The Nightmare of Christian Cults

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This is a great read. For some reason people get really animated about Scientology but generally give fanatical Christianity a free pass. I always admire someone willing to speak the truth about the most powerful cults in our midst.

I particularly like the concluding paragraphs:

Blaming Satan was always safer than excessive reflection. "We can't explain it, we can't understand," Dobson declared. "We say, 'Lord, someday we will understand, but today we don't.' "
There was really little else Dobson could say. Murray's parents were not neglectful of their son, nor were they intentionally abusive. By all accounts, they raised him in faithful accordance with the teachings of the Christian right's leading self-help gurus. In their cloistered world, where home-schooling is viewed as an ideal alternative to "government schools," and where the rod is rarely spared, they were model parents. Murray's killing spree thus reflected less on his parents than on the all-encompassing authoritarian culture that Dobson had helped to shape. When practiced in the real world, the movement's "family values" sometimes produced some unusually dysfunctional families. Only by blaming Satan and his minions for Murray's acts could the Christian right avoid acknowledging this absolutely damning indictment of its ideology.

This sort of reasoning had been seen before, from figures ranging from Ted Bundy to Tom DeLay to Ted Haggard. When confronted with their own crimes and sins, these movement icons found that faulting the prince of darkness was far easier than accepting personal responsibility.
Click to expand...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090921/blumenthal

Edit: People keep pointing out that there are moderate Christians who do good work, and I agree. I wanted to talk about the free pass given to Christian fanatics and cults, so I changed the title.
 
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I read most of this, and all I can say is that it's not surprising. I feel bad for this poor kid though. Nobody should have to go through what he went through. Sadly though, I bet it happens all the time. This is just another reason for me to dislike religion.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']who in the world gets animated about Scientology other then really cool kids behind a computer screen on the internet.[/QUOTE]

Hello:

800px-Anon_London_Feb10_TCR_Protest.jpg
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']ya, anonymous. wahoo, a whole 8000 people that protested world wide.[/QUOTE]

I heard there were over 9000.
 
Jesus. I haven't even looked at those videos and my hippie sensors are already flashing red.

Thanks a lot. I just got those things to turn off!
 
Good god... I only got 30 sec in on the first video. Probably too much...

So... I guess I'm slow today but, who are the really cool kids behind a computer screen on the internet?
 
As an evil Christian, I can honestly take offense to this quote by Camoor..." For some reason people get really animated about Scientology but generally give fanatical Christianity a free pass"...first of all there is nothing fanatical about people who sit in a church for an hour, listen to scriptures and say prayers, seems pretty docile to me and entirely optional, the media and TV such as Family Gay, Simpsons, and comedy show regulary bashes Christianity on a daily basis, yes I get it, I should have a sense of humor and I do, I just never see that much hatred about other religions that people rip like Judiasm, Islam, or Buddism. I can't remember the last day I got through without some detesting the religion for what I don't know. I've never seen a Christian do anything fanatical and the religion is all about helping the sick and poor, giving to charities, and using your time and talents to help others. Can someone explain to me in more than a sentence why the hate, besides that many Republicans are Christians, let's not forget that Obama is a Christian :).

P.S. I'm sure by the time we are all a teenager at the latest we can pretty much choose not to go to Church, Synagogue, etc or practice at any level, so don't compare religion to some believe it and convert or die because the country gets more liberal by the day and I don't see any huge religious reforms that affect anyone lives so just chill and let people believe what they want, it's ok to believe in something and you shouldn't be mocked for it.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']You know it's a slow news day when the religion bashing threads have to pop up.[/QUOTE]
It seems like there is a new one every week now.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Jesus. I haven't even looked at those videos and my hippie sensors are already flashing red.

Thanks a lot. I just got those things to turn off![/QUOTE]

I gotta get a pic of me in one of those masks now. Give me a minute... this ones for you.

Alright, done.

DSC00872.jpg

This makes me a cool kid on the internet now, right? Is there a CAG badge for that?
 
[quote name='The Crotch']...

Next time, take the glasses off, man.[/QUOTE]

Never. They made it 10x more awkward to see. I've likely burned that into your brain now.

Oh, btw, dyed my hair purple.

picshur.jpgp
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']You know it's a slow news day when the religion bashing threads have to pop up.[/QUOTE]

I think there's a difference between a cult and a religion, and what the family was practicing falls into the former IMHO.

We can discuss mainstream Christianity if people want but that wasn't my intention. In case people couldn't be bothered to skim the first paragraph, the title is a direct quote from Murray - "Murray's mind became crowded with thoughts of death, destruction, and the killings he would soon carry out in the name of avenging what he called his 'nightmare of Christianity' " The type of Christianity practiced by the family differs from other cults in name only. The point is - it's easier to operate as a cult in America if you hide behind the cross.
 
There hasn't been much need for comment in this thread, Mr. Utah Raptor has gone and put me in, "Oh, for fucks sake..." mode. And so, I submit for your approval...
[quote name='jputahraptor']As an evil Christian, I can honestly take offense to this quote by Camoor..." For some reason people get really animated about Scientology but generally give fanatical Christianity a free pass"...[/quote]
I am not entirely sure what you are offended about. Now, I disagree that it is given a free pass, but perhaps that's just a matter of the circles that Camoor and I run in being significantly different.
[quote name='jputahraptor']first of all there is nothing fanatical about people who sit in a church for an hour, listen to scriptures and say prayers, seems pretty docile to me and entirely optional...[/quote]
And it is. I can't think of many people who would call that fanatical. And I could be wrong - haven't read this thread too closely - but I don't think anyone in here labeled that as fanatical save for you. Fanatical, komrade, is the teacher that burned a cross into his students' arms. Fanatical are the parents who chose to pray for their diabetic daughter rather than seek medical help - right up to the day she died. So spare me the persecution complex, yeah?
[quote name='jputahraptor'] the media and TV such as Family Gay, Simpsons, and comedy show regulary bashes Christianity on a daily basis, yes I get it, I should have a sense of humor and I do, I just never see that much hatred about other religions that people rip like Judiasm, Islam, or Buddism.[/quote]Hatred? fucks sake, Matt Groening's a god damned Unitarian. As for the focus on Christianity, there are two main reasons. First, confirmation bias - Jewish jokes in particular are perhaps more common than Christianity jokes. Pay more attention. Second, you're the majority. Of course people are going to make fun of you. Where's the fun in making fun of Buddhism?
[quote name='jputahraptor']I can't remember the last day I got through without some detesting the religion for what I don't know.[/quote]
Fair 'nough. I can't remember the last day I got through without someone detesting something-or-other that I believe.
[quote name='jputahraptor']I've never seen a Christian do anything fanatical[/quote]
Links for the examples that I gave above - and many more - can be given on demand. Komrade.
[quote name='jputahraptor']and the religion is all about helping the sick and poor, giving to charities, and using your time and talents to help others.[/quote]
Should be != is.
[quote name='jputahraptor']Can someone explain to me in more than a sentence why the hate, besides that many Republicans are Christians, let's not forget that Obama is a Christian :).[/quote]Well, I don't hate Christianity. I'm sure there are some people here that do - this place has enough vitriol to go 'round - but unfortunately, said bile only raises the hackles of people like yourself who then see all criticism as blind hatred.

[quote name='fullmetalfan720']It seems like there is a new one every week now.[/QUOTE]
Really? I... suppose you could point those threads out to me, then?
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']700 years ago. Please do better.

Oh, crazy Calvinists. That's the best you can do?[/QUOTE]

Still fanatics. I knew someone would say crusades are too long ago, but lets be honest, many christians still feel they are higher than others/if you don't believe us you're going to hell/difference is wrong/gays are bad/etc.

I don't have a problem with religion, I have a problem with the people that use religion as a means to hold themselves up on a pedestal while condemning others. Too many people use religion for their own agenda, and not in a good, positive for the whole way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all Christians are fanatics, nor are all hateful/etc. but to say Christians don't do fanatical things is horseshit =P
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']700 years ago. Please do better.

Oh, crazy Calvinists. That's the best you can do?[/QUOTE]

god-hates-$$$s.jpg


I think it will be easier if we all accept that there are plenty of religious people out there (including Christians!) that cannot wait, indeed, anticipate the end of the world.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237577
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236684
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235510
Seems like there has been a large amount of fighting over religion lately.[/QUOTE]
Hey, nice links. Not... not actually what I asked for, but what I figured you'd post. You'll note that I was looking for the supposedly ubiquitous "religion bashing threads". If those are "religion bashing threads", then I suppose this is a mascot bashing thread and this is an economy bashing thread.
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']
700 years ago. Please do better.[/QUOTE]
Christ almighty. Teacher burns cross into student's arm. That was, like, last year.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Fanatical are the parents who chose to pray for their diabetic daughter rather than seek medical help - right up to the day she died.[/QUOTE]

Quick correction, then off to bed for another out of town sojourn.

They continued (continue?) to pray for her to be brought back to life. They didn't stop praying for her to be healed just because death cured her diabetes.
 
[quote name='georox']Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all Christians are fanatics, nor are all hateful/etc. but to say Christians don't do fanatical things is horseshit =P[/QUOTE]

What does this even prove? You could made the same abstract generalization about any group of more than trifling size.
 
No where in the bible does it say you should avoid seeking medical help and pray to god for health. Christian Science is neither Christian nor Science.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor'] I've never seen a Christian do anything fanatical and the religion is all about helping the sick and poor, giving to charities, and using your time and talents to help others. Can someone explain to me in more than a sentence why the hate, besides that many Republicans are Christians, let's not forget that Obama is a Christian :).
[/QUOTE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)
 
[quote name='spmahn']No where in the bible does it say you should avoid seeking medical help and pray to god for health. Christian Science is neither Christian nor Science.[/QUOTE]

It's Christian to some people depending how they interpret it. Claiming something isn't Christian/Some other religion is very hard, as it is all about interpretation.
 
This question is for anyone who thinks the article is bashing religion -

Prior to this tragic event, do you believe Murray's parents and church could have handled the situation better and possibly saved 4 innocent lives as well as the life of their son?

Who do you believe was responsible for Murray's actions? Was it wholly on Murray? Was it the different cults or goth culture he joined up with after trying to leave the type of Evangelical Christianity practiced by his parents? Was it the devil?
 
[quote name='Magus8472']If you think think that the anti-gay marriage camp is made up entirely of religious conservatives you may be in for a rude awakening.[/QUOTE]

Oh no, I understand just plain ol' stupid people make up for that too. :bouncy:
 
[quote name='lilboo']Oh no, I understand just plain ol' stupid people make up for that too. :bouncy:[/QUOTE]

Heh, fair enough.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']As an evil Christian, I can honestly take offense to this quote by Camoor..." For some reason people get really animated about Scientology but generally give fanatical Christianity a free pass"...first of all there is nothing fanatical about people who sit in a church for an hour, listen to scriptures and say prayers, seems pretty docile to me and entirely optional, the media and TV such as Family Gay, Simpsons, and comedy show regulary bashes Christianity on a daily basis, yes I get it, I should have a sense of humor and I do, I just never see that much hatred about other religions that people rip like Judiasm, Islam, or Buddism. I can't remember the last day I got through without some detesting the religion for what I don't know. I've never seen a Christian do anything fanatical and the religion is all about helping the sick and poor, giving to charities, and using your time and talents to help others. Can someone explain to me in more than a sentence why the hate, besides that many Republicans are Christians, let's not forget that Obama is a Christian :).

P.S. I'm sure by the time we are all a teenager at the latest we can pretty much choose not to go to Church, Synagogue, etc or practice at any level, so don't compare religion to some believe it and convert or die because the country gets more liberal by the day and I don't see any huge religious reforms that affect anyone lives so just chill and let people believe what they want, it's ok to believe in something and you shouldn't be mocked for it.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes, Christians have never done harm to anyone.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']If you think think that the anti-gay marriage camp is made up entirely of religious conservatives you may be in for a rude awakening.[/QUOTE]
So far as i know, hatred of homosexuals is not a naturally occurring thing. Religion, Christianity in particular, probably had the most influence in creating it. The Romans had no problems with homosexuality, because (again as far as i know) their religion did not demonize it. It was demonized for a while as a Greek act, since the Romans looked down upon Greek behavior, but their religion did not forbid it.

Now i wouldn't say that everyone who voted against gay marriage was religious, but their bigotry certainly has deep roots in religion.
 
[quote name='camoor']
We can discuss mainstream Christianity if people want but that wasn't my intention. In case people couldn't be bothered to skim the first paragraph, the title is a direct quote from Murray - "Murray's mind became crowded with thoughts of death, destruction, and the killings he would soon carry out in the name of avenging what he called his 'nightmare of Christianity' " The type of Christianity practiced by the family differs from other cults in name only. The point is - it's easier to operate as a cult in America if you hide behind the cross.[/QUOTE]
What's a cult? Furthermore, what's wrong with being a cult?
See the dictionary definition.
1 : formal religious veneration : worship
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Going by the dictionary, Al Gore's followers are a cult.

[quote name='georox']
I don't have a problem with religion, I have a problem with the people that use religion as a means to hold themselves up on a pedestal while condemning others. Too many people use religion for their own agenda, and not in a good, positive for the whole way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all Christians are fanatics, nor are all hateful/etc. but to say Christians don't do fanatical things is horseshit =P[/QUOTE]

Well fine then, but you may want to change the thread title then.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']So far as i know, hatred of homosexuals is not a naturally occurring thing. Religion, Christianity in particular, probably had the most influence in creating it. The Romans had no problems with homosexuality, because (again as far as i know) their religion did not demonize it. It was demonized for a while as a Greek act, since the Romans looked down upon Greek behavior, but their religion did not forbid it.

Now i wouldn't say that everyone who voted against gay marriage was religious, but their bigotry certainly has deep roots in religion.[/QUOTE]

Actually the biggest hate for homosexuality came from Islamic influences. Christianity is full of saints compared to them.

And I'm not sure on this, but I think the biggest murderers of homosexuals were the Nazis. Even if you count people from all of time itself.

Sorry, just giving (decently) pointless facts.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']What's a cult? Furthermore, what's wrong with being a cult?
See the dictionary definition.
1 : formal religious veneration : worship
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Going by the dictionary, Al Gore's followers are a cult.
[/QUOTE]

Ahh semantics. Cut me a little slack, I'm obviously not refering to 'cult classics' or political rhetoric.

In modern parlance, I believe a mixture of 3 and 5 (as in devotion to a person) is usually what people mean when they talk about cults. I'm trying to differentiate between the religions where people who goto church every other sunday and the groups that use isolation, indoctrination, and other mind control techniques to insure obeidience.

You do bring up a good point though - ideally we should probably refer to these mind-control groups with a term different from cult. It makes it too easy to lump non-mainstream religions in with the groups headed by kooks like Charles Manson or Jim Jones.

[quote name='thrustbucket']Well fine then, but you may want to change the thread title then.[/QUOTE]

But this thread is about the nightmare of Christianity experienced by Murray. If you read the piece you realize it's not an indictment of the religion as a whole - rather it is a very personal view of a particular brand of Christianity from a man who was destroyed. Just as everything that glitters is not gold, there are cults masquerading as Christian that do not speak for the crucified one.

Put it this way - if there was a sect in the midwest with diehard communists, a group that home-schooled, fed their kids communist propaganda 24/7, and this poor guy was trying to break free and it resulted in this tragedy, would you feel the same way? Would you be complaining as much about the title?
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Actually the biggest hate for homosexuality came from Islamic influences. Christianity is full of saints compared to them.[/QUOTE]

Pre-Islamic Islamic influences I presume.

(Christian leaders have been hating homosexuality since before Islam existed, but hey, whatever)

[quote name='AdultLink']And I'm not sure on this, but I think the biggest murderers of homosexuals were the Nazis. Even if you count people from all of time itself.[/QUOTE]

I guess they were influenced by Islam.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Well fine then, but you may want to change the thread title then.[/QUOTE]
Uh... that's Geo, man. You want camoor.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Pre-Islamic Islamic influences I presume.

(Christian leaders have been hating homosexuality since before Islam existed, but hey, whatever)



I guess they were influenced by Islam.[/QUOTE]

You must not have read much history, because everyone has hated everyone for everything. It was perfectrly fine to be racist as far back as the early to mid 1900's!

Humans have always been a bloodthursty culture. With this said, the islamic bible actually says to kill infidels. You could give the same thing from the bible, but the bible is written in such a way that things can be interpreted in many different ways.
 
[quote name='AdultLink']You must not have read much history, because everyone has hated everyone for everything. It was perfectrly fine to be racist as far back as the early to mid 1900's!

Humans have always been a bloodthursty culture. With this said, the islamic bible actually says to kill infidels. You could give the same thing from the bible, but the bible is written in such a way that things can be interpreted in many different ways.[/QUOTE]

So it's because everybody hates everybody now, not because of Islamic influences?

Or because when Muslims use Islam to kill homosexuals it's a more legitimate influence than when Christians use Christianity to kill homosexuals?
 
[quote name='AdultLink']You must not have read much history, because everyone has hated everyone for everything. It was perfectrly fine to be racist as far back as the early to mid 1900's!

Humans have always been a bloodthursty culture. With this said, the islamic bible actually says to kill infidels. You could give the same thing from the bible, but the bible is written in such a way that things can be interpreted in many different ways.[/QUOTE]

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Click to expand...

AdultLink, I am curious, please explain the various and multitudinous ways this quote from the bible can be interpreted.
 
[quote name='SpazX']So it's because everybody hates everybody now, not because of Islamic influences?

Or because when Muslims use Islam to kill homosexuals it's a more legitimate influence than when Christians use Christianity to kill homosexuals?[/QUOTE]

Err, no, people hate each other because humanity is a bloods thursty culture...

If you notice I also brought the Nazis into this. It isn't about influence as it's about how crazy you are about your beliefs.
 
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