Veteran's Day

Koggit

Koggit

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DesertEagleXIX's thread got me ranty. It was probably his explicit disclaimer not to disagree with him that sparked it, but it really just made me realize how much I hate Veteran's Day, and the assumptions made about the motives of people who join the military.

It frustrates me that it (joining the military) is viewed as noble. It's just a job. It's a very well paying job with great benefits. Why do we have a day to "stop and thank a veteran" when they just did their job?

There's no "stop and thank a retired bus driver" day. What's the difference?
 
Well paying? I dunno about that. I would say that it's a rather dangerous job, especially when there is a war, and their job is to defend the country when needed. Whether or not you agree with said war, it's still honorable to fight for your country when called upon.
 
[quote name='docvinh']Well paying? I dunno about that. I would say that it's a rather dangerous job, especially when there is a war, and their job is to defend the country when needed. Whether or not you agree with said war, it's still honorable to fight for your country when called upon.[/QUOTE]

It's definitely the best paying job most people can get fresh out of high school, with completely unmatched benefits. Equally dangerous work with lower mortality rates (offshore deck hand and sugar mill core sampler are the two I have personal experience with) pay less with less benefits. Fact is, indisputably, the compensation of the armed services is very good for what it is.

But more to my point: how is it any more honorable than to drive a bus when called upon?

That's just a very specific example, but my point is, what is so innately respectable about "defend[ing] the country" when that's the job you choose to do and are well compensated for? It's a job...

I'm sure some chose to do it because they believe in the cause, but that's their prerogative. Not everyone supports what they're doing. Very few people support our current war, yet if anyone expresses even apathy toward the troops we're looked at as a terrorist.

I guess when it boils right down to it, I just have trouble thanking somebody for doing something that my tax dollars are compensating them for.
 
a group of people defending our country is a noble job, i am not talking about those who are currently occupying Iraq, the men and women of WWII are heroes. Without those people we might all be speaking German
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']a group of people defending our country is a noble job, i am not talking about those who are currently occupying Iraq, the men and women of WWII are heroes. Without those people we might all be speaking German[/QUOTE]

The people who were drafted against their will and then paid, or the people who chose to get paid before being forced to? Which were noble? Or both? I'm not seeing the nobility...


Don't get me wrong -- I'm sure some went in for a noble cause. But you certainly can't believe everyone did.


Let me ask this: How would everyone feel about a Doctor's Day? Thank your doctor today. Why not? I think that's far more noble than forceful defense -- passive healing. Surely many go into the profession to help people (and surely many go in for the money, but hey, that's how these things work). Would that be any different than Veteran's Day? Because I wouldn't support Doctor's Day either. My "thank you" to my doctor is the $500 he gets when I see him for 15 minutes, just like the "thank you" to my brother is part of the taxes that bought his 2006 Civic and 2007 Kawasaki Ninja.
 
[quote name='Koggit']It's definitely the best paying job most people can get fresh out of high school, with completely unmatched benefits. Equally dangerous work with lower mortality rates (offshore deck hand and sugar mill core sampler are the two I have personal experience with) pay less with less benefits. Fact is, indisputably, the compensation of the armed services is very good for what it is.

But more to my point: how is it any more honorable than to drive a bus when called upon?

That's just a very specific example, but my point is, what is so innately respectable about "defend[ing] the country" when that's the job you choose to do and are well compensated for? It's a job...

I'm sure some chose to do it because they believe in the cause, but that's their prerogative. Not everyone supports what they're doing. Very few people support our current war, yet if anyone expresses even apathy toward the troops we're looked at as a terrorist.

I guess when it boils right down to it, I just have trouble thanking somebody for doing something that my tax dollars are compensating them for.[/QUOTE]
I agree the benefits are great, no doubt about it. Compensation outside of wartime is pretty shitty, even by only high school graduate standards. While those jobs are dangerous, I would say they are still quite different. I would say it's more honorable because it's a dangerous position, you have to put yourself willingly in the line of fire whether you agree with said war or not. Why would you express apathy towards the troops? I can understand if you criticize the president or various other people who decide on policy, but the troops are just doing what they are supposed to be doing. I'll put it out there again that I believe that they deserve respect because their primary job is to defend the american people. They would die to protect us. I'm not saying that in this war that they are defending the american people, but like Ikon said, if not for them, it would be likely that we would be speaking German.
 
Anybody that does a job that involves a realistic chance of getting yourself killed for our protection on a daily basis deserves our respect. It's a shame that they also protect the snot-nosed brats that take this for granted.

I never understand this hostile view against our armed forces. You don't agree with the war, fine. Blame the government and politicians who make these decisions a thousand miles away in their comfortable, lavishly furnished offices. But don't take it out on the brave men and women who put their lives on the line to serve our country.
 
You do realize some veterans didn't even have a choice to join the military.

Right?
 
To the above few (except docvinh): please reread what I said if you'd like to discuss this.

1) I mentioned draftees several times.

2) I don't have a "hostile" view toward our troops, I have an apathetic view.

3) I don't hate the war they're fighting, I just don't support it. Don't confuse a lack of support or lack of respect with opposition or disrespect. They're not interchangeable.

[quote name='docvinh']I agree the benefits are great, no doubt about it. Compensation outside of wartime is pretty shitty, even by only high school graduate standards. While those jobs are dangerous, I would say they are still quite different. I would say it's more honorable because it's a dangerous position, you have to put yourself willingly in the line of fire whether you agree with said war or not. Why would you express apathy towards the troops? I can understand if you criticize the president or various other people who decide on policy, but the troops are just doing what they are supposed to be doing. I'll put it out there again that I believe that they deserve respect because their primary job is to defend the american people. They would die to protect us. I'm not saying that in this war that they are defending the american people, but like Ikon said, if not for them, it would be likely that we would be speaking German.[/QUOTE]

This is by far the most rational response, thanks.

I don't know much about compensation outside of war time. I know my brother has more disposable income than anyone I know our age (he's 22) despite being one of the dumbest. I know the reserves, before the war, paid my other brother's $3,000 a quarter tuition (which works out to be about $250/week) in addition to paying him, and the reserves didn't take up too much time for him to still have a normal job. But even if they were underpaid, that wouldn't really matter, because a lot of jobs are. So let's focus on something else.

It sounds like the two components to the belief that they deserve respect is danger and service. 1, their job is dangerous and that deserves respect, and 2, it helps others (Americans) so that deserves respect.

But really, that could be said about a lot of jobs. Lots of jobs are equally dangerous, lots of jobs are equally beneficial to Americans, and lots of jobs pay (compensate) much worse. What's different about the military? My whole point is just this: It's a job. People doing their job are not innately deserving of my respect. Once again, not to be confused with disrespect. I don't disrespect them, just like I don't disrespect doctor's, or bus driver, or school teachers, etc...

Actually, I respect school teachers more, only because they're compensated poorly. Their contributions can be seen as charitable as they're typically quite intelligent with good educations, and choose to go into an underpaid profession because they believe in quality education.

But anyway...
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']this is a joke, right?[/QUOTE]

Sadly, no, it's not. :(

[quote name='dopa345']Anybody that does a job that involves a realistic chance of getting yourself killed for our protection on a daily basis deserves our respect. It's a shame that they also protect the snot-nosed brats that take this for granted.

I never understand this hostile view against our armed forces. You don't agree with the war, fine. Blame the government and politicians who make these decisions a thousand miles away in their comfortable, lavishly furnished offices. But don't take it out on the brave men and women who put their lives on the line to serve our country.[/QUOTE]

+1
 
[quote name='Brak']...

Are you really that stupid?[/quote]

I have a really strong distaste for our mordern day military's brain washing techniques. Their propaganda is so strong it'll cause people who disagree with it to lash out and call the opposing person "stupid".

But I got no problemo honoring these heroes.
washx.gif
 
Actually, I called you stupid because you are stupid.

If you may, for posterity, please point out the veterans in the other picture you posted.

Or was that just some vapid, shoehorned political statement that you were trying to make?

You do know what qualifies as a veteran, right? No?
 
[quote name='Brak']Actually, I called you stupid because you are stupid.

If you may, for posterity, please point out the veterans in the other picture you posted.

Or was that just some vapid, shoehorned political statement that you were trying to make?

You do know what qualifies as a veteran, right? No?[/quote]

the subtitle read this:
"U.S. military police confront protesters during a peace march in Washington, D.C., 1967."

Timeframe fits: "Vietnam - August 5, 1964 through May 7, 1975"

definition of Veteran reads
"...you must have at least one day of wartime service during this period"

They ARE at war in that picture!!! Can't you tell? against the American People!

What??? They have those shotguns there to cuddle them with it? Happy Fun Freedom Time?

Though you may not consider them Vets, I do.
 
[quote name='level1online']the subtitle read this:
"U.S. military police confront protesters during a peace march in Washington, D.C., 1967."

Timeframe fits: "Vietnam - August 5, 1964 through May 7, 1975"

definition of Veteran reads
"...you must have at least one day of wartime service during this period"

They ARE at war in that picture!!! Can't you tell? against the American People!

What??? They have those shotguns there to cuddle them with it? Happy Fun Freedom Time?

Though you may not consider them Vets, I do.[/QUOTE]
So these peace protesters, protesting against the United State's involvement in Viet Nam, are being bullied by the very people whom they are supporting!? :'(

Don't you fucking see it? Throughout the ages, soldiers have been pawns of their government. You think that these Military Police chose to gear up and go break that shit up? That doesn't even make any sense.
 
Not to mention a lot of those anti war protesters in that era were ironically quite violent and doing a ton of illegal shit.
 
[quote name='jlarlee']My question what bus driver position is there that separates you from your family for 3 to 15 months straight?[/QUOTE]

What bus driver position pays so well?

All jobs are not of equal comfort and convenience, which is why not all jobs offer the same compensation.

Being an offshore supervisor for Schlumberger like my stepdad often means a month or longer of being offshore without even seeing land, much less your family, which is why he gets paid better than a bus driver.

Don't be ridiculous.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Don't be ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
What? You mean like comparing bus drivers to soldiers?
 
[quote name='Brak']What? You mean like comparing bus drivers to soldiers?[/QUOTE]

No, like using how desirable a job is as deflection of why it should be considered noble.

How about garbage men, would that make you happier? Would it make you happier if I compared soldiers to garbage men? I'm sure it would. Neither are desirable jobs, both pay well to compensate for that fact, and both are positions that serve the public. Happier now?
 
[quote name='Koggit']No, like using how desirable a job is as deflection of why it should be considered noble.

How about garbage men, would that make you happier? Would it make you happier if I compared soldiers to garbage men? I'm sure it would. Neither are desirable jobs, both pay well to compensate for that fact, and both are positions that serve the public. Happier now?[/QUOTE]
...

I like how you're still oblivious to past wars, where men were drafted to fight in wars.

Yeah; fuck Veteran's Day. Those WWII veterans employees chose to fight in that war.
 
[quote name='Brak']...

I like how you're still oblivious to past wars, where men were drafted to fight in wars.

Yeah; fuck Veteran's Day. Those WWII veterans employees chose to fight in that war.[/QUOTE]

No, that's dumb.

Don't be dumb.

To be forced to do something by law is noble? Jurors are noble because they're randomly chosen for jury duty? Dude.. come on, seriously. Nothing about drafting is any more noble than choosing to serve, and nothing about choosing to serve is any more noble than being drafted. Neither should be given this blanket respect.

Once again, not saying it's dishonorable, but there's nothing honorable about being drafted. They're just doing what they're told. Big deal.
 
Koggit, you're a moron. If you can't see for yourself that saving lives is something that deserves respect then no amount of explaining will convince you otherwise.
 
[quote name='Koggit']To the above few (except docvinh): please reread what I said if you'd like to discuss this.

1) I mentioned draftees several times.

2) I don't have a "hostile" view toward our troops, I have an apathetic view.

3) I don't hate the war they're fighting, I just don't support it. Don't confuse a lack of support or lack of respect with opposition or disrespect. They're not interchangeable.



This is by far the most rational response, thanks.

I don't know much about compensation outside of war time. I know my brother has more disposable income than anyone I know our age (he's 22) despite being one of the dumbest. I know the reserves, before the war, paid my other brother's $3,000 a quarter tuition (which works out to be about $250/week) in addition to paying him, and the reserves didn't take up too much time for him to still have a normal job. But even if they were underpaid, that wouldn't really matter, because a lot of jobs are. So let's focus on something else.

It sounds like the two components to the belief that they deserve respect is danger and service. 1, their job is dangerous and that deserves respect, and 2, it helps others (Americans) so that deserves respect.

But really, that could be said about a lot of jobs. Lots of jobs are equally dangerous, lots of jobs are equally beneficial to Americans, and lots of jobs pay (compensate) much worse. What's different about the military? My whole point is just this: It's a job. People doing their job are not innately deserving of my respect. Once again, not to be confused with disrespect. I don't disrespect them, just like I don't disrespect doctor's, or bus driver, or school teachers, etc...

Actually, I respect school teachers more, only because they're compensated poorly. Their contributions can be seen as charitable as they're typically quite intelligent with good educations, and choose to go into an underpaid profession because they believe in quality education.

But anyway...[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree that teachers should have more respect, plus they do have a teachers day if you would like to thank a teacher.:) However, I think compensation is pretty fair (at least in the northeast) for the amount that they have to work. I'm not saying that they don't work hard by any means, but they do have some time off during the summer. I don't disagree that people doing their jobs should have any special treatment, but I don't think that serving for the military is just any job. I also don't think that being a fireman, policeman, or any position of protection is just any job either. You are putting yourself in harm's way for the sake of others, it takes a certain kind of person to do that. I can respect that maybe you don't go out of your way to congratulate a veteran, but I would at least say that you don't disrespect them like many people did when troops were coming home from Vietnam. That was just sad. Not saying that you in particular would do that, just saying overall.
 
[quote name='dcfox']Koggit, you're a moron. If you can't see for yourself that saving lives is something that deserves respect then no amount of explaining will convince you otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Different respect than doctor's deserve? If so, why?

If you can't answer that you have no room to call me a moron, and if you can answer that you'll be the first person in this thread to do so.

[quote name='docvinh']I can respect that maybe you don't go out of your way to congratulate a veteran, but I would at least say that you don't disrespect them like many people did when troops were coming home from Vietnam.[/QUOTE]

That's a very rational thing to say, thanks.

I don't disrespect our troops, and there are soldiers that I do respect, I just don't assume all veterans/soldiers are noble, honorable or respectable, and that causes a lot of people (as evident from this thread) to view me as unpatriotic or ungrateful. My problem isn't with people who respect soldiers/veterans blindly, but rather with the fact that it's seen as normal to do so.

You seem really grounded, but it also seems like you agree with my stance -- I wish the people who disagreed with me could be a little more rational in expressing their view.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Different respect than doctor's deserve? If so, why?

If you can't answer that you have no room to call me a moron, and if you can answer that you'll be the first person in this thread to do so.[/QUOTE]
I would say that the issue with doctor's is that they are heavily compensated for their work. Not saying that they don't deserve it since they do have to be in school for quite a while, but I would say that it's easy to see how they're getting their recognition.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Different respect than doctor's deserve? If so, why?

If you can't answer that you have no room to call me a moron, and if you can answer that you'll be the first person in this thread to do so.



That's a very rational thing to say, thanks.

I don't disrespect our troops, and there are soldiers that I do respect, I just don't assume all veterans/soldiers are noble, honorable or respectable, and that causes a lot of people (as evident from this thread) to view me as unpatriotic or ungrateful. My problem isn't with people who respect soldiers/veterans blindly, but rather with the fact that it's seen as normal to do so.

You seem really grounded, but it also seems like you agree with my stance -- I wish the people who disagreed with me could be a little more rational in expressing their view.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, people seem to get a little nutty in the vs. forums. :)
 
[quote name='Koggit']Different respect than doctor's deserve? If so, why?

If you can't answer that you have no room to call me a moron, and if you can answer that you'll be the first person in this thread to do so.[/QUOTE]
So you're implying that as long as the end result is the same the rest is unimportant? A doctor who treats the flu in the comfort of a hospital deserves equal respect to a doctor who travels to Africa to treat malaria? A teacher who teaches at a private school for affluent children deserves equal respect compared to a teacher who works with handicapped or disadvantaged children? So even though a doctor, a fireman, and a soldier can all potentially save lives there are certain things that they do to go about accomplishing this that commands more respect.
 
I can say without exaggeration that this is literally one of the worst threads to ever grace CAG.

And since we've survived through lina, Loyalist Shinra, jPod, Regalsin2020, and countless other idiotic posters, that puts you into prime space, as it were.

You should just be fucking thankful we've had countless scores of people go to their deaths so little kids like you can complain about how immoral it all is, because you somehow think you're so enlightened beyond them.

So, can you have an opinion? Yes, but to make retarded comments about how veterans are the equivalent to bus drivers shows that you need to learn some goddamn respect.
 
I like how Koggit keeps trying to draw comparisons.

Like, it's not even apples / oranges -- more like grapes / pumpkins.

Rational minds don't think mathematically.
 
[quote name='Brak']I like how Koggit keeps trying to draw comparisons.

Like, it's not even apples / oranges -- more like grapes / pumpkins.

Rational minds don't think mathematically.[/QUOTE]I think his comparisons make sense.
 
[quote name='dcfox']So you're implying that as long as the end result is the same the rest is unimportant? A doctor who treats the flu in the comfort of a hospital deserves equal respect to a doctor who travels to Africa to treat malaria? A teacher who teaches at a private school for affluent children deserves equal respect compared to a teacher who works with handicapped or disadvantaged children? So even though a doctor, a fireman, and a soldier can all potentially save lives there are certain things that they do to go about accomplishing this that commands more respect.[/QUOTE]

This is an interesting point, and I can see how views differ.

A doctor in a hospital will typically receive more compensation than a doctor in a third world country, and a teacher in a private school will typically receive more compensation than a teacher in a public school, despite the fact that these well-compensated individuals are in many cases doing less to help.

This brings in the determining factor of motive. Surely, on average, it is safe to assume the third world doctor and public school teachers are driven by what's right over compensation. I suppose the ultimate question here then is what do you assume the motive of the enlisted to be? Judging by the enlisted I know best -- I'd say it's the compensation. I personally have a very hard time believing any significant portion of the armed forces are there for selfless reasons. Some, surely, but I'm sure some doctors in hospitals are also there only to help. Just not many of them.



[quote name='Brak']Rational minds don't think mathematically.[/QUOTE]

Just: Wow.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Yes. What does that have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]
I person who thinks mathematically would disagree with you. That's what he means by that.
 
[quote name='dcfox']I person who thinks mathematically would disagree with you. That's what he means by that.[/QUOTE]

I think mathematically, and anyone well versed in mathematics would agree, 0.(9) = 1. Mathematics and physics are my forte. To say someone who thinks mathematically would disagree with me is a rather ridiculous element to bring to this argument.
 
[quote name='Koggit']No, that's dumb.

Don't be dumb.

To be forced to do something by law is noble? Jurors are noble because they're randomly chosen for jury duty? Dude.. come on, seriously. Nothing about drafting is any more noble than choosing to serve, and nothing about choosing to serve is any more noble than being drafted. Neither should be given this blanket respect.

Once again, not saying it's dishonorable, but there's nothing honorable about being drafted. They're just doing what they're told. Big deal.[/QUOTE]


actually jury duty should be considered noble, you are doing your civic duty which is essential for our country. People are held accountable to a jury of their peers, and when done correctly is a very effective system.

you are just looking to be a jackass, obviously you have been wronged by someone in the military, and apparently your life is so unfair and all those soldiers having the time of their lives in Iraq are just a mindless wastes of our tax dollars.
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']you are just looking to be a jackass, obviously you have been wronged by someone in the military, and apparently your life is so unfair and all those soldiers having the time of their lives in Iraq are just a mindless wastes of our tax dollars.[/QUOTE]

Damn, I've been found out.
 
i visited my grandfathers grave today. Its a tradition in judaism that you have an unveiling of the tombstone. He was a World War II veteran. Served the country from 1943-1945. Never spoke much about the war. He never wore a hat stating that he was in the war like most vets do. Government lost his file so he was never given a dime... never complained. Was a good man, lived a good life, had a loving family and he fought for our country. He and other men are honored this day once a year. Koggit before u post something stupid, just think about what are u saying. When you join the military YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR LIFE ON THE LINE..
 
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