Thread Where Dohdough And I Hash It Out

N

nasum

CAGiversary!
Pop some corn and pull up a lawn chair boys, this could be hilarious...

I've stated before that I'm confused by your world view, mainly because it seems to me that you contradict yourself at times. You may think not, but it appears that way which means you have some work to do.

Hell, I know you and I will probably find very little common ground, mainly a language barrier since it seems we agree on a few things (or as you put it overlap) but at the very least some compromise is needed least we overtake the sub forum with little more than bickering at each other more than we already have.

We have different views on racism which is obvious. I think it's overt actions taken against another person. You agree with that but also state that's it's a systemic operation. I'll go along with that, however I don't think it's as intense as you portray it to be. For instance, I disagree that a person can't get a loan because they're black, I believe it's because they are a credit risk. You then assert that they're a credit risk because historically the family hasn't had a chance to establish wealth. Well, establishing a family helps...
Site as much as thou whilst, there is a responsibility factor involved here. Even Dmaul agrees on that front.

I'm not interested in attacking you as a person because it's very obvious that you're a smart fellow and I respect that in you. Honestly, I think that respect is mutual, if not begrugdgingly, otherwise you wouldn't pay attention.

While it's fairly obvious that I'm not a lunatic righty, I think you're painting me that way for sake of ease in your position. Please stop. It isn't helping anything. I'm obviously pro-tax, pro-choice, pro-social security (how they managed to successfully frame it as an "entitlement" is beyond me), pro-welfare (though anti-welfare fraud), and pro-gun control as well as many other typical liberal positions. But I also think that the human race needs to be responsible with our position atop the proverbial food chain. We need to conserve our resources in such a way that is "real" conservatism as opposed to pushing non viable technology as the only resource left. With a lot of BS arguing, we'd probably have to admit that's a good idea.

In the end, I promise not to be a dick if you promise the same. I'll be the first to admit that I'm guilty of intentionally being a dick just for the fun of it. Though we both know when we're doing that.

I really am curious as to what your world view is as I think it would help in further discussion. It doesn't even need to get into some McLaughlin point counterpoint nonsense. I just really want to know what you think would make things work. I'd bet a game that if you put out 10 things that you think need to happen, we'd agree on at least 6.

In the meantime, I'm going to go fuck some people up in Bad Company 2 because that's how I roll. Even though I'm a medic...
 
Read this: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html and http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

Get yourself a copy of this: http://www.amazon.com/Racism-without-Racists-Color-Blind-Persistence/dp/0742516334 and http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0743296281

I don't really have any interest in teaching you about racism beyond the effort I've already put out. The above books are good resources if you want to learn more about it. If you don't want to read, then watch some Tim Wise talks on youtube...I'm quite serious. He's good for beginners and intermediates. If you want a more "authentic" source, watch videos by Michael Eric Dyson(http://fora.tv/2008/10/01/Michael_Eric_Dyson_No_Dreams_Deferred#fullprogram is a good one).

Rather than make it about you(or us), you could've just started a thread or bumped up any number of threads that involved racism. To be honest, it's a little egotistical to devote a thread to this. We're really not that important.

If you want to point out my inconsistencies, I'd actually appreciate it if you did so in the threads.

edit: Lemme put it this way, CAG isn't the ideal place to practice activism. Can we have meaningful dialogue? Sure...but it would be long, protracted, and time would be better spent reading the material while familiarizing yourself with the concepts instead of discussing issues without any frame of reference. If you're looking for a safe space to discuss race, this isn't it because there are no mods that really regulate this sub-forum.

If you have questions about the readings, I'll try to answer them, but they are very accessible and easy to understand. They're not bogged down with a lot of academic jargon.
 
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Dodough is a smart guy, but as nasum points out - it's hard to have a discussion with someone that isn't just on a different page, but in a different book, on certain subjects.

For me, it's hard to have an immigration discussion with someone that seems to think the words "illegal immigration" are an oxy-moron, and until I have an "epiphany" to convince me it's an oxy-moron, he mostly takes the path of condescension.
 
no, it isn't "the big racism thread" which leaks into everything else.
I'm really curious about your world view. What is it that would make the world right in your mind? What are steps to get there? What functions do govts serve? What is the ideal economy? So on and so forth. If you're not interested then fine, the thread dies.
 
[quote name='nasum']no, it isn't "the big racism thread" which leaks into everything else.
I'm really curious about your world view. What is it that would make the world right in your mind? What are steps to get there? What functions do govts serve? What is the ideal economy? So on and so forth. If you're not interested then fine, the thread dies.[/QUOTE]

I have tried asking him this type of stuff before...dude just tends to take pot shots at other peoples views without ever committing himself to any real policy himself. Its almost like he is a politician himself ;)
 
[quote name='nasum']no, it isn't "the big racism thread" which leaks into everything else.
I'm really curious about your world view. What is it that would make the world right in your mind? What are steps to get there? What functions do govts serve? What is the ideal economy? So on and so forth. If you're not interested then fine, the thread dies.[/QUOTE]

Am I the only one who finds this thread creepy?
 
[quote name='nasum']no, it isn't "the big racism thread" which leaks into everything else.
I'm really curious about your world view. What is it that would make the world right in your mind? What are steps to get there? What functions do govts serve? What is the ideal economy? So on and so forth. If you're not interested then fine, the thread dies.[/QUOTE]
I've already outlined all those things in various threads over the last year. This thread is redundant and an exercise in futility. The only reason why I responded in the first place is because there are lurkers that might be interested on race, so I listed a few readings and offered to answer questions.

Why I think the way I think is a more relevant question and those suggested readings is a way of answering that, like I've already said.

[quote name='MSI Magus']I have tried asking him this type of stuff before...dude just tends to take pot shots at other peoples views without ever committing himself to any real policy himself. Its almost like he is a politician himself ;)[/QUOTE]
Just because you don't pay attention to the ideas that I do put out doesn't mean they don't exist.

[quote name='camoor']Am I the only one who finds this thread creepy?[/QUOTE]
Nope.
 
[quote name='camoor']Am I the only one who finds this thread creepy?[/QUOTE]

Kind of. But if it keeps so many threads from becoming back and forths between these two over the same type of things over and over, I'm all for it! ;)
 
Thrust are you saying that dohdough doesn't recognize illegal immigrants as being illegal immigrants, that he calls them something as bunk as "Undocumented Workers"?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Kind of. But if it keeps so many threads from becoming back and forths between these two over the same type of things over and over, I'm all for it! ;)[/QUOTE]

My 2¢ - Dohdough should let it die. He's seems like a decent guy and this thread can go nowhere good.

Seacrest out.
 
I can understand the frustration of dohdough at the futility of this and most other threads. The links he posted are solid but unheard of by the mainstream US public. They are much better known outside the USA which make up 95% of the world's population. It's really challenging having a "debate" while people are unread and uninformed of this position simply because there is a blackout when it comes to information such as this. In the USA, the only places you will find these ideas are universities where some professors will bother to put in the time to read these alternative (within the US) views.

So, I challenge those unfamiliar to take a chance and read these arguments. Racism is much more complex than the overt manifestations of it.
 
I was going to not post in this thread but I have to add a few things.

dd can sound like he uses a big brush when it comes to labeling people/institutions racist (MSI once accused me of "using" an accusation of racism to discredit someones argument, the fact is no argument was made in the first place, so take his posts about dd with a grain of salt).

I find this perfectly understandable since you know, very few people come out and admit they are racist.

There is a lot of code words, dog whistles and guarded language out there and it is deeply entrenched.

Basically the entire libertarian/right wing system of "thought" (especially economics) only makes sense if you view it as thin justification for sticking it to the mud people.

The usual suspects won't like hearing the plain truth and I anticipate a page of whinging but then again most of them believe no one is racist except those who wear klan garb and sign affidavits stating they are racist.
 
[quote name='tivo']Lemme recommend Thomas Sowell...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...5/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-2457380-7259053


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-8501622-9745631?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

And a collection of his recent articles here


You cannot argue with this guy as he provides all the numbers and stats in his books.[/QUOTE]
Thomas Sowell is not a reputable academic and his theories are weak, if not dishonest. He acknowledges historical racism and stops there. The only thing I trust Sowell on being comewhat factual about would be n intro economics course...as long as it was devoid of any Austrian School cheerleading.

Just because he provides statistics doesn't mean that he's knowledgable enough to interpret them correctly or that he researches them with vigor.
 
[quote name='Msut77']There is a lot of code words, dog whistles and guarded language out there and it is deeply entrenched.

Basically the entire libertarian/right wing system of "thought" (especially economics) only makes sense if you view it as thin justification for sticking it to the mud people.
[/QUOTE]

Damn straight! The modern person with racist/bigoted views hides it behind the convenient economic veneer of libertarianism. Libertarians claim to protect property rights... of those now in possession of that property. But not of those in the past, such as the "third" world (another racist code word). So, who is to decide when to stop stealing and when it stops being ok? Oh, the glorious Europeans and Americans! WHY is it that we cannot go steal and then declare that stealing is wrong tomorrow and our claims legitimate? That is a great example of the racist pathologies that exist right under our noses. Why do Western corps have rights to illegally and immorally obtained land and resources?

[quote name='Msut77']
The usual suspects won't like hearing the plain truth and I anticipate a page of whinging but then again most of them believe no one is racist except those who wear klan garb and sign affidavits stating they are racist.[/QUOTE]

I love it! Signed affidavits are what they will want next to identify racists.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Just because he provides statistics doesn't mean that he's knowledgable enough to interpret them correctly or that he researches them with vigor.[/QUOTE]

This is a typical left wing move: dismiss everything said and attack the intelligence.

Hey, just because he got a bachelor's degree from HARVARD a master's degree from COLUMBIA and a doctorate from CHICAGO and he has been teaching, writing and analyzing his fields of Economics, Education, Politics, History, Race relations and Child development ever since (40+ years) doesn't mean he's knowledgeable enough! Ha! He has a more impressive resume than any one of your callow philodoxes.

Sorry to tell you this dd, but you are not as smart as you think you are and just as ignorant and closed minded as the people you decry.
 
[quote name='tivo']This is a typical left wing move: dismiss everything said and attack the intelligence.[/QUOTE]
Where did I attack his intelligence? Nowhere. In matter of fact, I even stated that I would trust him to teach economics because that's his specialty. But Thomas Sowell is no Noam Chomsky.

I also didn't dismiss anything and just said that he lacks the academic chops to discuss anything regarding race. His theories on race have been long debunked. If I was dismissive, I would've just said that his degrees weren't earned because he was a product of affirmative action. Funny how that works eh?

Hey, just because he got a bachelor's degree from HARVARD a master's degree from COLUMBIA and a doctorate from CHICAGO and he has been teaching, writing and analyzing his fields of Economics, Education, Politics, History, Race relations and Child development ever since (40+ years) doesn't mean he's knowledgeable enough! Ha!
Click to expand...
When someone talks about the socio-economic mobility of Asians(or non-US black people) and fail to take into account selection bias on one hand, while promoting The Bell Curve on the other, they're not going to be taken seriously on anything regarding racial issues or in an academic setting. There's a reason why he's been working at a think tank for over 30 years.

He has a more impressive resume than any one of your callow philodoxes.
Click to expand...
While he went to top institutions, he only demonstrates a superficial understanding of social phenomena and unable, or unwilling, to delve deeper than saying black people in the US are solely responsible for their condition as a racial group. His celebrity, some would say novelty, is what gives him a platform, and not because he's an academic on the front lines of research.

Sorry to tell you this dd, but you are not as smart as you think you are and just as ignorant and closed minded as the people you decry.
Click to expand...
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edit: If you want to talk about the rigor of Sowell's theories, then you should start a new thread. This one needs to be gassed. You topping it with nonsense published by someone that works for a think tank is less than honest.
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[quote name='tivo']This is a typical left wing move: dismiss everything said and attack the intelligence.

Hey, just because he got a bachelor's degree from HARVARD a master's degree from COLUMBIA and a doctorate from CHICAGO and he has been teaching, writing and analyzing his fields of Economics, Education, Politics, History, Race relations and Child development ever since (40+ years) doesn't mean he's knowledgeable enough! Ha! He has a more impressive resume than any one of your callow philodoxes.

Sorry to tell you this dd, but you are not as smart as you think you are and just as ignorant and closed minded as the people you decry.[/QUOTE]

Haha I'd never thought I'd see a post from you that praised the intellegentsia.
 
[quote name='tivo']This is a typical left wing move: dismiss everything said and attack the intelligence.

Hey, just because he got a bachelor's degree from HARVARD a master's degree from COLUMBIA and a doctorate from CHICAGO and he has been teaching, writing and analyzing his fields of Economics, Education, Politics, History, Race relations and Child development ever since (40+ years) doesn't mean he's knowledgeable enough! Ha! He has a more impressive resume than any one of your callow philodoxes.

Sorry to tell you this dd, but you are not as smart as you think you are and just as ignorant and closed minded as the people you decry.[/QUOTE]

Gosh I guess a background in academia is only something to brag about if you're a conservative. If you're a liberal it's elitist garbage and you get decried as an ivory tower progressive.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Gosh I guess a background in academia is only something to brag about if you're a conservative. If you're a liberal it's elitist garbage and you get decried as an ivory tower progressive.[/QUOTE]

If you are a right wing lunatic who gets paid to write "economics" for morons its a-ok.

FYI Sowell basically never uses any econometric in his columns, also you have to go through a dozen before you even see a "statistic" usually in the form of a factoid devoid of any real meaning.
 
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