The Revelation You'll Have When You Grow Up

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']
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[quote name='usickenme']Shame? no sham. From whose ass did you pull this crap out of. You seem to be always ready to jump on someone for their inferences but it's okay for you. This is the essential problem I have. Folks like you, who , instead of listening to what liberals saying with an actual open mind, only listen to misconstrue what they hear.[/QUOTE]

After rereading the sterlization thread, I retract that since it wasn't said by you, alonzo or any of the others here who at least attempt to make sense. Thank you for calling me out and holding me to my own standards.

[quote name='usickenme']It is also telling that for all your verbage, you still come back to "if blacks made more money and were smarter, they would be Republicans". [/QUOTE]

What I actually said was that Blacks who actually join the ranks of the middle or upper class normally become republicans (or at least something other than democrats) because the liberal approach isn't working. (I will elaborate in my next post).

[quote name='usickenme']That is NOT the democratic response. In fact it is the opposite. We don't want people lives to be determined by the economic class they are born in. But we DO recognize the disadvantage it places on people. And we realize that the money spent to help is not only helping them, it is an investment in the society at large. That is why we are for things like Pell Grants and school lunches. Now I know that sometimes this lead to a few people having a sense of entitlement. But I don't care. It is small price to pay for the vast majority who turn that small bit of help into a good life. Myself included.

And if you think this is the democratic response, then wouldn't this be the response to nearly every charity out there???

I also want to address the sham of "personal responsibility". Why is it that "responsibility" is only ever placed on the ones who need help? To me, all it really does is allow some conservatives to feel good about doing nothing. I am all for responsibility but I recognize that I, as a person with some succes, also have a responsibility. And I ask the my Government and Businesses also have responsibility as well. When they don't take it, it is my "responsibilty" to ask questions.[/QUOTE]

Pell grants and school lunches? School lunches do help to save money, even if they taste like crap. Pell grants are only worthwhile once you make it to college. If you want to institute more things to ease the financial burden that the poor are under, that's fine. But why is it that you say that responsibility is only placed on the ones who need help? The truth is that those who have to deal with adversity need more than anything to know that they can gain control of their own lives. If they don't then they are the ones who end up complacent and 'feel good about doing nothing'.

Not to say that there's anything wrong with charities.They raise money that can be put to use. But the intentions of those who donate can be well-intentioned and still be harmful. This, to me, is true of many of the liberal-minded people that I've come in contact with. Giving the price of a cup of coffee to help someone is great. Taking pride in it isn't. The people who take these handouts feel the condescension inherent in such 'gifts'; and no matter how well-intentioned they may be, it still makes the person on the receiving end feel crappy. Hence the evolution and pejorative connotation associated with the phrase 'charity case'.
 
[quote name='camoor']Pure bull. Faith-based initiatives are now federally funded (thanks Bush admin) - this is tantamount to the government stepping in and propping up a religion that already gets heavy tax breaks. All of this is done in the name of promoting charity, so don't tell me that Republicans are the new modern-day Libertarians.

Besides, what about all the Republican talk of "we are helping the poor destitute people of Iraq because they are powerless to even start a rebellion for democracy and capitalism themselves". Nation-building is elitism in it's most transparent form.

I do agree with many of the criticisms of the Democratic party, but don't be so quick to absolve the Republicans of elitism.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that te republicans are fantastic. Isn't it popular opinion that the reason you've stated for the war in Iraq is bullshit? (I agree, btw) So it's not really an example of elitism if they're lying, although I agree it would be if it were true.
 
[quote name='atreyue']I'm not saying that te republicans are fantastic. Isn't it popular opinion that the reason you've stated for the war in Iraq is bullshit? (I agree, btw) So it's not really an example of elitism if they're lying, although I agree it would be if it were true.[/QUOTE]

It is elitism. We all know the war is for control of oil and to provide a honeypot for terrorists, but the Republican party-members who put Bush over the edge truly believe that they are a shining example of good christian folk doing the world another favor. I just hope they don't decide to do me any favors - I don't need anyone to overthrow my landlord, invade my apartment, and start dictating the rules of the house to me just because I posted something they disagree with on the internet.
 
[quote name='atreyue']

The people who take these handouts feel the condescension inherent in such 'gifts'; and no matter how well-intentioned they may be, it still makes the person on the receiving end feel crappy. Hence the evolution and pejorative connotation associated with the phrase 'charity case'.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I myself am the product of the 2 items I cited. School lunches and Pell Grants. I can't say I felt crappy about it. I was glad for the aid and in fact, made me more determined to put it to good use. You see, I happen to believe strongly in the concept of society. That society is willing to make an investment in me, I will pay it back and then some. Responsibility to the whole.

The thing is, gov't help does allow people to gain control over their own lives by removing the burden of some specific items. The fact that my mom didn't worry providing that meal eased her mind. Maybe enough to enable her to advance in her career and education. Many times the small stuff we all take for granted is prohibative in letting people take control over their own lives. The best help programs do both...provide actual help AND a sense of control

But I have seen the opposite end of the specturm you are talking about. When I work at a grocery store, I saw all kinds of abuse. However, in my experience they were far in the minority. And as I said, I'll take those percentages.
 
[quote name='usickenme']I disagree. I myself am the product of the 2 items I cited. School lunches and Pell Grants. I can't say I felt crappy about it. I was glad for the aid and in fact, made me more determined to put it to good use. You see, I happen to believe strongly in the concept of society. That society is willing to make an investment in me, I will pay it back and then some. Responsibility to the whole.

The thing is, gov't help does allow people to gain control over their own lives by removing the burden of some specific items. The fact that my mom didn't worry providing that meal eased her mind. Maybe enough to enable her to advance in her career and education. Many times the small stuff we all take for granted is prohibative in letting people take control over their own lives. The best help programs do both...provide actual help AND a sense of control

But I have seen the opposite end of the specturm you are talking about. When I work at a grocery store, I saw all kinds of abuse. However, in my experience they were far in the minority. And as I said, I'll take those percentages.[/QUOTE]

School lunches and Pell grants are not what I would call misguided charity. I believe that there is a huge difference between a scholarship and affirmative action which lies in the philosophies that govern each of these programs. If I gave you a scholarship or grant to my university, the message behind it is that you have earned a place there and I feel that your financial situation should not prevent you from taking advantage of the opportunity. If you received a spot at my school because of affirmative action, my motivations are obviously quite different. You're not here because you earned anything. I have lowered my standards for you because I have to fill a quota and ensure diversity. You still get your scholarship and you still get to attend this great school, but you can't truly feel good about yourself because you didn't do anything to deserve it. Some call this leveling the playing field, but it's not. Everyone else is there because they earned the right to be, financial status notwithstanding. It will definitely make you feel like shit. And I don't think this kind of policy is in the minority at all.
 
[quote name='atreyue']School lunches and Pell grants are not what I would call misguided charity. I believe that there is a huge difference between a scholarship and affirmative action which lies in the philosophies that govern each of these programs. If I gave you a scholarship or grant to my university, the message behind it is that you have earned a place there and I feel that your financial situation should not prevent you from taking advantage of the opportunity. If you received a spot at my school because of affirmative action, my motivations are obviously quite different. You're not here because you earned anything. I have lowered my standards for you because I have to fill a quota and ensure diversity. You still get your scholarship and you still get to attend this great school, but you can't truly feel good about yourself because you didn't do anything to deserve it. Some call this leveling the playing field, but it's not. Everyone else is there because they earned the right to be, financial status notwithstanding. It will definitely make you feel like shit. And I don't think this kind of policy is in the minority at all.[/QUOTE]

From my experiences in college I must agree, diversity seems to be more about getting people in here to fulfill quotas and them dumping them out with some wothless degree right when their government funding dries up.

Also I wouldn't call free school lunch programs entirely charity. A lot of the food items were purchased by the government to subsidize farming. In short even when you pay for lunch it is already being served for less than it costs to produce.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']The system I advocate attempts to level the playing field, as much as possible, so people will rise and fall based on their own effort, while trying to minimize the harmful effects of racism, poverty etc. The system advocated by many conservatives fails to admit that living in crime/drug infested neighborhoods, in areas with a poor and overcrowded education system, no day care to watch kids, and in poverty will, or even can, effect the decisions a person makes, their oppurtunities, and the life they will life. A person living in a ghetto in chicago has to put in a lot more effort and have a lot more luck just to get what was handed to me.[/QUOTE]

Read my above post to see my answer to this.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']I was referring to the overal paragraph. The cosby one wasn't so much out of context in itself (though it does come across a little different than intended), but jacksons response was. "Jesse Jackson countered that the time was not yet right to "level the playing field." Why not? Because "drunk people can't do that ... illiterate people can't do that", means something needs to be done about the problems in the community, many due to the lingering effects of the history of africans in this country and the prejudice that exists to this day, and the results of all that. Cosby just referred to cosmetic changes, jackson says where not at that point yet.

Well, that's true, but most of my friends are minorities, and I do know people who are poor, living in trailer parks or on welfare (most of my family is poor), so it's not like I have no connection whatsoever to people like that.[/QUOTE]

What are all these lingering effects that need to be dealt with? What Cosby was saying was that it's neccessary for Black people to stress the importance of an education to our children so that they can use the tools available (however limited they may be) to make the best of themselves. Jackson was uncomfortable with the idea that the responsibility for the state of the black community rests to some degree at least in the hands of the community itself. So he tried to point to problems real and imagined as if they could absolve people of their responsibilities to their children. Doesn't it seem ridiculous for him to say that we're not at the point where we can educate our children? I think that you got what he was trying to convey, but missed what he was trying to cover up.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']The ones in power are the ones who can do something, and people born with more wealth and better economic status wield more power in this country, to get things done in this country you usually need the support of those people, or at least force them to do something.[/QUOTE]

As I said in my last post, it all depends on how those who are in a position to help do so. You posted this in the sterilization thread:
Maybe if we actually improved treatment for drug addicts (we often refuse to treat those who actually want help), that may help with the drug problem. Maybe if we worked on improving schools, and after school programs, that may help with the drug problem. Maybe if we provided services so that single parents didn't have to leave their kids alone all day, that may help with the drug problem.
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These are beneficial ways to improve the quality of life for the poor and dramatically increase their chances of leading successful lives, no matter what their economic status turns out to be. These methods are very proactive ways of levelling the playing field, as is removing financial concerns using scholarships or other similar devices. None of these solutions make excuses for people. None of them cause people to doubt their own worth.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Though the liberal goal is to, the best of societies ability, to level the playing field. To make it easier for people born into disadvantaged background to have the same advantages that people born into middle and upper classes have. It is not to keep them that way, or to suggest that no matter where you're born, the situation or environment that you're born into, or any other factor should play no role in the ultimate outcome of your life, which is what is suggested by economic liberalism.[/QUOTE]

As I said in my last post, there's a huge difference between an Ivy League School saying:
We accept anyone from any financial background (and do the best we can to minimalize the impact of financial concerns), as long as that person meets the rigorous academic and extracurricular requirements of our school.

We accept anyone from any financial background (and do the best we can to minimalize the impact of financial concerns), as long as that person is not a minority and meets the rigorous academic and extracurricular requirements of our school. Minorities will get preferential treatment, at least until we meet our quota.
 
[quote name='atreyue']...... If you received a spot at my school because of affirmative action, my motivations are obviously quite different. You're not here because you earned anything. I have lowered my standards for you because I have to fill a quota and ensure diversity. You still get your scholarship and you still get to attend this great school, but you can't truly feel good about yourself because you didn't do anything to deserve it......[/QUOTE]

That's is only one way to look at it.

But, it is not all about what one does to deserve it. In fact, placement is schools is also largely based on "what can you do for the school" or " what do you offer the school". Can you make the school better in football? Can you improve the music program? Scholarships work this way. Most schools also place a value on diversity.

That how it works in the real world as well.
 
[quote name='usickenme']That's is only one way to look at it.

But, it is not all about what one does to deserve it. In fact, placement is schools is also largely based on "what can you do for the school" or " what do you offer the school". Can you make the school better in football? Can you improve the music program? Scholarships work this way. Most schools also place a value on diversity.

That how it works in the real world as well.[/QUOTE]

Placement based on music or sports is merit-based, just as academic placement is. There is no merit in race or ethnicity. "Can you, as a black person, offer the school anything? Can you do anything for the school? No. And if you really care about diversity, there's no reason why you can't find someone who fits the racial bill AND still meets your merit requirements.
 
[quote name='atreyue']


As I said in my last post, there's a huge difference between an Ivy League School saying:
We accept anyone from any financial background (and do the best we can to minimalize the impact of financial concerns), as long as that person meets the rigorous academic and extracurricular requirements of our school.

We accept anyone from any financial background (and do the best we can to minimalize the impact of financial concerns), as long as that person is not a minority and meets the rigorous academic and extracurricular requirements of our school. Minorities will get preferential treatment, at least until we meet our quota.[/QUOTE]

The amount of preferential treatment varies, and I the cases you mention are overly emphasized. The purpose is to protect against discrimination of minorities, something which in the past was clearly necessary and, to this day, is necessary in some schools.

But, I never advocated affirmative action in its current state, I advocate it to essentially shift its goals to all poor underpriveleged people, maybe with an emphasis on minorities, but useable by everyone, and that is advocated by many other liberals as well. If there is a choice between the ceasing of all forms of affirmative action or to continue in its current state, then there's no question that I'd choose to let it continue. But, I advocate changing it so that it is useable by the poor, not just poor minorities.

Though, there's a college in vermont with about 1400 people, lyndon state college. According to profiles I've seen (recently and in the past), about 2% is non white, that being made up of hispanics. That is a school that needs diversity, and that in and of itself would improve the education experience of students in exposing them to working with different types of people.
 
[quote name='atreyue']Placement based on music or sports is merit-based, just as academic placement is. There is no merit in race or ethnicity. .[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Additionally, who knows the potential impact of someone who was "let in". For example, if you are discussing racism in a class, it would probably be informative to have someone in class who is actually a victim of it.

Besides who says they aren't finding someone who fits the racial bill AND still meets the merit requirements?
 
[quote name='atreyue']Placement based on music or sports is merit-based, just as academic placement is. There is no merit in race or ethnicity. "Can you, as a black person, offer the school anything? Can you do anything for the school? No. And if you really care about diversity, there's no reason why you can't find someone who fits the racial bill AND still meets your merit requirements.[/QUOTE]

I agree. There should be an effort to get top talent that happens to be poor into the schools, but who cares if the kid is black, white, yellow, or purple.
 
[quote name='usickenme']I disagree. Additionally, who knows the potential impact of someone who was "let in". For example, if you are discussing racism in a class, it would probably be informative to have someone in class who is actually a victim of it.

Besides who says they aren't finding someone who fits the racial bill AND still meets the merit requirements?[/QUOTE]

I can go though my entire college and may not have to take a class involving racism so that's a moot point. Also that's part of the problem, a good number of the systems don't care about a person's background and are simple point systems. So, you can basically get added "bonus points" for being a minority, therefore most are not designed to "fit the racial bill and the merit requirements".
 
[quote name='camoor']I agree. There should be an effort to get top talent that happens to be poor into the schools, but who cares if the kid is black, white, yellow, or purple.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if the kids skin is yellow or purple I would call the cops on their parents, for malnutrition and/or beatings.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Actually, if the kids skin is yellow or purple I would call the cops on their parents, for malnutrition and/or beatings.[/QUOTE]

When's the last time you actually saw a white or black person? Asians would fit as yellow.

Actually, I did see a white person on campus once, a blind asian albino. She was actually kinda hot, which I thought was odd since people with physical problems usually aren't, then again I never saw an albino before.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']When's the last time you actually saw a white or black person? Asians would fit as yellow.

Actually, I did see a white person on campus once, a blind asian albino. She was actually kinda hot, which I thought was odd since people with physical problems usually aren't, then again I never saw an albino before.[/QUOTE]

S'OK, we all know you have a unique taste in women ;)
 
[quote name='camoor']S'OK, we all know you have a unique taste in women ;)[/QUOTE]

Well she was, she looked 100% normal other than extremely pale skin (made more noticeable by the umbrella she had on a normal winter day), and the person that was guiding her around. If you just darkened her skin (and gave her sight) she would have been just like any hot girl at a bar.
 
[quote name='usickenme']I disagree. Additionally, who knows the potential impact of someone who was "let in". For example, if you are discussing racism in a class, it would probably be informative to have someone in class who is actually a victim of it.

Besides who says they aren't finding someone who fits the racial bill AND still meets the merit requirements?[/QUOTE]

Just because you're black doesn't mean that you have really been a victim of racism (outside of the actual affirmative action you suffered to get into the school, that is). Who knows if they aren't finding people who fit the racial and merit requirements? With a program like affirmative action, no one does. That's the problem. Your level playing field can't possibly be there if people are being judged on a different basis.
 
[quote name='atreyue']Just because you're black doesn't mean that you have really been a victim of racism (outside of the actual affirmative action you suffered to get into the school, that is). Who knows if they aren't finding people who fit the racial and merit requirements? With a program like affirmative action, no one does. That's the problem. Your level playing field can't possibly be there if people are being judged on a different basis.[/QUOTE]

I think the faulty assumption you made here is that they are only there due to affirmative action. Though I'm not sure the level of racism you're talking about, but you'd be hard pressed to find any visible minority who hasn't been the victim of racism (especially blacks or anyone who looks muslim).
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']The amount of preferential treatment varies, and I the cases you mention are overly emphasized. The purpose is to protect against discrimination of minorities, something which in the past was clearly necessary and, to this day, is necessary in some schools.

But, I never advocated affirmative action in its current state, I advocate it to essentially shift its goals to all poor underpriveleged people, maybe with an emphasis on minorities, but useable by everyone, and that is advocated by many other liberals as well. If there is a choice between the ceasing of all forms of affirmative action or to continue in its current state, then there's no question that I'd choose to let it continue. But, I advocate changing it so that it is useable by the poor, not just poor minorities.[/QUOTE]

Most colleges adopted a wonderful policy that already benefits the poor long ago. It's called "need-blind admissions". It means that they do not allow economic background or standing to play any part in whether or not you are accepted to the school. Financial aid is determined after your acceptance, without examining race. If you're lucky, the package they award you is enough for you to attend their school if you choose. Most jobs neither require you to submit nor do they obtain your financial records, so they don't discriminate against the poor either. So there would need to be proven recent cases of racial or ethnic discrimination for affirmative action to actually be doing what it was intended to do. Without that, it's just an outdated and unfair system. I say we get rid of it and instead focus on creating more means of financial aid for those who need it and work on improving the education systems of the underpriviledged.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Though, there's a college in vermont with about 1400 people, lyndon state college. According to profiles I've seen (recently and in the past), about 2% is non white, that being made up of hispanics. That is a school that needs diversity, and that in and of itself would improve the education experience of students in exposing them to working with different types of people.[/QUOTE]

I'm certain there are many small schools in Vermont that have trouble attracting diversity. Kidnapping people off the streets is always an option. :lol: Personally, I'm against 'historically' black colleges.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']I think the faulty assumption you made here is that they are only there due to affirmative action. Though I'm not sure the level of racism you're talking about, but you'd be hard pressed to find any visible minority who hasn't been the victim of racism (especially blacks or anyone who looks muslim).[/QUOTE]

When you say 'visible' do you mean any person who's visibly a minority? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on this planet who hasn't been a victim of stereotyping. As far as real racism goes, I think your claim is more than a little extreme.

I never assumed they are only there due to affirmative action. I said that no one knows whether or not they are there because of affirmative action. Because affirmative action exists, they never know whether they are really qualified for whatever school they are accepted at (or job they are hired for), or if they got it based on something as trivial as their racial background.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']When's the last time you actually saw a white or black person? Asians would fit as yellow.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have seen people white as bleached white cloth, and people black as charcoal.
 
[quote name='atreyue']When you say 'visible' do you mean any person who's visibly a minority? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on this planet who hasn't been a victim of stereotyping. As far as real racism goes, I think your claim is more than a little extreme.

I never assumed they are only there due to affirmative action. I said that no one knows whether or not they are there because of affirmative action. Because affirmative action exists, they never know whether they are really qualified for whatever school they are accepted at (or job they are hired for), or if they got it based on something as trivial as their racial background.[/QUOTE]

Yes, visible minority means anyone who is clearly a minority (ie. chinese, indian (india), iranian, african etc.)I said it kinda depends on your definition of real racism. Being called the n word (it's gonna censor it if I spell it), terrorist, osama, etc. are all racism and have varying degrees of effects depending on the person and situation (especially when a guy you work, or go to school with, keeps calling you those thing when he sees you).
 
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