skill sets comparable to a degree.

If you are "fresh out of college" they (government and non) will ask for your college records, it's usually because they are going to "low-ball" you on pay. They know you're desperate. But you can still negotiate. I was told this before the "economic crisis."

Most of the time, they (HR) do not even check to verify you have a degree (they sort of take your "word" for it, which floored me when I was told that by 3 of them). However, they do like to see transcipts (to put a copy in your records, but they have no way of verifying it for accuracy themselves unless they contact the database company which handles schools or call/email the school directly, which both are too time consuming and they still might not get verification).

Background checks are required (and done to make sure you are not a criminal or have something that could embarrass the company, but other than that, that's it).

I asked ALL of them what if someone came in with a "fake/doctored" degree. I was told eventually they would get caught once they moved up within the company and start dealing with "financial responsibilities" (payroll, business/travel cards, etc), but then again maybe not.

In a nutshell, basically they all said, once "you're in, you're in" and if you "kick ass" hard enough and the "right people (higher ups)" like you, they seem to look over little things like LYING ABOUT COLLEGE! 2 of them have told me this has happened quite a few times. To this day, it still stuns me.
 
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[quote name='Space Cowboy YGI']Exactly!! I know 4 people who work for Human Resources for 4 different companies (2 of them are huge). Here's what they told me:

70% of people will get their jobs by who you know (and not an interview).

Most high paying government jobs require a 2-4 year degree. Other government jobs base it off of skill sets comparable to a degree.

If you are "fresh out of college" they (government and non) will ask for your college records, it's usually because they are going to "low-ball" you on pay. They know you're desperate. But you can still negotiate. I was told this before the "economic crisis."

Most of the time, they (HR) do not even check to verify you have a degree (they sort of take your "word" for it, which floored me when I was told that by 3 of them). However, they do like to see transcipts (to put a copy in your records, but they have no way of verifying it for accuracy themselves unless they contact the database company which handles schools or call/email the school directly).

Background checks are required (and done to make sure you are not a criminal or have something that could embarrass the company, but other than that, that's it).

I asked ALL of them what if someone came in with a "fake/doctored" degree. I was told eventually they would get caught once they moved up within the company and start dealing with "financial responsibilities" (payroll, business/travel cards, etc), but then again maybe not.

In a nutshell, basically they all said, once "you're in, you're in" and if you "kick ass" hard enough and the "right people (higher ups)" like you, they seem to look over little things like LYING ABOUT COLLEGE! 2 of them have told me this has happened quite a few times. To this day, it still stuns me.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting about that, Space Cowboy.

I don't understand why it stuns you, though. It's perfectly rational to ignore mostly meaningless degrees and focus on actual results. If you just meant the lying part, I kind of understand.
 
Yeah, my buddy told me a funny story that they had a guy working for them like 7 years and he had lied about college (he never went).

He got caught because they hired someone who actually went to the same college he "supposedly" did and graduated at the same time.

About a few months later, the new guy "questioned his education". I take it the guy didn't know anything about the place (the bars, people, streets, etc). Anyway, the guy got caught, but everyone "vouched" for him and he got to stay. However, they (HR) had to go through EVERY SINGLE employee to verify education. Well, to make a long story short, 23 had lied, 5 were "let go" (he thinks it's because they were either "slackers" or not liked).

Funny thing is, after that fiasco, they started checking for about a year, then went about it as they have before (it became too expensive).
 
[quote name='Space Cowboy YGI']Yeah, my buddy told me a funny story that they had a guy working for them like 7 years and he had lied about college (he never went).

He got caught because they hired someone who actually went to the same college he "supposedly" did and graduated at the same time.

About a few months later, the new guy "questioned his education". I take it the guy didn't know anything about the place (the bars, people, streets, etc). Anyway, the guy got caught, but everyone "vouched" for him and he got to stay. However, they (HR) had to go through EVERY SINGLE employee to verify education. Well, to make a long story short, 23 had lied, 5 were "let go" (he thinks it's because they were either "slackers" or not liked).

Funny thing is, after that fiasco, they started checking for about a year, then went about it as they have before (it became too expensive).[/QUOTE]
That's awesome. 23 sounds like a lot, out of how many is that approx.?
 
[quote name='dropbearGSH']so I'm sitting here, kinda procrastinating and kinda studying for physics and calculus tests that are most likely going to kick my ass, so I am already bummed and then I read this article and I think about my wonderfully massive loans... I am totally fucked.[/QUOTE]
you can do useful things with physics & calculus.. most discussion in this thread about college not being worth loans is regarding all the folks getting BA's or soft science degrees
 
[quote name='Koggit']you can do useful things with physics & calculus.. most discussion in this thread about college not being worth loans is regarding all the folks getting BA's or soft science degrees[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but what you didn't mention, and what dropbearGSH has to ask himself, is then whether all that debt is worth learning physics and calculus at the college he's attending now vs. somewhere else, such as at a cheaper college or outside of college entirely.
 
I'll say it again, as much as I support education there's not reason to go into big debt for undergrad. If you don't have scholarships or rich parents, go to the best state school that you can go to in state for cheap.

Major in something useful if a job right after is your goal, if not just get good grades and experience and you can get paid to go to grad school out of state at a top program for whatever field. Unless you want to do something like medicine, law, an MBA etc.--those grad programs don't often fund since you're expected to make big bucks and be able to pay back loans after you get done.
 
[quote name='rickonker']Yeah, but what you didn't mention, and what dropbearGSH has to ask himself, is then whether all that debt is worth learning physics and calculus at the college he's attending now vs. somewhere else, such as at a cheaper college or outside of college entirely.[/QUOTE]


no.. that isn't what he has to ask himself at all. so long as it isn't a terrible financial decision, which is very unlikely considering what he's studying, then all that matters is that he's happy.
 
[quote name='Koggit']no.. that isn't what he has to ask himself at all. so long as it isn't a terrible financial decision, which is very unlikely considering what he's studying, then all that matters is that he's happy.[/QUOTE]
And extra debt doesn't affect your happiness at all...right...
 
"extra" debt? whatever man. i'm not interested in your bullshit so i'm gonna change the subject completely: say he's gonna be $100,000 in debt now and could have the same life sans debt some other way. what difference does it make? he'll just be worrying about some non-debt thing. it's all relative. you can bet your ass Bill Gates worries just as much as the guy struggling to pay his rent. doesn't matter. the guy in mexico worrying about his contaminated well water experiences the same emotions as the wall street banker worrying about his investments. it's all relative -- everyone is happy, everyone is sad, everyone is stressed.

make the best of every situation: as americans we're extremely fortunate and even those of us who are relatively unfortunate have a lot to be happy about. if he isn't happy about his college experience, he'll be happy about something else. if he doesn't regret his college experience, he'll regret something else. just live -- it's quite the ride.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'll say it again, as much as I support education there's not reason to go into big debt for undergrad. If you don't have scholarships or rich parents, go to the best state school that you can go to in state for cheap.

Major in something useful if a job right after is your goal, if not just get good grades and experience and you can get paid to go to grad school out of state at a top program for whatever field. Unless you want to do something like medicine, law, an MBA etc.--those grad programs don't often fund since you're expected to make big bucks and be able to pay back loans after you get done.[/quote]

I was looking at undergraduate costs recently... and wow! They've gone up quite a bit since I went to school.

The University of California Schools are now charging ~9K on average per year; for me, it was ~4K at the start and ~6K at the end.

Scholarships are down as well; Now UC Regents Scholarships give you only ~2K to ~3K per year; For me, I got full tuition/fees guaranteed x 4 years.

Housing is ridiculous: UCLA lists their triples as $10K/year -- thats 3 people in a 180 sq ft room... Yikes! ...you do get a meal plan, but still, WOW! I wish that I owned a student housing complex in Westwood... then I could stop feigning empathy for people in medicine.

Plus California is an expensive place to live! So even at a state school (albeit the UC system is better than the majority of other Universities private or public around the USA), you can end up spending 30K/yr to attend!!!!
http://www.fao.ucla.edu/fao_information_costs.htm

Private Schools like USC are even worse:
http://www.usc.edu/admission/fa/applying_receiving/undergraduates/costs.html
52K per year estimated cost of attendence... just another reason why UCLA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USC!

With a full Regents scholarship plus other merit based awards, I just ended up paying for parking, textbooks, and lab fees to attend college... probably a grand total of ~2K... (which my parents covered fully)... yes, parking and textbooks were expensive!!!!
 
[quote name='Koggit']no.. that isn't what he has to ask himself at all. so long as it isn't a terrible financial decision, which is very unlikely considering what he's studying, then all that matters is that he's happy.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't sound like he's particularly happy either.
 
and noone is gonna be 100% happy. obviously he's in school, obviously that was his choice. his choice is inherently the right one for him -- always is, that's the beauty of choice.

note i'm not gonna tell rickonker to go to school, despite that being the right choice for me... his choice is the right one for him.
 
[quote name='BigT']I was looking at undergraduate costs recently... and wow! They've gone up quite a bit since I went to school.

The University of California Schools are now charging ~9K on average per year; for me, it was ~4K at the start and ~6K at the end.
[/QUOTE]

They have gone up everywhere, but keep in mind that that's CA with the most fucked budget of any state.

In state tution increases haven't been quite that drastic in most state schools.
 
I haven't read this thread in months, but since my situation has changed I'll post an update:

Family's Annual Income: $35,000-$40,000/yr
College Tuition: $32,000/yr
Rent/Bills (Last Year): $12,000/yr
Food (Last Year): $1,500/yr

Graduated 12/2008 with a 2.8 GPA, starting Graduate School in 1/2009 at about $3,000 per class.
Total Debt (to date): ~$140,000

Despite the above, I beat out about 280 other applicants and have a job worth $51,000/yr plus benefits. I will still live as cheap as I did in college (paying $400 in rent now sharing a 3-bdrm house), and pay off my debt for 7-10 years, but will maintain full benefits, spare spending cash, the company pays for grad school, and work an additional 30+ years beyond that finishing my career at over six-figures in salary, in additional to any professional achievements in engineering (as opposed to employee of the month that some people get to settle for).

I know some of you are arguing education versus cost, but quite frankly, it takes about as much as it does to manage a mortgage as it does the above college debt, and all of you WILL have a mortgage at some point, so I don't really see the argument of "too much debt" when it comes to education.

All of you will be working for some 40+ years of your life, you might as well improve the quality of those years with an education instead of avoiding the debt you're eventually going to want to take on anyway when you want your own home (which I don't want or need right now, since I'm 23.)

~HotShotX
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']No but it stops it from growing.[/quote]

Aside from interest, you are correct.

If the person is taking calculus, he or she is a freshman.

I don't see a student 45K in the hole in the first year even at a tier 1 college.
 
[quote name='D_Icon']So is a B.A in Psychology a waste?[/QUOTE]

Unless you plan on getting an advanced degree with it, I'd say any of the soft sciences are.
 
[quote name='HotShotX']

All of you will be working for some 40+ years of your life, you might as well improve the quality of those years with an education instead of avoiding the debt you're eventually going to want to take on anyway when you want your own home (which I don't want or need right now, since I'm 23.)
[/QUOTE]

Well the one flaw with that logic is yeah pretty much everyone will have a mortgage to pay off, but people with lots of student loan debt have that to deal with AND an eventual mortgage to pay off.

But at the end of the day as long as you can manage the debt and got degrees which will let you pay it off easily etc. like you did then it's worth it to get a job that pays well and you like doing etc. Again not for everyone others are happier taking other life paths and there are plenty of options out there.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
If the person is taking calculus, he or she is a freshman.
[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. A lot of colleges have pre-requisits to take before Calculus and have a math proficiency test you can take to get them waived--my Calculus class was a mix of freshman and upper classmen. Plus people change majors after a couple years and have to take something like that which wasn't required in their original major etc.
 
[quote name='lordwow']Unless you plan on getting an advanced degree with it, I'd say any of the soft sciences are.[/quote]

And most of the hard sciences such as Biology, Chemistry, Biochemistry or Physics. A BA/BS in any of those fields all but guarantees you the
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Not necessarily. A lot of colleges have pre-requisits to take before Calculus and have a math proficiency test you can take to get them waived--my Calculus class was a mix of freshman and upper classmen. Plus people change majors after a couple years and have to take something like that which wasn't required in their original major etc.[/quote]

Yeah, they're high school courses like Trigonometry and Pre-Calculus.

And I'm inferring a lot...
If somebody changes their major, it is usually after an epiphany and he or she will redouble his or her efforts because the person actually works harder. For example, my GPA for my Biology degree was ~2.7 with 30 hours of "rounding" classes such as Spanish and English Lit while my GPA for my Computer Science degree with 9 hours of "rounding" classes such as Linear Algebra, Discrete Math and Probability & Statistics was between 3.5 and 3.6. People changing course into a field requiring Calculus shouldn't be lost on the first wave of courses or they should simply accept the field isn't for them. The only people I've met taking Physics and Calculus at the same time were freshmen engineers or math/physics majors. I took Physics my junior year, but I was done with Calculus III my third semester and everything after Organic Chemistry my sophomore year was a cakewalk.
 
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