The libertarian's guide to externality costing. What do we do about the oil spill?

[quote name='dorino']Im still lost on trains being relevant to the oil spill.[/QUOTE]

Cars are basically forced to use oil to get from point A to point B. Dmaul and I have argued bitterly about electric cars. Trains can use electricity and don't have the range limitations of electric cars.

If we had a transportation based on trains, this oil gush would have been avoided completely. (What can we do about the current gush? Learn from our mistakes.)

For some reason, Knoell tried to be cute and point out how much more expensive trains are than cars.

I disagreed based on some rudimentary data.

Knoell wants to disagree with the rudimentary data due to issues of scalability.

I don't want to do a bunch of the work just to post something that Knoell won't understand and couldn't change his mind.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Cars are basically forced to use oil to get from point A to point B. Dmaul and I have argued bitterly about electric cars. Trains can use electricity and don't have the range limitations of electric cars.

If we had a transportation based on trains, this oil gush would have been avoided completely. (What can we do about the current gush? Learn from our mistakes.)

For some reason, Knoell tried to be cute and point out how much more expensive trains are than cars.

I disagreed based on some rudimentary data.

Knoell wants to disagree with the rudimentary data due to issues of scalability.

I don't want to do a bunch of the work just to post something that Knoell won't understand and couldn't change his mind.[/QUOTE]

You forgot the part where the market won't accept trains as the primary mode of transportation as long as cars are available. So unless the government required us to ride trains and ban cars along with purchasing health insurance (for our own good, don'tcha know) then trains just won't be favored in the market.

I am willing to admit that if Amtrak makes a few changes, it can be one of the many things needed to decrease our dependency. There is no silver bullet for this oil thing. Throwing a ton of money at trains won't be the cure, and neither will only solar panels. But if we take advantage of the minor gain in independence each one gives us, we will slowly but surely stop the dependency.
 
[quote name='Knoell']You forgot the part where the market won't accept trains as the primary mode of transportation as long as cars are available. So unless the government required us to ride trains and ban cars along with purchasing health insurance (for our own good, don'tcha know) then trains just won't be favored in the market.

I am willing to admit that if Amtrak makes a few changes, it can be one of the many things needed to decrease our dependency. There is no silver bullet for this oil thing. Throwing a ton of money at trains won't be the cure, and neither will only solar panels. But if we take advantage of the minor gain in independence each one gives us, we will slowly but surely stop the dependency.[/QUOTE]

1. Make every interstate a toll road.
2. Enforce traffic laws.
3. Build a real train system in heavily populated areas and branch out.
4. Raise tariffs on imported goods including cars.
EDIT: 5. No more "Cash for Clunkers" welfare.
6. No more mileage deduction.
7. Federal tax on each vehicle to pay for the occupation of Iraq.

EDIT 2: Some of these are letting the free market run. Others are responsible government.
 
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This is what they were talking about months ago, problem is that there could end up being big areas of the gulf with little to no oxygen due to the growth of the microbes.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']1. Make every interstate a toll road.
2. Enforce traffic laws.
3. Build a real train system in heavily populated areas and branch out.
4. Raise tariffs on imported goods including cars.
EDIT: 5. No more "Cash for Clunkers" welfare.
6. No more mileage deduction.
7. Federal tax on each vehicle to pay for the occupation of Iraq.

EDIT 2: Some of these are letting the free market run. Others are responsible government.[/QUOTE]

I don't have much of a problem with most of those, I especially like number 5. I did some work on cash for clunkers, it was ridiculous. I think I signed a confidentiality thing or else I'd tell some stories.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I want to build a factory to run for all the blue collar folks in the US who hate unions.

Let's roll back all that socialist bullshit like weekends, overtime, living wages, health benefits, and safety standards. Give y'all the jungle you're looking for. Hate unions? Come find out what it would be like to work without them.[/QUOTE]

Thats funny, my last two jobs I have not had unions, and I have had overtime, living wage increases, health benefits, and safety standards. I don't know how they do it without a union telling them to. They must be one of those exceptions to the company = evil rule. Weekends are the only thing I dont have, and the one job is because I work third shift, so I have to work friday nights, and the other job because I wasn't working in the office.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Thats funny, my last two jobs I have not had unions, and I have had overtime, living wage increases, health benefits, and safety standards. I don't know how they do it without a union telling them to. They must be one of those exceptions to the company = evil rule. Weekends are the only thing I dont have, and the one job is because I work third shift, so I have to work friday nights, and the other job because I wasn't working in the office.[/QUOTE]
Uh, I don't think you've thought that all the way through.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Uh, I don't think you've thought that all the way through.[/QUOTE]

Elaborate on what you find confusing.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Elaborate on what you find confusing.[/QUOTE]

All of the things you enjoy at your current workplace are there because unions fought so bitterly for them. Before unions, work was a very very dangerous place to be. Imagine being fired because you lost a hand in a old piece of machinery at work. Now imagine your wife or 13 year old son taking your place at the same dangerous place. But hey, it's much easier to hate on unions than appreciate them for what they did.
 
[quote name='depascal22']All of the things you enjoy at your current workplace are there because unions fought so bitterly for them. Before unions, work was a very very dangerous place to be. Imagine being fired because you lost a hand in a old piece of machinery at work. Now imagine your wife or 13 year old son taking your place at the same dangerous place. But hey, it's much easier to hate on unions than appreciate them for what they did.[/QUOTE]

We all know what unions have done in the past, but I think peoples arguements against unions today is that they aren't all that necessary anymore. I thought you guys realized that, but :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: jokes on you, you didn't!

That wasn't aimed at you depascal, thanks for clearing that up.
 
We know unions are corrupt. Look at any group in this country and you'll find corruption or some other form of deviant behavior. At this point, corruption is almost an inherent human trait. There's not a single beacon of saintly behavior anywhere. So what's the joke all about? You act like unions never did a single thing and then pretend there's some big joke on us?
 
[quote name='depascal22']We know unions are corrupt. Look at any group in this country and you'll find corruption or some other form of deviant behavior. At this point, corruption is almost an inherent human trait. There's not a single beacon of saintly behavior anywhere. So what's the joke all about? You act like unions never did a single thing and then pretend there's some big joke on us?[/QUOTE]

I just said that have done very good things in the past. These days they don't do alot.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I just said that have done very good things in the past. These days they don't do alot.[/QUOTE]

You could say the same about the Roman Catholic Church, the NAACP, and damn near every organization other than the Red Cross.
 
[quote name='depascal22']We know unions are corrupt. Look at any group in this country and you'll find corruption or some other form of deviant behavior. At this point, corruption is almost an inherent human trait. There's not a single beacon of saintly behavior anywhere. So what's the joke all about? You act like unions never did a single thing and then pretend there's some big joke on us?[/QUOTE]

I like where you are going with that paragraph.

Now you can hopefully understand where people like me are coming from in not wanting any large entities (read: groups of people) have power over us; hence beating the small gov drum.

Realizing that corruption is inherent in a human, it makes little sense to give other humans more and more power over you, does it?

I mean, you don't have to agree with me on wanting small government for that reason, but hopefully you at least understand given your statement.
 
[quote name='depascal22']You could say the same about the Roman Catholic Church, the NAACP, and damn near every organization other than the Red Cross.[/QUOTE]

You aren't forced to join those groups to work at an organization and pay dues from your check.
 
[quote name='Knoell']You aren't forced to join those groups to work at an organization and pay dues from your check.[/QUOTE]

You aren't forced to join that workforce. FRIE MAHRKIT!
 
Why si it that every time I hear a small government type beating their chest, the first things they seem to want to cut are social programs? I mean say what you will about human tendency towards corruption, I won't even disagree, but what about having empathy for those in need also? We can't use human corruption as an excuse for turning our backs on people.
 
[quote name='Knoell']You aren't forced to join those groups to work at an organization and pay dues from your check.[/QUOTE]
And neither are you in all unionized companies.
 
I understand exactly why you want a small government, thrust. I'm just saying it will never happen. Our government will continue to balloon until it bursts.

A smaller democracy will never replace a larger democracy. There will be no time to set up an election while someone swoops in and grabs power.

As in ancient Greece, a long period of democracy will be followed by the rule of a tyrant.
 
[quote name='Clak']Why si it that every time I hear a small government type beating their chest, the first things they seem to want to cut are social programs? I mean say what you will about human tendency towards corruption, I won't even disagree, but what about having empathy for those in need also? We can't use human corruption as an excuse for turning our backs on people.[/QUOTE]

To a certain extent, you are right. Some social programs will always need to be there, and should be there. However, the social programs that are deemed necessary need routine scrutinizing and auditing. We also need to not use "A new Social Program!" as the popular answer for every other problem that crops up. It should be a last resort type deal.

That being said, consider this: big government reduces our ability to express empathy and charity, by percentage, and the bigger it gets the more it reduces our ability. Money is transferable entitlement to do whatever you want. You make 100,000 dollars. if the government taxes you 35% and gives the money to the poor, they have taken your ability away from you to give to the poor by 35%. Considering you needed 50,000 to survive, 35% becomes more like 70% of a reduction of your ability to give to the poor.

Because they have divested you of your choice, they have taken away your interest in, your ability to care for, and your reward for giving, charity to the poor by 70%. It's an attack on it. An affront to it.

Add to that the fact that government agencies are unable to get to know PEOPLE and their situations, they historically and inherently poorly manage the giving of charity, and frequently are abused by persons who don't actually need charity.
 
That may work for those like me who would give the difference, but frankly I don't see most people willing giving the same amount of money that would be taken automatically by the government. Don't forget that charitable donations are also tax deductible, so I wouldn't say there is no reward. Then again, expecting a reward for giving to a charity is kind of stupid to begin with.
 
That math is all wrong. You didn't reduce the ability by anything if there is no base tax rate.

What tax rate would you consider fair? 20%?

So a person that is taxed less is left with 80K to live and be charitable with. You're supposed to give ten percent so let's say $6,500 in charitable contributions compared to $8,000. That's a 19.75% difference in the ability to pay.

EDIT -- I forgot to deduct the contributions from the 100K since it's deductible so my math is also off.

EDIT 2 -- It's a 17.43% difference in the ability to pay towards charity on a 100K salary assuming 10% of take home goes to charity. I used tax rates of 20% and 35%. This also excluded any other tax breaks or investments.
 
The BP Spill: Has the Damage Been Exaggerated?
By Michael Grunwald / Port Fourchon, La.

President Obama has called the BP oil spill "the worst environmental disaster America has ever faced," and so has just about everyone else. Green groups are sounding alarms about the "Catastrophe Along the Gulf Coast," while CBS, Fox and MSNBC slap "Disaster in the Gulf" chryons on all their spill-related news. Even BP fall guy Tony Hayward, after some early happy talk, admitted the spill was an "environmental catastrophe." The obnoxious anti-environmentalist Rush Limbaugh has been a rare voice arguing that the spill — he calls it "the leak" — is anything less than an ecological calamity, scoffing at the avalanche of end-is-nigh eco-hype.

Well, Rush has a point. The Deepwater explosion was an awful tragedy for the 11 workers who died on the rig, and it's no leak; it's the biggest oil spill in U.S. history. It's also inflicting serious economic and psychological damage on coastal communities that depend on tourism, fishing and drilling. But so far — while it's important to acknowledge that the long-term potential danger is simply unknowable for an underwater event that took place just three months ago — it does not seem to be inflicting severe environmental damage. "The impacts have been much, much less than everyone feared," says geochemist Jacqueline Michel, a federal contractor who is coordinating shoreline assessments in Louisiana. (See pictures of the Gulf oil spill.)

Yes, the spill killed birds — but so far, less than 1% of the birds killed by the Exxon Valdez. Yes, we've heard horror stories about oiled dolphins — but, so far, wildlife response teams have collected only three visibly oiled carcasses of any mammals. Yes, the spill prompted harsh restrictions on fishing and shrimping, but so far, the region's fish and shrimp have tested clean, and the restrictions are gradually being lifted. And, yes, scientists have warned that the oil could accelerate the destruction of Louisiana's disintegrating coastal marshes — a real slow-motion ecological calamity — but, so far, shorelines assessment teams have only found about 350 acres of oiled marshes, when Louisiana was already losing about 15,000 acres of wetlands every year. (Comment on this story.)

The disappearance of more than 2,000 square miles of coastal Louisiana over the last century has been a true national tragedy, ravaging a unique wilderness, threatening the bayou way of life and leaving communities like New Orleans extremely vulnerable to hurricanes from the Gulf. And while much of the erosion has been caused by the re-engineering of the Mississippi River — which no longer deposits much sediment at the bottom of its Delta — quite a bit has been caused by the oil and gas industry, which gouged 8,000 miles of canals and pipelines through coastal wetlands. But the spill isn't making that problem much worse. Coastal scientist Paul Kemp, a former Louisiana State University professor who is now a National Audubon Society vice president, compares the impact of the spill on the vanishing marshes to "a sunburn on a cancer patient." (See TIME's graphic "100 Days of the BP Spill.")

Marine scientist Ivor Van Heerden, another former LSU prof who's working for a spill response contractor, says "there's just no data to suggest this is an environmental disaster. I have no interest in making BP look good — I think they lied about the size of the spill — but we're not seeing catastrophic impacts," says Van Heerden, who, like just about everyone else working in the Gulf these days, is being paid out of BP's spill response funds. "There's a lot of hype, but no evidence to justify it."

The scientists I spoke with cite four basic reasons the initial eco-fears seem overblown. First, the Deepwater Horizon oil, unlike the black glop from the Valdez, is comparatively light and degradable, which is why the slick in the Gulf is dissolving surprisingly rapidly now that the gusher has been capped. Second, the Gulf of Mexico, unlike Prince William Sound, is balmy at more than 85 degrees, which also helps bacteria break down oil. Third, heavy flows of Mississippi River water helped keep the oil away from the coast, where it can do much more damage. Finally, Mother Nature can be incredibly resilient. Van Heerden's assessment team showed me around Casse-tete Island in Timbalier Bay, where new shoots of spartina grasses were sprouting in oiled marshes, and new leaves were growing on the first black mangroves I had ever seen that were actually black. "It comes back fast, doesn't it?" Van Heerden said. (See 12 people to blame for the Gulf oil spill.)

Van Heerden is controversial in Louisiana, so I should mention that this isn't the first time he and Kemp helped persuade me the conventional wisdom about a big story was wrong. Shortly after Hurricane Katrina, when the Army Corps of Engineers was still insisting that a gigantic surge had overwhelmed its levees, they gave me a tour that debunked the prevailing narrative, demonstrating that most of the breached floodwalls showed no signs of overtopping. Eventually, the Corps admitted that they were right, that the surge in New Orleans was not so gigantic, that engineering failures had drowned the city. But there was still a lot of resentment down here of Van Heerden and his big mouth, especially after he wrote an I-told-you-so book about Katrina. He made powerful enemies at LSU, lost his faculty job, and is now suing the university. Meanwhile, he's been trashed locally as a BP shill ever since he downplayed the spill in a video on BP's website.

Read "Relief Well Unplugged, BP Readies Final 'Kill' Operation."

See pictures of critters caught in the spill.

But Van Heerden and Kemp were right about Katrina, and when it comes to BP, they're sticking to the evidence gathered by the spill response teams — which all include a state and a federal representative as well as a BP contractor. So far, the teams have collected nearly 3,000 dead birds, but less than half were visibly oiled; some may have died from eating oil-contaminated food, but others may have simply died naturally at a time when the Gulf happened to be crawling with carcass-seekers. In any case, the Valdez may have killed as many as 435,000 birds. The teams have found 488 dead sea turtles, which is unfortunate, but only 17 were visibly oiled; otherwise, they have found only one other dead reptile in the entire Gulf. "We can't speak to the long-term impacts, but Ivor is just saying what all of us are seeing," says Amy Holman, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration director for Alaska who is working on Van Heerden's assessment team in the Gulf.

The shoreline teams have documented more than 600 miles of oiled beaches and marshes, but the beaches are fairly easy to clean, and the beleaguered marshes don't seem to be suffering much additional damage. Oil has blackened the fringes of the marshes, but most of it stayed within a few feet of the edge; waves from a recent tropical storm did carry some more oil a few meters inland, but very little of it infiltrated the wetland soils that determine the health of the marsh. (See the world's top 10 environmental disasters.)

LSU coastal scientist Eugene Turner has dedicated much of his career to documenting how the oil industry has ravaged Louisiana's coast with canals and pipelines, but he says the BP spill will be a comparative blip; he predicts that the oil will destroy fewer marshes than the airboats deployed to clean up the oil. "We don't want to deny that there's some damage, but nothing like the damage we've seen for years," he says.

It's true that oil spills can create long-term problems; in Alaska, for example, shorebirds that ate Exxon-tainted mussels have had lower reproductive success, and herring fisheries have yet to fully recover. The potential long-term damage that underwater oil plumes and an unprecedented amount of chemical dispersants that BP has spread in the area could have on the region's deepwater ecosystems and food chains might not be known for years. Some scientists worry that the swarms of oil-eating bacteria will lower dissolved oxygen levels; there has been early evidence of modest reductions, although nothing approaching the "dead zones" that were already proliferating in the Gulf of Mexico because of agricultural runoff in the Mississippi Basin. "People always fear the worst in a spill, and this one was especially scary because we didn't know when it would stop," says Michel, an environmental consultant who has worked spills for NOAA for over 30 years. "But the public always overestimates the danger — and this time those of us in the spill business did too." (Watch TIME's video "Portraits From the Oil Spill.")

It's easy to overstate the policy implications of this optimistic news. BP still needs to clean up its mess; federal regulation of deepwater drilling still needs to be strengthened; we still need to use fewer fossil fuels that warm the planet; we still don't need to use more corn ethanol (which is actually dirtier than gasoline). The push to exploit the spill to push a comprehensive energy and climate bill through Congress has already stalled anyway — even though the planet still needs one.

The good news does suggest the folly of Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal's $350 million plan to build sand berms and rock jetties to protect marshes and barrier islands from oil. Some of the berms are already washing into the Gulf, and scientists agree that oil is the least of the problems facing Louisiana's coast, which had already lost over 2,000 square miles of wetlands before the spill. "Imagine how much real restoration we could do with all that money," Van Heerden says. (See pictures of people protesting BP.)

Anti-oil politicians, anti-Obama politicians and underfunded green groups all have obvious incentives to accentuate the negative in the Gulf. So did the media, because disasters drive ratings and sell magazines; those oil-soaked pelicans you keep seeing on TV (and the cover of TIME) were a lot more compelling than the healthy pelicans I saw roosting on some protective boom in Bay Jimmy. Even Limbaugh, when he wasn't downplaying the spill, was outrageously hyping it as "Obama's Katrina." But honest scientists don't do that, even when they work for Audubon.

"There are a lot of alarmists in the bird world," Kemp says. "People see oiled pelicans, and they go crazy. But this has been a disaster for people, not biota."

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,2007202,00.html

the silver lining i suppose
 
[quote name='Clak']Why si it that every time I hear a small government type beating their chest, the first things they seem to want to cut are social programs? I mean say what you will about human tendency towards corruption, I won't even disagree, but what about having empathy for those in need also? We can't use human corruption as an excuse for turning our backs on people.[/QUOTE]

Tsk tsk. Keep talking like that and they'll take away your RNC bumper sticker.

Seriously though the right does care about... stuff...mumble mumble Jesus...or something.
 
Has there been any discussion on what effect the spill had on fuel prices, if any? I know that was a fear at start, but it doesn't seem that it's had any effect. I know losing 1 well doesn't have a huge impact on supply, but then investors usually panic when anything bad happens involving oil. Not to mention that people run to the pump to fill up fearing a raise in prices, which can actually raise the price.
 
[quote name='camoor']Tsk tsk. Keep talking like that and they'll take away your RNC bumper sticker.

Seriously though the right does care about... stuff...mumble mumble Jesus...or something.[/QUOTE]

No, the difference is that many people believe the first and most important thing the constitution gives us and this country stands for is LIBERTY. That should come before anything. That's really all the constitution guarantees you, or tries to guarantee you.

Others (who are willfully ignorant of or flat out don't like the constitution) believe the first and most important thing our government/country should provide us, even before Liberty, is making sure you aren't poor, hungry, hurting, sick, depressed, uneducated, unclean, homeless, or generally compensate for bad luck.
Unfortunately there is no way to interpret the constitution to say it was meant to guarantee those things.

My main issue is this: If you don't like the constitution as it is, and wish it did mention the above, then it can be amended. You need 2/3 of all states to vote in an election to amend the constitution (I believe). So let's put it up for vote, if that's what we want the Federal Government to do.

On the other hand, I have no issue with a State/County/City writing their own constitution to redistribute resources however they like. But there is no reason to expect the Federal Government to do so until the Constitution changes.
 
[quote name='Clak']Has there been any discussion on what effect the spill had on fuel prices, if any? I know that was a fear at start, but it doesn't seem that it's had any effect. I know losing 1 well doesn't have a huge impact on supply, but then investors usually panic when anything bad happens involving oil. Not to mention that people run to the pump to fill up fearing a raise in prices, which can actually raise the price.[/QUOTE]

just goes to show how much of a crock oil prices actually are. theyre pretty much set at whatever they want, regardless of the commodity price.
 
I can't personally think of any other product which has a price that fluctuates as much as oil. At least that we see ourselves at the purchase point.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']My main issue is this: If you don't like the constitution as it is, and wish it did mention the above, then it can be amended. You need 2/3 of all states to vote in an election to amend the constitution (I believe). So let's put it up for vote, if that's what we want the Federal Government to do.

On the other hand, I have no issue with a State/County/City writing their own constitution to redistribute resources however they like. But there is no reason to expect the Federal Government to do so until the Constitution changes.[/QUOTE]
So, uh, what would be the point of a bicameral legislative body?
[quote name='Clak']I can't personally think of any other product which has a price that fluctuates as much as oil. At least that we see ourselves at the purchase point.[/QUOTE]
It's pegged to the dollar and sensitive to political turmoil because of such inelastic demand. Gold goes way up and way down on a fairly regular basis. Copper too.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Others (who are willfully ignorant of or flat out don't like the constitution) believe the first and most important thing our government/country should provide us, even before Liberty, is making sure you aren't poor, hungry, hurting, sick, depressed, uneducated, unclean, homeless, or generally compensate for bad luck.
Unfortunately there is no way to interpret the constitution to say it was meant to guarantee those things. [/quote]
-Needy people are not free
-General welfare

Furthermore, the contents of the Constitution arent magical or sacred. I find it hard to believe that there is a person that agrees 100% with every word of the Constitution. One shouldnt like something automatically just because it is in there. Thats what amendments and the Judiciary are for. The founders were in fact human beings who like the rest of us were deeply flawed and had to compromise a lot to put it together. I personally wouldve had Jefferson write the whole thing, as his wanting of a ban on having a standing military during peacetime was compromised away into what is now the 2nd amendment.

Strangely enough, for whatever reason, Jefferson listed his 3 greatest accomplishments on his tombstone, and any contribution to the US Constitution isnt one of them. They are author of the Declaration of Independence, founding the University of Virginia, and writing a statute on freedom of religion. I bet a lot of the founders had their qualms about the final document.
 
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Would you think its good for jet liners continue to take off, if one crashed for an unknown reason? Is that responsible?

EDIT: I should probably clarify my position so Bob will stop asking bullshit hypotheticals while not answering any questions.

I think the gov't role is to protect people. This would involve all the safety regulations that BP seemed to ignore (something like 700 safety violations.) I think right now the responsibility lies with the companies to adhere to the regulations and the feds to enforce them. The feds can't shut down rigs based on no proof of actual safety violations.

I would like to do a sting and send good inspectors to every single drilling rig out there and make sure they're in compliance with any and all regulations that apply to them. That is the most the feds can do right now.

If, after investigating the DH spill, we find out they did something that isn't covered by any of our regulations, maybe additional regulations are necessary.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Would you think its good for jet liners continue to take off, if one crashed for an unknown reason? Is that responsible?

EDIT: I should probably clarify my position so Bob will stop asking bullshit hypotheticals while not answering any questions.

I think the gov't role is to protect people. This would involve all the safety regulations that BP seemed to ignore (something like 700 safety violations.) I think right now the responsibility lies with the companies to adhere to the regulations and the feds to enforce them. The feds can't shut down rigs based on no proof of actual safety violations.

I would like to do a sting and send good inspectors to every single drilling rig out there and make sure they're in compliance with any and all regulations that apply to them. That is the most the feds can do right now.

If, after investigating the DH spill, we find out they did something that isn't covered by any of our regulations, maybe additional regulations are necessary.[/QUOTE]

I would not have a problem with any of what you suggest.
In fact, I'd go a step further and suggest temporarily stopping all drilling being done by BP and/or with equipment built/maintained by TransOcean. As with the jets, I'd be okay with grounding all units built and/or operated by the same company.

But that's not what Obama's doing - and that's why the courts have shot him down twice. But he doesn't care - his rule is above the courts. He'll do as he pleases and create a third ban.
 
[quote name='speedracer']So, uh, what would be the point of a bicameral legislative body?

It's pegged to the dollar and sensitive to political turmoil because of such inelastic demand. Gold goes way up and way down on a fairly regular basis. Copper too.[/QUOTE]
I meant more consumer products, things people buy regularly.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I would not have a problem with any of what you suggest.
In fact, I'd go a step further and suggest temporarily stopping all drilling being done by BP and/or with equipment built/maintained by TransOcean. As with the jets, I'd be okay with grounding all units built and/or operated by the same company.

But that's not what Obama's doing - and that's why the courts have shot him down twice. But he doesn't care - his rule is above the courts. He'll do as he pleases and create a third ban.[/QUOTE]
Like every president before him, he'll do what he wants.
Good observation, Bob.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You aren't forced to join that workforce. FRIE MAHRKIT![/QUOTE]

[quote name='Clak']And neither are you in all unionized companies.[/QUOTE]

it would be a free market if you were allowed to make the choice of joining that union or not. The way people like you demonize any company that doesn't have a union as devoid of human rights, I am surprised the federal government hasn't made it mandatory.
 
[quote name='Knoell']it would be a free market if you were allowed to make the choice of joining that union or not. The way people like you demonize any company that doesn't have a union as devoid of human rights, I am surprised the federal government hasn't made it mandatory.[/QUOTE]

Are you really. Are you really.

This is a country where the news calls rolling back tax breaks on the richest 3% a "tax bomb". Where half the people still don't understand that trickle down means that they're on the receiving end of a golden shower. Where deregulation of banks can bring us to the brink of ruin and all you hear tea partiers squawking about is non-existent socialism and the appointment of 'Czars'.

So I ask again. Are you really surprised that the federal government doesn't weigh in on behalf of worker's rights, whether it be Western VA miners, oil rig workers in the Gulf of Mexico, or those forced into benefit-free 35-hour part time jobs.
 
[quote name='Clak']I meant more consumer products, things people buy regularly.[/QUOTE]
I thought about that last night and couldn't come up with one anywhere near as volatile. It's a commodity, but so is orange juice. It's refined, so it's not like it's a straight up commodity with no value added. Gas is much more like other stuff we buy regularly than I initially thought.

Maybe it has to do with it being subject to the oil cartel setting prices, though they often deviate from the target price.
[quote name='Knoell']it would be a free market if you were allowed to make the choice of joining that union or not. The way people like you demonize any company that doesn't have a union as devoid of human rights, I am surprised the federal government hasn't made it mandatory.[/QUOTE]
The ability to choose whether to join a union is reserved for the state. Texas allows you to opt out. Oregon does not. The feds have no control over that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

Even the Libertarian Party has had trouble with it based on whose side you take, so now they don't talk about it at all:
From a libertarian perspective, right-to-work laws may be argued either for or against, depending on whether the focus is on the freedom of the employee or the freedom of the employer. A right-to-work law can be seen as either freeing individual employees from being coerced into joining a union, or as restricting the right of an employer to enter into a voluntary contract with its labor union. For example, the Libertarian Party's affiliate in the state of Georgia includes an endorsement of right-to-work laws in its party platform. However, in the past, the national Libertarian Party has included talking points in its platform which have explicitly called for the repeal of right-to-work laws. In 2006, the Libertarian Reform Caucus successfully spearheaded a drive to remove from the Libertarian Party platform specific planks upon which there is significant disagreement among membership. As a result, the national platform no longer specifically addresses right-to-work laws.
I think it's telling that you knee jerk side with the so-called "free market" view on employee-union relationships without ever realizing that you are de facto preventing the company from entering into a contract with the union, thereby blocking the right to association and the commerce power of contracting, both essential elements for a free market.
 
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Because I'm an indulgent prick. Super trains!
Amtrak, which has forecast record ridership in fiscal 2010, saw gains in ridership and revenue in June, with the strongest growth on trains coming and going from Washington.

Amtrak’s total June revenue rose 17 percent from June of last year to $163.4 million. Revenue on its Northeast Corridor, which runs from Washington to Boston, rose 12 percent from a year earlier. Ticket sales on its high-speed Acela line were up 16 percent.

Amtrak’s June ridership system-wide was 2.6 million passengers in June, up 9.3 percent.

Passengers on the Northeast Corridor last month rose 3.5 percent to 616,000, while Acela ridership jumped 11 percent from a year ago to 296,000 passengers.

Amtrak started offering discounted fares on its busy Northeast Corridor a little over a year ago and this spring made those discounts permanent.

Between 2002 and 2008, Amtrak ridership grew 32 percent, and it expects ridership to grow another 15 percent between now and 2014. Amtrak is asking for additional funding from Congress to fund its modernization plan to keep up with rising demand and hopes to replace its entire fleet by 2040.
But nobody wants to ride!
 
[quote name='speedracer']Because I'm an indulgent prick. Super trains!

But nobody wants to ride![/QUOTE]

Impressive esp since you can get a DC/NYC bus ride super cheap. The train is a nice ride, smooth, fast, and fun to see all the small town train stations.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Because I'm an indulgent prick. Super trains!

But nobody wants to ride![/QUOTE]


Finances ($ millions, not adjusted for inflation)
19881989199019911992199319941995199619971998199920002001200220032004Revenues11071269130813471320140014091490155016691702182019992087221220581897Expenses17571935201220672019211323672257225823592548266028763288322432063097Cost recovery
(including
depreciation)0.630.660.650.650.650.660.600.660.690.710.670.680.700.630.690.640.61Notes --
1) 1994 (and to some extent 1995) included many one-time expenses relating to restructuring.
2) Amtrak, with its 1999 report, began showing certain federal grants as income for 1998 and beyond which are not shown here.
3) Expenses include depreciation, which increased greatly (by 32%) from 2000 to 2001.

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/resources/more/amstat/
 
[quote name='speedracer']So, uh, what would be the point of a bicameral legislative body?
[/QUOTE]

To create laws WITHIN the boundaries of the Constitution. Something we really don't do anymore.

The founders set up the Constitution as a "work in progress". They intended it to be amended. They put forth the 2/3 rule to do so. If the American people want things added to it, there is a mechanism to do so. However, today, we don't really do that. We simply allow Congress to conjur laws that directly contradict or go way outside anything the Constitution framed (Social Programs?) and call it good.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Because I'm an indulgent prick. Super trains!

But nobody wants to ride![/QUOTE]


Revenue rose 17%, which doesn't exactly tell you what that is, or whether any of it will be profit. I could run a lemonade stand, make 4 dollars one day, and 5 dollars the next, but if I don't tell you that it cost 20 dollars to operate the stand, those numbers are meaningless. Its great that revenue went up, but they aren't telling the whole story.

2009 was not exactly a record year to beat either.

(1Q2009 statistics)
The lower passenger revenues reflects a 7.0 percent decline in passenger ticketsales ($31.7 million),​

a 4.3 percent decline in food and beverage sales ($1.0 million),​

and a 14.4 percent decline in state supported train revenues ($6.4 million).​

The declines in passenger ticket and food and beverage revenues​

reflect significantly lower ridership compared to Amtrak’s original forecast (see​

table 1). For example, revenues for Amtrak’s Acela service were down​

14.8 percent, or $19.6 million, on a 12.3 percent decline in ridership, and revenues​

from the Northeast Regional service was down 9.7 percent, or $12.9 million, on a​

9.0 percent decline in ridership. By contrast, Amtrak’s long distance service ticket​

sales were up 4.9 percent, or $5 million higher than budget, reflecting a ridership​

increase of 2.9 percent. In addition, revenues from state-supported services were​

down 3.0 percent on a 2.4 percent ridership decline. The decline in state supported​

train revenues primarily reflects a delay in signing contracts and receiving​

payments from a number of large states. Amtrak forecasts that it will receive​

these payments by the end of FY 2009.

http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/4511


It is also great that ridership went up, but again they are not telling the whole story if you want to think about giving them more subsidies.
"Yay we sold 9% more seats, can we have more money? "
"How many seats did you not sell?"
"40%"

Amtrak fell to 27.2 million passengers in fiscal year 2009 (ending Sept. 30), a decline of 5 percent over 2008

Lowering prices is a great way to make trains more accessible for people who are looking to use them, but again they will not replace even the majority of the countrys desire to have their own car, let alone replace cars altogether. I do not argue that trains are efficient, and that some people ride them. I argue against the point that throwing money at them will make them the same popularity as cars. I have already said that if Amtrak made some changes trains could be one piece of the puzzle of becoming less dependent on oil, but not the only piece.

Do you notice how practically every one of your statistics are skewed to make a rather standard year look outstanding compared to a miserable one. But they don't exactly tell you 2009 was miserable. They even left 2009 out of their whole "between 2002 and 2008 we grew 32%" which since 2009 was a terrible year for the economy, I wouldn't mind them leaving it out as an exception but they don't bother to tell you that, while comparing 2010 to 2009 straight out at the same time, and saying "look how good we did compared to last year!"
 
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[quote name='thrustbucket']The founders set up the Constitution as a "work in progress". They intended it to be amended. They put forth the 2/3 rule to do so. If the American people want things added to it, there is a mechanism to do so. However, today, we don't really do that. We simply allow Congress to conjur laws that directly contradict or go way outside anything the Constitution framed (Social Programs?) and call it good.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate that in your long and storied Constitutional scholar days you've built a credible and oft-cited body of work to support that claim, but reality would like to point out that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

If you really gave a tenth of a shit that you pretend to give, you'd go buy a Con Law book from Amazon and have a read. It's like, fundamental and stuff.
 
The Constitution is short, as the governing document of our nation. It was written to be intelligible and accessible enough for any lay-person to read it. It was written to be consulted before making laws.

You are telling me I don't know a dang thing about the Constitution, and what it allows, because I have not read a $146 book of interpretations about the Constitution? That, my friend, illustrates best the problem I have been talking about.
 
I have to agree with thrust here, the Constitution was meant to be amended... If it was supposed to be taken as an absolute law that cannot change, we would still own black people.

Also, from trains to constitution... when are we going to get back to the spill?
 
[quote name='Knoell']it would be a free market if you were allowed to make the choice of joining that union or not. The way people like you demonize any company that doesn't have a union as devoid of human rights, I am surprised the federal government hasn't made it mandatory.[/QUOTE]
Heh, oh how I wish there was an IT union. For the record, the company at which my father worked for nearly 20 years was a union shop, yet there were a fair number of people not in the union working there right alongside the unionized employees.
 
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