The Middle East ... Who's making thing worst Israel or Palestine
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So what's with all the hub-bub about one side being immoral and wanting to bathe in the blood of babies when *both* sides are killing innocents?
Finger_Shocker
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Fine, Israel should admit they are as much of a FREELY elected terrorist organization as the same FREELY elected terrorist organization in Palestine.
So I murder your children and you come by and murder a couple additional children of mine and then you get to sit on your chair and say you are the good guy? All there is are just monsters except one of them won't admit as much
Thats as much as those Southern bible thumpers who say God freed the slaves all the while having their black man pick their cotton, while getting whipped and going home to have a black women cook their supper while they rape her at night
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My comments to the really despicable, uneducated, inhumane posters who say that in killing almost 2000 people, mostly civilians, Israel is only defending itself, that that is horseshit. To sarcastically rationalize it, I pretend to assume the only way a person could justify the indiscriminate killing is by genuinely loving to see children die.
In this conflict Hamas has killed something like 4 civilians. Each one of those is a travesty, is murder, and is wrong. But we don't equate a guy killing a convenience store clerk while robbing him, to a serial killer who murders dozens of people. Both are murder, but there is a scale to it.
Throw in the fact that the US is Israel's strongest ally despite spying on us, bringing us into repeated conflicts, and Israel is a longtime, established country vs. an occupied population, almost literally surrounding by adversaries, and you have a complete abuse of power, confirmed lack of respect for human life, confirmed civilian targets, and confirmed Israeli politicians saying they want to destroy Gaza (which ironically enough is what the uneducated continue to accuse Hamas of aiming to do as justification for killing so many innocent people).
So do I think some of the radicals in this thread REALLY want to bathe in, drink, or masturbate in human baby blood, no. I think that's quite unlikely. But I sure would like to hear how there is any excuse for killing so many civilians, and dismissing it all as self defense.
Self defense doesn't mean being punched by some guy, then shooting him, his family, his neighbors, and killing the doctors at the three closest hospitals.
There is no excuse for the number of people Israel has killed. There is no excuse for Hamas killing civilians. While the sin is equal, the scale is not even close.
CheapLikeAFox
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I get my news from Jon Stewart, but everything he says seems on point. Hamas sends some rockets blocked by Israel's advanced defense system...and then Israel bombs the shit out of Gaza. And then people get mobbed by the PC mafia when they express sympathy for the people in Gaza...
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I think most people have "sympathy for the people in Gaza". They just have different perspectives on who is responsible: the government acting in self-defense against indiscriminate attacks on their citizens or the government intentionally provoking the attacks by firing rockets.
I think it's absolutely tragic that the Hamas government is using its own citizens as shields for a fruitless attack mainly designed to pump their own egos, feed the bloodlust of their members and try to win sympathy on the world stage by using their own people as pawns. I don't, however, blame Israel for acting in their own self defense when someone is randomly trying to kill their citizens, no matter how effective each individual attack may be.
Keep in mind that the Iron Dome and the security wall had to be designed just to STOP these attacks. Imagine living where you're so constantly being assaulted by indiscriminate rocket fire and suicide bombers targeting your buses and schools that you need to create these things. And that STILL doesn't stop the attacks, only now when you try to defend yourself you're supposedly the bad guy because how dare you try and eliminate the guys firing rockets when you have that great defense system.
I think it's absolutely tragic that the Hamas government is using its own citizens as shields for a fruitless attack mainly designed to pump their own egos, feed the bloodlust of their members and try to win sympathy on the world stage by using their own people as pawns. I don't, however, blame Israel for acting in their own self defense when someone is randomly trying to kill their citizens, no matter how effective each individual attack may be.
Keep in mind that the Iron Dome and the security wall had to be designed just to STOP these attacks. Imagine living where you're so constantly being assaulted by indiscriminate rocket fire and suicide bombers targeting your buses and schools that you need to create these things. And that STILL doesn't stop the attacks, only now when you try to defend yourself you're supposedly the bad guy because how dare you try and eliminate the guys firing rockets when you have that great defense system.
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Being fired at with rockets isn't "being punched" and it cheapens the argument to resort to such a pathetic diminishment for what Hamas is doing.
Not entirely sure how Gazans can fight back from anywhere other than a civilian area. If you haven't checked recently, Gaza is kinda small:
And regarding comparing a punch in the mouth to Hamas rockets, one of the first pictures that came up in searching for Hamas rocket damage was this:
Search for Israeli strike damage, and you get this:
Again, the attacks are so disproportionate, and with such little regard for civilian safety, that I don't care if Hamas is firing rockets while standing on their mother's shoulders, when you have killed 2,000 civilians, regardless of the circumstances, you have fought unjust, evil, and without any regard for human life...and you just so happen to have the unwavering support of my country. There is no excuse, there is no defense. What Israel is doing is murder, not war, and the scale of the attack is unjustifiable.
Have you happened to follow any of the Wikileaks stories about how the US was aware all of this was going down quite awhile ago, privy to basically all of the attacks, AND there are legitimate news sources linking the area to good natural gas reserves and US contractors working to get access to it? Throw in the fact that some Israeli politicians have called for the leveling of Gaza, extermination of Gazans. They are our
ing ally!!! Hamas is called a terrorist organization. Which of those two should be held to a higher standard?
So, tell me again how this was all because Hamas kidnapped 3 Israeli teens (that Israel later said Hamas wasn't responsible for)? Oh, that's right, it was about terror tunnels...that Israel apparently has the exact location of. Why not flood the tunnels like Egypt did? Or better yet, prevent the building of them as soon as their location was determined? Maybe it's about rockets and not the other two excuses Israel already used? OK, so go in on the ground, fight a fair fight that limits civilian death, and take out the locations of the rocket fire. I know this SOUNDS insane, but what about infiltrating a UN school and confirming weapons or rockets, rather than bombing them and telling us you're pretty sure there were weapons there.
War is hell bro.
And regarding comparing a punch in the mouth to Hamas rockets, one of the first pictures that came up in searching for Hamas rocket damage was this:
Search for Israeli strike damage, and you get this:
Again, the attacks are so disproportionate, and with such little regard for civilian safety, that I don't care if Hamas is firing rockets while standing on their mother's shoulders, when you have killed 2,000 civilians, regardless of the circumstances, you have fought unjust, evil, and without any regard for human life...and you just so happen to have the unwavering support of my country. There is no excuse, there is no defense. What Israel is doing is murder, not war, and the scale of the attack is unjustifiable.
Have you happened to follow any of the Wikileaks stories about how the US was aware all of this was going down quite awhile ago, privy to basically all of the attacks, AND there are legitimate news sources linking the area to good natural gas reserves and US contractors working to get access to it? Throw in the fact that some Israeli politicians have called for the leveling of Gaza, extermination of Gazans. They are our
ing ally!!! Hamas is called a terrorist organization. Which of those two should be held to a higher standard? So, tell me again how this was all because Hamas kidnapped 3 Israeli teens (that Israel later said Hamas wasn't responsible for)? Oh, that's right, it was about terror tunnels...that Israel apparently has the exact location of. Why not flood the tunnels like Egypt did? Or better yet, prevent the building of them as soon as their location was determined? Maybe it's about rockets and not the other two excuses Israel already used? OK, so go in on the ground, fight a fair fight that limits civilian death, and take out the locations of the rocket fire. I know this SOUNDS insane, but what about infiltrating a UN school and confirming weapons or rockets, rather than bombing them and telling us you're pretty sure there were weapons there.
War is hell bro.
Imagine living somewhere for generations, then having the UN tell you that the land you, your parents, and grandparents lived on, was now going to a bunch of Europeans, and you were being evicted. Then imagine bands of Israeli terrorists (led by Ariel Sharon called the Haganah) who according to Israeli historian:
“Sharon’s order was to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. His success in carrying out the order surpassed all expectations. The full and macabre story of what happened at Qibya was revealed only during the morning after the attack. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed. Sharon and his men claimed that they believed that all the inhabitants had run away and that they had no idea that anyone was hiding inside the houses.
“The UN observer who inspected the scene reached a different conclusion: ‘One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them.’ The slaughter in Qibya was described contemporaneously in a letter to the president of the United Nations Security Council dated October 16, 1953…from the Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of Jordan to the United States. On 14 October 1953 at 9:30 at night, he wrote, Israeli troops launched a battalion-scale attack on the village of Qibya in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (at the time the West Bank was annexed to Jordan).
“According to the diplomat’s account, Israeli forces had entered the village and systematically murdered all occupants of houses, using automatic weapons, grenades and incendiaries. On 14 October, the bodies of 42 Arab civilians had been recovered; several more bodies had been still under the wreckage. Forty houses, the village school and a reservoir had been destroyed. Quantities of unused explosives, bearing Israel army markings in Hebrew, had been found in the village. At about 3 a.m., to cover their withdrawal, Israeli support troops had begun shelling the neighboring villages of Budrus and Shuqba from positions in Israel. The U.S. Department of State issued a statement on 18 October 1953, expressing its ‘deepest sympathy for the families of those who lost their lives’ in the Qibya attack as well as the conviction that those responsible ‘should be brought to account and that effective measures should be taken to prevent such incidents in the future.’”
Maybe rather than educate you on history, I'll ask this, did the Palestinians get a raw deal when the UN established a country smack dab in the middle of their population? Was the US right in literally being the first to officially recognize them, and immediately pledge support? Are the Palestinians currently living under sub-standard conditions, without the ability to import food, establish a legitimate government, or receive humanitarian aid?
I'm just curious on how you view the whole thing. For me, they have been screwed so many times, and for so long, and with Arab neighbors, Israel, and the US all gangbanging the shit out of them for years, that to be honest, I'm surprised they don't lash out with more violence.
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Indeed it is. This would put the onus on Hamas to protect their civilian population if they're going to engage in warfare against Israel.
That looks a lot more deadly than a "punch in the mouth" to me. Again, it's not a lack of enthusiasm that's keeping Hamas from killing more people, it's a (fortunate) lack of weaponry.
The idea that Israel is "wrong" for using better weapons is absurd. "Put the fighter jets and tanks away, boys. These guys just have rifles so we're only allowed to use rifles to defend ourselves". The goal of Israel is to defend themselves with the least amount of Israeli deaths. This means leveraging superior weaponry just as the US did in Iraq or the NATO forces did in Libya or anyone with half a brain does anywhere. In a better world, this would act as a deterrent to Hamas but that sort of hinges on Hamas giving a shit for the civilians they're killing by subjecting them to counterattacks.
That's a joke, right? Are you demanding that Hamas get all of its soldiers and telling them to line up and duke it out with Israeli infantry? Rather than hiding behind women and firing rockets and running away, leaving the women to take the counter-attack?
Of course not. It's all Big Bad Israel. They're not fighting "fair" in their attempt to stop indiscriminate rocket attacks. Boo-
ing-hoo.And what, exactly, is Hamas doing to help that situation with this act of warfare and using their civilian population as human shields? I mean, if that's supposed to be the valid rationale, explain to me exactly how it's helping Palestine and what the end game is from it.
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It's the same reason I'm so disgusted with the US' drone program. It's some asshat playing remote control plane, and bombing intelligence targets that may or may not be littered with innocent people. If you're on the ground, have visual on the enemy, and can kill a much higher percentage of bad guys, you know, like more than 25%, then a responsible, Western backed military should do that.Indeed it is. This would put the onus on Hamas to protect their civilian population if they're going to engage in warfare against Israel.
That looks a lot more deadly than a "punch in the mouth" to me. Again, it's not a lack of enthusiasm that's keeping Hamas from killing more people, it's a (fortunate) lack of weaponry.
The idea that Israel is "wrong" for using better weapons is absurd. "Put the fighter jets and tanks away, boys. These guys just have rifles so we're only allowed to use rifles to defend ourselves". The goal of Israel is to defend themselves with the least amount of Israeli deaths. This means leveraging superior weaponry just as the US did in Iraq or the NATO forces did in Libya or anyone with half a brain does anywhere. In a better world, this would act as a deterrent to Hamas but that sort of hinges on Hamas giving a shit for the civilians they're killing by subjecting them to counterattacks.
That's a joke, right? Are you demanding that Hamas get all of its soldiers and telling them to line up and duke it out with Israeli infantry? Rather than hiding behind women and firing rockets and running away, leaving the women to take the counter-attack?
Of course not. It's all Big Bad Israel. They're not fighting "fair" in their attempt to stop indiscriminate rocket attacks. Boo-
And what, exactly, is Hamas doing to help that situation with this act of warfare and using their civilian population as human shields? I mean, if that's supposed to be the valid rationale, explain to me exactly how it's helping Palestine and what the end game is from it.
The goal shouldn't be to kill as many of the other guys as you can while taking minimal losses. It should be to take out the bad guys with minimal loss of life...for both sides. Otherwise we'd drop nukes everywhere we go since it's the quickest way to flatten a warzone. We don't, because we acknowledge the mass killing of innocents that it causes.
So yes, I am saying that by having to look into the eyes of a family before deciding if you should murder them, a ground offensive is more efficient in eliminating bad guys, and not murdering kids. That's just a fact.
And this human shield bullshit is such a pathetic, tired talking point that is intellectually dishonest. So you're telling me that if a gunman is shooting at police from the middle of a crowded mall, surrounded by patrons, that any responsible officer should open fire without any regard for the surroundings? Should they lob a grenade into the middle of the crowd? "Hey, we killed the shooter!! I mean, those 25 shoppers had to die too because they were human shields, but we got us a baddie"
THIS is why I say go in on the ground, so you're not killing 4:1 civilians vs. so-called terrorists.
Killing 4:1 civilians to enemies is not acceptable anywhere else in the world, so why do you think it's OK to do it when Israel and Palestine is involved? 4:1 killed, mainly by airstrikes, 500,000 left homeless, in an area smaller than Rhode Island.
If only there were generally accepted and trusted conventions in place for treatment in a time of war, and as a member of the international community. Hell, they could name it Gene, or Eva. You know what, let's be more inclusive, let's just call it the Geneva Convention: http://itisapartheid.org/Documents_pdf_etc/IsraelViolationsInternationalLaw.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1682640.stm
(Don't worry, I know you won't read either one, it basically speaks on the Geneva Convention points that Israel violates)
So my last question to you: Would it be acceptable to you if someone was shooting bullets from the middle of a crowded civilian area, and to neutralize the threat, law enforcement, soldiers, whoever, threw a grenade into the middle of the crowd, or shot into it until they kill the bad guy along with several innocent bystanders? Simple question, direct comparison to what is happening in Gaza. If you think it's justified to kill a whole bunch of people to get to one, then I understand your position better and would chalk it up to being morally opposed to it. If you don't think it's OK to shoot into a crowd at a mall to kill a gunman, then I have to assume bigotry, xenophobia, bloodlust, or just an argumentative nature for your support of what Israel is doing, because there is no logical, ethical, rational excuse.
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It's not a direct comparison. Law enforcement and bullets are different from military and rockets. I really don't get the continual need to change the argument to into something else, "bullets", "punches", "bank robbers", etc. Just call it for exactly what it is...
For a real direct comparison: If someone was sitting on an apartment building over the border and using it as a staging area to fire rockets at my town while I was trying to live my life, go to work, drop the kids off at school, etc, I'd have zero issue with the military using a missile to level said apartment building regardless of how many rockets were intercepted by a defense system. To be honest, you almost certainly would be fine with it as well if it was your town.
On the flip side, if the local government came to your house, sat down on your roof, fired off rockets over the border at some random town and then said "sucks to be you!" and ran off before your house was leveled by a missile strike, whose fault would it be that your house was blown up? Oh yeah, but the whole human shield thing is "bullshit" because that's a lot easier than addressing the fact that this is exactly what's happening.
I'd have a lot easier time swallowing all the anti-Israel crap if the people spewing it put even a third as much effort into admitting what Hamas was doing and howed up and monstrous it is. instead, the best you get is the occasional handwaved "Well, I'm not defending them but let's spend another ten paragraphs bitching about Israel..."
For a real direct comparison: If someone was sitting on an apartment building over the border and using it as a staging area to fire rockets at my town while I was trying to live my life, go to work, drop the kids off at school, etc, I'd have zero issue with the military using a missile to level said apartment building regardless of how many rockets were intercepted by a defense system. To be honest, you almost certainly would be fine with it as well if it was your town.
On the flip side, if the local government came to your house, sat down on your roof, fired off rockets over the border at some random town and then said "sucks to be you!" and ran off before your house was leveled by a missile strike, whose fault would it be that your house was blown up? Oh yeah, but the whole human shield thing is "bullshit" because that's a lot easier than addressing the fact that this is exactly what's happening.
I'd have a lot easier time swallowing all the anti-Israel crap if the people spewing it put even a third as much effort into admitting what Hamas was doing and how
ed up and monstrous it is. instead, the best you get is the occasional handwaved "Well, I'm not defending them but let's spend another ten paragraphs bitching about Israel..."
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CheapLikeAFox
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I always think it's funny the ways people find to justify killing innocent civilians.
Israel knows exactly what is going on. They know the areas they are bombing are going to cause civilian casualties. They know Hamas tactics and they know Hamas isn't going to back down. Yet, they continue to murder civilians knowing it is not going to make any difference. In fact, it has the opposite effect, it incites people to become anti-Israel when they see all the senseless destruction.
Hamas may be using women and civilians as shields, but when Israel knows that and still chooses to kill those women and civilians knowing they are innocent, it is murder. A small minority of the population attacking you doesn't justify the murder of 1000s of innocent civilians.
Pretending the civilians in Gaza have any sort of say in what Hamas does is just putting on blinders to try to downplay the atrocities over there.
Israel knows exactly what is going on. They know the areas they are bombing are going to cause civilian casualties. They know Hamas tactics and they know Hamas isn't going to back down. Yet, they continue to murder civilians knowing it is not going to make any difference. In fact, it has the opposite effect, it incites people to become anti-Israel when they see all the senseless destruction.
Hamas may be using women and civilians as shields, but when Israel knows that and still chooses to kill those women and civilians knowing they are innocent, it is murder. A small minority of the population attacking you doesn't justify the murder of 1000s of innocent civilians.
Pretending the civilians in Gaza have any sort of say in what Hamas does is just putting on blinders to try to downplay the atrocities over there.
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Usually they start with phrases like "It's just like throwing rocks!" and "It's only like throwing punches!". Then they blame the other side for defending themselves against the guys trying their damnest to kill innocent civilians.
CheapLikeAFox
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If someone tries to shoot and kill me and I react by shooting into a crowd of people standing near them, I'm not defending myself. It's obvious you are very pro-Israel and have probably been spoon fed the pro-Israel agenda all your life, so it's no surprise you make illogical arguments to justify murder. I'm not defending Hamas. I won't even get into the reason there's a country named Israel and the very justifiable reason there is resentment towards them. The facts are that since this latest flare up, deaths of Palestinian civilians are in the 1000s and deaths of Israeli civilians can be counted on two hands.
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Again, it's not "myself" and "yourself". These are not singulars. The government of Gaza, a bunch of guys called Hamas who were elected by the people of the region are waging a war against the nation of Israel. Israel is attempting to stop this in an effort to defend its citizens. It's not a guy with a pistol in a mall or a guy throwing rocks or a guy yelling at a dog or whatever other asinine comparisons people need to make to diminish the fact that the government of Gaza is waging a war against Israel. It's not some random thugs or terrorists or extremists or criminals or a singular madman, it's the elected government there waging a war. It is appropriate for a nation to defend itself when attacked by another government. You want the civilian deaths to stop? Place your view on the government which is perpetrating the war by indiscriminately attacking Israel with explosive rockets.
:lol: Yeah, that's it. "You have a different opinion than me so... indoctrination! All free minded people think like me!!"
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CheapLikeAFox
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It's not the elected government members doing all this or ordering this. Do you even read up on any of this before you spew this stuff?
Hamas IS considered a terrorist organization by many countries. It did win Parliament, but that doesn't mean the entire country agrees with them. Obama is our president, but plenty of people make it clear they don't agree with his policies and they didn't vote for him. The kidnapping that sparked all this is suspected to be the work of Hamas members, but:
1. Israel hasn't been able to produce any PROOF that this is the case.
2. Do the actions of political party members suddenly become "official government actions" in your eyes?
That's ridiculous. Just because someone is a member of a political party doesn't turn their actions into "government actions." Do you choose to ignore the fact that even if Palestinians wanted Hamas to stop doing what they are doing there's nothing they can do? I certainly don't dictate US foreign policy even though I voted for the party in power.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Murder is murder. What Hamas does is murder and is wrong. What the Israeli government is doing is murder and equally wrong. I just choose to view everything through the same lens.
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Hamas is the leading government in Gaza. They share in a unity government over Palestine as a whole (with Fatah controlling the West Bank) but the Hamas-led government still controls Gaza.
Whether or not everyone agrees with Hamas in Gaza is as irrelevant as saying "Oh, it's just some US soldiers, not America!" if we were to start indiscriminately bombing some other nation. That said, there's supposed to be elections this year so I guess we'll see how much they support or don't support Hamas.
Are you joking? This isn't some random rogue legislator running around or something. These are agents being funded, provided for, armed and under the umbrella of the ruling Hamas government. They're funding tunnels with tax money and then using those tunnels to levy other taxes which they use to buy the rockets they're attacking Israel with. How on earth is that NOT a government action? They couldn't possibly be any MORE involved.
People want to ignore the role Hamas plays as the government in Gaza because it lets them say "Oh, those Israelis are blowing up buildings because of some terrorists!" They're not. They're blowing up buildings because men funded by, armed by and loyal to the government in Gaza are waging war on Israel from those buildings with the Hamas government's aid and support. But that doesn't sound as bad as "Blowing up a city just like trying to kill one guy in a shopping mall".
That said, we could go in circles here forever so I'm bowing out on this barring some major event to change the conversation.
RPGNinja
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Just because you got caught looking dumb doesn't mean you can back out and try to include Israel along with Hamas' terrorist activities. Nowhere does Israel call for the destruction of another race or state like Hamas does. They also believe that anyone who doesn't agree with their religious philosophy should be punished with death if you leave them.
Israel has no such claims because they are reasonable people. Stop pretending to be mad when Israel is defending itself from Hamas rockets. If Hamas is mad about being attacked with superior firepower THEN STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL. Doesn't get anymore simple than that.
But at this point I would love for Israel to step on their throat and wipe them out for good. Who cares if someone ends up "replacing" Hamas. They need to be sent a message.
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Seriously I never want to hear anybody say Islam is peaceful again. The same people who say that are the same ones who believe "moderate Muslims" exist and that Hamas is right no matter what.
Dude. You're stating the same rhetoric you're giving Palestinians three shades of hell for.
This crap like this and crap like "you want to bathe in the blood of babies"... it's no wonder there's no hope for peace in the middle east.
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Well as they keep saying, as long as its NOT written down it doesn't count.... Apparently actions don't count to some of those guys ..
Isn't Hamas negotiating the ceasefires? They must have some pull with the rocket firing dudes.
k Shouldn't they organize sweeps of Gaza to find and stop these "few" extremists who continually fire rockets into Israel and build elaborate tunnels with their own resources? Police your own populace if you don't want a neighbor who is being attacked to step in and do it for you. How much and what type of aid is Israel giving Gaza? Should they end it like we should end our aid to Israel (and every other freaking country)?I also gotta ask Berzirk, is Hamas following the Geneva Convention?
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Wait...so I make an analogy, and you say it's wrong to make these because it's too confusing, or inaccurate, or God knows what, so you counter with...making analogies. You win. I'm officially confused.It's not a direct comparison. Law enforcement and bullets are different from military and rockets. I really don't get the continual need to change the argument to into something else, "bullets", "punches", "bank robbers", etc. Just call it for exactly what it is...
For a real direct comparison: If someone was sitting on an apartment building over the border and using it as a staging area to fire rockets at my town while I was trying to live my life, go to work, drop the kids off at school, etc, I'd have zero issue with the military using a missile to level said apartment building regardless of how many rockets were intercepted by a defense system. To be honest, you almost certainly would be fine with it as well if it was your town.
On the flip side, if the local government came to your house, sat down on your roof, fired off rockets over the border at some random town and then said "sucks to be you!" and ran off before your house was leveled by a missile strike, whose fault would it be that your house was blown up? Oh yeah, but the whole human shield thing is "bullshit" because that's a lot easier than addressing the fact that this is exactly what's happening.
I'd have a lot easier time swallowing all the anti-Israel crap if the people spewing it put even a third as much effort into admitting what Hamas was doing and how
The best I can pull out of your argument is that you believe that if any rocket is fired out of a civilian area in Palestine, to a civilian area in Israel, regardless of the Israeli casualties, you are in favor of killing a lot of Palestinian civilians in retribution. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm sincerely trying to interpret your examples and make sure I'm following your beliefs.
I live in Oregon. If a Native American reservation was firing rockets into Oregon, and my government retaliated by leveling schools, killing kids, and restricting access to medical and humanitarian aid into the reservation, I would be against it. I would not think the response matched the action. To go biblical, I would call it a body for an eye.
So maybe that's it. You think it's OK for a bunch of innocent people to die, for each bad guy who dies. I guess we just disagree on that principle.
I heard that principles are for pussies.
Christsake, why is that singular point so hard for you to comprehend....OK, let's do it this way. Are you OK with, according to Israel, the US, UK, Canada, and a few others, a terrorist organization firing rockets at Israel from civilian areas, and having Israel's response be bombing neighborhoods, leveling schools, blocking humanitarian aid, and taking down electricity and water in response? That's exactly what's happening, there's no, imagine these guys are doing this, those guys are doing that, rocks, punches, malls, etc. You are honestly OK with, Israel's response, resulting in more than 3/4ths of the Palestinian deaths being civilians, including women, and young children? That's alright with you?
Thank God, most of the world isn't OK with it, most people think it's awful, and we're seeing the international backlash as compassionate hearts and minds are responding against excessive civilian deaths.
As to your point of Hamas, the elected government. Wait...so now they are an elected government? The cease-fires have to go through other countries because the US refuses to communicate with Hamas. So are they a rogue group of terrorists, or an official government? If they are official, then the US should immediately declare them as such, giving them direct authority to govern the area, carry on commerce, establish an official military, and Israel should have no power to block import or export into the territory..oh wait...there is that small detail that they aren't a recognized country and are technically considered an occupied territory. This also means that they don't have the legal grounds to declare war on another country. I guess you didn't understand that, because as such, by law it means Palestine is not bound by the Geneva Convention (which Israel agreed to be a part of). You don't understand the ramifications of Israel, the US, and nobody else considering Hamas to be an official government entity, or Palestine a country. It's actually quite comical because in the US and Israel's haste to show they are bed buddies and won't negotiate with terrorists...they keep Palestine as an occupied territory, which then puts a greater onus on Israel for their treatment towards them, legally. So educate yourself on the official Palestine status. That makes all the legal arguments moot, but like I said, I guess you didn't know any of that, so your ignorance is understandable.
You are funny. I wish I could be simple minded enough to look at issues the way you do, but unfortunately I have the correct number of chromosomes.
Finger_Shocker
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I remember when George Bush ( some of your guys favorite president ) decided to invade and "free" Iraq. In his and generals followup order they wanted a gov't that included a Shiites, Sunni, and Kurd gov't, so that by giving a voice and gov't to each group it would stop the sectarian violence..
I guess we all know who is not calling the shots for peace....
I guess we all know who is not calling the shots for peace....
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The irony writes itself.
Quick! Start backpedaling and saying how that doesn't count and yadda yadda and only if we were so smart as you with your Google University diploma, we'd all know that you're right...
I know I said I was done so I'll skip all the other obvious taunts and whatnot. That was too amusing to pass up though. Smugness only works if you're actually correct, you know.
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The first
ing sentence states "Palestinian Authority". You're denouncing Hamas, who you call the elected government and not a terrorist organization, then link to the unelected, US recognized leadership as the official government. So does that mean you think Hamas is the elected government, or is the PA?"The UN and the Swiss government have accepted requests from the Palestinian Authority (PA) to join 14 international treaties and conventions."
But I'll fully admit, that I had no idea the PA was accepted by the UN to be party to the Geneva Convention. I knew they wanted to and the US was pissed that they were going to try, but didn't know it happened. Apparently on April 12th of this year the Palestinian Authority was accepted. The article also details the occupation status that I expanded on in my post:
"Israeli authorities said this should not be applied in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip because they are no longer claimed by Egypt or Jordan, who ruled them before 1967. In addition, they claim that the Palestinian state has never existed."
I guess Israel doesn't recognize the country of Palestine and is currently trying to wipe them off the map. Maybe they started using Hamas' old charter.
RPGNinja
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Berzirk nobody takes you seriously on Islam when you support a terrorist organization in Hamas and your picture is a screaming Muslim radical.
If you have the correct number of chromosomes then how come you keep failing to understand basic concepts? It is either because you are blinded by "Allah" or maybe you should actually look at your number of chromosomes.
If you have the correct number of chromosomes then how come you keep failing to understand basic concepts? It is either because you are blinded by "Allah" or maybe you should actually look at your number of chromosomes.
RPGNinja
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Uh "Dude" Hamas wants Israel wiped for good and they attacked them and have been attacking since this whole thing started. You are trying to take my whole post out of context to make it look contradictory but it isn't even close.
Stop pretending to be one of those "independents" and trying to be fair. The more people with your type of thinking exists the longer this thing gets dragged out and MORE people die.
A cease fire is just another way for Hamas to keep regrouping and killing people and hiding amongst women and children like cowards.
Feeding the Abscess
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Not going to bother with most of the Israel love, but one point I would like to refute is that the Iron Dome is why Israel hasn't suffered many casualties. The Iron Dome, according to Israel, has stopped somewhere between 15-20% of the rockets fired into Israel.
That means that over 2,000 rockets have flown into Israel recently. And only 3 civilians have died. Call me a crazy conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't sound like Palestinian rockets are all that lethal.
This is like a 13 year old bully taking a 6 year old kid's lunch every day, and the kid throws a tomato at him. Hell, let's say he threw 20 tomatoes. The 13 year old proceeds to beat the shit out of the 6 year old, and everyone cheers the 13 year old for defending himself. It is insanity.
That means that over 2,000 rockets have flown into Israel recently. And only 3 civilians have died. Call me a crazy conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't sound like Palestinian rockets are all that lethal.
This is like a 13 year old bully taking a 6 year old kid's lunch every day, and the kid throws a tomato at him. Hell, let's say he threw 20 tomatoes. The 13 year old proceeds to beat the shit out of the 6 year old, and everyone cheers the 13 year old for defending himself. It is insanity.
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Syntax Error
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The Iron Dome system tracks rockets coming out of Gaza. If it calculates for them to land in an olive grove somewhere, it just lets them drop. If it calculates that they are going to hit a populated area, it launches an interceptor. This is to prevent the system from being overwhelmed trying to stop every rocket. The reason why it "only" stops 15-20% of the rockets is because 80-85% of the rockets are on a bad trajectory to hit anything (or anyone, really). Also, the interceptor rockets cost something like $50,000 each so using one every time a $500 rocket is headed into the desert is just poor management.
It's not a question of the rockets being lethal. It's a question of the lethal rockets having poor guidance, i.e. "none" once they're in the air.
I think he just wants to get in our pants...or maybe...he wants us to get into HIS pants...
An angry black guy, a radical muslim, and RPGNinja walk into a bar...RPGNinja calls the police and hides in the bathroom.I think he just wants to get in our pants...or maybe...he wants us to get into HIS pants...
So the setup takes awhile, but the punchline makes it well worth it.
asampedasjohor
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[quote name="Syntax Error" post="11992834" timestamp="1407503679"]The Iron Dome system tracks rockets coming out of Gaza. If it calculates for them to land in an olive grove somewhere, it just lets them drop. If it calculates that they are going to hit a populated area, it launches an interceptor. This is to prevent the system from being overwhelmed trying to stop every rocket. The reason why it "only" stops 15-20% of the rockets is because 80-85% of the rockets are on a bad trajectory to hit anything (or anyone, really). Also, the interceptor rockets cost something like $50,000 each so using one every time a $500 rocket is headed into the desert is just poor management.
It's not a question of the rockets being lethal. It's a question of the lethal rockets having poor guidance, i.e. "none" once they're in the air.[/quote]
Where u get this info? Any link?
It's not a question of the rockets being lethal. It's a question of the lethal rockets having poor guidance, i.e. "none" once they're in the air.[/quote]
Where u get this info? Any link?
Syntax Error
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Link 1
Link 2
Both say pretty much what I said. I'll admit that I winged the cost of a rocket at $500 largely for alliteration with "$50,000". The Discovery link says "under $1,000". Likewise, the Discovery link backs up my $50,000 per interceptor missile cost, but the GlobalNews link says up to $100,000.
Anyway, the technical details are the same: rockets are tracked and only the ones headed for populated areas are intercepted.
Link 2
Both say pretty much what I said. I'll admit that I winged the cost of a rocket at $500 largely for alliteration with "$50,000". The Discovery link says "under $1,000". Likewise, the Discovery link backs up my $50,000 per interceptor missile cost, but the GlobalNews link says up to $100,000.
Anyway, the technical details are the same: rockets are tracked and only the ones headed for populated areas are intercepted.
One more from CNN:
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Syntax Error
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This Jane's article gives some harder numbers for the system's effectiveness.
One confusion here is that 265 rockets out of 1,260 is 81%. So the percentage of rockets that actually justified interception is close to the same percentage successfully intercepted once engaged. It's easy for someone unfamiliar with the system to read that 1,260 rockets were fired and that the Iron Dome has an ~83% interception rate and assume this means 265 rockets landed in populated areas. In reality, most of the rockets launched were "ignored" and landed in the middle of a field somewhere without incident.
Oh, and I'm just working off the figures and percentages given in the article. Undoubtedly the numbers of rockets is different now although there's no reason to assume the percentages are significantly different.
If the Iron Dome intercepted 86% of the rockets it engaged, that would be about 265 rockets that were headed towards populated areas out of 1,260 rockets. One of the other articles I read said that approximately 1-in-10 rockets intercepted gets through the Iron Dome system so that matches close to the 86% rate.
One confusion here is that 265 rockets out of 1,260 is 81%. So the percentage of rockets that actually justified interception is close to the same percentage successfully intercepted once engaged. It's easy for someone unfamiliar with the system to read that 1,260 rockets were fired and that the Iron Dome has an ~83% interception rate and assume this means 265 rockets landed in populated areas. In reality, most of the rockets launched were "ignored" and landed in the middle of a field somewhere without incident.
Oh, and I'm just working off the figures and percentages given in the article. Undoubtedly the numbers of rockets is different now although there's no reason to assume the percentages are significantly different.
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Finger_Shocker
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delete
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RPGNinja
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Uh oh. The Muslim radical ran out of pretend facts. Now cue the "pretend laughter" and acting like he isn't all pissy.
Oh oh! Tell us the story about how Hamas isn't a terrorist organization!
Squarehard
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RPGNinja
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I am glad you are annoyed by it because I love LOLing in your face all day long at your posts.
Maybe you will get so annoyed you will learn to not be an Anti-Semite.
The world needs more happiness!! I'm glad that you find time in the day to LOL.
(a few generations back on my Father's side, a grandfather named Solomon Israel was a little bit, kinda Jewish-wait...does that make me a self-hating, terrorist, extremist, charming and whimsical, Muslim, Jew??! The horror!
Shalom!!!
RPGNinja
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Ah yes time for you to be overly sarcastic when you have nothing left.
No need to lie about your family history either it is obvious you are a racist. And if that were even true I wouldn't announce that to your brothers in Hamas!
Never minding the fact that the only jokes Hamas wants to hear are the ones about Jews dying or women being slaves.
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bread's done