UW-Madison professor under fire by WI republicans

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Apossum

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Wis. Lawmakers Want Univ. Instructor Fired

By Associated Press

MADISON, Wis. - More than 60 state lawmakers are urging the University of
Wisconsin-Madison to fire an instructor who has argued that the U.S.
government orchestrated the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

A letter sent Thursday and signed by 52 Assembly representatives and nine
state senators condemns a decision to let Kevin Barrett teach an
introductory class on Islam this fall.

UW-Madison Provost Pat Farrell launched a review after Barrett spoke last
month on a talk show about his views that the terrorist attacks were the
result of a government conspiracy to spark war in the Middle East. After the
review, Farrell said Barrett was a qualified instructor who can present his
views as one perspective on the attacks.

"I still have every expectation this will be a very positive educational
experience for our students," Farrell said Thursday. "Some are upset about
Mr. Barrett's viewpoints on 9/11 and don't want to pay much attention to
what makes for a quality educational experience."

Republican Rep. Steve Nass said the lawmakers' letter, which called
Barrett's views "academically dishonest," sends a strong message to top UW
leaders.

"When 61 legislators condemn a decision by UW-Madison and demand the
dismissal of Kevin Barrett, the leadership of the UW System operates at its
own peril if it continues to ignore views of the taxpayers," Nass said in a
statement.

Barrett has said Nass was "only interested in name-calling and witch
hunting."

The state Assembly last week refused to take up a proposed resolution
supported by Nass calling on university to fire Barrett, who will get $8,247
as a part-time instructor this fall.

In Colorado, another professor has been under fire for an essay likening
white-collar victims of the Sept. 11 attacks to Nazi official Adolf
Eichmann, a key planner of the Holocaust.

University of Colorado officials concluded that ethnic studies professor
Ward Churchill could not be fired over the essay because of free speech
protections, but they launched an investigation into allegations of academic
misconduct. A faculty committee concluded he committed research misconduct
and university officials said last month that he should be fire. Churchill
has appealed to keep his job.
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his views are pretty out there, but a lot of professors and other legit people have similar feelings about the war.

but he won't be talking about 9/11, the government or anything like that in the class. if it's the one I'm thinking of (the only intro class he's teaching) then it's Islam from 500-1500 :roll:
 
They might as well say "well you're speach is free because we won't prosecute you for it BUT we still want your job"
 
Someone so wilfully ignorant and dishonest should not be teaching others at any level, but I think that's for the people of Wisconsin to decide.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']They might as well say "well you're speach is free because we won't prosecute you for it BUT we still want your job"[/quote]

That's always been the case, but it has been on a sharp incline in recent years. Corporations are increasingly reaching into your bedroom and free time to dictate what you can say or do, from smoking to drinking to politics. It's a brave new world!
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Someone so wilfully ignorant and dishonest should not be teaching others at any level, but I think that's for the people of Wisconsin to decide.[/quote]

...like creationists and fundies
 
Well, if the provost is sticking by the professor, that adds a whole new element to the story. The reason is this: the provost is nobody's friend but the university's. It's probably in their best interest to ged rid of the prof (from a PR standpoint), but their decision to stand by him, contrary to those of you would believe in "liberal academia," is surprising to me.

It shouldn't bother anyone that controversial arguments are made. Any negative reaction to what this guy has to say, devoid of hearing his argument, is merely a fear of knowledge. (Now, of course, there are absurd arguments in classrooms that aren't worth any merit, like my logic prof who tried to prove the existence of God using logical statements). At any rate, to react to an argument without taking in the substance of it is foolish and demanding of an education system that indoctrinates values and perspectives, rather than one that encourages self-discovery and critical thinking skills.

I would, however, like to see fewer teachers bash Bush in-class. I may agree with them, but it just doesn't have any place in the classroom. In fact, it irks me much more when they say something I agree with than something I don't. A professor is responsible to teach as objectively as possible. While that may be impossible, as I do truly think that education leads to more liberal thinking (as do I agree with the necessary corollary of that, conservative thinking requires the cessation of knowledge to some degree), that doesn't mean a teacher should opine in class. I don't bash Bush at all - while I think it's backwards and foolish to offer tax incentives to hire ex-felons (a Bush proposal), rather than, say, offer job training and social skills training to ex-felons, I treat both arguments as philosphically conservative and liberal. Becuase, quite frankly, they are. If there's one thing I'm proud of, it's that I keep my opinions in class to myself. Although I did recommend they watch Pierce Brosnan in "The Matador." ;)
 
A professor is responsible to teach as objectively as possible.
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and that's all that matters really. A certain amount of opinion makes it's way in, since profs are human too, but I doubt this guy will be jumping on desks and demanding the destruction of the American way during class. For all we know, he lives an innocuous life, but has some radical views, like a lot of people.

as far as PR goes, this is really not bad enough to fire him...I wonder what his exact words were. plus, I'm sure 9/10 wisconsinites agree :lol: jk

Someone so wilfully ignorant and dishonest should not be teaching others at any level, but I think that's for the people of Wisconsin to decide.
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you'd be surprised how many people in liberal academia have radical dissenting views on the war, oil, the Bush administration, and 9/11. Sometimes it's like they're trying to outdo each other with the craziest, but still plausible, theories about why we're in war in the first place. shocking, I know. but if we had a good reason, this wouldn't be happening :p
 
Teachers / Instructors / Professors shouldn't weasel their opinions and view points into the curriculum.

Being a classroom-specific authority figure is a good platform for brainwashing opinion-less, impressionable students, though.

One of my art teachers would go into 30 - 45 minute long rants about politics (specifically bashing; nothing really positive or up for discussion). All I could say to myself was, "... what in the fuck does this have to do with drawing a vase of flowers?"
 
[quote name='Brak']Teachers / Instructors / Professors shouldn't weasel their opinions and view points into the curriculum.[/QUOTE]

And that is completely irrelevant, as the statements in question were made on a talk show, not in a classroom.
 
[quote name='evanft']And that is completely irrelevant, as the statements in question were made on a talk show, not in a classroom.[/QUOTE]
Since I didn't mention name of this specific prof., it was a general statement -- like the one myke made, but you didn't point out because you slurp on his every word.

It is relevent to the discussion, asslips.
 
It ain't a "fight" when someone gets knocked out in the first punch.
 
[quote name='Apossum']you'd be surprised how many people in liberal academia have radical dissenting views on the war, oil, the Bush administration, and 9/11. Sometimes it's like they're trying to outdo each other with the craziest, but still plausible, theories about why we're in war in the first place. shocking, I know. but if we had a good reason, this wouldn't be happening :p[/QUOTE]

I don't really care if people have radical opinions (I have some myself), just that they don't teach impressionable students ridiculous conspiracy theories as if they were fact on the taxpayer's dime.
 
Objective viewpoint - that's a laugh. All of history and political "science" is subjective. If you believe otherwise, you've just been successfully brainwashed.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I don't really care if people have radical opinions (I have some myself), just that they don't teach impressionable students ridiculous conspiracy theories as if they were fact on the taxpayer's dime.[/QUOTE]

QFT. Opinions should be allowed and welcomed in any college setting (ESPECIALLY CPE and Gov't).

HOWEVER. You need to base your opinions in reality and be prepared to back them up with fact. I didn't pay to complete my education just to hear a tree-fucker (or Pat Robertson-fucker if that pleases you) tell me the real reason we lost thousands of lives and our economy reallywent in the toilet for a few years was because our all-powerful Vice President decided he wanted his oil options to skyrocket. Chuck Norris would kill your whole family with a Lipton teabag if he heard you say that.

It was amazing the things I would hear some days when I went to class. Everyday, I would hear this one guy bring up how he hated Bush for one reason or another in GOV class. Finally I got tired of it and called him on one of his conspiracies like von Karma in Phoenix Wright. "I just know it's true! You're just a Bush lover!" Yes, but what does that have to do with the President? I'm up for spirited political debate, but I'm tired of kneejerk judgements on either side of the aisle. I was also tired of not being able to learn anything new because some douchebag wouldn't shut up about how he didn't vote for him, so he wasn't his President. I finally asked him one day who he voted for. "Umm...I didn't vote because I didn't like either one of them." Then I told him to shut his piehole if he wasn't going to exercise his views where it actually counted. Finally got to learn something the next day, because he didn't show up for class again. Anyways, off on tanget..
 
I don't really care if people have radical opinions (I have some myself), just that they don't teach impressionable students ridiculous conspiracy theories as if they were fact on the taxpayer's dime.
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of course not. unless it's relevant to the discussion at hand and presented as an opinion, that kind of thing has no place in a curriculum. I'm just saying it's possible to have weird views but be a good professor at the same time.

point in case-- I'm sure that holocaust denier who's teaching at NWU is totally competent, considering they haven't fired him. I'm sure he has had plenty of Jewish students as well...and I doubt he brings it up when he's teaching engineering classes.


I really don't believe a student's impressionability has anything to do with it. A person should learn to not be so easily swayed by the time they get to college. Professors are supposed to challenge people's thinking. If a kid heard this guy's theory, took it at face value, and totally believed in it, then that kid isn't doing his job as a college student...he isn't critically thinking about it. On the other hand, if a student just gets irate and blocks out anything the prof says, that's also not too good.


HOWEVER. You need to base your opinions in reality and be prepared to back them up with fact. I didn't pay to complete my education just to hear a tree-er (or Pat Robertson-er if that pleases you) tell me the real reason we lost thousands of lives and our economy reallywent in the toilet for a few years was because our all-powerful Vice President decided he wanted his oil options to skyrocket. Chuck Norris would kill your whole family with a Lipton teabag if he heard you say that.
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they're opinions-- they don't need facts to back them up, or else they wouldn't be opinions anymore, would they? :wall: that would suck if that's all your prof talked about the whole time though....I've been there. ultra liberal students + ultra liberal professor + discussion based class = hell. it's just so one sided. the one conservative guy in the class just stopped talking after the first week because he would get verbally raped by half the class every time he opened his mouth :lol:
 
Teachers with these type of radical views are often the worst teachers -- self-indulgent, "Look-at-Me" kind of people, who view themselves instructing a class similar to them being the star of their own television hour. It's about the education, not the fucking teacher... which most teachers just don't understand.

Where's the line of what's too radical, though? Even if it doesn't seep it's way into the curriculum (and it more than likely will, in reality), what's too much? Would they let Charles Manson, with his racial Beatles prophecies, teach a class, if he was capable of doing so? Would they let Terminator X (Public Enemy DJ) teach a class, if capable, even though he believes that AIDS was dropped into Africa by Jewish scientists? Granted, this teacher can't be compared to celebrities, and his ideology is a little "safer", albeit leftist (if it wasn't, it would be in the media, in this light); but what's too far?
 
There is a reason for the phrase, "Those who can do, those who cannot teach."

Which is why I am trying to get into teaching because apparently I can't do shit.
 
[quote name='Apossum']



they're opinions-- they don't need facts to back them up, or else they wouldn't be opinions anymore, would they? :wall: [/QUOTE]

They do, however, have to be based in reality. I'd look pretty retarded if I went around yelling the sky was purple.
 
[quote name='Brak']Teachers with these type of radical views are often the worst teachers -- self-indulgent, "Look-at-Me" kind of people, who view themselves instructing a class similar to them being the star of their own television hour. It's about the education, not the fucking teacher... which most teachers just don't understand.

Where's the line of what's too radical, though? Even if it doesn't seep it's way into the curriculum (and it more than likely will, in reality), what's too much? Would they let Charles Manson, with his racial Beatles prophecies, teach a class, if he was capable of doing so? Would they let Terminator X (Public Enemy DJ) teach a class, if capable, even though he believes that AIDS was dropped into Africa by Jewish scientists? Granted, this teacher can't be compared to celebrities, and his ideology is a little "safer", albeit leftist (if it wasn't, it would be in the media, in this light); but what's too far?[/QUOTE]

the professor's personality doesn't matter and that's purely a personal view...my Phy Sci prof last semester always mentioned the various awards ceremonies she was speaking at and how tough her day was because she had to write this textbook or show the dean of Harvard around etc etc always going on about her distinguished, accomplished life...

but the class is one of the most highly recommended courses at the university and for good reason...she's a great professor who makes you feel like you're getting what you pay for and then some.

good question about what's too far. I'd say if they are a threat (like Manson would be) or if they fuck with the actual curriculum to the point where nobody knows what the hell is going on, then they probably shouldn't be teaching.
 
[quote name='Apossum']the professor's personality doesn't matter and that's purely a personal view...my Phy Sci prof last semester always mentioned the various awards ceremonies she was speaking at and how tough her day was because she had to write this textbook or show the dean of Harvard around etc etc always going on about her distinguished, accomplished life...

but the class is one of the most highly recommended courses at the university and for good reason...she's a great professor who makes you feel like you're getting what you pay for and then some.

good question about what's too far. I'd say if they are a threat (like Manson would be) or if they fuck with the actual curriculum to the point where nobody knows what the hell is going on, then they probably shouldn't be teaching.[/quote]

I find it amazing that there isn't as much scrutiny with college professor as there is with public school teachers and No Child Left Behind. Most of my professors were good IMO, but sometimes I had to wonder how some of them kept their jobs.
 
Does anyone here understand what this guy is teaching? He is going to provide a week's worth of course study focusing around his demented nutjob theory that 9/11 was an inside job.

Now, I personally have no problem with jagoffs like this guy and Churchill feeling it necessary to espouse their beliefs on their students; if they want to throw away daddy's hard earned money listening to that kind of hatespeech, then so be it. But I draw the line when these professors and teachers start making their moonbat logic part of the curriculum.

As an undergrad, I had a slew of required classes that I had to take, and many came complete with a liberal-minded professor who felt they were the only one chosen by God (or for liberals, Bill Clinton), to inform us that while it was great to have an opinion, theirs was the only correct one, and thus the only one that mattered. Naturally, I felt it was my duty to be a smarmy prick and pick a fight at every corner where the professor started trying to pass of personal views as fact, if for nothing else than to make them state what was verifible fact and what was speculation. Needless to say, I didn't make very many friends with my professors, (not that I could've given less of a fuck), but I digress.

In one of my aforementioned required classes, I had a professor who felt so strongly about the ills of the Bush administration that she made us watch Farenheit 9/11 in class. Now, being the nice guy that I am, I kept my mouth shut through all 2 hours of lies, deception and outright fraud perpetrated on the public by a sad pathetic man who sounded like he was still pissed off at the prom king from high school for fucking his prom date/ mom.

Then, when it came time for the class to present our final papers on the subject of our choice, I decided to take a play from her playbook and show Farenhype 9/11, the truth behind the movie, which was basically a point by point dismemberment of every single point moore made in his pathetic excuse for a documentary. Not 2 minutes into the movie, the professor grabbed the reomote from me, and asked me what the fuck I thought I was doing, and I told her "adding a little prespective" since she felt so strongly about advocating moore's point that she felt the need to take an entire fucking week to show it.

Well, now I had done the one thing you NEVER do to a liberal acedemic: question in any way ANY opinion or view they hold, EVER. She went into a rage, grabbed the DVD, and tried to break it in half. Of course, me being the peaceful gun-toting, bible-thumpin, bush- lovin, red-statin man I am (notice how I even left the g off the last 3 hyphentations, for authenticity's sake) , I smiled my big toothy republican grin and let her have a breakdown for the entire building to see, because I'm a giver.

And the moral of the story? Realize that, no matter what your political affiliation, your personal opinions are just that: opinions. And while it is perfectly ok to share your opinions, passing them off as fact and shoving it down your students throat doesn't make you anything more than a petty partisan hack.

and BTW, thanks myke; I laughed my fucking ass off at your posts. Great stuff.

V
 
[quote name='Veritas1204']and BTW, thanks myke; I laughed my fucking ass off at your posts. Great stuff.[/QUOTE]

Well, that could either be (1) I'm damned funny, which I do have fleeting moments of genuine humor, or (2) I'm such a naive liberal that what I say is a comedy goldmine to you, in the sense that I believe what I say.

Can't tell which you think it is, since I really only have one substantive post in this thread. I want to think that I've tapped into #2 in your mind, but if you'd care to elaborate, I sure wouldn't mind.
 
I was thinking of #1 when I wrote that. Don't get me wrong, it is obvious to me that we both hold differing political opinions, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy each others' sense of humor.

As for the naieve liberal meme, I have read a few posts written by you and find you to be a well reasoned commenter. And while I may disagree with some of what you say, I give you credit for using logic and humor to strengthen your arguement, instead of ad hominem and regurgitated talking points.

And anyway, how could I talk shit to someone with such a cool avitar?

V
 
[quote name='Veritas1204']I was thinking of #1 when I wrote that. Don't get me wrong, it is obvious to me that we both hold differing political opinions, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy each others' sense of humor.

As for the naieve liberal meme, I have read a few posts written by you and find you to be a well reasoned commenter. And while I may disagree with some of what you say, I give you credit for using logic and humor to strengthen your arguement, instead of ad hominem and regurgitated talking points.

And anyway, how could I talk shit to someone with such a cool avitar?

V[/QUOTE]

Be patient. I'm certainly capable of ad hominems, loathe though I may be to admit it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Be patient. I'm certainly capable of ad hominems, loathe though I may be to admit it.[/quote]

aren't we all. I got so fucking mad in another thread, I think I called everyone except cheapy an anti-semite.

So yeah, I know what you mean
 
And, before I forget, welcome aboard. Divergent views or not, I enjoy seeing people who are a boon to the forums.

Those people still blathering about Bush saying the word "shit," on the other hand, are those I'd prefer to avoid.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']And, before I forget, welcome aboard. Divergent views or not, I enjoy seeing people who are a boon to the forums.

Those people still blathering about Bush saying the word "shit," on the other hand, are those I'd prefer to avoid.[/quote]

Please reserve the circle-jerks to your PMs.
 
[quote name='Brak']Since I didn't mention name of this specific prof., it was a general statement -- like the one myke made, but you didn't point out because you slurp on his every word.

It is relevent to the discussion, asslips.[/QUOTE]

myke was going on a tangent within a post that did concern (at least implicitly) this case. You weren't.
 
[quote name='evanft']myke was going on a tangent within a post that did concern (at least implicitly) this case. You weren't.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it was... although I do appreciate you telling me otherwise.

My post was in vein of his, and others, particularly his last paragraph. The only reason to go out of your way, earlier, to say otherwise was because you thought I was using that as ammunition for his termination -- although I wasn't.

Again; thanks, though. :)
 
It's an interesting situation. I guess the ground level question is, when does a teacher's personality, and belief set, pose a problem for them teaching.

For example, I'm sure there are still quite a few people who wouldn't want their children taught by an avowed communist. There is the assumption that the subject matter may, in some way, be tainted by beliefs they wouldn't want passed on to their children.

I'm not even sure how accurate that belief is... after all, it varies based on the teacher. Some teachers would never mention their political beliefs, other can't WAIT for the opportunity to evangelize or demonize a particular topic.

It's worth thinking about. Should we draw a line on allowing people with certain beliefs teach? Where should the line be drawn. I, by way of example, would be very uncomfortable with K12 classes being taught by a member of NAMBLA. The teacher in question may never have been convicted of child molestation, but his stances on the issue make it a distinct possibility.
 
yea don't you know about the unoffical rule ?

"9/11 was the result of OBL and his terrorist followers who hate freedom and those who support it..anyone who says other wise is a supporter of terrorist"

thats what the government's stand on it... so much for freedom of speech :(
 
I always prefer a professor that will tell you the facts and have you discuss what you think about said facts. Unlike the ones who render the textbook completely useless because they don't agree with anything anyone ever wrote.
 
[quote name='Revenantae']It's an interesting situation. I guess the ground level question is, when does a teacher's personality, and belief set, pose a problem for them teaching.

For example, I'm sure there are still quite a few people who wouldn't want their children taught by an avowed communist. There is the assumption that the subject matter may, in some way, be tainted by beliefs they wouldn't want passed on to their children.

I'm not even sure how accurate that belief is... after all, it varies based on the teacher. Some teachers would never mention their political beliefs, other can't WAIT for the opportunity to evangelize or demonize a particular topic.

It's worth thinking about. Should we draw a line on allowing people with certain beliefs teach? Where should the line be drawn. I, by way of example, would be very uncomfortable with K12 classes being taught by a member of NAMBLA. The teacher in question may never have been convicted of child molestation, but his stances on the issue make it a distinct possibility.[/QUOTE]

That's a difficult thing to parse out. While I want to say that, to a degree, avoiding certain viewpoints is indicative of a fear of having one's viewpoints discredited, and that people who have a fear of knowledge out to be exterminated, there are many viewpoints that aren't even worthy of discussion. It's up to individuals to determine which they may be, I suppose. But, hey, if I ain't making sense, blame Pabst, not me.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']I always prefer a professor that will tell you the facts and have you discuss what you think about said facts. Unlike the ones who render the textbook completely useless because they don't agree with anything anyone ever wrote.[/QUOTE]


i had a few professors who were very opinionated...i liked that... its not like public school where you have to becareful what you say because a parent might get upset...
 
[quote name='ITDEFX']i had a few professors who were very opinionated...i liked that... its not like public school where you have to becareful what you say because a parent might get upset...[/QUOTE]


Opinionated is one thing. Failing you because you didn't agree is another.

Oh how did I love that disciplinary hearing...
 
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