The Syrian Rebellion

ID2006

CAGiversary!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19025955

Tens of thousands of people have fled Syria over the past few months. Jordan, to the south, is preparing to open its first official camp to house some of the 140,000 Syrians who its say have crossed its border...

...The UN said in May that at least 10,000 people had been killed.

In June, the Syrian government, which blames the violence on foreign-backed "armed terrorist gangs", reported that 6,947 Syrians had died, including at least 3,211 civilians and 2,566 security forces personnel.


Not sure if anyone is keeping an eye on this. The international treatment it has received seems so different from Egypt and Libya. I guess Russia and China are preventing any sort of UN intervention, like sanctions. Does anyone have an idea of China's reasoning?

I've heard and read about likely reasons for Russia, which are:
- Paranoia (because nuclear weapons) of setting a precedent that undermines the similar Russian government and its ability to treat the citizens in a likewise fashion at some point.
- Possibly economic, since Russia sells weapons to Syria.

The actual excuse that Russian representatives have given is that supporting the Rebels will lead to more death and massacre.

Any thoughts?
 
This is a pretty effed up situation, and it is depressing that the media isn't paying attention to this as much as they did Iraq eight years ago. Syria's a pretty developed enough country and then this raged on for about a year with nobody doing anything about it?
The answer could be oil as well, but it may as well be arms dealing as a reason for opposition.
 
About Russia and China, I suspect it's that, if this were to happen in either of those places, they'd react in a similar fashion, blaming outside forces included. Denouncing a regime for something they'd likely do themselves seems hypocritical.
 
China's reasoning: They're buddies with Russia. That's really all there is to it. They'll go along with Russia and Russia will go along with them.
 
[quote name='Clak']About Russia and China, I suspect it's that, if this were to happen in either of those places, they'd react in a similar fashion, blaming outside forces included. Denouncing a regime for something they'd likely do themselves seems hypocritical.[/QUOTE]

Two things

1) It's probably true, the CIA probably is backing Syrian liberation forces
2) Before us (and every other superpower ever) Russia got fucking schooled in Afghanistan, and at that time USA had a primary role (see: Charlie Wilson's War, Rambo III ;) ) Russia is in the hands of a totalitarian, it's no skin off his nose to back a regime that is killing of tens of thousands if it means the possibility of scoring some cheap oil. As for China, it's goddamn China 'nuff said.
 
Oh I know, and it's completely possible we're supporting the rebels in a clandestine way. But like you said, Russia is in the hands of a totalitarian, I can easily see the Russian government reacting in a similar way to that of Syria's if a rebellion took place there, China even more so. Hell, the Chinese government hauls people off for the smallest descent, a full scale rebellion would be like Syria times...a really large number.
 
One reason I've heard thrown around in regards to why we haven't gotten involved was the desire to not escalate the situation, that supposedly this rebellion did not become this violent until recently. So if we'd gotten involved sooner, things would have escalated faster. Don't know how much of that I buy, but it's irrelevant now anyway as the fighting has gotten quite violent.
 
[quote name='detectiveconan16']This is a pretty effed up situation, and it is depressing that the media isn't paying attention to this as much as they did Iraq eight years ago. Syria's a pretty developed enough country and then this raged on for about a year with nobody doing anything about it?
The answer could be oil as well, but it may as well be arms dealing as a reason for opposition.[/QUOTE]

You'll forgive me if I'm glad the media isn't hyping an invasion of Syria like it was for Iraq.
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']You'll forgive me if I'm glad the media isn't hyping an invasion of Syria like it was for Iraq.[/QUOTE]


^ This. You're out of your mind if you think the majority of American voters want to see the U.S. get involved in this.
 
It's one of the biggest attrocities in the world right now. It's the new Bosnia. The Libya model (we stand back and diplomatically say nasty things about the current dictators but don't do a damn thing) can have it's positives, but on the flip side, if the US were to get too politically outspoken about it at the UN level, pretty much the rest of the world can say, "Orly? And how many times have you been the lone veto on countless measures impacting Israel?".

It's unbelievably sad. Say what you want when two militaries fight and limited civilian casualties occur, but when that many children and innocents are killed, breaks your heart. Assad deserves to be caught and drug down the street a la Gadaffi.
 
Most of the experts I've heard interviewed seem to agree that it's all coming to a head, that when a government is going as far as Syria's has, it's close to collapse. How much longer Assad will hold out is anyone's guess, but he knows it's only a matter of time.
 
Robert Fisk is one of the most respected (in the rest of the world outside of the US that is) and knowledgeable reporters on the Middle East.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-syrian-war-of-lies-and-hypocrisy-7985012.html


Robert Fisk: Syrian war of lies and hypocrisy

The West's real target here is not Assad's brutal regime but his ally, Iran, and its chemical weapons

Robert Fisk
Sunday, 29 July 2012

Has there ever been a Middle Eastern war of such hypocrisy? A war of such cowardice and such mean morality, of such false rhetoric and such public humiliation? I'm not talking about the physical victims of the Syrian tragedy. I'm referring to the utter lies and mendacity of our masters and our own public opinion – eastern as well as western – in response to the slaughter, a vicious pantomime more worthy of Swiftian satire than Tolstoy or Shakespeare.

While Qatar and Saudi Arabia arm and fund the rebels of Syria to overthrow Bashar al-Assad's Alawite/Shia-Baathist dictatorship, Washington mutters not a word of criticism against them. President Barack Obama and his Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, say they want a democracy in Syria. But Qatar is an autocracy and Saudi Arabia is among the most pernicious of caliphate-kingly-dictatorships in the Arab world. Rulers of both states inherit power from their families – just as Bashar has done – and Saudi Arabia is an ally of the Salafist-Wahabi rebels in Syria, just as it was the most fervent supporter of the medieval Taliban during Afghanistan's dark ages.

Indeed, 15 of the 19 hijacker-mass murderers of 11 September, 2001, came from Saudi Arabia – after which, of course, we bombed Afghanistan. The Saudis are repressing their own Shia minority just as they now wish to destroy the Alawite-Shia minority of Syria. And we believe Saudi Arabia wants to set up a democracy in Syria?

Then we have the Shia Hezbollah party/militia in Lebanon, right hand of Shia Iran and supporter of Bashar al-Assad's regime. For 30 years, Hezbollah has defended the oppressed Shias of southern Lebanon against Israeli aggression. They have presented themselves as the defenders of Palestinian rights in the West Bank and Gaza. But faced with the slow collapse of their ruthless ally in Syria, they have lost their tongue. Not a word have they uttered – nor their princely Sayed Hassan Nasrallah – about the rape and mass murder of Syrian civilians by Bashar's soldiers and "Shabiha" militia.

Then we have the heroes of America – La Clinton, the Defence Secretary Leon Panetta, and Obama himself. Clinton issues a "stern warning" to Assad. Panetta – the same man who repeated to the last US forces in Iraq that old lie about Saddam's connection to 9/11 – announces that things are "spiralling out of control" in Syria. They have been doing that for at least six months. Has he just realised? And then Obama told us last week that "given the regime's stockpile of chemical weapons, we will continue to make it clear to Assad … that the world is watching". Now, was it not a County Cork newspaper called the Skibbereen Eagle, fearful of Russia's designs on China, which declared that it was "keeping an eye … on the Tsar of Russia"? Now it is Obama's turn to emphasise how little clout he has in the mighty conflicts of the world. How Bashar must be shaking in his boots.

But what US administration would really want to see Bashar's atrocious archives of torture opened to our gaze? Why, only a few years ago, the Bush administration was sending Muslims to Damascus for Bashar's torturers to tear their fingernails out for information, imprisoned at the US government's request in the very hell-hole which Syrian rebels blew to bits last week. Western embassies dutifully supplied the prisoners' tormentors with questions for the victims. Bashar, you see, was our baby.

Then there's that neighbouring country which owes us so much gratitude: Iraq. Last week, it suffered in one day 29 bombing attacks in 19 cities, killing 111 civilian and wounding another 235. The same day, Syria's bloodbath consumed about the same number of innocents. But Iraq was "down the page" from Syria, buried "below the fold", as we journalists say; because, of course, we gave freedom to Iraq, Jeffersonian democracy, etc, etc, didn't we? So this slaughter to the east of Syria didn't have quite the same impact, did it? Nothing we did in 2003 led to Iraq's suffering today. Right?

And talking of journalism, who in BBC World News decided that even the preparations for the Olympics should take precedence all last week over Syrian outrages? British newspapers and the BBC in Britain will naturally lead with the Olympics as a local story. But in a lamentable decision, the BBC – broadcasting "world" news to the world – also decided that the passage of the Olympic flame was more important than dying Syrian children, even when it has its own courageous reporter sending his despatches directly from Aleppo.

Then, of course, there's us, our dear liberal selves who are so quick to fill the streets of London in protest at the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians. Rightly so, of course. When our political leaders are happy to condemn Arabs for their savagery but too timid to utter a word of the mildest criticism when the Israeli army commits crimes against humanity – or watches its allies do it in Lebanon – ordinary people have to remind the world that they are not as timid as the politicians. But when the scorecard of death in Syria reaches 15,000 or 19,000 – perhaps 14 times as many fatalities as in Israel's savage 2008-2009 onslaught on Gaza – scarcely a single protester, save for Syrian expatriates abroad, walks the streets to condemn these crimes against humanity. Israel's crimes have not been on this scale since 1948. Rightly or wrongly, the message that goes out is simple: we demand justice and the right to life for Arabs if they are butchered by the West and its Israeli allies; but not when they are being butchered by their fellow Arabs.

And all the while, we forget the "big" truth. That this is an attempt to crush the Syrian dictatorship not because of our love for Syrians or our hatred of our former friend Bashar al-Assad, or because of our outrage at Russia, whose place in the pantheon of hypocrites is clear when we watch its reaction to all the little Stalingrads across Syria. No, this is all about Iran and our desire to crush the Islamic Republic and its infernal nuclear plans – if they exist – and has nothing to do with human rights or the right to life or the death of Syrian babies. Quelle horreur!
 
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