What happens to the 99%?
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fatherofcaitlyn
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Yep. Too many commas invalidated any evidence of the US standard of living sinking while other countries are maintaining or improving.
Dr Mario Kart
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Your claim is that the progressive stances on economics/social policy are archaic. I'm claiming that this is incorrect because most of the rest of the world PRESENTLY subscribe to exactly that.
1) What are the rest of the world's policies on progressive taxation?
2) What are the rest of the world's policies on protecting domestic industry?
3) What are the rest of the DEVELOPED world's policies on protecting labor?
4) What are the rest of the DEVELOPED world's policies on protecting the environment?
5) What are the rest of the world's policies on health care?
6) What are the rest of the DEVELOPED world's policies on social safety nets?
1) What are the rest of the world's policies on progressive taxation?
2) What are the rest of the world's policies on protecting domestic industry?
3) What are the rest of the DEVELOPED world's policies on protecting labor?
4) What are the rest of the DEVELOPED world's policies on protecting the environment?
5) What are the rest of the world's policies on health care?
6) What are the rest of the DEVELOPED world's policies on social safety nets?
Trancendental
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As someone who has lived in Australia, they are waaaay socialist.
They also like to drink beer and have fun to a much greater degree then us Americans with our puritan work ethic.
You wouldn't fit in there JPuta. The only thing you would have in common with the poplace is their xenophobia.
They also like to drink beer and have fun to a much greater degree then us Americans with our puritan work ethic.
You wouldn't fit in there JPuta. The only thing you would have in common with the poplace is their xenophobia.
jputahraptor
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[quote name='camoor']As someone who has lived in Australia, they are waaaay socialist.
They also like to drink beer and have fun to a much greater degree then us Americans with our puritan work ethic.
You wouldn't fit in there JPuta. The only thing you would have in common with the poplace is their xenophobia.[/QUOTE]
I guess it's a tradeoff between that and this community's religious bigotry, lemming like love for the government even though inflation is rising and the Bush tax cuts will expire increasing the little guys taxes to, and hatred to point of public execution for anybody rich, provided it is rich through Capitalism, apparently entertainers and people in sports do not incur wrath here.
I am still waiting for somebody to explain to me how they think taking all the money from the rich will raise the rest of the country's standard of living for any real length of time, or what doing that will have on future innovations and business growth?
They also like to drink beer and have fun to a much greater degree then us Americans with our puritan work ethic.
You wouldn't fit in there JPuta. The only thing you would have in common with the poplace is their xenophobia.[/QUOTE]
I guess it's a tradeoff between that and this community's religious bigotry, lemming like love for the government even though inflation is rising and the Bush tax cuts will expire increasing the little guys taxes to, and hatred to point of public execution for anybody rich, provided it is rich through Capitalism, apparently entertainers and people in sports do not incur wrath here.
I am still waiting for somebody to explain to me how they think taking all the money from the rich will raise the rest of the country's standard of living for any real length of time, or what doing that will have on future innovations and business growth?
Taking money from the rich would do little.
Putting caps on executive salaries (all salaries really, just capping the top) by tying them to some percenatage of company profits could help. They leaves more money in the coffers to go down the corporate chain of command, more money to put toward expanding the company etc.
But I do think federal income tax brackets should be back around the pre-Reagan levels to further dissuade hoarding of profits at the top of the pay scale, as well as increasing the tax base to pay down the deficit, improve education and our crumbling infrastructure etc. etc.
Putting caps on executive salaries (all salaries really, just capping the top) by tying them to some percenatage of company profits could help. They leaves more money in the coffers to go down the corporate chain of command, more money to put toward expanding the company etc.
But I do think federal income tax brackets should be back around the pre-Reagan levels to further dissuade hoarding of profits at the top of the pay scale, as well as increasing the tax base to pay down the deficit, improve education and our crumbling infrastructure etc. etc.
Trancendental
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[quote name='jputahraptor']I guess it's a tradeoff between that and this community's religious bigotry, lemming like love for the government even though inflation is rising and the Bush tax cuts will expire increasing the little guys taxes to, and hatred to point of public execution for anybody rich, provided it is rich through Capitalism, apparently entertainers and people in sports do not incur wrath here.
I am still waiting for somebody to explain to me how they think taking all the money from the rich will raise the rest of the country's standard of living for any real length of time, or what doing that will have on future innovations and business growth?[/QUOTE]
You really have no
ing clue what you're talking about.
Australia is a class-based society. Being an American ignoramus you probably don't know what that means, suffice to say that the middle class holds no love for their "social betters". Australia has a subculture of young, perfectly healthy adults who decide to live at the beach off of the "dole" which is essentially permenent unemployment payments from the govt. In schools you are slotted into the role you will fill at an early age and carted away to vocational schools, or if you're smart enough you can goto a state-run uni.
They also still have pictures of the Queen everywhere. The English Queen.
I am still waiting for somebody to explain to me how they think taking all the money from the rich will raise the rest of the country's standard of living for any real length of time, or what doing that will have on future innovations and business growth?[/QUOTE]
You really have no
ing clue what you're talking about.Australia is a class-based society. Being an American ignoramus you probably don't know what that means, suffice to say that the middle class holds no love for their "social betters". Australia has a subculture of young, perfectly healthy adults who decide to live at the beach off of the "dole" which is essentially permenent unemployment payments from the govt. In schools you are slotted into the role you will fill at an early age and carted away to vocational schools, or if you're smart enough you can goto a state-run uni.
They also still have pictures of the Queen everywhere. The English Queen.
tivo
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The whole "look at how great Europe is" is completely ridiculous and is being perpetuated by people who think its "cool" to knock the US and exalt the rest of the world. Socialism is Shit and people like you are dismantling American values and principles. "Social justice" is just plain envy. The "failures of our society" are mere specs of salt in the ocean of our achievements. Protecting domestic industry and labor does the complete opposite. We have been the world's leading superpower because of everything you just mentioned.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='jputahraptor']I am still waiting for somebody to explain to me how they think taking all the money from the rich will raise the rest of the country's standard of living for any real length of time, or what doing that will have on future innovations and business growth?[/QUOTE]
You did see post #33, right?
It isn't so much as taking money from the rich as much as funneling less money towards the rich.
You did see post #33, right?
It isn't so much as taking money from the rich as much as funneling less money towards the rich.
I
Indigo_Streetlight
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Taking money from the rich would do little.
Putting caps on executive salaries (all salaries really, just capping the top) by tying them to some percenatage of company profits could help. They leaves more money in the coffers to go down the corporate chain of command, more money to put toward expanding the company etc.
But I do think federal income tax brackets should be back around the pre-Reagan levels to further dissuade hoarding of profits at the top of the pay scale, as well as increasing the tax base to pay down the deficit, improve education and our crumbling infrastructure etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, so that means executives shouldn't get bonuses when the company is going in the toilet? What an innovative idea--you know, reward based on merit instead of stealing like usual.
Putting caps on executive salaries (all salaries really, just capping the top) by tying them to some percenatage of company profits could help. They leaves more money in the coffers to go down the corporate chain of command, more money to put toward expanding the company etc.
But I do think federal income tax brackets should be back around the pre-Reagan levels to further dissuade hoarding of profits at the top of the pay scale, as well as increasing the tax base to pay down the deficit, improve education and our crumbling infrastructure etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, so that means executives shouldn't get bonuses when the company is going in the toilet? What an innovative idea--you know, reward based on merit instead of stealing like usual.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Supply, not demand. My mistake.
https://www.pnc.com/webapp/unsec/Bl...4&WT.srch=13&gclid=CL2FvuGLx6MCFQXt7Qodblwftw
https://www.studentloan.com/
http://www.chasestudentloans.com/[/QUOTE]
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/block/2010-03-30-yourmoney30_ST_N.htm
http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/new_rules_on_student_loans_100723/
https://www.pnc.com/webapp/unsec/Bl...4&WT.srch=13&gclid=CL2FvuGLx6MCFQXt7Qodblwftw
https://www.studentloan.com/
http://www.chasestudentloans.com/[/QUOTE]
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/block/2010-03-30-yourmoney30_ST_N.htm
http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/new_rules_on_student_loans_100723/
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Afflicted']http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/block/2010-03-30-yourmoney30_ST_N.htm
http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/new_rules_on_student_loans_100723/[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I'm wrong about who you go into debt with and right about the underlying principle.
Why should the government allow people to go into debt before they have any ability to pay it back and give them no option to renege on the debt aside from death and permanent disability?
...
Let's try a bolder step: remove all deductions.
This idea requires an example.
If an individual buys a car, how does it affect his or her tax bill? Aside from a few exceptions on electric vehicles which are grossly unavailable and offer a credit of $2500-$7500, there is no benefit on taxes.
If a business buys a car, how does it affect its tax bill? http://www.ehow.com/how_2002416_deduct-vehicle-cost.html
"There are twelve basic actual car expenses that can possibly be deducted, including depreciation, licenses, gas, oil, tolls, lease payments, insurance, garage rent, parking fees, registration fees, repairs, and tires."
An individual pays with net income. The business pays with gross income.
According to the Supreme Court, businesses are people. So, why the do they get a discounted rate on taxes?
What is the point? When an employee of a business gets a perk such a hotel room, apartment, access to a gym, a car, trips to resorts for conventions, a pizza or anything that costs money, that business is forcing the government to borrow more money or extract revenues from another source.
http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/new_rules_on_student_loans_100723/[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I'm wrong about who you go into debt with and right about the underlying principle.
Why should the government allow people to go into debt before they have any ability to pay it back and give them no option to renege on the debt aside from death and permanent disability?
...
Let's try a bolder step: remove all deductions.
This idea requires an example.
If an individual buys a car, how does it affect his or her tax bill? Aside from a few exceptions on electric vehicles which are grossly unavailable and offer a credit of $2500-$7500, there is no benefit on taxes.
If a business buys a car, how does it affect its tax bill? http://www.ehow.com/how_2002416_deduct-vehicle-cost.html
"There are twelve basic actual car expenses that can possibly be deducted, including depreciation, licenses, gas, oil, tolls, lease payments, insurance, garage rent, parking fees, registration fees, repairs, and tires."
An individual pays with net income. The business pays with gross income.
According to the Supreme Court, businesses are people. So, why the
do they get a discounted rate on taxes?What is the point? When an employee of a business gets a perk such a hotel room, apartment, access to a gym, a car, trips to resorts for conventions, a pizza or anything that costs money, that business is forcing the government to borrow more money or extract revenues from another source.
Trancendental
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FOC, you're asking alot of questions in this thread but you're doing it the right way. I hope UB is taking notes.
[quote name='tivo'] Moore is a big fat liar.
Apparently "the rich" is anyone who makes over 250K.[/QUOTE]
This is Obama's definition of 'the rich.'
By contrast, McCain's definition of 'the rich' was > $5 million.
[quote name='jputahraptor']I guess it's a tradeoff between that and this community's religious bigotry, lemming like love for the government even though inflation is rising and the Bush tax cuts will expire increasing the little guys taxes to, and hatred to point of public execution for anybody rich, provided it is rich through Capitalism, apparently entertainers and people in sports do not incur wrath here.[/QUOTE]
I think the general consensus on this forum is to let the tax cuts expire for the rich (1% of the population) and extend them for everyone else.
Apparently "the rich" is anyone who makes over 250K.[/QUOTE]
This is Obama's definition of 'the rich.'
By contrast, McCain's definition of 'the rich' was > $5 million.
[quote name='jputahraptor']I guess it's a tradeoff between that and this community's religious bigotry, lemming like love for the government even though inflation is rising and the Bush tax cuts will expire increasing the little guys taxes to, and hatred to point of public execution for anybody rich, provided it is rich through Capitalism, apparently entertainers and people in sports do not incur wrath here.[/QUOTE]
I think the general consensus on this forum is to let the tax cuts expire for the rich (1% of the population) and extend them for everyone else.
[quote name='tivo']The whole "look at how great Europe is" is completely ridiculous and is being perpetuated by people who think its "cool" to knock the US and exalt the rest of the world. Socialism is Shit and people like you are dismantling American values and principles. "Social justice" is just plain envy. The "failures of our society" are mere specs of salt in the ocean of our achievements. Protecting domestic industry and labor does the complete opposite. We have been the world's leading superpower because of everything you just mentioned.[/QUOTE]
The attitude that we cannot learn anything from anyone else is equally ridiculous. What are the American values and principles that you speak of? Since we're all evil socialists we obviously have no idea of what you mean.
For the record, systems like socialism and communism don't work not because they're inherently bad, but because people inevitability ruin them. People are greedy and selfish, capitalism works because it plays on these human tendencies, while socialism and communism run contrary to them. To put it simply, human nature is the reason we can't have nice things.
The attitude that we cannot learn anything from anyone else is equally ridiculous. What are the American values and principles that you speak of? Since we're all evil socialists we obviously have no idea of what you mean.
For the record, systems like socialism and communism don't work not because they're inherently bad, but because people inevitability ruin them. People are greedy and selfish, capitalism works because it plays on these human tendencies, while socialism and communism run contrary to them. To put it simply, human nature is the reason we can't have nice things.
Yeah, it's silly to be ethnocentric and think we can learn nothing from others.
That said, I don't really think America or Europe are necessarily better or worse than the other. Just quite different.
As I said, people there work to live, here we live to work. You pretty much have to be a workaholic to be meet the American Dream idea of "success." Life doesn't revolve around money and consumerism in much of Europe to the level it dominates life in the US. Europe has a much great appreciation for intellectualism, the humanities etc. than in the US's Nascar and reality TV culture.
So just a matter of what appeals to you. European culture is much more akin to my liking. I'd jump at a chance to move several places over there if a job opportunity arises.
That said, I don't really think America or Europe are necessarily better or worse than the other. Just quite different.
As I said, people there work to live, here we live to work. You pretty much have to be a workaholic to be meet the American Dream idea of "success." Life doesn't revolve around money and consumerism in much of Europe to the level it dominates life in the US. Europe has a much great appreciation for intellectualism, the humanities etc. than in the US's Nascar and reality TV culture.
So just a matter of what appeals to you. European culture is much more akin to my liking. I'd jump at a chance to move several places over there if a job opportunity arises.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Why should the government allow people to go into debt before they have any ability to pay it back and give them no option to renege on the debt aside from death and permanent disability?
[/QUOTE]
Just so you know "our government" is currently in debt that they don't have the ability to pay back and will never be able to pay back. They have no right to give anyone credit advice.
On the subject of student loans. Do you propose that the government wait till people have the ability to repay the loan before giving it to them? So they should have established their careers before the can be eligible for a student loan?
I think the confusion here is that most loans have collateral. The collateral for the student loan is the career that comes from the education that they use the loan for.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
Let's try a bolder step: remove all deductions.
This idea requires an example.
If an individual buys a car, how does it affect his or her tax bill? Aside from a few exceptions on electric vehicles which are grossly unavailable and offer a credit of $2500-$7500, there is no benefit on taxes.
If a business buys a car, how does it affect its tax bill? http://www.ehow.com/how_2002416_deduct-vehicle-cost.html
"There are twelve basic actual car expenses that can possibly be deducted, including depreciation, licenses, gas, oil, tolls, lease payments, insurance, garage rent, parking fees, registration fees, repairs, and tires."
An individual pays with net income. The business pays with gross income.
According to the Supreme Court, businesses are people. So, why the do they get a discounted rate on taxes?
What is the point? When an employee of a business gets a perk such a hotel room, apartment, access to a gym, a car, trips to resorts for conventions, a pizza or anything that costs money, that business is forcing the government to borrow more money or extract revenues from another source.[/QUOTE]
As for the business write offs... Well it's considered cost of doing business. For many companies the vehicles/etc are something that is required to operate their business and are the same as any product they sell. What you're proposing would be the same as telling walmart they have to pay taxes on every penny of sales they have and can't write off the cost of the product they sold.
Now I'll be the first to admit that there are quite a few companies that abuse these write offs... but you'll find just as many individuals that do the same as well on their personal taxes.
[/QUOTE]
Just so you know "our government" is currently in debt that they don't have the ability to pay back and will never be able to pay back. They have no right to give anyone credit advice.
On the subject of student loans. Do you propose that the government wait till people have the ability to repay the loan before giving it to them? So they should have established their careers before the can be eligible for a student loan?
I think the confusion here is that most loans have collateral. The collateral for the student loan is the career that comes from the education that they use the loan for.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
Let's try a bolder step: remove all deductions.
This idea requires an example.
If an individual buys a car, how does it affect his or her tax bill? Aside from a few exceptions on electric vehicles which are grossly unavailable and offer a credit of $2500-$7500, there is no benefit on taxes.
If a business buys a car, how does it affect its tax bill? http://www.ehow.com/how_2002416_deduct-vehicle-cost.html
"There are twelve basic actual car expenses that can possibly be deducted, including depreciation, licenses, gas, oil, tolls, lease payments, insurance, garage rent, parking fees, registration fees, repairs, and tires."
An individual pays with net income. The business pays with gross income.
According to the Supreme Court, businesses are people. So, why the
do they get a discounted rate on taxes?What is the point? When an employee of a business gets a perk such a hotel room, apartment, access to a gym, a car, trips to resorts for conventions, a pizza or anything that costs money, that business is forcing the government to borrow more money or extract revenues from another source.[/QUOTE]
As for the business write offs... Well it's considered cost of doing business. For many companies the vehicles/etc are something that is required to operate their business and are the same as any product they sell. What you're proposing would be the same as telling walmart they have to pay taxes on every penny of sales they have and can't write off the cost of the product they sold.
Now I'll be the first to admit that there are quite a few companies that abuse these write offs... but you'll find just as many individuals that do the same as well on their personal taxes.
[quote name='Afflicted']Just so you know "our government" is currently in debt that they don't have the ability to pay back and will never be able to pay back.[/quote]
Name the last time the government had zero debt.
Look at all the responses my post at the top of the page received.
The cons around post as if they are all following the sameed up script and y'all might as well as be typing in wingdings.
Do you know that college in this country used to be much cheaper? That students used to be able to receive much more in grants rather than resort to loans?
I don't think "write offs" as they are usually understood was what Foc was talking about, I would reccomend reading "Free Lunch" by David Cay Johnston.
And?
Name the last time the government had zero debt.
Look at all the responses my post at the top of the page received.
The cons around post as if they are all following the same
ed up script and y'all might as well as be typing in wingdings.Do you know that college in this country used to be much cheaper? That students used to be able to receive much more in grants rather than resort to loans?
I don't think "write offs" as they are usually understood was what Foc was talking about, I would reccomend reading "Free Lunch" by David Cay Johnston.
And?
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fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Afflicted']Just so you know "our government" is currently in debt that they don't have the ability to pay back and will never be able to pay back. They have no right to give anyone credit advice.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. However, they routinely give incentives for people to go deeper into debt. If the government stopped rewarding such bad behavior, the savings rate would increase. With fewer people living paycheck to paycheck or having little savings, the need for social welfare would be reduced. Depressions and economic collapses may not be possible. Recessions would still exist, but they might be viewed as extended vacations instead of a period of losing everything from cars and houses to sanity and dignity.
[quote name='Afflicted'] On the subject of student loans. Do you propose that the government wait till people have the ability to repay the loan before giving it to them? So they should have established their careers before the can be eligible for a student loan? I think the confusion here is that most loans have collateral. The collateral for the student loan is the career that comes from the education that they use the loan for.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Why? That great job waiting at the end of college is a mirage. So, they have a bunch of debt and a shitty job they could have been working without the degree.
[quote name='Afflicted'] As for the business write offs... Well it's considered cost of doing business. For many companies the vehicles/etc are something that is required to operate their business and are the same as any product they sell. What you're proposing would be the same as telling walmart they have to pay taxes on every penny of sales they have and can't write off the cost of the product they sold.[/QUOTE]
Congrats! You understand completely.
A person is a collection of specialized cells performing certain actions to survive. A business is a collection of specialized people performing certain actions to survive. The only difference between the two is scale.
However, a business gets to write off its electric bill because "it's a cost for that business to survive". I need electricity to survive. A business gets to write off a corporate apartment because "it's a cost for business to survive". I need a roof over my head to survive. Why can't I get a discount for the things I need to survive? It's just a matter of paperwork.
Before you trot out apples and oranges, the Supreme Court argued businesses are people. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html That's the interpreted law of the land.
[quote name='Afflicted'] Now I'll be the first to admit that there are quite a few companies that abuse these write offs... but you'll find just as many individuals that do the same as well on their personal taxes.[/QUOTE]
Do you want to stick with the defense of "Everybody is doing it."?
Agreed. However, they routinely give incentives for people to go deeper into debt. If the government stopped rewarding such bad behavior, the savings rate would increase. With fewer people living paycheck to paycheck or having little savings, the need for social welfare would be reduced. Depressions and economic collapses may not be possible. Recessions would still exist, but they might be viewed as extended vacations instead of a period of losing everything from cars and houses to sanity and dignity.
[quote name='Afflicted'] On the subject of student loans. Do you propose that the government wait till people have the ability to repay the loan before giving it to them? So they should have established their careers before the can be eligible for a student loan? I think the confusion here is that most loans have collateral. The collateral for the student loan is the career that comes from the education that they use the loan for.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Why? That great job waiting at the end of college is a mirage. So, they have a bunch of debt and a shitty job they could have been working without the degree.
[quote name='Afflicted'] As for the business write offs... Well it's considered cost of doing business. For many companies the vehicles/etc are something that is required to operate their business and are the same as any product they sell. What you're proposing would be the same as telling walmart they have to pay taxes on every penny of sales they have and can't write off the cost of the product they sold.[/QUOTE]
Congrats! You understand completely.
A person is a collection of specialized cells performing certain actions to survive. A business is a collection of specialized people performing certain actions to survive. The only difference between the two is scale.
However, a business gets to write off its electric bill because "it's a cost for that business to survive". I need electricity to survive. A business gets to write off a corporate apartment because "it's a cost for business to survive". I need a roof over my head to survive. Why can't I get a discount for the things I need to survive? It's just a matter of paperwork.
Before you trot out apples and oranges, the Supreme Court argued businesses are people. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html That's the interpreted law of the land.
[quote name='Afflicted'] Now I'll be the first to admit that there are quite a few companies that abuse these write offs... but you'll find just as many individuals that do the same as well on their personal taxes.[/QUOTE]
Do you want to stick with the defense of "Everybody is doing it."?
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Msut77'] I don't think "write offs" as they are usually understood was what Foc was talking about, I would reccomend reading "Free Lunch" by David Cay Johnston.
[/QUOTE]
Nope. I mean everything. I said it was a bold step. The costs of goods will go up or companies will have to give out fewer perks. Of course, the first thing companies will squeeze is low level employee pay instead of retreats to Vegas or executive pay. Then again, there isn't a lot of blood left in the employees.
...
EDIT: The idea is to force spending out in the open. We can put the tax rate at 200% for the top 1%, but businesses can simply funnel perks to favored employees if the current system of deductions is left in place. Shit. Look at the hedge fund managers claiming a capital gains tax rate on their labor.
[/QUOTE]
Nope. I mean everything. I said it was a bold step. The costs of goods will go up or companies will have to give out fewer perks. Of course, the first thing companies will squeeze is low level employee pay instead of retreats to Vegas or executive pay. Then again, there isn't a lot of blood left in the employees.
...
EDIT: The idea is to force spending out in the open. We can put the tax rate at 200% for the top 1%, but businesses can simply funnel perks to favored employees if the current system of deductions is left in place. Shit. Look at the hedge fund managers claiming a capital gains tax rate on their labor.
[quote name='Msut77']Do you know that college in this country used to be much cheaper? That students used to be able to receive much more in grants rather than resort to loans?
[/QUOTE]
I got a little secret for ya...
everything used to be cheaper. No seriously... it used to be
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
Yes. Why? That great job waiting at the end of college is a mirage. So, they have a bunch of debt and a shitty job they could have been working without the degree. [/QUOTE]
Life is about taking risks. If a person decides to take a loan to go to college to hopefully get a better job at the end of it then it's a risk they take. The way loans work a college loan has to have security to get paid back or it would be called a college gift. If you could easily get out of them why would anyone pay them back? Why would anyone give someone with no credit history a loan?
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
Congrats! You understand completely.
A person is a collection of specialized cells performing certain actions to survive. A business is a collection of specialized people performing certain actions to survive. The only difference between the two is scale.
However, a business gets to write off its electric bill because "it's a cost for that business to survive". I need electricity to survive. A business gets to write off a corporate apartment because "it's a cost for business to survive". I need a roof over my head to survive. Why can't I get a discount for the things I need to survive? It's just a matter of paperwork.
Before you trot out apples and oranges, the Supreme Court argued businesses are people. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html That's the interpreted law of the land.
Do you want to stick with the defense of "Everybody is doing it."?[/QUOTE]
Actually you don't "need" electricty to survive.... the roof over your head... don't really have to have that to survive but http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/TaxShelters/HomeTheMotherOfAllTaxShelters.aspx
yes... I agree tho... a business is an entity the have their own taxpayer identification.... but no where did I try to say "Everybody is doing it" was any sort of defence. I said that both businesses and people abuse the tax system writing off things they shouldn't. But I do understand why a business can use certain things as tax write offs.
[/QUOTE]
I got a little secret for ya...
everything used to be cheaper. No seriously... it used to be
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
Yes. Why? That great job waiting at the end of college is a mirage. So, they have a bunch of debt and a shitty job they could have been working without the degree. [/QUOTE]
Life is about taking risks. If a person decides to take a loan to go to college to hopefully get a better job at the end of it then it's a risk they take. The way loans work a college loan has to have security to get paid back or it would be called a college gift. If you could easily get out of them why would anyone pay them back? Why would anyone give someone with no credit history a loan?
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
Congrats! You understand completely.
A person is a collection of specialized cells performing certain actions to survive. A business is a collection of specialized people performing certain actions to survive. The only difference between the two is scale.
However, a business gets to write off its electric bill because "it's a cost for that business to survive". I need electricity to survive. A business gets to write off a corporate apartment because "it's a cost for business to survive". I need a roof over my head to survive. Why can't I get a discount for the things I need to survive? It's just a matter of paperwork.
Before you trot out apples and oranges, the Supreme Court argued businesses are people. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html That's the interpreted law of the land.
Do you want to stick with the defense of "Everybody is doing it."?[/QUOTE]
Actually you don't "need" electricty to survive.... the roof over your head... don't really have to have that to survive but http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/TaxShelters/HomeTheMotherOfAllTaxShelters.aspx
yes... I agree tho... a business is an entity the have their own taxpayer identification.... but no where did I try to say "Everybody is doing it" was any sort of defence. I said that both businesses and people abuse the tax system writing off things they shouldn't. But I do understand why a business can use certain things as tax write offs.
[quote name='Afflicted']everything used to be cheaper. No seriously... it used to be[/quote]
Bread used to cost a nickel, but people made a few dollars a day.
You have posted several non sequitur that you seem to have mistaken for wisdom.
Because it would be a nation investing in its own citizens.
We live in an increasingly high tech world, education and in many cases higher education is necessary to compete, locking people out of a chance at higher education is silly and counterproductive.
But then we could just go along with yours (as seen below) and most other cons dreamworld and have the masses living in tin shacks with no electricity while the 1% gets ferried by helicopter over our heads to stimulate the economy by buying hermes bags and other knickknacks for themselves or perhaps their mistresses.
They don't "just" get write offs they also get massive subsidies.
Bread used to cost a nickel, but people made a few dollars a day.
You have posted several non sequitur that you seem to have mistaken for wisdom.
Because it would be a nation investing in its own citizens.
We live in an increasingly high tech world, education and in many cases higher education is necessary to compete, locking people out of a chance at higher education is silly and counterproductive.
But then we could just go along with yours (as seen below) and most other cons dreamworld and have the masses living in tin shacks with no electricity while the 1% gets ferried by helicopter over our heads to stimulate the economy by buying hermes bags and other knickknacks for themselves or perhaps their mistresses.
They don't "just" get write offs they also get massive subsidies.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Afflicted']Life is about taking risks. If a person decides to take a loan to go to college to hopefully get a better job at the end of it then it's a risk they take. The way loans work a college loan has to have security to get paid back or it would be called a college gift. If you could easily get out of them why would anyone pay them back? Why would anyone give someone with no credit history a loan?[/QUOTE]
There is no security in a college loan. A four year degree has less and less chance of landing somebody a good job. Some degree fields are just doomed to failure. There should be some pressure to go into debt for something with a better rate of return or the free market can decide an engineer should get a 4% interest rate while a dancer gets a 12% interest rate.
Regarding your questions ...
I can easily get out of my unsecured credit card debt. It is called bankruptcy. Why don't I file bankruptcy? It would raise the interest rates on any money I might borrow against property such as a house or car or against my word in the future. In this system, the government wouldn't let people borrow money on the false belief the degree will magically raise their earning potential.
As far as lending to people without credit history, umm... that's the point. They shouldn't receive loans.
[quote name='Afflicted'] Actually you don't "need" electricty to survive.... the roof over your head... don't really have to have that to survive but http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/TaxShelters/HomeTheMotherOfAllTaxShelters.aspx
[/QUOTE]
A business doesn't "need" electricity or anything to survive. As far as the house being a tax shelter, please refer to post #33 and "Strip away the mortgage deduction."
[quote name='Afflicted'] yes... I agree tho... a business is an entity the have their own taxpayer identification.... but no where did I try to say "Everybody is doing it" was any sort of defence. I said that both businesses and people abuse the tax system writing off things they shouldn't. But I do understand why a business can use certain things as tax write offs.[/QUOTE]
Why? Because a business is a business and a person is a person? Not in the eyes of the government. When my employer buys me a pizza, they get to deduct that food as a cost of existing. When I buy myself a pizza, I'll go to prison if I get caught trying to deduct that food as a cost of existing. My GI tract treats the pizza the same.
There is no security in a college loan. A four year degree has less and less chance of landing somebody a good job. Some degree fields are just doomed to failure. There should be some pressure to go into debt for something with a better rate of return or the free market can decide an engineer should get a 4% interest rate while a dancer gets a 12% interest rate.
Regarding your questions ...
I can easily get out of my unsecured credit card debt. It is called bankruptcy. Why don't I file bankruptcy? It would raise the interest rates on any money I might borrow against property such as a house or car or against my word in the future. In this system, the government wouldn't let people borrow money on the false belief the degree will magically raise their earning potential.
As far as lending to people without credit history, umm... that's the point. They shouldn't receive loans.
[quote name='Afflicted'] Actually you don't "need" electricty to survive.... the roof over your head... don't really have to have that to survive but http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/TaxShelters/HomeTheMotherOfAllTaxShelters.aspx
[/QUOTE]
A business doesn't "need" electricity or anything to survive. As far as the house being a tax shelter, please refer to post #33 and "Strip away the mortgage deduction."
[quote name='Afflicted'] yes... I agree tho... a business is an entity the have their own taxpayer identification.... but no where did I try to say "Everybody is doing it" was any sort of defence. I said that both businesses and people abuse the tax system writing off things they shouldn't. But I do understand why a business can use certain things as tax write offs.[/QUOTE]
Why? Because a business is a business and a person is a person? Not in the eyes of the government. When my employer buys me a pizza, they get to deduct that food as a cost of existing. When I buy myself a pizza, I'll go to prison if I get caught trying to deduct that food as a cost of existing. My GI tract treats the pizza the same.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Msut77']Because it would be a nation investing in its own citizens.[/QUOTE]
With grants, yes.
With loans, no.
With this country's penchant to subsidize offshoring any job that can be offshored, it turns college graduates into slaves.
With grants, yes.
With loans, no.
With this country's penchant to subsidize offshoring any job that can be offshored, it turns college graduates into slaves.
[quote name='Msut77']Bread used to cost a nickel, but people made a few dollars a day.
You have posted several non sequitur that you seem to have mistaken for wisdom.
[/QUOTE]
Actually I would say that you're fairly confused with your literary terminology.... I would classify my comments are pure sarcasm.
[quote name='Msut77']
Because it would be a nation investing in its own citizens.
We live in an increasingly high tech world, education and in many cases higher education is necessary to compete, locking people out of a chance at higher education is silly and counterproductive.
[/QUOTE]
I think you're also confusing me with FoC... I never said we should lock people out of higher education... he did. I just stated that people should pay back their student loans instead of being able to bankrupt them.
You have posted several non sequitur that you seem to have mistaken for wisdom.
[/QUOTE]
Actually I would say that you're fairly confused with your literary terminology.... I would classify my comments are pure sarcasm.
[quote name='Msut77']
Because it would be a nation investing in its own citizens.
We live in an increasingly high tech world, education and in many cases higher education is necessary to compete, locking people out of a chance at higher education is silly and counterproductive.
[/QUOTE]
I think you're also confusing me with FoC... I never said we should lock people out of higher education... he did. I just stated that people should pay back their student loans instead of being able to bankrupt them.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']There is no security in a college loan. A four year degree has less and less chance of landing somebody a good job. Some degree fields are just doomed to failure. There should be some pressure to go into debt for something with a better rate of return or the free market can decide an engineer should get a 4% interest rate while a dancer gets a 12% interest rate.
[/QUOTE]
Ah... but as discussed earlier... the free market has no say in student loans anymore.... so the government would have to set the value of the different professions.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
I can easily get out of my unsecured credit card debt. It is called bankruptcy. Why don't I file bankruptcy? It would raise the interest rates on any money I might borrow against property such as a house or car or against my word in the future. In this system, the government wouldn't let people borrow money on the false belief the degree will magically raise their earning potential.
As far as lending to people without credit history, umm... that's the point. They shouldn't receive loans.
[/QUOTE]
I'm really just not sure what to even say here.... People without credit history (IE: students) should not receive loans but if they do they should be able to bankrupt them even tho the entire reason they were able to get the loans were because they were "secured" by the fact that they can't be bankrupt.....
[/QUOTE]
Ah... but as discussed earlier... the free market has no say in student loans anymore.... so the government would have to set the value of the different professions.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
I can easily get out of my unsecured credit card debt. It is called bankruptcy. Why don't I file bankruptcy? It would raise the interest rates on any money I might borrow against property such as a house or car or against my word in the future. In this system, the government wouldn't let people borrow money on the false belief the degree will magically raise their earning potential.
As far as lending to people without credit history, umm... that's the point. They shouldn't receive loans.
[/QUOTE]
I'm really just not sure what to even say here.... People without credit history (IE: students) should not receive loans but if they do they should be able to bankrupt them even tho the entire reason they were able to get the loans were because they were "secured" by the fact that they can't be bankrupt.....
fatherofcaitlyn
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Let's try a different tactic towards bankrupting on student loans.
Let's pretend a person took out debt to become educated in a field.
The person starts working in that field and is gaining experience and will eventually pay back the loan.
Long before the person pays back the loan, the government shuts down that field. Nobody is able to work in that field. Thus, the person's gamble will not pay off.
Should that person still be required to pay back the loan?
Let's pretend a person took out debt to become educated in a field.
The person starts working in that field and is gaining experience and will eventually pay back the loan.
Long before the person pays back the loan, the government shuts down that field. Nobody is able to work in that field. Thus, the person's gamble will not pay off.
Should that person still be required to pay back the loan?
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Afflicted']Ah... but as discussed earlier... the free market has no say in student loans anymore.... so the government would have to set the value of the different professions.[/QUOTE]
The government shouldn't be in the business of encouraging people to go into debt.
[quote name='Afflicted'] I'm really just not sure what to even say here.... People without credit history (IE: students) should not receive loans but if they do they should be able to bankrupt them even tho the entire reason they were able to get the loans were because they were "secured" by the fact that they can't be bankrupt.....[/QUOTE]
Right. You treat student loans the same as a personal loan or unsecured credit card debt. Let's be honest. In our current environment and system of taxation, a student loan has less chance of paying off.
The government shouldn't be in the business of encouraging people to go into debt.
[quote name='Afflicted'] I'm really just not sure what to even say here.... People without credit history (IE: students) should not receive loans but if they do they should be able to bankrupt them even tho the entire reason they were able to get the loans were because they were "secured" by the fact that they can't be bankrupt.....
[/QUOTE]Right. You treat student loans the same as a personal loan or unsecured credit card debt. Let's be honest. In our current environment and system of taxation, a student loan has less chance of paying off.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Let's try a different tactic towards bankrupting on student loans.
Let's pretend a person took out debt to become educated in a field.
The person starts working in that field and is gaining experience and will eventually pay back the loan.
Long before the person pays back the loan, the government shuts down that field. Nobody is able to work in that field. Thus, the person's gamble will not pay off.
Should that person still be required to pay back the loan?[/QUOTE]
Good discussion going on here.
Two points: First, what possible field of study would the federal government terminate? It's far more likely a student earns a degree and is then unable to find work in that field, something that occurs with great frequency.
Second, of course they have to pay back the loan. If someone takes on a loan to start a business which then fails should they have to pay on the loan? Of course. If you can't find work in your field of study go do something else.
Let's pretend a person took out debt to become educated in a field.
The person starts working in that field and is gaining experience and will eventually pay back the loan.
Long before the person pays back the loan, the government shuts down that field. Nobody is able to work in that field. Thus, the person's gamble will not pay off.
Should that person still be required to pay back the loan?[/QUOTE]
Good discussion going on here.
Two points: First, what possible field of study would the federal government terminate? It's far more likely a student earns a degree and is then unable to find work in that field, something that occurs with great frequency.
Second, of course they have to pay back the loan. If someone takes on a loan to start a business which then fails should they have to pay on the loan? Of course. If you can't find work in your field of study go do something else.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Let's try a different tactic towards bankrupting on student loans.
Let's pretend a person took out debt to become educated in a field.
The person starts working in that field and is gaining experience and will eventually pay back the loan.
Long before the person pays back the loan, the government shuts down that field. Nobody is able to work in that field. Thus, the person's gamble will not pay off.
Should that person still be required to pay back the loan?[/QUOTE]
Would that be a socialist government then? In a capitalist environment the government could not shut down a field.
Also tho in a socialist government if they wanted people to be educated in certain fields the government should pay for it.... much like a corporation pays for the education of a worker if they want them to increase their knowledge in the field that the corporation chooses.
But yes... if a person takes a government loan to pay for their education and the government then causes that field to cease to exist then the person should not have to repay the loan.... but it's not quite the same as not being able to find a job in said field.
Let's pretend a person took out debt to become educated in a field.
The person starts working in that field and is gaining experience and will eventually pay back the loan.
Long before the person pays back the loan, the government shuts down that field. Nobody is able to work in that field. Thus, the person's gamble will not pay off.
Should that person still be required to pay back the loan?[/QUOTE]
Would that be a socialist government then? In a capitalist environment the government could not shut down a field.
Also tho in a socialist government if they wanted people to be educated in certain fields the government should pay for it.... much like a corporation pays for the education of a worker if they want them to increase their knowledge in the field that the corporation chooses.
But yes... if a person takes a government loan to pay for their education and the government then causes that field to cease to exist then the person should not have to repay the loan.... but it's not quite the same as not being able to find a job in said field.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Right. You treat student loans the same as a personal loan or unsecured credit card debt. Let's be honest. In our current environment and system of taxation, a student loan has less chance of paying off.[/QUOTE]
I guess the way I see it... if you consider a student loan to be bankruptable like an unsecured loan then all the bells and whistles that go with an unsecured loan will have to fit as well... debt to income, credit history, interest rate, etc. Which would mean there would be a very small chance of a student getting said loan without a guarantor. Even then the interest rate would be astonomical.
I guess the way I see it... if you consider a student loan to be bankruptable like an unsecured loan then all the bells and whistles that go with an unsecured loan will have to fit as well... debt to income, credit history, interest rate, etc. Which would mean there would be a very small chance of a student getting said loan without a guarantor. Even then the interest rate would be astonomical.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='work88']Two points: First, what possible field of study would the federal government terminate? It's far more likely a student earns a degree and is then unable to find work in that field, something that occurs with great frequency.[/QUOTE]
Try the h1b1 visa program. While it doesn't shut down any particular field, it removes jobs from American workers.
For those going into medicine, Obamacare has the potential to drastically reduce the amount of money a doctor can make while offering no protection for student loans. Let's pretend the alarmist are right and there will be doctors who can no longer make a profit. It was caused by government action and no doctor entered the medical field less than six years ago.
[quote name='work88'] Second, of course they have to pay back the loan. If someone takes on a loan to start a business which then fails should they have to pay on the loan? Of course. If you can't find work in your field of study go do something else.[/QUOTE]
No, a business gets to declare bankruptcy. If the business is big enough, it becomes too big to fail and all of us get to carry their water.
Try the h1b1 visa program. While it doesn't shut down any particular field, it removes jobs from American workers.
For those going into medicine, Obamacare has the potential to drastically reduce the amount of money a doctor can make while offering no protection for student loans. Let's pretend the alarmist are right and there will be doctors who can no longer make a profit. It was caused by government action and no doctor entered the medical field less than six years ago.
[quote name='work88'] Second, of course they have to pay back the loan. If someone takes on a loan to start a business which then fails should they have to pay on the loan? Of course. If you can't find work in your field of study go do something else.[/QUOTE]
No, a business gets to declare bankruptcy. If the business is big enough, it becomes too big to fail and all of us get to carry their water.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Afflicted']I guess the way I see it... if you consider a student loan to be bankruptable like an unsecured loan then all the bells and whistles that go with an unsecured loan will have to fit as well... debt to income, credit history, interest rate, etc. Which would mean there would be a very small chance of a student getting said loan without a guarantor. Even then the interest rate would be astonomical.[/QUOTE]
I don't have an objection.
I don't have an objection.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Many states more or less do have free university systems. Get a B average or above in high school and get a free ride to state schools and keep it until graduation as long as you maintain a B average or better. These programs tend to be funded by state lottery money.[/QUOTE]
Link, please.
Link, please.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Try the h1b1 visa program. While it doesn't shut down any particular field, it removes jobs from American workers.
So yeah...."The U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreement and the U.S. – Chile Free Trade Agreement, which took effect on January 1, 2004, created a new class of non-immigrant work visa for Singaporean and Chilean citizens: the H1B1. Only Singaporean and Chilean citizens are eligible as principal applicants. 1,400 H1B1 visa are available for Chileans, while 5,400 are set aside for Singaporean nationals."
source:http://www.h1b1.com/H1B1.htm
If you're banking you're future on a very specific field that services a small number of people (6800 for an entire nation) you should probably consult bls.gov and check out the future outlook section before making that decision. Also, I'm willing to bet that whatever training one has to go through for h1b1 professionals can more than likely be used in a related field.
No, a business gets to declare bankruptcy. If the business is big enough, it becomes too big to fail and all of us get to carry their water.[/QUOTE]
I won't pretend to know how banks recoup their losses from bankrupt companies but rest assured they are not taking huge losses on said loans. There are serious repercussions for anyone, individuals or business owners, who default on loans.
So yeah...."The U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreement and the U.S. – Chile Free Trade Agreement, which took effect on January 1, 2004, created a new class of non-immigrant work visa for Singaporean and Chilean citizens: the H1B1. Only Singaporean and Chilean citizens are eligible as principal applicants. 1,400 H1B1 visa are available for Chileans, while 5,400 are set aside for Singaporean nationals."
source:http://www.h1b1.com/H1B1.htm
If you're banking you're future on a very specific field that services a small number of people (6800 for an entire nation) you should probably consult bls.gov and check out the future outlook section before making that decision. Also, I'm willing to bet that whatever training one has to go through for h1b1 professionals can more than likely be used in a related field.
No, a business gets to declare bankruptcy. If the business is big enough, it becomes too big to fail and all of us get to carry their water.[/QUOTE]
I won't pretend to know how banks recoup their losses from bankrupt companies but rest assured they are not taking huge losses on said loans. There are serious repercussions for anyone, individuals or business owners, who default on loans.
So yeah...."The U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreement and the U.S. – Chile Free Trade Agreement, which took effect on January 1, 2004, created a new class of non-immigrant work visa for Singaporean and Chilean citizens: the H1B1. Only Singaporean and Chilean citizens are eligible as principal applicants. 1,400 H1B1 visa are available for Chileans, while 5,400 are set aside for Singaporean nationals."
source:http://www.h1b1.com/H1B1.htm
If you're banking you're future on a very specific field that services a small number of people (6800 for an entire nation) you should probably consult bls.gov and check out the future outlook section before making that decision. Also, I'm willing to bet that whatever training one has to go through for h1b1 professionals can more than likely be used in a related field.
I won't pretend to know how banks recoup their losses from bankrupt companies but rest assured they are not taking huge losses on said loans. There are serious repercussions for anyone, individuals or business owners, who default on loans.
source:http://www.h1b1.com/H1B1.htm
If you're banking you're future on a very specific field that services a small number of people (6800 for an entire nation) you should probably consult bls.gov and check out the future outlook section before making that decision. Also, I'm willing to bet that whatever training one has to go through for h1b1 professionals can more than likely be used in a related field.
I won't pretend to know how banks recoup their losses from bankrupt companies but rest assured they are not taking huge losses on said loans. There are serious repercussions for anyone, individuals or business owners, who default on loans.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Link, please.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how prevalent this is, but Georgia has the HOPE Scholarship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship
It's got a couple of icky side effects though. For example, if you have a borderline student, do you want to be the teacher that keeps that kid from being able to go to college? Likely not - and neither do any of the other teachers. So I'd say it's likely there's a bit of grade inflation going on...
I don't know how prevalent this is, but Georgia has the HOPE Scholarship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship
It's got a couple of icky side effects though. For example, if you have a borderline student, do you want to be the teacher that keeps that kid from being able to go to college? Likely not - and neither do any of the other teachers. So I'd say it's likely there's a bit of grade inflation going on...
[quote name='dmaul1114']Many states more or less do have free university systems. Get a B average or above in high school and get a free ride to state schools and keep it until graduation as long as you maintain a B average or better. These programs tend to be funded by state lottery money.[/QUOTE]
Yeah we have a state lottery scholarship, it has catches that disqualify people. I never qualified for it because I started school too late.
Yeah we have a state lottery scholarship, it has catches that disqualify people. I never qualified for it because I started school too late.
Yeah, many are fairly new so a lot of people aren't/weren't eligible. And like anything it has drawbacks like grade inflation etc.
That said, I'm amazed at the big debts people rack up for undergrad. Undergrad isn't that expensive if you go to a state school (in state tuition isn't that much most places) and work through college to pay rent (and live with roommates to keep it cheap) rather than taking loans for room and board. I guess a lot of people don't want to work and just do the 100% student thing though. Do that and study hard and you should be able to get some scholarships cutting cost down even more.
Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to rack up a lot of loans for an undergrad degree unless you're doing something like Engineering that requires a degree, or want to go to grad school, med school, law school etc. which also require it.
That said, I'm amazed at the big debts people rack up for undergrad. Undergrad isn't that expensive if you go to a state school (in state tuition isn't that much most places) and work through college to pay rent (and live with roommates to keep it cheap) rather than taking loans for room and board. I guess a lot of people don't want to work and just do the 100% student thing though. Do that and study hard and you should be able to get some scholarships cutting cost down even more.
Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to rack up a lot of loans for an undergrad degree unless you're doing something like Engineering that requires a degree, or want to go to grad school, med school, law school etc. which also require it.
Well for my undergrad I had a half tuition scholarship, some grants, went to an in-state school, commuted from my parents' house (no room and board), worked over the summers (not during school though), and about a quarter of my loans were subsidized federal (no interest built until repayment) and ended up taking out ~$20,000 in loans, which built up to around $25,000 with the interest they charged. I wouldn't say that's a small amount of debt at 23 coming out of college, though it's less than average it seems. I could've avoided at least a good part of it if I worked during school, though probably at the expense of my grades.
That compared to my brother, who went to an in-state school, no scholarships, stayed in dorms for about half, in an apartment with a roommate for the other half, worked throughout school, and got about $50,000 in loans, something around $70,000 I think after the interest (which, like my private loan, got up to around 10% for some time I believe).
In-state schools (in VA anyway) are usually still ~$8-10k or so a semester if you live in the dorms, so you're looking at maybe $15-20k per year for 4 years before factoring in food, gas, clothing, books, etc.
That compared to my brother, who went to an in-state school, no scholarships, stayed in dorms for about half, in an apartment with a roommate for the other half, worked throughout school, and got about $50,000 in loans, something around $70,000 I think after the interest (which, like my private loan, got up to around 10% for some time I believe).
In-state schools (in VA anyway) are usually still ~$8-10k or so a semester if you live in the dorms, so you're looking at maybe $15-20k per year for 4 years before factoring in food, gas, clothing, books, etc.
[quote name='SpazX']Well for my undergrad I had a half tuition scholarship, some grants, went to an in-state school, commuted from my parents' house (no room and board), worked over the summers (not during school though), and about a quarter of my loans were subsidized federal (no interest built until repayment) and ended up taking out ~$20,000 in loans, which built up to around $25,000 with the interest they charged. I wouldn't say that's a small amount of debt at 23 coming out of college, though it's less than average it seems. I could've avoided at least a good part of it if I worked during school, though probably at the expense of my grades.[/quote]
I worked through school and still ended up spending a bit more than that.
Which even in your case is a down payment on a house in most places.
I worked through school and still ended up spending a bit more than that.
Which even in your case is a down payment on a house in most places.
[quote name='SpazX']
In-state schools (in VA anyway) are usually still ~$8-10k or so a semester if you live in the dorms, so you're looking at maybe $15-20k per year for 4 years before factoring in food, gas, clothing, books, etc.[/QUOTE]
$8-10K a semester in-state? That seems super high. In Georgia it's $7-8K a year (around $3,500 a semester full time).
My tuition was around $4,500 a year at WVU IIRC. Of course that was 1998-2002. Looking at the website, it's still only up to $5,400 a year.
UVA is damn expensive I've see--at $10,836 a year currently. Looks like VT is around $7,500. So maybe you meant 8-10K a year rather than semester?
In any case I was lucky since college in WV is cheap, I was able to work and get good grades and earn scholarships etc., so I got out of undergrad with no debt. Grad school screwed that up though, I stupidly eschewed the roommate route (was sick of it after undergrad) for my first few years and took too many loans. As well as having to pay first years tuition (had free ride after that) so ended up with $54K in loans from that. Should probably be $20k less, but oh well. I loved grad school, and it got me a great job and I'm having no problems paying the loans back.
In-state schools (in VA anyway) are usually still ~$8-10k or so a semester if you live in the dorms, so you're looking at maybe $15-20k per year for 4 years before factoring in food, gas, clothing, books, etc.[/QUOTE]
$8-10K a semester in-state? That seems super high. In Georgia it's $7-8K a year (around $3,500 a semester full time).
My tuition was around $4,500 a year at WVU IIRC. Of course that was 1998-2002. Looking at the website, it's still only up to $5,400 a year.
UVA is damn expensive I've see--at $10,836 a year currently. Looks like VT is around $7,500. So maybe you meant 8-10K a year rather than semester?
In any case I was lucky since college in WV is cheap, I was able to work and get good grades and earn scholarships etc., so I got out of undergrad with no debt. Grad school screwed that up though, I stupidly eschewed the roommate route (was sick of it after undergrad) for my first few years and took too many loans. As well as having to pay first years tuition (had free ride after that) so ended up with $54K in loans from that. Should probably be $20k less, but oh well. I loved grad school, and it got me a great job and I'm having no problems paying the loans back.
bread's done