The libertarian's guide to externality costing. What do we do about the oil spill?

[quote name='perdition(troy']need a tissue hombre?[/QUOTE]

I'm convinced. You're right. Government needs to stay out of it. Thanks for the thoughtful, compelling arguments from you and knoell. So deeply thought out, I'm finding myself at a loss for words why more people don't consider you intellectual peers.
 
Water isn't alive, myke.

That's the Republican standard for scientific thought.

You guys continue defending that giant corporate dick up your asses, the BP branded head thrusting right up next to your brains.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Don't worry guys the government has its own command center. Gummint will fix it.[/QUOTE]
People need to stop thinking there's only two routes; government and BP.
There's a medium between the two. Both will fix it, or suffer consequences.
Both. The lack of enforced regulation, federal oversight, and response on the part of the federal government makes them responsible. The entire debacle being the aftereffect of BP's horrible decisions and mismanagement makes them responsible.

The Feds fucked up, and so did BP. They both should fix it; but it's still the Fed's job to make sure it doesn't happen again. Stop with this "OH GOD REGULATION IS BAD" bullshit.

And definitely stop trying to downplay the event like a corporate shill. The fact it even happened once when it shouldn't of happened at all is enough to say there should be more regulation. It's not that it happens oh so rarely, it's that it happens. The fact this kind of shit happens when it really was completely avoidable is an immense problem.

Also, NASA needs more funding right now, and 10x the funding wouldn't hurt. 10x the funding NASA receives right now would still be a teensy eensy little bit, so don't bring up NASA into this. Really, NASA is the only part of this country I'm still proud of.
 
I've never gone to BP in the 1st place (one near me has higher prices than others). I've never been in a situation where my only choice was BP and I desperately needed gas.

So, no.
 
Does WaWa offer gas?

side note: I'm hella excited to be moving near WaWa stores, in no small part so I can say "hey, do you need anything from WaWa?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Question: have any of you gone out of your way to stop buying anything BP?[/QUOTE]

We used to go to the BP, we were going to stop, but then the station dropped BP and it was the only one around, so they kind of did it for us...

Probably impossible to not pay them indirectly anyway though. We buy gas from Sheetz now since it's cheap and in a pretty good spot (pretty good food too).

Wawa has good food too, and I imagine their gas is gas. We avoided the Wawa for gas back in VA because it was in a terrible spot and was always crowded. Got food sometimes though.
 
aw dude you're so lucky.

yeah wawa usually offers the cheapest gas, not every wawa offers gas though, unfortunately.

sidenote: from an environmental standpoint they're almost always compliant, moreso than any other gas station company i've seen.

yeah it's hoagiefest too, and they're coffee is amazing. you're about to experience the heaven that is wawa brah.
 
I had that discussion with a former professor of mine, she wanted to avoid anything BP, but she didn't know how oil and gasoline are really distributed. It's why those ads about why one company's fuel is better than another is bullshit. One company puts in x number of barrels of oil into the pipeline in one area, and pulls out the same amount of oil in another area. By the time you get the fuel, you can't even say really which company it came from. Boycotting BP stations would likely just hurt the people who own them. That said, I don't go to BP stations because they're usually the most expensive in town.
 
BP pulled out of the retail station business, all of the BP stores are locally owned shops. They don't even all recieve BP gas, it depends on who the supplier is for the area.
 
Exactly, you don't know where the fuel is coming from or where the oil that was used to make it came from.
 
[quote name='Clak']So how many times does something like this have to happen before you feel something should be done? Not just this particular spill, or even oil related disasters, just environmental disasters period. I suppose that back in the 60s you would have said something like "burning rivers are a rare occurrence, no need to act on it."

At just what point do we stop watching this shit continue to happen and do something to prevent it? All these years of environmental regulations and awareness, and we still let companies like BP get away with it. Yet I don't think that stepping back and acting like the market will handle it is the solution. If anything companies need to know that there will be severe penalties for anyone pulling the shit that BP has. I don't just mean the company paying out money either, I mean people directly involved being criminally prosecuted.[/QUOTE]

Two questions for you:

1) Besides the Valdez, what epic clusterfuck of an environmental disaster can you name in this country in the last 30 years? How many do YOU think is too many? One? If that's the case then the only clear answer is to totally nationalize the oil industry like Mexico has, and even then - when they have an accident, what's the answer then? More taxing? More money? Hire more people to oversee the industry? How many is too many? Should we continue on until we have 3 to 4 over-paid government workers staring down each well 24/7?

2) You seem to feel BP is criminally negligent. That very well may be the case. But if so, how exactly do you PREVENT this sort of thing from happening again? What specifically did BP do wrong that would have been PREVENTED if we had more government oversight? Or do you just propose that we make blanket laws that say no matter who's fault it is, if a disaster happens, the oil company gets fined into oblivion?

[quote name='mykevermin']Question: have any of you gone out of your way to stop buying anything BP?[/QUOTE]

How exactly do you do that? BP stations are locally owned. Boycott them and all you accomplish is you boycott your precious poor little guy you advocate keeping taxes high to take care of. BP, along with all the other oil company's, are mixed together and scattered around in products and gas stations beyond traceability.

About the only way you could truly boycott BP is to boycott any product with oil in it. Good luck with that.
 
Exactly, which is why the market works. If you don't support a company, you just stop buying their product and they'll change their ways or die out, simple as that. Freedom.
 
If it's the oil company's fault like in this case, sure, fine the hell out of them. If the MMS had been doing it's job they should have caught all the corners that BP cut which most likely led to this happening. I don't even think it's an issue of more oversight, but better oversight.

But yes, one massive cluster fuck like this or the Valdez is too many. Ask the people directly effected by this one just how many is too many.
 
[quote name='Clak']If it's the oil company's fault like in this case, sure, fine the hell out of them. If the MMS had been doing it's job they should have caught all the corners that BP cut which most likely led to this happening. I don't even think it's an issue of more oversight, but better oversight.

But yes, one massive cluster fuck like this or the Valdez is too many. Ask the people directly effected by this one just how many is too many.[/QUOTE]

I'm not really disagreeing. But until it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that more regulation would have prevented this 'accident', this whole discussion is kind of wading in the deep-end.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Maybe we should nationalize the oil wealth in this country.[/QUOTE]

Maybe we should stop subsidizing oil and highways and let the market fix itself. By that, I mean let people realize bullet trains and NEVs are safer and more sustainable than eight lanes of asphalt glory.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm not really disagreeing. But until it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that more regulation would have prevented this 'accident', this whole discussion is kind of wading in the deep-end.[/QUOTE]

Come on, guy.

This accident occurred while there were hundreds of unresolved maintenance issues.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Question: have any of you gone out of your way to stop buying anything BP?[/QUOTE]

I get my gas from a local gas station chain located in my city. Didn't get gas from BP before this happened, probably won't change anything now either.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Question: have any of you gone out of your way to stop buying anything BP?[/QUOTE]

Used to buy from BP occasionally before the accident. I haven't been back since. Shell gets most of my business at the moment with Speedway in a distant second.
 
What's sad is the number of people who think "more regulation" is the key, when history shows that our government will either create more regulation then not bother to enforce it or create more regulation, then exempt the bigger players from inspection/enforcement.

More regulation won't work with our current lineup of clowns and fools in the government.

[quote name='mykevermin']Question: have any of you gone out of your way to stop buying anything BP?[/QUOTE]

Better question - since, as so many have pointed out, you can't be certain if you're getting BP gas or not - How many of you have gone out of your way to cut down on gas consumption? Started biking to work? Dug out ye ol' manual lawn mower?
 
What sucks is that if we don't buy BP gas, there won't be any money to pay for the clean up. If they declare bankruptcy, the rest of us are on the hook for the bill.

Sounds like the definition of a Catch-22.

As for using less gas, I'm all for that. I can't wait to start taking the train when it's up and running...in 2015.
 
[quote name='depascal22']As for using less gas, I'm all for that. I can't wait to start taking the train when it's up and running...in 2015.[/QUOTE]

Bikes are available for purchase now at your local Walmart.
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...08534140.html?mod=WSJ_article_LatestHeadlines

At 7:10 p.m., BP's two top officials on the rig met near the spot where the pipe comes out of the water and through the rig's floor. They discussed the high pressure, according to the investigative panel, which has been gathering evidence for two months. Transocean rig workers, according to the panel, offered an explanation that didn't raise an alarm.

That employees of Transocean, the rig's owner, might not have realized the seriousness of the situation—and may have misunderstood the data from the well—could shift some scrutiny onto that company. Most of the spotlight so far has fallen on BP, which owned the well and hired Transocean to drill it.
Click to expand...

Now this is interesting. All we hear for is Tony's head on a stick. We don't hear much about the other various companies involved with this failed project - which include Transocean, Haliburton and our own Federal Government. While I don't expect to hear much in the way of that last group, I'm looking forward to seeing where these other two groups come into play.
 
Philly.

I've truthfully put as much effort into selecting a scooter as I did into that last post. The intent to get one to replace a car is there, but the time to look into models is not. Heard good things about Genius (?) models, and I'm a little let down the Bajaj Chetak isn't made anymore.
 
[quote name='depascal22']If they declare bankruptcy, the rest of us are on the hook for the bill. [/QUOTE]

We're already on the hook for the bill. If BP were to declare bankruptcy, the assets could be consumed by the government and the wealth could be redistributed towards the victims.

As it is now, BP will spend as much money as possible in the court system to delay restitution for as long as possible.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Come on, guy.

This accident occurred while there were hundreds of unresolved maintenance issues.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure? I've been all over the net looking for the "real reasons". They are all over the place. More than likely it was due to a number of issues, maybe maintenance contributed, but it's pretty clear that aggressive drilling and ignoring a few warning signs was up there with the causes too.
 
[quote name='depascal22']What sucks is that if we don't buy BP gas, there won't be any money to pay for the clean up. If they declare bankruptcy, the rest of us are on the hook for the bill.

Sounds like the definition of a Catch-22.

As for using less gas, I'm all for that. I can't wait to start taking the train when it's up and running...in 2015.[/QUOTE]

The government should subsidize trains! that way more people will be able to get from here to there without using so much of that evil gas! I mean it works for europe and japan, it must work for us!....oh wait... http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6146
 
Well if more/better regulation isn't the answer, and taking the opposite hands-off approach I don't think will work either, the only other answer I can think of is to stop off-shore oil drilling.

I'm not holding my breathe.
 
Off-shore drilling, especially the deep stuff, is only really being aggressively pursued because land expanding land drilling within our border isn't really an option.

I agree we'd be much better off to put a stop to off-shore drilling and allow some regulated land drilling expansion. And, if there is an accident, it's several orders of magnitude easier to deal with and clean up.
 
[quote name='dorino']Are you still trying to say this was a fluke, thrustbucket?[/QUOTE]

Obviously not. I mean, look at the other major oil spills just like this all over the US coastline.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Obviously not. I mean, look at the other major oil spills just like this all over the US coastline.[/QUOTE]
As I've said, one is more than it should of been. This was all preventable, and therefore not a fluke that was out of anyone's hands.
 
If there was plenty of oil in some uninhabited area of the country, I'd have no problem with drilling for oil there, problem is that never seems to be the case. Instead we want to drill in a protected wildlife area. And I have to say, after this, I think is about the worst answer we could come up with.
 
It's been proven that with the proper regulation that oil can be drilled in wildlife areas with nearly 0 affect on the environment. We just don't have the political stomach to make the Moose ever have to see a pipe in their lives.

@dorino, Every single traffic accident that occurs is preventable to, if you want to play it like that.
 
This shit is dangerous, period. Doesn't matter where it is, land or water, when something goes wrong it's going to be bad. Drilling around inhabited areas is just a bad idea.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']It's been proven that with the proper regulation that oil can be drilled in wildlife areas with nearly 0 affect on the environment. We just don't have the political stomach to make the Moose ever have to see a pipe in their lives.[/QUOTE]

But you guys are against any regulation every time it comes up. Something about the free market.

As for bike riding, riding a bike from the far Southside to downtown Indy is a death sentence. This is the most alternative-transportation hating city in the country at the moment.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The government should subsidize trains! that way more people will be able to get from here to there without using so much of that evil gas! I mean it works for europe and japan, it must work for us!....oh wait... http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6146[/QUOTE]

"Since 1972 Amtrak has received more than $13 billion of federal subsidies."

$520 million per YEAR in subsidies for a more efficient form of transportation. (The article was published in 1997.)

http://ask.yahoo.com/20040507.html

"According to this piece in the Seattle Times, Americans used 8.93 million barrels of gasoline a day in 2003. A barrel holds 42 gallons, so that's roughly 375 million gallons per day."

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

"The Federal Gas Tax is 18.4 cpg"

$25.185 billion per YEAR in subsidies for a less efficient form of transportation.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121815170729322339.html

"Overall, Amtrak is on pace to serve a record 28 million passengers in its current fiscal year, up from the previous high of 25.8 million last year."

...

We spend $520 million per year for 28 million people to ride a train and $25.185 billion per year for the remaining 280 million people to drive on federal interstates.

The taxpayer subsidy for train is $18.57.

The taxpayer subsidy for car is $89.94.
 
[quote name='Strell']Watch me refute your facts, FoC:

Those facts are gay.[/QUOTE]

darth_vader_nooo1.jpg


I forgot to carry the cock!
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']@dorino, Every single traffic accident that occurs is preventable to, if you want to play it like that.[/QUOTE]
I do, actually. People responsible for traffic accidents are held responsible, right?
 
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