TVs...LCD? Plasma? LED vs. CCFL?

Wolfpup

Wolfpup

CAGiversary!
This is kind of a pointless post, more me ruminating on it than anything. Feel free to join the fun ;)

My 2 year old 32" Sony LCD HDTV just got "abducted" for use in the living room when the old CRT finally more or less died, so I'm sort of looking for a new TV. I'll probably handle not having one for a while, but it'll drive me nuts sooner or later (just like it did last time).

Honestly I love my Sony, and LCD monitors I've used in general. It's got a great scaler that really handles SD content pretty decently (with a little tweaking, my PS2 for example could look roughly as good as my old CRT).

I'd *LOVE* a TV with LED backlighting, but I need something 40" or smaller, and there's basically nothing on the market that fits that anymore-one old Samsung, and that's it. Otherwise, Sony's 37" TV seems like a nice size. Just a bit bigger, without being overwhelming hopefully. Sony and Samsung are releasing models this fall with LED backlights, but they're in 46"+ sizes, which is WAY too big for me (40" may be pushing it, and honestly 32" is okay).

For the heck of it I'm staring at Panasonic's plasma sets too, although I don't know why...probably just because they're different. The supposed problems LCDs have don't actually exist in my experience (ie my TV and monitors don't have bluring, have viewing angles far past where you could actually sit to watch them, etc.-I think it's just cheap TN panels that have trouble with that).

Also, plasmas are CRAZY power hungry. A 40" LCD with CCFL draws around 200 watts, versus almost three times that for a 42" plasma, which is probably enough reason by itself to ignore them. (And LED backlighting would draw even less.) Plus, since I use a variety of aspect ratios, and of course play tons of games, I just don't know that a plasma makes any sense (though supposedly Panasonic's current models last a long time before reaching half brightness...though now I can't find where it says that on their site, or if it applies to their cheaper/smaller TVs).
On the other hand, at least they don't have mercury in them...

Just rambling :)
 
I'm a plasma fan myself. I didn't notice any big increase in my electric bill after getting it, either. I just love the brightness and color saturation.
 
I was just looking through AVS Forums stuff...and I guess you have to do break-in stuff for 1000 hours? (!) Oh well, I'm going to go stare at some in a store I think for the heck of it, but I'll probably just end up holding out for a few months until I'm completely sick of not having my own TV, then grabbing a 37" Sony and making do with CCFL :(
 
I'm going to suggest you buying a Sony CRT XBR960 so you get proper picture as well as an HDTV. If you MUST have it be flat, despite your better judgement, I'd suggest you buy a Kuro. Otherwise all you're buying is a flat screen, shit tech. Yes they're shit because almost all of these techs. can't do blacks right except the Kuro is suppose to be pretty good with them.
Seriously watch "Renaissance" in HD. You'll be bitching about seeing the gray's in blacks on that if you don't have the proper set. Oh and before anyone mentions the new Samsung OLED or LED I read a review of it compared to the Kuro with black's. It wasn't as good as the Kuro, bottom line.
 
I'm incredibly happy with my Series 4 Samsung LCD. We've got the 40", which is nice, and a friend got the 32" model which is the same screen only... smaller. It's got a fast response time so it's very nice for gaming, and it's contrast ratio is very nice. I've not once thought "that greyish part should be black!" It just looks black.

In my looking it seemed like Sony were a tad overpriced (or perhaps overspeced) for what I wanted. The Samsung have the nice features I wanted from the higher-end screen (response time namely), and not the stuff I didn't want (no need for 1080p at 50" or less), so it was a great middle of the road model.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LN40A...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1220910838&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LN32A...6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1220910838&sr=8-6
 
how about a Toshiba REGZA 42RV530U 42-Inch 1080p LCD HDTV
I heard from friend in Asian country that the LCD from Toshiba is Japanese made?? Most of everything else is Chinese made... I could be wrong since i don't know for sure.
I personally have a Sharp LCd 32" no complain here!
 
I have the 32" (previous generation) LCD daroga mentioned, and it's a fine fine set. I've had no complaints in almost 2 years of ownership. (Sometime this November, it'll be 2 years old.) I can't say how this (or any LCD) set does HD television, because I am too cheap to get the HD service from either TW or Dish/DirecTV. But for games, it looks phenomenal. And for Blu-Rays, it rocks too... I don't see any problems with it in many hours of playing previous and current gen consoles either. The Wii looks a little grainy, but that's probably because I need to get off my duff and hook the thing up to component. ;) The newer version of my set has more inputs, and believe me, you always can use one more input. ;)
 
They've got that older set with LED backlighting on sale a bit too...

One weird thing I don't understand-Samsung has warnings in their instruction manuals that their LCD TVs CAN suffer from burn in. I remember those same warning two years ago when I picked up my 32" Sony (edit: I mean about Samsung's models, not Sony's, which mention nothing about any burn in risk). I don't get that, as...what would be burning in? It's little filters opening and closing basically. I tend to switch to a full screen channel on my Sony if I walk away while playing a 4:3 game or whatever, just in case...
Plus, I've used LCD monitors for years on my computers, and the vast majority of the time they're displaying blue bars on the top and bottom of the screen (or other interface elements), but there isn't the slightest hint of burn in.

Yet Samsung explicitly says to limit 4:3 content to no more than 5% of your total viewing time. I didn't think *PLASMA* TVs were that bad.

I'm scared of plasmas though-always have been, but even the supporters on the AVS forums tell all these horror stories and all this all this "break in" period stuff. Although if I didn't know better (?), Samsung's LCD warnings are at least as ominous as what Panasonic puts in their manuals.

Almost think I should just pick that Samsung up while it's still available, since it could be a year or more before there's another set on the market like it. I've taken down measurements for the sets, just to see if these larger sizes will even fit. Weirdly, the 40" Samsung is quite a bit wider than the 42" Panasonic Plasma, or the 40" Sony.

If worse comes to worse I was REALLY happy with the image and size of the 37" Sony XBR...but I'd gladly pay more for an LED backlit version :whistle2:/
 
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I would go with an LCD over Plasma. Even though the price is better on a plasma set you still have the break in and extra power consumption. With LCDs one of the cons is the blackness levels tend to not be as deep (unless you opt for the LED backlit) which can be a problem if you care about that sort of thing. My advice would be to go to a big box retailer (i.e. Best Buy, Circuit City) and look at the TVs on the wall to see what you want then buy online.

Full disclosure: I work for Sony Electronics who only make LCDs TV.
 
That's cool you work for Sony! :)

Honestly I can't tell any real difference in store. The Panasonic plasmas look fine (at least with their brightness settings at 50% or above), but Sony's LCD TVs look fantastic too. (Now some off brand plasma they had next to a Panasonic looked hideous-absolute garbage image.)

That whole "viewing angle" thing with LCDs is a complete crock. My two year old Sony (which is probably worse than today's models) has absolutely ZERO image/color/whatever distortion even if you're standing literally 180 degrees to the side-not even the slightest hint of it.

The guy at Best Buy claimed he has a Panasonic plasma, and plays games on it all the time (including split screen Halo 2 with bars separating the screens, which you'd think would burn in). He claimed he fell asleep and the thing was on screen for 6 hours, and not a hint of anything wrong...and then Samsung LCD manuals act like a couple hours on one of those will burn in.

So many conflicting stories and what-not. Dang, if Sony would just get LED in smaller screens I'd buy one in a second. I love my 32" Sony, and I loved my 27" CRT before that (in both cases, even years after I bought them I can go home, flick them on, and think "geez does that look good", which is pretty cool).

I do get ghosting/motion blur/whatever you want to call it in a few specific instances-really minor, but like with my Tivo menus scrolling left or right there's a bit, or things like that. Normal game/TV usage though none of that shows up.

Not really sure about black levels-honestly I've always thought my LCD monitors (and TV) are fine. I don't think I can tell a real difference from CRT. I guess if you're in a dark room, and have a black screen on, you can tell it's still emitting light, but... Don't know though, maybe if I had a plasma home I'd be blown away by it.

Oh, and I looked through the manual for that single Samsung 40" LED backlit LCD, and you *can* disable the fancy LED effects where it alters their intensity depending on what's on screen. In theory that's nifty, but it's nice to know you can just have them act like a normal always on backlight in case that dosen't really work.

(Oh, and with both my CCFL monitors and TV, after a few years of use you can already tell they're dimmer than normal when you first turn them on-they have a brief warm up period, although I don't know that that really matters.)

EDIT: Actually, it's probably bad that it takes a 50% brightness setting to look decent in store on a plasma. My LCD looks fine at it's minimum setting (I figure I'll turn it up as the years go by and the bulbs get worse). My Best Buy's showroom is actually darker than I usually have it at home, so that's kind of disturbing, as is the advice that you use
 
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It seems like you really did a lot of research into the subject which is really half the battle. Generally once I tell people that I work for Sony on TVs, they ask what TV they should get. I then ask some basic questions like size and HD level and viewing environment in order to make a recommendation. Most people barely know half of the stuff that you are talking about so just keep looking and you will make a good decision.

The only thing I can really recommend is don't buy any of the cheap brands (ie Vizio). If you have any problems with those TVs you might as well throw them out because they really can't be fixed.

Also, what kind of viewing environment are you in? If you have a lot of direct light on the TV, plasmas tend to have a lot of glare on them. Its hard to see the problems in retail stores since they tend to be kept in the back away from sunlight and other direct light sources.
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']One weird thing I don't understand-Samsung has warnings in their instruction manuals that their LCD TVs CAN suffer from burn in.[/quote]
Look up "image persistence." I've never experienced it, but I have read a few claims. In Samsung's case I believe it's a CYA thing (their warning for plasmas is even more ominous). LCDs have been around for some time now in the computer world. If persistence or burn-in were a problem you'd think the internet would be flooded with pissed-off consumers.

As for plasma, while they may be (slightly) more susceptible, I don't think it's really much to worry about either. They're generally considered best for movies, particularly in a dark room, and most movies these days are shot scope. No one seems to be concerned about the constant display of those black bars.
 
As long as people are talking generally about TVs...does anyone here have experience with DLP sets? I've always liked the Samsung DLPs, but I've read that they have lagging issues with games, so I'm a little skittish about buying one. I'm curious to hear from any gamers who might have experience with these sets.
 
All I know is that I've heard a lot of input lag complaints too. That plus the sizes which are too large for me have put me off ever looking at them.
 
My Dad has a DLP. It's really nice and eliminates all the ghosting that I had with an old LCD TV (and a cheap one at that... $600 some 2 1/2 years ago for 32" ;) ). But, like wolf said, they're enormous. And you have bulbs to replace, that seem to get exponentially more expensive the older your set is.

On the other hand, the viewing angles (top to bottom) are crap. If your seat is too high or too low everything can get washed out. Likewise, his TV doesn't play too nicely with computers (no crisp images from the desktop or anything). His is quite a bit older than anything out there now, though (5 years maybe?), so all of these issues might be unique to that set, or the older generation of them, or whatever. The size is still the same. :(
 
Yeah, wouldn't surprise me if new DLP sets are better. LCDs shouldn't have any real ghosting issues though either. Probably does because it was a cheaper set (mine's from about that long ago and has perfect viewing angles and essentially no ghosting-at least not in games or shows or anything remotely normal).
 
my old LCD set was really only noticeable in older, primarily 2D games. The original Super Mario Bros. was the worst offender I think. Took some time to get used to it. It wasn't as bad as the ghosting on the 1000 and 2000 models of the PSP, but it was noticeable there. I never noticed it on any 3D games though. Not sure what the reasoning for that is, but I'm sure someone out there has an explanation.
 
Thanks for the information Wolfpup & daroga, the PC performance thing is worrisome. I watch a lot of media from my PC, so I need good VGA compatibility. I have an armoire-style TV cabinet that can hold a 50" widescreen comfortably, so size isn't a big issue for me. I know that the newer DLPs have better viewing angles, but I can't find anything about gaming lag or PC performance that's newer than 3 years ago.
 
Mine actually handles old 2D games fine, at least that I've tried. I played the whole Megaman Anniversary collection on it (On PS2...though I would have been using either s-video or component, and composite looked MUCH worse).

EDIT: I was talking about my 2 year old Sony LCD, probably not clear.

I'm guessing older side scrolling stuff would be more noticeable because...I don't think I can explain it well. Like there are larger areas changing more rapidly-with 3D stuff there's not these sudden changes of...I can't explain what's in my head :D

The only time I can remember seeing any response time issues on my TV is (weirdly enough), sometimes sort of on my SD Tivo's menus, depending on the background color. But you have to REALLY be paying attention to it, and I've never seen it in games or shows/movies.

IMO LCD screens have long since hit a point where response time isn't a real issue. It sort of was back 5+ years ago when I got a 25ms Samsung monitor. DVDs looked just fine, couldn't see any slow response. Ditto for Windows desktop stuff. But SOME games had issues, basically depending on what colors they were using (though even at it's worst, it wasn't unusable).

I think 8ms is pretty standard now for a few years on quality non-TN panels, and IMO they don't have issues (and non-TN panels also shouldn't have any issues with seeing an image from the sides).
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']Mine actually handles old 2D games fine, at least that I've tried. I played the whole Megaman Anniversary collection on it (On PS2...though I would have been using either s-video or component, and composite looked MUCH worse).

EDIT: I was talking about my 2 year old Sony LCD, probably not clear.

I'm guessing older side scrolling stuff would be more noticeable because...I don't think I can explain it well. Like there are larger areas changing more rapidly-with 3D stuff there's not these sudden changes of...I can't explain what's in my head :D

The only time I can remember seeing any response time issues on my TV is (weirdly enough), sometimes sort of on my SD Tivo's menus, depending on the background color. But you have to REALLY be paying attention to it, and I've never seen it in games or shows/movies.

IMO LCD screens have long since hit a point where response time isn't a real issue. It sort of was back 5+ years ago when I got a 25ms Samsung monitor. DVDs looked just fine, couldn't see any slow response. Ditto for Windows desktop stuff. But SOME games had issues, basically depending on what colors they were using (though even at it's worst, it wasn't unusable).

I think 8ms is pretty standard now for a few years on quality non-TN panels, and IMO they don't have issues (and non-TN panels also shouldn't have any issues with seeing an image from the sides).[/QUOTE]

I bought a Vizio Plasma after seeing the below topic and how many people were happy with them.
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184305

Iv had it for about a month now and for the price it was an amazing purchase. Games and movies look great and it doubles as a PC monitor which iv enjoyed watching porn on and playing Diablo 2 heh. Id suggest atleast looking into it. Its not 1080i nor the best TV on the market, but its a damn fine TV and you cant beat $500 for a 32' or $700 for a 42
 
Did I ask this already? Maybe I should make a new thread?

Anyway how happy are people with Samsung sets' scaling and deinterlacing capabilities. My Sony is really pretty phenomenal. I mean I'm watching content that's interlaced and has to be getting blown up about 13 times and it's near flawless. Does Samsung include great scalers too? Even HD content would mostly be scaled since it would be 720p for the current game systems for the most part, and I want to be able to play my old games too! (NES and SNES games look good on my Sony!)

(I'm toying with picking up that one Samsung, although it's so WIIIIIDE that I don't know if I can physically fit it anywhere. It's a 40" set but it's even wider than Panasonic's 42" sets, and it needs to fit in places that really are comfortable with 32" :D )
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']Did I ask this already? Maybe I should make a new thread?

Anyway how happy are people with Samsung sets' scaling and deinterlacing capabilities. My Sony is really pretty phenomenal. I mean I'm watching content that's interlaced and has to be getting blown up about 13 times and it's near flawless. Does Samsung include great scalers too? Even HD content would mostly be scaled since it would be 720p for the current game systems for the most part, and I want to be able to play my old games too! (NES and SNES games look good on my Sony!)
[/quote]
Yes. Granted, I can't draw comparisons because I haven't seen other sets in action, but I'm pleased with most scaled content. Last-gen games look surprisingly good. A bit softer than a CRT (edge enhancement helps) though the absence of flickering makes up for it imo. Most DVDs look great. Well-mastered discs make me wonder how much better Blu-ray could possibly look (can't wait to find out).

SD television though...not so good, but I don't watch much television, so it's not a big deal.
 
Thanks! Well, sounds like it's at least competent. (Sony and Samsung are probably two of the brands I'd most trust for LCD stuff-I've had some Samsung monitors that have really been quite good too, had solid scalers, etc.)
 
I forgot to mention that I'm using an old, non-upscaling DVD player (in other words, the tv is doing all the scaling/de-interlacing) and it looks fantastic.
 
Great! Thanks! Yeah, that's kind of a worst case scenario, so good to know it does a good job. I think that's one of many things people don't think about when they buy these junky off brand TVs. Ours handle SD and interlaced content really well.

I'll have to re-measure everything, see if I can possibly get away with sticking it in my room. Wish it were a little smaller.
 
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