The Official Lair Thread - Update with Analog Control + DLC on April 15

[quote name='DomLando']Yeah same here. I would like to see what they say even though to me there reviews are never really detailed. I love how Play gives these high scores and then a lot of other publications rip on a game. I usually like Play's reviews and read the Lair one. Seemed like they enjoyed the game more for it's graphics then game play.[/QUOTE]

Very true about EGM, which is why sometimes it's hard to take their reviews seriously when they are very vague about why a game got said score. As far as reviews go, I think EGM is the worst because of that.

GameInformer usually has pretty good length reviews...it's just their scores are sometimes off. I wonder what they'll say about LAIR.

Still, I really do want to play it before reading any reviews so I can form my own opinion.
 
Stolen from Gamefaqs:
crispin says the combat system is confusing, and the sixaxis controls don't always work the way they should. lock-on system is also jacked.
greg ford says the camera is frustrating in ground combat. the wide open levels hold a lot of potential but ultimately don't deliver
garnett says it's a "frustrating disappointment" with a few bright spots
Click to expand...
This user just paraphrased the review.
 
[quote name='DomLando']Yeah same here. I would like to see what they say even though to me there reviews are never really detailed. I love how Play gives these high scores and then a lot of other publications rip on a game. I usually like Play's reviews and read the Lair one. Seemed like they enjoyed the game more for it's graphics then game play.[/QUOTE]

And Play actually writes a two page review on it instead of 4 people spewing out a few sentences.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Stolen from Gamefaqs:

This user just paraphrased the review.[/QUOTE]
Huh.

Well I'm hoping (like with every other PS3 game) that you'll be able to turn SixAxis control off.

I wonder if combat really is confusing or that was just something they wanted to throw in to help justify the low score.
 
[quote name='Vendetta'](despite the 8.8 for Twilight Princess compared to Tony Hawk 3's 10 >_>)[/quote]
How the hell do you make a comparison between two games of two different genres that came out at vastly different times?

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Actually, most video-game reviews make no sense, statistically. I mean, according to the definition of "average," and the dynamic nature of the term, many more games should be getting "average" scores. Almost all videogame reviews have a massive, massive, massive positive bias. They use an absolute scale, rather than a relative one, which I think is odd sometimes.[/quote]
One of the major reasons why the majority of game reviews are somewhat positive is because the review sites don't review every single game that comes out. Because A) publishers rarely send review copies out and B)most of the readers of gaming sites and mags don't give a shit about those games, so it'd just be wasted space. It's a good thing that they actually pick out the games that their readers want to hear about and not spend the time to review That's So Raven 2: The Ravening.
 
[quote name='rodeojones903']And Play actually writes a two page review on it instead of 4 people spewing out a few sentences.[/QUOTE]
Yeah they do. And with Play I really don't necessarily look at the score, because there scores tend to be a little high. But the detail in there written reviews usually help more than say EGM.
 
Personally I hope the high reviews are correct, as Lair is one of the few PS3 exclusives I'm looking forward to, and I want some good games when I finally buy the system sometime down the road. I loved the Rogue Squadron games, and I always thought Lair was a somewhat interesting concept, but I really want a next gen Rogue Squadron game from them.
 
From what i've seen of this generation, EGM and 1up.com are totally bias, so is Gamespot. At least wait until IGN reviews it before deciding to buy it or not.

I was really looking forward to Lair, but if there really are control problems like EGM says, I might pass on it.
 
[quote name='FriskyTanuki']One of the major reasons why the majority of game reviews are somewhat positive is because the review sites don't review every single game that comes out. Because A) publishers rarely send review copies out and B)most of the readers of gaming sites and mags don't give a shit about those games, so it'd just be wasted space. It's a good thing that they actually pick out the games that their readers want to hear about and not spend the time to review That's So Raven 2: The Ravening.[/QUOTE]
I know. And I still don't think that the crap games would be enough to properly balance a relative review scale. Again, I suppose that the scales are absolute, instead of relative.
 
[quote name='FriskyTanuki']How the hell do you make a comparison between two games of two different genres that came out at vastly different times?

[/QUOTE]

It is a bit unfair to compare the two reviews, but Tony Hawk 3 getting a perfect score was a bit of an absurd notion back then and still is today. I did buy the game shortly after its release and enjoyed it a fair amount, but in some ways it was actually a step back from its predecessor. It's impossible to define a universally accepted notion of a "perfect game," but a key aspect I see in a "10/10" game is that it seemingly leaves nothing with which to improve upon. That clearly wasn't, and isn't, the case with THPS3.

The same reviewer reviewed Twilight Princess years later, and he caught a fair amount of flak (mostly from Nintendo fanboys) for the "8.8" score, one of the key reasons being that an extreme sports game was awarded a perfect score from the same guy a few years prior. I personally think the 8.8 is a fair score for Twilight Princess, although I unintentionally made it seem otherwise from the manner in which I phrased my previous statement.

I didn't mean for the comment to be taken seriously, as I tried to denote with the emoticon at the end of it. I just thought someone might get a slight kick, or maybe even a minute rise, out of being reminded of that argument being made by a fair number of individuals when Gamespot put out its TP review.
 
[quote name='Vendetta']It is a bit unfair to compare the two reviews, but Tony Hawk 3 getting a perfect score was a bit of an absurd notion back then and still is today. I did buy the game shortly after its release and enjoyed it a fair amount, but in some ways it was actually a step back from its predecessor. It's impossible to define a universally accepted notion of a "perfect game," but a key aspect I see in a "10/10" game is that it seemingly leaves nothing with which to improve upon. That clearly wasn't, and isn't, the case with THPS3.[/quote]
That may be the thing, your expectation of what a 10 means (perfect) and their expectations of what it means (the best game out . You're essentially expecting that the 10 never be given out because no game is perfect and unable to be improved upon.

[quote name='Vendetta']The same reviewer reviewed Twilight Princess years later, and he caught a fair amount of flak (mostly from Nintendo fanboys) for the "8.8" score, one of the key reasons being that an extreme sports game was awarded a perfect score from the same guy a few years prior. I personally think the 8.8 is a fair score for Twilight Princess, although I unintentionally made it seem otherwise from the manner in which I phrased my previous statement.[/quote]
And that's pretty much the whole reason why the comparison is ludicris. If he gave Wind Waker a 10, you'd have a valid comparison, but to bring in Tony Hawk 3 is just stretching a point that wasn't all that valid to start with. I do largely agree with the scoring, maybe not for the same reasons.

[quote name='Vendetta']I didn't mean for the comment to be taken seriously, as I tried to denote with the emoticon at the end of it. I just thought someone might get a slight kick, or maybe even a minute rise, out of being reminded of that argument being made by a fair number of individuals when Gamespot put out its TP review.[/quote]
It's just a reminder of how stupid the people can get about review scores, like say GameSpot readers petitioning to have Jeff fired and demanding a rereview because they didn't like the score.
 
You know, I just preordered this game and now I have no clue whether to cancel or not.

EGM takes a lot of heat and Play gets some love for their reviews in this thread, but I always go back to this--

Sonic the Hedgehog--XBOX 360 & PS3

PLAY--9
EGM--4
 
[quote name='Plinko']You know, I just preordered this game and now I have no clue whether to cancel or not.

EGM takes a lot of heat and Play gets some love for their reviews in this thread, but I always go back to this--

Sonic the Hedgehog--XBOX 360 & PS3

PLAY--9
EGM--4[/quote]

i'd take the avg...around a 6 or a 7...and that is what I though of Sonic..
 
[quote name='Vendetta']blah blah blah[/QUOTE]TPHS 3 deserved the 10, as I think it was a perfect balance for the Tony Hawk series. You say it should only get a 10 if it can't be improved upon, and if you've played any Tony Hawk games lately, you'd be inclined to agree that it's gone downhill since then.

Now, standards are obviously higher, hence TP's 8.8 (still a great score). Comparing a review in 2006 to a review in 2001 is fucking stupid anyway. You complain as if Tony Hawk 3 came out yesterday and it got a perfect 10, but at the time it was the best of the best.
 
I'm not going to read one damn review of this game... I'm going to buy it, love it, and then I'll go back and read the reviews and end up second guessing myself. If the game looks good and is interesting, I'm going to pick it up... I don't trust these review sites too much, they put too much of their personal feelings into the review; what we need is totally objective reviews that analyze games, and give real reviews. Reviews don't do much to really 'justify' their review.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']EGM gave lair a:

5/10 5.5/10 6/10[/quote]

Really! Let's begin several pages of debate about it RIGHT NOW!
 
[quote name='TimPV3']blah blah blah
[/QUOTE]


That's fine if you think that THPS3 deserves its 10/10; you are entitled to your own opinion after all. I am also entitled to one as well, and it is my personal opinion that THPS3 did not deserve a perfect score.

If you've read the subsequent posts, you'll see that the statement you so eloquently quoted has been touched upon between FriskyTanuki and myself. I do remember reasonably well what it was like when THPS3 got a 10, as Jeff's glowing review was one of the reasons I bought the game, in addition to enjoying the first two on the Dreamcast.

I've also played the more recent Tony Hawk games, including Project 8, and I am not inclined to agree with your opinion that the series has gone downhill since the third installment. I believe the series declined after THPS4, which had marginally improved over 3, until Project 8. The one thing I had against THPS3 was the continuation of the series' repetitive gameplay structure, and Project 8 deals with that criticism admirably. P8 is definitely a step in the right direction for the series.

When you say "best of the best," I'll assume you mean in its genre. I won't argue that THPS3 was the best game in its genre when it was released, but that aspect doesn't make a game perfect for me, especially since its genre was still relatively new.

As I previously said, I didn't quite mean for my comment to be taken very seriously, which you've interpreted as complaining. It was merely a slight jab at an issue a fair number of people took to heart when Twilight Princess' review was put up on Gamespot.
 
I had really high hopes for this game considering who developed it.. but I guess nobody can make a game like this unless it has Panzer Dragoon in the title. Then again.. the ground combat in the last Rogue Squadron suffered from the same problems.
 
It looks like Lair may have been delayed, as I noticed while moving some stuff on my Gamefly Q that Lair now said it's coming out August 30. They're sometimes a little off on dates, so I checked out some other sites. Best Buy has a new release date of 9/15 for the game while CC has it listed for next week :whistle2:s, so it doesn't seem like something that everybody may know about if it's actually happening. It seems a little strange to delay it now since the game went gold last week, I believe.
 
Impressions from a preview disc....

May not want to read this....
From TTP over at GAF who gets review copies.
This is a preview copy, but does have the new vegetation as seen in recent pics... so you never know...

Just got the *preview* code and spent some time with it in the comfort of my sofa and I must say the frame rate is all over the place.

Didn't give me this impression at all at E3, but here, in a more intimate environment, me and him alone, the times where it stays at 30fps are so few they don't even matter.

Factor 5 either screwed big time or this version is as old as baby Gesus (albeit it honestly doesnt look so - even the gallery and the making of stuff is in there already)

Still having some fun here and there (just passed the "sea snake" boss - which attempts to pull a God of War in terms of QTEs but honestly fails due to the whole clunkiness of the engine), but the frame rate is killing it atm. That, plus the low-colors palette makes it very hard to even spot enemies flying over the background forcing me to use the "special vision" more that I'd like to (need to push down on the D-pad to activate it). Mission flow is interrupted like every minute by some quick cut-scene showing stuff like new enemies coming in or stuff like that. You cant even remotely understand how much I HATE THIS. Also, during missions there is A LOT of talking between allies. Which makes me wonder: how the heck can this guys talk to each other when they are flying miles away on their dragons!? They don't have mics for sure. Maybe somekind of telepathy.

Funny thing is I'm having ZERO issues with the motion controls. Actually the fluidity of the controls exacerbate the abysmal frame rate. I like to pull the rains for the 180°. Now that I got it, it works 100% of the times. Lock on works fine. I think some reviewers complained about it, but I dont see what's wrong. It's your standard press-shoulder-button-to-lock-on procedure. Maybe it's not the lock on per se, but rather the difficulty in understanding whenever or not you actually have a target in sight to lock on onto. As I said, it's hard to understand what's going on in front of you due to the frame rate/low color palette thing.

Dunno what so say rather than I do really hope Factor 5 did some magic between this preview code and what they are gonna deliver to the market. BTW, this is the "new vegetation" version.

On the bright side, we got the leaderboards. You can compare other people stats with yours, ADD A FRIEND right from here (u just click on the nick on the LB to get that option) and bring up the friends list in order to send/receive messages. Music is awesome (albeit broken in that it skips between in game and cutscenes for some odd reasons).

DISCLAIMER
- All of this comes from a frame rate whore
- Had a go with the silcky smoothness of Warhawk before jumping into this. Might have "influenced" me.

Talking about graphics
Not really. Ok, here is the thing. Bad frame rate destroys any beauty to my eyes. It's like Monica Bellucci with her head turned 180° on the other side. Having said that, I'd say Lair is a hit and miss graphics wise. Great dragon (yours), kinda low poly enemy dragons. Mauntain environments look as interesting as those of a Flight Simulator: u get closer, you see bad things happening. The HDR is terribly overdone and kills detail (hides the lack of it?). Human build structures, on the other side, are great. The Bridge is awesome. The city, the temple, the towers. You can count the bricks on them one by one. The sea is cool, but those waves, while cool, are totally unrealistic. Esplosions are old gen stuff. Nothing to be really proud of. The sea monster wet "carapace"? INCREDIBLE. Low color palette really KILLS avery technical accomplishment here. Yeah, those Mantas are HUGE, but get closer and it's like you HDTV isnt displaying 1/10000th of the colors he could and you see plenty of edges on those models as well.

Overall, I'd say Warhawk still impresses me the most albeit I can see it does less technically. What am I saying. Warhawk destroys Lair in every department. Even the sea looks better in Warhawk. Kinda whish they didnt kill the single player mode.

Hmm, one of the Insomniac devs says this about the game:
Ok, I've only been playing it this morning - but I wouldn't dismiss the game so quickly.I really am enjoying the flight controls, and I'm also a huge Rogue Squadron fan and you can definitely feel some of that influence.

I've only played a few levels though.
Click to expand...



.
 
[quote name='dallow']Impressions from a preview disc....

May not want to read this....
From TTP over at GAF who gets review copies.

Just got the *preview* code and spent some time with it in the comfort of my sofa and I must say the frame rate is all over the place.

Didn't give me this impression at all at E3, but here, in a more intimate environment, me and him alone, the times where it stays at 30fps are so few they don't even matter.

Factor 5 either screwed big time or this version is as old as baby Gesus (albeit it honestly doesnt look so - even the gallery and the making of stuff is in there already)

Still having some fun here and there (just passed the "sea snake" boss - which attempts to pull a God of War in terms of QTEs but honestly fails due to the whole clunkiness of the engine), but the frame rate is killing it atm. That, plus the low-colors palette makes it very hard to even spot enemies flying over the background forcing me to use the "special vision" more that I'd like to (need to push down on the D-pad to activate it). Mission flow is interrupted like every minute by some quick cut-scene showing stuff like new enemies coming in or stuff like that. You cant even remotely understand how much I HATE THIS. Also, during missions there is A LOT of talking between allies. Which makes me wonder: how the heck can this guys talk to each other when they are flying miles away on their dragons!? They don't have mics for sure. Maybe somekind of telepathy.

Funny thing is I'm having ZERO issues with the motion controls. Actually the fluidity of the controls exacerbate the abysmal frame rate. I like to pull the rains for the 180°. Now that I got it, it works 100% of the times. Lock on works fine. I think some reviewers complained about it, but I dont see what's wrong. It's your standard press-shoulder-button-to-lock-on procedure. Maybe it's not the lock on per se, but rather the difficulty in understanding whenever or not you actually have a target in sight to lock on onto. As I said, it's hard to understand what's going on in front of you due to the frame rate/low color palette thing.

Dunno what so say rather than I do really hope Factor 5 did some magic between this preview code and what they are gonna deliver to the market. BTW, this is the "new vegetation" version.

On the bright side, we got the leaderboards. You can compare other people stats with yours, ADD A FRIEND right from here (u just click on the nick on the LB to get that option) and bring up the friends list in order to send/receive messages. Music is awesome (albeit broken in that it skips between in game and cutscenes for some odd reasons).

DISCLAIMER
- All of this comes from a frame rate whore
- Had a go with the silcky smoothness of Warhawk before jumping into this. Might have "influenced" me.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm...well if they are saying good stuff about the motion control but complaining about framerate when EGM didn't mention the framerate but complained about the motion control makes me hope that they fixed the framerate and EGM are just complaining for the sake of complaining about the controls.
 
i hope the actual game is nothing like the preview disc... could it be that some of the rendering codes not present on the preview disc? If the motion control is good, hmmm, hard to believe the actual game is not.
 
If the game really is delayed until next month I would to know the reasoning behind it... Hopefully Sony posts something on the PlayStation Blog or something along those lines.
 
Gamestop now lists Lair as 9/4 release (same as Heavenly Sword - wonder which I'll get??) and my Gamefly queue lists it as 9/6. I think Sony might as well delay it until whatever control issues exist are ironed out - Madden and Warhawk will keep people busy for awhile anyway.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I'm actually hoping it gets delayed since Persona 3 was pushed to the 14th. That way I can have time to focus on that game.[/QUOTE]
If it does I may get Persona. I was originally going to get it before it got delayed, but once it did and they decided to have it come out the same day as LAIR...yeah. I'd go with LAIR without a doubt since I dont need both at the same time.


I don't want it to get delayed though :lol:
 
[quote name='gokou36']From what i've seen of this generation, EGM and 1up.com are totally bias, so is Gamespot. [/quote]

EGM and 1up more so than GameSpot. After 15+ years of being an EGM subscriber I canceled because I was tired of reading their biased reviews and opinions. That magazine has never been the same since Steve Harris & Ed Semrad left.

As for Lair, I don't mind waiting if it has been delayed. If the Devs need more time, then give it to them. I hate it when a game is rushed to the market and is left bugged and/or incomplete.
 
Mark me down for another person who doesn't mind a delay.

After thinking about it for a while, I think I will pass on Lair right now. I don't think I'll have the time for it.

Between my classes starting in 3 weeks as well as the release of Blue Dragon, I'll wait to pick it up.
 
Wow i am thinking this game will bomb bad, a lot of money lost for the publisher. Also i assume they already started production from the gold disc so they probably have to get rid of all those disks, plus the negative reviews will hurt it.
 
Hey, remember those comments from the guy with the preview disc I posted on previous page?

He finished the game and said he liked it in the end, even though he was so nitpicky about the framerate.

Looks like I'll still be picking it up if it can change a hardass like him.

Actually I liked Lair in the end.

Finished it couple of hours ago. I'd give it an IGN 8 or EDGE 7 if they fix the frame rate. A 5.5 if the dont. Last battles were LOTR x 10. Frame rate was 10 too tho :/
 
More of his thoughts, these are positive comments. I really like the commentary feature!

Just a quick heads up guys. Finished Lair. Here is my final score(s) based on this preview code and what might be the final one:

Preview build: 5.5
Hopefully framerate fixed final build: 7 (EDGE kind of seven)

Seriously, this game is fundamentally good. Once you get how air combat really works (more on this in a later post) it can be lots of fun and last battles are all kind of awesome. I mean "that ZOE2 massive battle" kind of awesome. But still, the framerate (+ other rough edges) TOTALLY kills the experience. It's not something you can live with it, accept it and try to forget it. It's there all the time killing your WOW factor.

One funny thing is the Commentary you can turn on in the extras. Just like commentaries in DVD movies, guys from the dev team talk about any given level while you are playing them! They explain what their purpose was with that level, which difficulties they encountered and stuff like that. It's a very cool feature.
Click to expand...
Also, this! Framerate issues a thing of the past.
The preview code is NOT the final version.

There's an interview with Julian on the Full Moon Show.

He talks about how there were bad frame rate issues in the preview code and they didn't get those issues worked out until after the preview code went out.

But, he says, this has since been resolved (after the preview code went out).

So, apparently, no more frame rate issues.
Click to expand...
 
I wonder if there will be any changes that might make that EMG score raise a little.

Either way I am with those who are saying that there are way to many great games dropping right near this new release date. To bad for them.
 
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