The libertarian's guide to externality costing. What do we do about the oil spill?

Who can plausibly argue that BP is not responsible here? Cmon this is crazy, they're paying out $20 bill in damages. It should be increased if it needs to be though.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Who can plausibly argue that BP is not responsible here? Cmon this is crazy, they're paying out $20 bill in damages. It should be increased if it needs to be though.[/QUOTE]

No one will "argue", but that doesn't mean congressional ninnies in BP's pockets and others won't say or do anything to obfuscate culpability and confuse the real issues.
 
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So, you're purposing a legal system where, instead of courts and such, one man gets to determine the fate of the accused?

Good Plan...
judge_obama.jpg
 
Well hang on, certain people on this forum had absolutely no problem with ACORN getting defunded based on some entrapment shit. No 'legal system' or whatever the fuck you're suddenly interested in.

Keep fighting the good fight though, BP needs someone to shill for them on these forums.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Well hang on, certain people on this forum had absolutely no problem with ACORN getting defunded based on some entrapment shit. No 'legal system' or whatever the fuck you're suddenly interested in.

Keep fighting the good fight though, BP needs someone to shill for them on these forums.[/QUOTE]

There was a congressman (Barton?) who conflated a single person (innocent at that) with a giant conglomerate that was A) Actually responsible and B) Undeniably negligent. Like I said, no one will actually argue against A or B but will instead try to confuse things by saying how bad it would be if the government brought pressure on a single innocent person.

Apples to crack rock in my opinion.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Well hang on, certain people on this forum had absolutely no problem with ACORN getting defunded based on some entrapment shit. No 'legal system' or whatever the fuck you're suddenly interested in.

Keep fighting the good fight though, BP needs someone to shill for them on these forums.[/QUOTE]

Oddly enough, I have no problems with the government not giving BP (or virtually any other corporation) taxpayer funds.

And I must have missed the part where Obama called Lewis into his office and threatened her until she paid up $20 Billion. You have a link to that news story?

Not giving someone free money is a lot different than making them give you money.
 
I missed the part where Obama 'threatened' BP and 'made them' give the victims of the oil spill money. You have a link to that news story?

Would you characterize the $20 bill as a shakedown? Pauvre BP....
 
Now, I'll honestly admit, I'm just speculating, but shortly after the AG announces that he's looking into criminal charges against BP executives, Obama calls a meeting with BP executives and has the AG present. At the end of this closed door meeting (lol open administration), BP walks out with a wallet $20 Billion lighter...

I'm sure Obama just showed sad pictures of oil covered wildlife.
 
Re: Funds from the $20 billion can't be "double dipped" by people volunteering to help clean.

I have a hard time justifying that someone who (using small numbers here just for the sake of argument) could file a claim of $20,000 being pissed that they could do a different type of work and still get paid $20,000 (perhaps even more if it works out that way) and be working to help their industry get back on track at the same time. Crying foul about not getting paid twice is just kind of low brow. Then again, I think civic pride still means something other than having a coffee can for a muffler and a rear fin that goes over the top of the vehicle... Call me naive if you must.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Now, I'll honestly admit, I'm just speculating, but shortly after the AG announces that he's looking into criminal charges against BP executives, Obama calls a meeting with BP executives and has the AG present. At the end of this closed door meeting (lol open administration), BP walks out with a wallet $20 Billion lighter...

I'm sure Obama just showed sad pictures of oil covered wildlife.[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking the fact it was a closed door meeting is really just as transparent as if it was open, though. You still seem to feel like you know exactly what happenned, so that's definately an "open administration" lol
 
[quote name='nasum']Re: Funds from the $20 billion can't be "double dipped" by people volunteering to help clean.

I have a hard time justifying that someone who (using small numbers here just for the sake of argument) could file a claim of $20,000 being pissed that they could do a different type of work and still get paid $20,000 (perhaps even more if it works out that way) and be working to help their industry get back on track at the same time. Crying foul about not getting paid twice is just kind of low brow. Then again, I think civic pride still means something other than having a coffee can for a muffler and a rear fin that goes over the top of the vehicle... Call me naive if you must.[/QUOTE]
Except one thing, cleaning up this toxic mess that BP caused is a hell of a lot more dangerous than fishing. I guarantee that many of the people who have participated are going to have health problems for years to come, who is going to pay for that? BP acts like they're doing these folks a favor by hiring them to clean up, some favor.
 
[quote name='Clak']Except one thing, cleaning up this toxic mess that BP caused is a hell of a lot more dangerous than fishing. I guarantee that many of the people who have participated are going to have health problems for years to come, who is going to pay for that? BP acts like they're doing these folks a favor by hiring them to clean up, some favor.[/QUOTE]
It is, to many, better than going unemployed. Still, that doesn't mean it's not worth extra because of the adherent risks.

Fishing in the gulf is not Alaskan crab fishing. The risks are low; Cleaning up an oil spill can be very risky. Anything to do with oil can be risky; That fact is kind of what got us here.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']How do you stop an oil leak when there isn't a broken pipe?[/QUOTE]
Based on the liberal use of chemicals so far, I'm guessing covering the sea floor with super glue.
 
[quote name='Clak']Based on the liberal use of chemicals so far, I'm guessing covering the sea floor with super glue.[/QUOTE]
If there's one thing my mother taught me, it's that glue and water don't stick.
 
I wonder when Obama is going to put on his spandex suit with US Flag cape, fly down to the gulf and save us all.

The government will fix it. Don't worry guys. They've got this all under control.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']As soon as the Dems can figure out how to tax nature, stuff like this won't be a problem.[/QUOTE]
This doesn't even seem relevant.

I get the libtard bashing, but really out of context.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/19/AR2010071902220_pf.html
The hearing did produce some new details.

One witness described how BP mixed a large quantity of two chemicals and injected them into the well to flush out drilling mud. But the chemicals aren't usually mixed together, and the injection of more than 400 barrels of dense, gray fluid were about double the quantity normally used for the task, said Leo Lindner, a drilling fluid specialist for contractor M-I Swaco.

The reason for the action: BP had hundreds of barrels of the two chemicals on hand and needed to dispose of it, Lindner testified. By first flushing it into the well, the company could take advantage of an exemption in an environmental law that otherwise would have prohibited the discharge of the hazardous waste into the gulf, he said.

"It's not something we've ever done before," he said.
Click to expand...
Holy fucking shit.

How exactly does the magical free market unicorn fix something like that?
Ronnie Penton, an attorney for one of the rig workers, said in an interview after the hearing that the double-sized dose of fluid skewed a crucial test of pressure in the well just hours before the blowout. Based on the test BP concluded it was safe to continue displacing the heavy mud from the well in favor of much lighter sea water.
Click to expand...
So the bullshit test conducted to dispose of toxic chemicals provided the testing cover to continue with a dangerous operation. You can't make this shit up.
The skirmish was the first of what could be several tests for the government panel. Two key BP officials who had been scheduled to testify this week canceled for medical reasons, including Donald Vidrine, one of the Deepwater Horizon's "company men," as those who represent BP on rigs are known.
Click to expand...
Oh look. Everyone is suddenly ill during investigational panels.
A BP audit of the rig in September found 390 maintenance issues that had not been resolved, BP lawyer Richard Godfrey said while questioning Bertone. Godfrey said the auditors estimated that it would take 3,545 hours to make repairs.
Click to expand...
Surprise!

What the fuck else could possibly come out? They killed a bunch of workers. They dump toxic chemicals to evade environmental regulation. They break every safety rule in the book. Their containment strategy is complete bullshit. They lie about the magnitude of the accident over and over and over. They spill 100+ million gallons of oil that affects 5 states. They pressure governments to release terrorists that killed hundreds of people. Their other plants have had safety accidents that were preventable that killed people.

They need the market equivalent of the death penalty. Their executives should be in prison. Their managers on the ground should be in prison.
 
It sucks that this leak had to happen to teach us a valuable lesson: We need to create at least three new departments/bureaucracies in government with at least 15,000 new oversight and regulatory employees just to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Better still, such a maneuver can be sold as a jobs creation bill.
 
So when regulation and oversight aren't enough, the answer is to stop doing anything at all and just hope the magical forces force companies into being responsible.
 
[quote name='Clak']So when regulation and oversight aren't enough, the answer is to stop doing anything at all and just hope the magical forces force companies into being responsible.[/QUOTE]

No. This BP spill is a very fringe example of a very rare accident. My sarcasm is meant to indicate that even though this event will be used for a reason to create more government, it shouldn't.

Just like if an asteroid smashed into Earth, many politicians would try to grow Nasa by 10x to prevent it from happening again, which is totally assinine.

There is a point where the cost of the 'woulda coulda shoulda' hypotheticals far outweigh the statistical occurrence of a problem.


In other words, this is one of the rare issues in which I think both sides are wrong. This event doesn't "prove" we need to do anything. Every catastrophe doesn't always need to be followed up with preventative legislation. We have learned nothing from the Patriot Act.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Weird. If this was a terrorist incident this event would absolutely be used to create more government.[/QUOTE]

You're right. And that would be just as wrong.
 
So how many times does something like this have to happen before you feel something should be done? Not just this particular spill, or even oil related disasters, just environmental disasters period. I suppose that back in the 60s you would have said something like "burning rivers are a rare occurrence, no need to act on it."

At just what point do we stop watching this shit continue to happen and do something to prevent it? All these years of environmental regulations and awareness, and we still let companies like BP get away with it. Yet I don't think that stepping back and acting like the market will handle it is the solution. If anything companies need to know that there will be severe penalties for anyone pulling the shit that BP has. I don't just mean the company paying out money either, I mean people directly involved being criminally prosecuted.
 
[quote name='speedracer']How exactly does the magical free market unicorn fix something like that?

Their executives should be in prison. Their managers on the ground should be in prison.[/QUOTE]

You answered your own question.

There will be a dollar amount to the damages BP caused. BP will resist. Their apologists will claim BP shouldn't be held responsible for their actions. Good or scared of a Southern revolt leaders will force them to pay.

We have enough testimony to go after their neglect. Cut the low level workers some deals and put their bosses and their bosses' bosses away for many years.

EDIT: Any idea how many maintenance issues are unresolved for all of those other offshore drilling platforms?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Well if it's hard to catch a criminal, just make whatever they did legal. Problem solved.[/QUOTE]

When did this become the immigration thread?
 
When did this become the "defend a giant corporation fucking up the environment for decades to come with countless other tragedies, lost lives, businesses ruined, but let's still make fun of Obama" thread?

Oh, right. The first page.
 
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