What's killing game development?

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http://www.firingsquad.com/features/killing_game_development/

Very interesting article and good numbers breakdown on the cost of games nowadays. Firingsquad used to be a pretty hardcore place for PC gamers back in the day and was one of the better quality sites, still sort of is which is refreshing that even those guys now see the problem.

I'm going to use the article as a jumping point to ask another question. Would you pay $100 for a game? seriously, this is one area where I agree with Michael Pachter, things can't continue the way they're going and I've both been in and out of the industry. I think they missed a golden opportunity to set the price at $100 for next gen right out of the gate and instead try and nickle and dime/half measure consumers to death with microtransactions and Collector's Edition to make up the price difference which we all know needs to be addressed.

What do you guys think?
 
You know.. I completely understand inflation, and I completely understand the increase in development costs, but it's not the consumer's responsibility to make up for these changes in the video game market. If corporations want to produce games then this is the cost of entry. Should games become $100 retail? Hell no. Well.. I wouldn't buy them at that cost, anyway.

This is an interesting discussion coming on the heels of that chart showing the depreciation of new games after release. Why would anyone in their right mind even pay $50 for a brand new game if you can wait 3 months and get it for $20? Are you that excitable that you must have the absolutely newest game printed to disc? That just seems insane. And to bump that price up to $100, nearly 1/5 the cost of Ps3, 1/3 the cost of x360, and 1/2 the cost of the Wii.. that just seems even crazier.
 
You're definitely right about the depreciation. The problem with games is that unlike other products there's next to no ability to continue to make money over time. The sales window is ridiculously short.

That's why when the big players move to digitial distribution i.e. XBLA and Steam they are also fixing the price and fixing it for as long as they can. Good move imo, there's no such thing as "precious shelf space" nor is it as fickle in the digital world.
 
$100 games would about wrap it up for videogames. If not for PS2 and Wii, the industry would be near dead right now. I don't see why development can't be kept at a reasonable cost/time and focus on quality instead of these bloated epics that bomb unless they're a sequel anyway.
 
the one new game announced that i'm most excited about from E3 doesn't have graphics and probably cost less than a million to make (Echo Chrome) :lol:

I think what's killing game development is a complete lack of foresight. the stakes are huge and companies get screwed when they bank too much on cookie cutter crap with good graphics, long dev time, and a "hey, look at this game, make something like it" approach. More devs and publishers need to step back, reconsider their approach, and come up with newer, more interesting gameplay ideas that don't cost a shitload to make.

that way, they can work up to a game with a huge budget that is sure to blow people away, by building on experience from previous titles. there would be more AAA titles out, less money hemorrhaging failures, and more innovation in the industry.
 
.....Must....not.....make.....obvious pun!

that was close.

On topic, when games are that expensive, I will stick to playing whatever last-gen games are available.
 
[quote name='Graystone']This is the most lopsided pole I've ever seen on cag.[/quote]

You mean poll.

A lopsided POLE would look like this:

GoLitePoleExtender.jpg
 
[quote name='Graystone']This is the most lopsided pole I've ever seen on cag.[/QUOTE]
I got yer lopsided pole right here, pal.
 
[quote name='Surferflames']Publishers and Nintendo[/QUOTE]
So Microsoft and Sony are killing it too? Why single out Nintendo?
 
[quote name='munch']So Microsoft and Sony are killing it too? Why single out Nintendo?[/quote]Because Nintendo is killing not only game development, but all of gaming! Haven't you seen Antitrust?
 
Publishers are killing game development. Mandatory yearly updates of tired franchises that leave no time or money to develop smaller titles, or original IP's.

And the consumers are killing game development. Titles like Okami and Shadow of the Colossus sit on the shelves while licensed CG Kids movie crap games are all Million+ sellers.


I would never pay $100 for a game, no matter how many dufflebags and plastic heads they throw in there.
 
Games shouldn't cost $100 because they shouldn't cost over 30 million to make. If you pay attention in that article, notice how ridiculous the costs are for things like SDK, engine licensing, etc. It's quite simple, really - developing a PS3 game requires you to invest a shitload and hope to sell over half a million games to break even.


This article is the answer to all of your "minigames is all Wii got!" claims - year development with a small team - under $5,000,000 costs, and $200,000 at $40 a pop already makes a profit. Ports are much cheaper and therefore generate more moneys. Duh.


The honest truth is that _WE_ are 'killing game development,' because we do not pay the full price for games, and if there is enough of us, there is an impact - no matter how little. If the world was nothing but CAGs, none of the new companies could survive, unless they had some massive dough to start with.
 
a constant rush to next-gen is what hurts gaming
ps2 development is nowhere near as expensive, nor do they have to waste time figuring out how to use new systems. the industry always flees consoles before they have been maxed out.
But the only way to stop the cycle is to have a system dominate, the way the gameboy, nes or ps1/2 did. Then you have developers able to make games on a much smaller budget.

$100 games is not a solution, but $5 small, easier to develop games certainly is.
 
I'm not going to bother commenting on this any more than with these two words:

Article sucks.

Inflating gaming prices any more would kill gaming entirely. Nintendo is the only company who gets it right: expand the market, lower the development costs.
 
[quote name='munch']So Microsoft and Sony are killing it too? Why single out Nintendo?[/quote]
I don't feel it needs to really be elaborated on, but sure why not..

Minus the wiimote functionality, Nintendo's progression is having a negative effect on the industry. Most of the stuff has been done before, and can be found in clearance bins at walmart. I worry that companies will say "hey all we have to do is make these little cutesy 3 hour games and everyone will eat it up." Sure I suppose you could say they are expanding gaming, but as a gamer, I feel they are hurting things.

Sony and MS might be trying too hard to fight for market share, but overall I still see their effects as more of a positive than a negative. I can't say that about Nintendo. I prefer the approach of "lets build the industry, but give things tot he casual at the same time" rather than the other way around.

I'm sure I don't have to explain why I said publishers. It's just like any oversight committee.

I look at the game industry much like the film industry. Occasionally the low budget indie films make huge profits, but generally you need to show the audience something new and big to make a blockbuster. It may not always been the best, but if it makes money it will help fund the little big planets and Icos of the world.
 
[quote name='Surferflames']I don't feel it needs to really be elaborated on, but sure why not..

Minus the wiimote functionality, Nintendo's progression is having a negative effect on the industry. Most of the stuff has been done before, and can be found in clearance bins at walmart. I worry that companies will say "hey all we have to do is make these little cutesy 3 hour games and everyone will eat it up." Sure I suppose you could say they are expanding gaming, but as a gamer, I feel they are hurting things.

Sony and MS might be trying too hard to fight for market share, but overall I still see their effects as more of a positive than a negative. I can't say that about Nintendo. I prefer the approach of "lets build the industry, but give things tot he casual at the same time" rather than the other way around.

I'm sure I don't have to explain why I said publishers. It's just like any oversight committee.

I look at the game industry much like the film industry. Occasionally the low budget indie films make huge profits, but generally you need to show the audience something new and big to make a blockbuster. It may not always been the best, but if it makes money it will help fund the little big planets and Icos of the world.[/QUOTE]


Minus HD everything M$ and Sony are doing has been done before. You can't pick and choose to take things out to suit your argument and not do the same with the other two.

If anything Nintendo's bringing more people to the dance which in the long run is better for every game company. Most people who buy Wiis are also buying other game machines too.

The biggest problem right now IMO is the M$ and Sony having to one up each other. The 360 was brought out way to early and a lot of people have had nothing but problems. The PS3 was supposed to change the world according to Sony, we know how that has turned out so far. They are both fighting for the minority of the gaming industry and out priced just about everyone else.

Little cutesy 3 hour games? It sounds to me that you are either gullible or ignorant to Nintendo. The old cliches to describe Nintendo are so lame and wrong.
 
See, making money is the exact opposite of being killed.

A lot of developers are starting to realize that next-gen isnt a very good business model.
 
Games should be 40 bucks or under. Unless it has a different controller (Dance Pad, Steering wheel, Guitar.) Games dont deserve to be 60 bucks now. Not even 50.
 
[quote name='Blitz']Minus HD everything M$ and Sony are doing has been done before. You can't pick and choose to take things out to suit your argument and not do the same with the other two.

If anything Nintendo's bringing more people to the dance which in the long run is better for every game company. Most people who buy Wiis are also buying other game machines too.

The biggest problem right now IMO is the M$ and Sony having to one up each other. The 360 was brought out way to early and a lot of people have had nothing but problems. The PS3 was supposed to change the world according to Sony, we know how that has turned out so far. They are both fighting for the minority of the gaming industry and out priced just about everyone else.

Little cutesy 3 hour games? It sounds to me that you are either gullible or ignorant to Nintendo. The old cliches to describe Nintendo are so lame and wrong.[/quote]

It's obvious your comprehension is lacking since I specifically said as a gamer I feel(
 
It IS actually wrong because
a) Your conclusions are factually wrong
b) The reasoning behind the conclusions are factually wrong.

You can believe that 1+1=3 if you like, just an opinion after all.
 
Lol I love the poll, that is why I decided to ask it on CAG ;) See from the business end, Michael Pachter is right but from the developer/gamer end prices need to hit around DVD price.

What I'm surprised to see is that some of you guys went for the middle road which might be be the best compromise after all. PC gaming price is definitely the sweet spot. $30 for me is more impulse than $40, but at $60 I'm already having to trim my shopping list this fall. If anything Bluray/HD might be the game industry's favor if they push prices to $30, or even $40 for special editions people will think "Hey. Maybe I can get a game, it'll last me longer". With the current e3 the way it is (multi day event on the level of the Oscars) and market conditions, maybe gaming may finally overtake movies like everyone's been saying we have *rolls eyes*.

Good discussion guys
 
[quote name='Surferflames']I don't feel it needs to really be elaborated on, but sure why not..

Minus the wiimote functionality, Nintendo's progression is having a negative effect on the industry. Most of the stuff has been done before, and can be found in clearance bins at walmart. I worry that companies will say "hey all we have to do is make these little cutesy 3 hour games and everyone will eat it up." Sure I suppose you could say they are expanding gaming, but as a gamer, I feel they are hurting things.

Sony and MS might be trying too hard to fight for market share, but overall I still see their effects as more of a positive than a negative. I can't say that about Nintendo. I prefer the approach of "lets build the industry, but give things tot he casual at the same time" rather than the other way around.

I'm sure I don't have to explain why I said publishers. It's just like any oversight committee.

I look at the game industry much like the film industry. Occasionally the low budget indie films make huge profits, but generally you need to show the audience something new and big to make a blockbuster. It may not always been the best, but if it makes money it will help fund the little big planets and Icos of the world.[/quote]

In the film industry kiddie movies make the most money on average.

If anything ms and sony are killing the idustry with there high dev ,we are much less likely to get companies "taking the risk" to make original games .

Also what appeals to the average console owner isn't always the same as what appeals to the average gamer
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']It IS actually wrong because
a) Your conclusions are factually wrong
b) The reasoning behind the conclusions are factually wrong.

You can believe that 1+1=3 if you like, just an opinion after all.[/quote]
How is "they aren't making games I like, therefor they are not improving the industry for me" wrong? There is no bias in my statements, nor is it a generalization about all people.


There are no facts in my responses, therefor how can it be factually wrong? Find me something they are doing that I think is improving my gaming experience and you can say I am wrong, but telling me "the facts don't support you not liking them" is rediculous.

That's like saying "hey 90% of people like corn, why the fuck don't you like corn. You are factually wrong to not like corn."

[quote name='itachiitachi']In the film industry kiddie movies make the most money on average.

If anything ms and sony are killing the idustry with there high dev ,we are much less likely to get companies "taking the risk" to make original games .

Also what appeals to the average console owner isn't always the same as what appeals to the average gamer[/quote]

I never said otherwise. I never said average anything. I said me. I also never said sony or microsoft were some all mighty champions for game design. If anyone read what I originally said, I included publishers as the other main problem.
 
It was a bit reactionary on my part, sorry. Qualifying it with "for you" makes it ok I guess.

Harm in the industry on a factual basis is provided by numbers. Developers and publishers losing money on games. This problem is exacerbated to a large degree by what we loosely call "next gen".

Nintendo always has and continues to stick with the same core games they always have. On top of that they are bringing new people into the equation while keeping costs low for both the developer and the consumer.

Even if the games arent for you, I have a hard time believing people calling that harm.

Are the games for you? Maybe not. But the games that ARE for you might not be worth it for anyone to make.
 
Nintendo is killing it because rather than work within the current control scheme and attempt to come up with better, simpler games on normal controllers, they oversimplified game control into a standard that is intuitive at best (Wii sports) and damn near unwieldy at worst (Cooking Mama.) The wii mote is just a cop out--an excuse to make a cheap, underpowered system and a way to cover up the fact that their franchises are completely played out. With the announcement of the Wii scale, they will plunge even further into the depths of greediness by appealing to the lowest common denominator in the U.S.-- women who want to lose weight.

Furthermore, they know they can and have made plenty off their 1st party franchises so they throw out an obligatory "here, get creative" to 3rd party developers who know that Nintendo doesn't really care about them--note the absence of good 3rd party games at their press conference.
 
So were they also killing the industry before with the 64 and gamecube? Or are they only killing it now, even though the grade of software has been similar for the last 10 years, with the exception of new mass media software, which has not taken their focus away from what they normally do.

I would have to dispute the classification of the controls as oversimplified. The software you decide to make for it can be another matter. Count the buttons if you want.
 
High development costs. That's pretty much it. Remember when they could stick a5 guys on a team for 6 weeks to make a shitty game and then charge $60 for it? Those were the good old days.
 
Underpowered, economical machines have basically won every console generation ever.

The industry has survived a lot. I think it'll survive Wii Sports, Brain Age, and Uno.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']So were they also killing the industry before with the 64 and gamecube? Or are they only killing it now, even though the grade of software has been similar for the last 10 years, with the exception of new mass media software, which has not taken their focus away from what they normally do.

I would have to dispute the classification of the controls as oversimplified. The software you decide to make for it can be another matter. Count the buttons if you want.[/QUOTE]


i didn't understand your first paragraph. adding an analog stick was good...?

control schemes have nothing to do with the number of buttons.


[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Underpowered, economical machines have basically won every console generation ever.

The industry has survived a lot. I think it'll survive Wii Sports, Brain Age, and Uno.[/QUOTE]



ohhhhh, so now the industry is fine? I thought next gen was killing it.
 
[quote name='Surferflames']Nintendo doesn't give a shit about my genre of gamer, thus I feel they are hurting things. Nothing wrong with that.[/quote]

I do respect the gonads here. You claim that you are egocentric enough to allow yourself to declare Nintendo hurting the industry, as long as -you- feel left out.

It's far more accurate to say that Nintendo appear to be hurting you.

As a sadist, I'm always glad to know that people are hurt, and that I'm not one of them.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']oh next-gen is still killing it alright. Killing it really good. But one underpowered, cheap console is there to keep everything together.[/QUOTE]


Does that make it a good system? Is it going to satisfy every gamer's needs? Cause I see a few bones thrown to fans of Mario, Metroid, and Zelda and a Wii Scale.


but still, I don't see any refutation of my original post. Does the classic controller make everything okay?

[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Are skyrocketing dev costs the biggest problem in the industry?
(Yes/No)

If Yes, On what platforms are contributing the most to this problem?[/QUOTE]


what do you consider an industry problem? I see a smaller, but higher quality slew of titles from both MS and Sony. Every gen starts out with expensive development, no reason to cry wolf for this one. It gets cheaper as it goes along. There will always be a market for the higher end systems, and Sony and MS have deep pockets to support it. If you think they won't make it through the current expensive period, you're wrong. and there are lots of good, extremely creative PSN and XBL titles coming out, which helps smaller devs gain notoriety and $$$. People are raving about games from Ninja Bee, super stardust, space giraffe, flow...
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']I do respect the gonads here. You claim that you are egocentric enough to allow yourself to declare Nintendo hurting the industry, as long as -you- feel left out.

It's far more accurate to say that Nintendo appear to be hurting you.

As a sadist, I'm always glad to know that people are hurt, and that I'm not one of them.[/QUOTE]

Because companies care what a few internet nerds think, as message boards reflect actual sales trends and consumer preference. That's why Okami and Psychonauts sold like gangbusters.
 
Aside from the RPGs back in the SNES era, the software slate is pretty much the same as it has ever been. Theres a thread for the known releases for the remainder of '07, the very first year I might add, where most 3rd parties were late getting on board. There are still a lot of smaller unknowns, like No More Heroes which is supposed to be this year.

If next-gen is really what gamers want, I dont see how those gamers were ever satisfied with any of the console generations until now.

And if what they want isnt affordable on any level, to the consumer at large, the hardware manufacturer, or to the developer, than thats just tough shit.

Needs will just have to stay unmet, just like my need to owna Ferrari.
 
[quote name='Apossum']Does that make it a good system? Is it going to satisfy every gamer's needs? Cause I see a few bones thrown to fans of Mario, Metroid, and Zelda and a Wii Scale.[/quote]

I probably should keep my mouth shut, but you're asking DMK if making a system that is profitable to develop for from the get go is good for the industry. Yes, it is. Is it good for every gamer? Yes, it is, by collateral.

It seems you feel that the Wii is a piece of shit that doesn't sell, doesn't generate revenue, and doesn't enjoy things that come to consoles that generate revenue. Wrong, wrong, and once again wrong.

Games aren't made overnight, least of all titles that "push the boundaries" of what any system has to offer. I don't know much about Sony and M$ scores, but the count of "big bad" titles on the Wii is: TP, MP3C, SMG, SSBB. That's 4 of the "biggest guns" and you really don't want me to go into other Nintendo announcements.

No system has stuff to keep every gamer happy. Fact is: Nintendo covers a wider range than any "Next Gen" system so far. Where are my Super Paper Mario / Zack & Wiki equivalents on 360/PS3? What about Elebits? What if I want something like Brain Age? The Wii has explosions and swordfights and a couple of GUNS too. But that doesn't matter, because of the Wii Scale.
 
late edit from the last page:

what do you consider an industry problem? I see a smaller, but higher quality slew of titles from both MS and Sony. Every gen starts out with expensive development, no reason to cry wolf for this one. It gets cheaper as it goes along. There will always be a market for the higher end systems, and Sony and MS have deep pockets to support it.

If you think they won't make it through the current expensive period, you're wrong. and there are lots of good, extremely creative PSN and XBL titles coming out, which helps smaller devs gain notoriety and $$$. People are raving about games from Ninja Bee, super stardust, space giraffe, flow...

and to add, those smaller titles, accompanied by fewer but very high profile titles for the PS3 and 360 will help drive the costs down. If anything, this gen will have to last longer to satisfy Sony and MS' goals (consider that the PS3 is supposed to have a 10 year life span.)
 
Why exactly will dev costs drop again? I mean sure, people get more accustomed to the hardware, and there are middleware solutions, but it doesnt drop like the cost of hardware to the consumer does. You still need coders, artists and the like. How much faster are they really going to move?
 
[quote name='Apossum']and there are lots of good, extremely creative PSN and XBL titles coming out, which helps smaller devs gain notoriety and $$$. People are raving about games from Ninja Bee, super stardust, space giraffe, flow...

and to add, those smaller titles, accompanied by fewer but very high profile titles for the PS3 and 360 will help drive the costs down. If anything, this gen will have to last longer to satisfy Sony and MS' goals (consider that the PS3 is supposed to have a 10 year life span.)[/quote]

Right, and those are okay, but WiiFit is a crime and an insult?

Why are you so upset that women (and men) might want to lose weight using a peripheral released by Nintendo? You seem to be just fine supporting flOw, why not WiiFit?

Nintendo launches four big-guns franchises within a year of the system's release. Not good enough? Neither is your double standard.
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']I probably should keep my mouth shut, but you're asking DMK if making a system that is profitable to develop for from the get go is good for the industry. Yes, it is. Is it good for every gamer? Yes, it is, by collateral.

It seems you feel that the Wii is a piece of shit that doesn't sell, doesn't generate revenue, and doesn't enjoy things that come to consoles that generate revenue. Wrong, wrong, and once again wrong.

Games aren't made overnight, least of all titles that "push the boundaries" of what any system has to offer. I don't know much about Sony and M$ scores, but the count of "big bad" titles on the Wii is: TP, MP3C, SMG, SSBB. That's 4 of the "biggest guns" and you really don't want me to go into other Nintendo announcements.

No system has stuff to keep every gamer happy. Fact is: Nintendo covers a wider range than any "Next Gen" system so far. Where are my Super Paper Mario / Zack & Wiki equivalents on 360/PS3? What about Elebits? What if I want something like Brain Age? The Wii has explosions and swordfights and a couple of GUNS too. But that doesn't matter, because of the Wii Scale.[/QUOTE]


The point is, the whole blame game is stupid. business ebbs and flows. my "crisis" with the game industry WAS a lack of titles that reach out creatively, but the PSN and XBL have satisfied that. I feel the Wii has the potential to satisfy that, but right now it's games with Wii control grafted on.

p.s. your game to trump all Wii games is Little Big Planet, just my subjective opinion, so don't bother responding to it-- i don't do item by item comparisons of games.
 
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