Utah Rave(The Patriot Act In Action).

[bmulligan]

[quote name='mykevermin']We've been here before; there is probable cause that there are lots of drugs at most any given concert (with few exceptions) on any given night. That having been said, as I mentioned earlier, why aren't cops kicking the out of Van Halen fans, if we want to use "probable cause" as an excuse? [/quote]

Becuase there are known to be many more underage partygoers and more blatant drug use at raves than at most public events promoted by established businesses that have assets to protect. Fly-by-night rave organizers set up, do their business, then slide out to another location much more easily than someone who is paying rent on a nightclub every month or owns the Metrodome. The situations are completely different. And, by the way, there ARE police officers present at concert events, uniformed and undercover. Busts do occur quite frequently. Raves, however, are populated by a slightly lower age group, some of which are known to have hair triggers, some with weapons to match.

As camoor pointed out, if everything was in the straight and narrow, there ought be no need for the authorities to be so secretive about it. That they were/are arouses suspicion, don't you think?

Yes, I do think the same thing. But for lack of information, One cannot automatically assume the police are putting the "beat down" on innocent young partygoers. And, until someone has been arraigned and charged with a crime, it won't appear as part of the public record. Also if they are minors, the information will not be publicly released at all, unless the parents do so themselves.

See previous answer; please don't try to attack my arguments assumptions, then follow up by assembling some assumptions of your own as a defense of the police action. It looks poor.

I'm not attacking your arguments any more than you were attacking mine. How is offering an alternative assumption poor form when your arguments were based on a previous assumption? Becuase it's contrary to yours? They are equally conjecture, unless you happen to know all the facts of the situation. If you do, you should enlighten us.

 

[Msut77]

>>Becuase there are known to be many more underage partygoers and more blatant drug use at raves than at most public events promoted by established businesses that have assets to protect.

How would you know Bmullet?

And seriously what ing assets were there to protect? This was the the middle of the ing desert.

East bum would be an improvement they used to test A-Bombs there for sakes.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='Msut77']>>Becuase there are known to be many more underage partygoers and more blatant drug use at raves than at most public events promoted by established businesses that have assets to protect.

How would you know Bmullet?

And seriously what ing assets were there to protect? This was the the middle of the ing desert.

East bum would be an improvement they used to test A-Bombs there for sakes.[/QUOTE]

Listen Slut , I'm assuming your level of education is such that you are unable to read, or that you cannot pay attention to a paragraph long enough to retain the information contained therein.

I'm not talking about the RAVE ORGANIZERS assets, dumbshit. They have no assets to protect. They can skate out right after the party and not get caught because they don't have a door to unlock and an OPEN sign to turn on in the morning.

The people who own the Silverdome aren't going to lease out their venue to someone who hosts a rave party. They don't want to get sued when some underage girl gets date raped, dies from an overdose, or gets shot from some thug with a gun and an attitude. I'm saying that legitimate business wouldn't do this type of thing (usually, I know there are some that DO) because they want to stay in business and make money and not have to liquidate their assets from being sued.

How would I know what goes on at a rave type party? None of your mothering business jackoff. Or is that Mr. Jackoff? Becuase you were obviously meant to be wasted into your father's hand instead of inserted for fertilization.

 

[alonzomourning23]

Listen Slut , I'm assuming your level of education is such that you are unable to read, or that you cannot pay attention to a paragraph long enough to retain the information contained therein.

Oh how ironic.

 

[Trancendental]

[quote name='bmulligan']The people who own the Silverdome aren't going to lease out their venue to someone who hosts a rave party. They don't want to get sued when some underage girl gets date raped, dies from an overdose, or gets shot from some thug with a gun and an attitude. I'm saying that legitimate business wouldn't do this type of thing (usually, I know there are some that DO) because they want to stay in business and make money and not have to liquidate their assets from being sued.[/QUOTE]

Again, spoken like a true jackass that doesn't have a clue WHAT happens at a rave.

 

[mykevermin]

[quote name='camoor']Again, spoken like a true jackass that doesn't have a clue WHAT happens at a rave.[/QUOTE]

Agree'd, save the ad hominem. If people were being killed at raves, the media would be on that shit like white on bread, or Fox on Natalie Holloway. Raves aren't Sunday school, but they aren't the OK Corral either.

 

[Msut77]

>>How would I know what goes on at a rave type party? None of your mothering business jackoff. Or is that Mr. Jackoff?

Its mister thank you and dont you forget it. Imagine trailer trash like bmullet reffering to one of his betters without even a sir or beg pardon.

One can only assume you got your knowledge about raves, overdoses and assorted molestings of minors first hand.

Since thugs shooting guns and drug fueled rape seem to be the only things you know let me point out a fact.

This was outside on a ranch.

No dome silver or otherwise.

The organizers had the permission of the owner of the property.

 

[jaykrue]

Not all drugs are the same. Some drugs give you an emotional high - artificial happiness while others bring you up and give you energy you never thought you had before like 20 shots of espresso or Red Bull (colloquially known as 'uppers'). Examples would be Ecstasy or E or Speed respectively. Still there are even others which make you relaxed and sedated (known as 'downers'). An example would be weed. Raves are generally full of drugs but its the rare rave that there are drugs other than E or weed. Most of the rave participants are generally in a relaxed and sedated mood. Also, since these are the most common drugs the dealers are distributing the threshold is high for addictiveness so it takes a while for anyone to develop unlike cocaine. So people aren't going to act violently often. So there's very little chance of a riot. What I did notice before I got out of the rave scene myself is that they've started to distro heroin but even then it's still been a rare occasion. And that's why the overzealous nature of the Utah LEOs (law enforcement officials) is surprising to me. I feel that they did have a right to bust it because there's drugs there (that's a given). What I don't agree with is the manner. They really didn't need riot gear, semi-autos, and helicopters - most of the kids probably wouldn't have fought back physically as they were sedated. They're more likely to call the LEOs names and swear but peacefully submit.

 

[Sarang01]

B about the rape bit you DO know that E makes you unable to get an erection right?

 

[jaykrue]

[quote name='Sarang01']B about the rape bit you DO know that E makes you unable to get an erection right?[/QUOTE]

That doesn't matter anymore. Around the time I left the scene was when Viagra become really popular and ppl started mixing E and Viagra. It was a mix jokingly called Sextasy.

 

[Duo_Maxwell]

They may not be the OK Corral, I agree gunfights is a pretty big exaggeration, but raves (espeically underground raves) have lots of illegal activities going on. The police in this case were apparently working on cases from victims and witnesses that had told them the raves put on by these same people were host to drug dealing and sexual assault. I'm no boy scout and I've only been to one rave before (a legally hosted one, or so I was told), while there my friend and I met up with group of about 5 people who were using extasy and were able to bought about 1/8 oz of weed in the parking lot not too long after that. Granted the same may go on at a variety of concerts, but at least they provide adequate security for 1000 or so people and usually have medical and even some police crews there (at least at larger venues). They really aren't sunday school or the ok corral, but to try and pass raves off as something that's squeaky clean is far from the truth. No matter what anyone says they are about, if they don't see some illegal activities going on there they are likely very aloof or blind.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']They may not be the OK Corral, I agree gunfights is a pretty big exaggeration, but raves (espeically underground raves) have lots of illegal activities going on. The police in this case were apparently working on cases from victims and witnesses that had told them the raves put on by these same people were host to drug dealing and sexual assault. I'm no boy scout and I've only been to one rave before (a legally hosted one, or so I was told), while there my friend and I met up with group of about 5 people who were using extasy and were able to bought about 1/8 oz of weed in the parking lot not too long after that. Granted the same may go on at a variety of concerts, but at least they provide adequate security for 1000 or so people and usually have medical and even some police crews there (at least at larger venues). They really aren't sunday school or the ok corral, but to try and pass raves off as something that's squeaky clean is far from the truth. No matter what anyone says they are about, if they don't see some illegal activities going on there they are likely very aloof or blind.[/QUOTE]

Oh gee, what are you talking about? Only Camoor, mykevermin and mslut know what happens at raves- all raves- becuase THEY are the experts. Any other opinion to the contrary must be a lie. Illegal activity couldn't possible be happening, at least, nothing other than rampant drug abuse.

Mixing drugs and there relative ease of obtaining them at raves may seem innocuous to most of you newly initiated chronological adults but when you become a parent the world changes, especially if you have a daughter.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='camoor']Again, spoken like a true jackass that doesn't have a clue WHAT happens at a rave.[/QUOTE]

Obviously you have never frequented rave parties in the detroit and metropolitan area, jackass. You must have had a good white bread upbringing. Mammy's breast is still a safe suckle, isn't it ?

 

[mykevermin]

[quote name='bmulligan']Oh gee, what are you talking about? Only Camoor, mykevermin and mslut know what happens at raves- all raves- becuase THEY are the experts. Any other opinion to the contrary must be a lie. Illegal activity couldn't possible be happening, at least, nothing other than rampant drug abuse.

Mixing drugs and there relative ease of obtaining them at raves may seem innocuous to most of you newly initiated chronological adults but when you become a parent the world changes, especially if you have a daughter.[/QUOTE]

Expert? Hardly. Hell, I wish we did have an old club kid on here to tell you how it is, given that you seem to think that while it would be good parenting to have caution/not allow your child to go to a rave (and how cute of you to be so sexist to make the emotive appeal based on your daughter, but not a son you or we may or may not have ). I will agree that what you seem to imply *is* good parenting, but if you think that the risk of something happening at a rave is any more likely/dangerous than any other kind of "legal" party, you're dead wrong.

If you are a parent, I imagine you surely know better than that. Are raves potentially dangerous? Yes; however, you are completely and totally far too trustworthy of what you deem to be "legitimate" and "illegitimate" enterprises (parties, clubs, concerts, etc.).

Go to a "real" party; what discretion is there for people drinking of age, drinking responsibly, assuring designated drivers, etc.?

Go to a "real" club; how many people (mostly women I will admit) couldn't pass for over 18, much less 21? How much lurid activity is going on under the watchfull eye of cameras, security, and management?

Go to a "real" concert; again, who is being so cautious as to regulate their drinking? How many people are openly sharing a joint? How many people clearly not of age are drinking?

I'm tired (another day of blanching ), but I'm not trying to be condescending (though it surely comes off that way). My point is this: yes, raves can be full of drugs, but it's foolish to point at a rave and say "look at all that illegal activity that's maybe going on!" as a justification for this police activity, simply because, in many, many legitimate businesses, whether the business is actively trying to cover its ass or not (carding people, for instance), high levels of illegal activities are going on in various degrees. In my opinion, they are highly comparable, and I don't expect you to agree. However, if I may rebut your emotional appeal, you are likely to be as concerned if your daughter went clubbing at "The Sex Lounge" as if she went raving at "Technosaurus Rex," I would hope.

 

[Trancendental]

[quote name='bmulligan']Oh gee, what are you talking about? Only Camoor, mykevermin and mslut know what happens at raves- all raves- becuase THEY are the experts. Any other opinion to the contrary must be a lie. Illegal activity couldn't possible be happening, at least, nothing other than rampant drug abuse.

Mixing drugs and there relative ease of obtaining them at raves may seem innocuous to most of you newly initiated chronological adults but when you become a parent the world changes, especially if you have a daughter.[/QUOTE]

Will somebody PLEASE think of the children

How many more goddamn times am I going to have to hear this pathetic excuse for locking down all fun and personal responsibility?

How much power are we going to give the government to make sure that noone, anywhere, ever does anything that carries some degree of risk or violates the moral code that politicians are so eager to force down our throats.

I am so sick of this new sue-happy, I-can't-take-care-of-myself-and-my-children America.

If you can't keep your underage daughter away from raves, BMullet, then I suggest you stop posting here and start seeing a family counselor. Don't try and shut down my fun because you can't be a good parent.

 

[Msut77]

>>Mixing drugs and there relative ease of obtaining them at raves may seem innocuous to most of you newly initiated chronological adults but when you become a parent the world changes, especially if you have a daughter.

Cry me a river Bmullet.

Boo inghoo.

Apparently the only wrongdoing by the organizer was to get the wrong permit.

A technicality.

Notice there was no warrant.

Sure some of those there had drugs, but using that yardstick basically means shutting down any concert, club or any gathering of 10 or more people.

Call the SWAT or National Guard on a Sunday any church I guarantee you will find something to retroactively justify it.

 

[jaykrue]

[quote name='mykevermin']Hell, I wish we did have an old club kid on here to tell you how it is, given that you seem to think that while it would be good parenting to have caution/not allow your child to go to a rave (and how cute of you to be so sexist to make the emotive appeal based on your daughter, but not a son you or we may or may not have ). [/QUOTE]

*cough*

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='camoor'] Will somebody PLEASE think of the children

How many more goddamn times am I going to have to hear this pathetic excuse for locking down all fun and personal responsibility?[/quote]

Most minors are not able to handle, nor understand the concept of "personal responsibility.

How much power are we going to give the government to make sure that noone, anywhere, ever does anything that carries some degree of risk or violates the moral code that politicians are so eager to force down our throats.

Obviously you don't follow the "moral code" anyway, so why would you care?
No one is threatening to take away your fun - as long as it's legal and you are of legal age. I'm guessing no on both counts here.

I am so sick of this new sue-happy, I-can't-take-care-of-myself-and-my-children America.

If you can't keep your underage daughter away from raves, BMullet, then I suggest you stop posting here and start seeing a family counselor. Don't try and shut down my fun because you can't be a good parent.

My parenting is just fine, thank you. Or, at least it will prove to be as long as my son doesn't turn out to resemble anything like you. Your wayward nature and rebelliousness against your parents is causing you to blame everyone else for your own guilt and misery. Don't take it out on the rest of us, just tell your parents how they were right all along and get it over with. And about that family counselor, do you have that number handy? I'll bet you do...

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='Msut77']>>Mixing drugs and there relative ease of obtaining them at raves may seem innocuous to most of you newly initiated chronological adults but when you become a parent the world changes, especially if you have a daughter.

Cry me a river Bmullet.

Boo inghoo.

Apparently the only wrongdoing by the organizer was to get the wrong permit.

A technicality.

Notice there was no warrant.

Sure some of those there had drugs, but using that yardstick basically means shutting down any concert, club or any gathering of 10 or more people.

Call the SWAT or National Guard on a Sunday any church I guarantee you will find something to retroactively justify it.[/QUOTE]


Now look closely camoor - Above is a prime example of the result of bad parenting. Or perhaps just the failing of the public education system, or both.

 

[Trancendental]

[quote name='bmulligan']My parenting is just fine, thank you. Or, at least it will prove to be as long as my son doesn't turn out to resemble anything like you. Your wayward nature and rebelliousness against your parents is causing you to blame everyone else for your own guilt and misery. Don't take it out on the rest of us, just tell your parents how they were right all along and get it over with. And about that family counselor, do you have that number handy? I'll bet you do...[/QUOTE]



Take down your sig BMullet.

It's obvious that under your thumb, your son is already "pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, and numbered".

And FYI, the next time you're bragging on the internet about how many chicks you banged in HS, we can have another little talk about morality and respecting others as human beings and not objects of material gratification.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='mykevermin']Expert? Hardly. Hell, I wish we did have an old club kid on here to tell you how it is, given that you seem to think that while it would be good parenting to have caution/not allow your child to go to a rave (and how cute of you to be so sexist to make the emotive appeal based on your daughter, but not a son you or we may or may not have ). I will agree that what you seem to imply *is* good parenting, but if you think that the risk of something happening at a rave is any more likely/dangerous than any other kind of "legal" party, you're dead wrong.

If you are a parent, I imagine you surely know better than that. Are raves potentially dangerous? Yes; however, you are completely and totally far too trustworthy of what you deem to be "legitimate" and "illegitimate" enterprises (parties, clubs, concerts, etc.).

Go to a "real" party; what discretion is there for people drinking of age, drinking responsibly, assuring designated drivers, etc.?

Go to a "real" club; how many people (mostly women I will admit) couldn't pass for over 18, much less 21? How much lurid activity is going on under the watchfull eye of cameras, security, and management?

Go to a "real" concert; again, who is being so cautious as to regulate their drinking? How many people are openly sharing a joint? How many people clearly not of age are drinking?
[/QUOTE]

It's not sexist, it's reality. I'm guessing that none of you have any children at all. I guarantee that your attitutes will change when you do.

As for the differences between "legit" parties and raves, as you state, there are illegal activities going on everywhere. No place is immune to bad things happening. They are still different environments and I can't, for the life of me, understand why you are constantly trying to defend this type of party as being at par with other public events. They are not the same. People don't freely distribute and or solicit drugs at concerts. People don't repeatedly ask you if you want some E at a nightclub. And there actually is a policy at bars not to serve underage patrons. Raves have no such restrictions. Raves are free-for-alls. Very much like a Grateful Dead concert. They are recipies for disaster. Maybe not on any given night, but maybe the next one.

Granted, none of any of this justifies a millitary ambush. However, simply saying there was nothing bad going on doesn't make it the god's honest truth, does it ? For the thousandth time - we don't know all the facts about the event. It is interesting to note that those who defend the partygoers become defensive if anyone questions their integrity, yet they have already passed judgement on the integrity of the police and claim they have perfect right to do so.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='camoor']

Take down your sig BMullet.

It's obvious that under your thumb, your son is already "pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, and numbered".

And FYI, the next time you're bragging on the internet about how many chicks you banged in HS, we can have another little talk about morality and respecting others as human beings and not objects of material gratification.[/QUOTE]

I think you have me confused with someone else. I don't brag. And, unlike you I do not "bang" chicks. Although I may have some naked pictures of your mother lying around somewhere.

And why would I want to talk about respecting others with someone like you who has no respect for himself ? I'm still thinking.......still thinking....

 

[Msut77]

Hey Bmullet.

If the belief that there should at least be just cause or a warrant before the geheim staats polizei come out in force is evidence of a bad upbringing.

How were you Raised? As a good german?

Scumbag.

 

[mykevermin]

[quote name='bmulligan']It's not sexist, it's reality. I'm guessing that none of you have any children at all. I guarantee that your attitutes will change when you do.[/quote]

Sexism (primarily in the form of patriarchy) is reality. There's a really funny (to me, anyway) research paper about parenting patterns in egalitarian ("liberal" if you will) households, but I'll save it for another day, if you're interested.

As for the differences between "legit" parties and raves, as you state, there are illegal activities going on everywhere. No place is immune to bad things happening. They are still different environments and I can't, for the life of me, understand why you are constantly trying to defend this type of party as being at par with other public events. They are not the same. People don't freely distribute and or solicit drugs at concerts. People don't repeatedly ask you if you want some E at a nightclub. And there actually is a policy at bars not to serve underage patrons. Raves have no such restrictions. Raves are free-for-alls. Very much like a Grateful Dead concert. They are recipies for disaster. Maybe not on any given night, but maybe the next one.

I will vehemently disagree with the above statements; the difference is mainly in overt/covert behaviors. At a club or a show, distribution/usage is much more subdued and subtle than at a rave, and that, while it is qualitatively different, doesn't change your child's risk exposure in either environment drastically. Also, some raves are legitimately thrown, as would have been the case with the OP if technicalities didn't get in the way of it; as raves increase in number and become part of mainstream culture, they, like everything else, will be commodified and given legitimacy (socially, anyway), that will make all the risque behavior covert.

Granted, none of any of this justifies a millitary ambush. However, simply saying there was nothing bad going on doesn't make it the god's honest truth, does it ? For the thousandth time - we don't know all the facts about the event. It is interesting to note that those who defend the partygoers become defensive if anyone questions their integrity, yet they have already passed judgement on the integrity of the police and claim they have perfect right to do so.

I never said nothing bad was going on; my argument is stated above and elsewhere. As far as questioning the integrity of police, the treatment of people at a rave, compared to a (presumed) lack of similar action at other clubs, bars, and similar establishments gels perfectly with my argument. I'm not certain how you're confused over my perspective when it is clear that acting militarily against a rave, but allowing other businesses to operate is a clear indication of that missing integrity.

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='Msut77']Hey Bmullet.

If the belief that there should at least be just cause or a warrant before the geheim staats polizei come out in force is evidence of a bad upbringing.

...

Scumbag.[/QUOTE]

Congratulations, you have just provided the first half of a conditional statement. I'm still waiting for the second half of the sentence. Perhaps you are not just a victim of bad parenting but also of the public school system. Do you even attempt to proof what you type after you type it or do you just spasm and shoot your load into any vacuum that presents itself ? In case your wondering, that was a rhetorical question. You don't need to answer it because you already have, in other words. In case you don't know what a rhetorical question is you can look it up here: www.google.com

 

[bmulligan]

[quote name='"mykevermin"']I will vehemently disagree with the above statements; the difference is mainly in overt/covert behaviors. At a club or a show, distribution/usage is much more subdued and subtle than at a rave, and that, while it is qualitatively different, doesn't change your child's risk exposure in either environment drastically.[/QUOTE]

You can disagree and be vehement all you want but you are proving a portion of my point when you acknowledge the covert/overt difference between venues. Open acceptance of illegal behavior is like giving a permission slip to young people and providing them with an environment for such freedom is tempting disaster. The 'covert' nature of drug use and/or abuse at other established venues speaks volumes as to it's acceptedness by the general public. Seeing people trying to hide their illegal actions verifies that they are wrong, dangerous, and need to be hidden for some reason. This small fact can be all the difference in a child's decision to do a certain drug or not to. When all his friends are doing it and it's in an acceptable environment and there are no obstacles to prevent him from doing so, peer pressure usually prevails. When that temptation is surrounded by possible consequences such as arrest or expulsion, the chances are greater that a youth may decide to 'just say no'. The environments may have similar people, similar substances, and similar users, but you cannot equate the two, they are completely different.

I'm not certain how you're confused over my perspective when it is clear that acting militarily against a rave, but allowing other businesses to operate is a clear indication of that missing integrity.

Not when we don't know the facts about what was happening at that particular rave. If it were necessary, I'm sure you would see that type of action at any other event. Just becuase that type of action was taken doesn't make it wrong which seems to be the argument most others are making, likening it to a rounding up of the jews to be sent to the gas chamber.